Divine Orders

Nyxx

Hrm... how to word this... I understand that the Divine are very very busy people who do wonderful and amazing things for us players and we appreciate all of that. We really do,e very single one of us.  But from a player standpoint I must say it is quite discouraging when every time you join an order, a couple of months later that Divine disappears for an indeterminate amount of time.  Finally find a Divine who pays attention, or actually cares that you are a member of their order and you work your fingers to the bone trying to fill figurines with millions of esteem while trying to get to Demi so you can generate more essence and actually be someone of importance and real worth or value to the order and then that Divine decides to leave the role and focus on other stuff. (that's cool. I get it and again we appreciate it and love you all for it) but understanding that doesn't make it hurt any less, doesn't make it any less frustrating or make us feel any less like our efforts and hard work is wasted.

I don't expect many to understand my feelings on it, people rarely do. If anything I expect a bunch of replies telling me how wrong I am and how all that work isn't wasted and how every tiny thing you do for an order makes you worthy or valuable (it does, but not in the same way...)  *shrug* Just had to express it, maybe someone will understand where I'm coming from.

Kraai

IRE vet in me can just say, that's the works. While the frustration and often times discouragement is understandable, we as players can fill the empty spaces the Divine roles tend to leave. While being a servant wholly is a niche role, we can still carry on through other means even if it leaves a lot to be desired. This can be through sermons or essence contests and it might, from the outside seem worthless, there are a lot of creative ways to close the gap between a dormant God and his/her fellowship. I hope you get to play with your Divine soon, but there is not a lot we can do when they move on to other things, In-game or IRL.

Daraius

That's the nature of these games. Anything you invest in, be it another player's character (divine or mortal), or a guild, or a race, can change or disappear without warning. I was never much for divine orders myself, even back when I played Achaea, but I can definitely empathize with the frustration. Changes to their house system years ago left me feeling pretty burned, since they invalidated a lot of what I'd put into the house and didn't offer me any real recourse. It stinks when RP avenues dry up, but there's no accounting for other players' or admins' actions or decisions.

My coping mechanism is to keep in mind that it's a game, and the only reason to spend any time with it is to have fun. Ultimately everything we do (in the game and in life) is wasted effort unless it makes us or others happy or better. When sources of happiness become unviable, it's up to us to find or create new ones.

Hope that doesn't sound too lectury or cynical. I feel ya.

Nyxx

Kraai said:

IRE vet in me can just say, that's the works. While the frustration and often times discouragement is understandable, we as players can fill the empty spaces the Divine roles tend to leave. While being a servant wholly is a niche role, we can still carry on through other means even if it leaves a lot to be desired. This can be through sermons or essence contests and it might, from the outside seem worthless, there are a lot of creative ways to close the gap between a dormant God and his/her fellowship. I hope you get to play with your Divine soon, but there is not a lot we can do when they move on to other things, In-game or IRL.

 

Told you someone would tell me it's not worthless :P actually yes it is. You cant realyl close the gap between an order and Divine who for all intents and purposes no longer exists. There is no point to doing it, if there is nothing to be gained from it, It's empty, wasted essence that will possibly never be used again... thus no point to doing it right

Nyxx

Daraius said:

That's the nature of these games. Anything you invest in, be it another player's character (divine or mortal), or a guild, or a race, can change or disappear without warning. I was never much for divine orders myself, even back when I played Achaea, but I can definitely empathize with the frustration. Changes to their house system years ago left me feeling pretty burned, since they invalidated a lot of what I'd put into the house and didn't offer me any real recourse. It stinks when RP avenues dry up, but there's no accounting for other players' or admins' actions or decisions.

My coping mechanism is to keep in mind that it's a game, and the only reason to spend any time with it is to have fun. Ultimately everything we do (in the game and in life) is wasted effort unless it makes us or others happy or better. When sources of happiness become unviable, it's up to us to find or create new ones.

Hope that doesn't sound too lectury or cynical. I feel ya.

The entire House system in Achaea being introduced is exactly why I left and moved to Lusternia. It invalidated everything you do, I really don't think they do their players enough justice or are entirely fair to the players who do devote massive amounts of time and energy and work to these games. I've been playing IRE games for around 15 years now and it's always been that way. It majorly sucks feeling like your efforts are wasted and that your hard work to help the admin, the divine, the whatever, to make the game more enjoyable for them, as well as yourself and everyone else, isn't recognized or done any justice at all *shrug*.

It just sucks that's all. I suppose I might not be so bothered by it if it weren't the first Divine (in my current situation) to ever really talk to me, or give a damn that I was in their order or not, no matter how hard I worked for them, losing the first Divine that ever actually cared, well.. as I said.. It sucks!

Kraai

Sorry - I wasn't being clear (on a phone so was being lazy). I had meant, it's not worthless in a sense that others can learn from your experiences, and it can generate things to RP with others about. I don't disagree at all that it feels inevitably useless, and maybe it actually is, but that wholly depends on who you ask.

Lisaera

Just to play devil's advocate, the same can be said of mortals who do a similar thing. We invest time and energy into building up fabulous order members, curating them with hours and hours of little mini-events or other distinct interactions, only to have them vanish. It's worse when they leave for another God or another organization. 

Now, no one should feel guilty for that. We, the administrators, realize that most of you are going to leave the nest eventually, for weal or woe, but I imagine the sensation feels similar to when one of us disappears for a period of time. However, instead of wondering "will they ever come back?" or "was all of that for nothing?" we wonder "was I not a good enough God?" and "did I not make my organization fun enough?" 

Alas, mortal whimsy is more idiosyncratic and harder to predict than @Mysrai, but still we plow ahead. 

I have to echo @daraius and say that this is the nature of the beast. The same way our order members help shape the materials they leave behind, in an often times substantial way, so too do we help shape your memories of the game. Onward and onward to infinity. If and when we decide to turn away from Lusternia, we can only hope that our involvement over the years, as gods or players, has left behind enough of an impression so that other people can keep the story moving forward. 

Nyxx

Lisaera said:

Just to play devil's advocate, the same can be said of mortals who do a similar thing. We invest time and energy into building up fabulous order members, curating them with hours and hours of little mini-events or other distinct interactions, only to have them vanish. It's worse when they leave for another God or another organization. 

Now, no one should feel guilty for that. We, the administrators, realize that most of you are going to leave the nest eventually, for weal or woe, but I imagine the sensation feels similar to when one of us disappears for a period of time. However, instead of wondering "will they ever come back?" or "was all of that for nothing?" we wonder "was I not a good enough God?" and "did I not make my organization fun enough?" 

Alas, mortal whimsy is more idiosyncratic and harder to predict than @Mysrai, but still we plow ahead. 

I have to echo @daraius and say that this is the nature of the beast. The same way our order members help shape the materials they leave behind, in an often times substantial way, so too do we help shape your memories of the game. Onward and onward to infinity. If and when we decide to turn away from Lusternia, we can only hope that our involvement over the years, as gods or players, has left behind enough of an impression so that other people can keep the story moving forward. 

I can tell you this, @Lisaera if you were poor Gods, we wouldn't be nearly as upset when you leave. Jeez I quite literally -cried- when I read that @Isune is leaving. there is no way someone would cry in real life over something that happened with a God in a game if we didn't care. And we don't just wonder if the God will come back or if it was for nothing.. we.. or at least I... Wonder if there was something wrong with us, if we didnt work hard enough for the Order, if there was something else we could have done to keep them around. 

I never really imagined a Divine would be that upset when someone leaves an Order, its actually kind of comforting to hear that. I've never really thought they cared, @Isune was quite literally the first divine to ever care that I was in her Order or notice that I worked hard for the Order. (or at least the first to let me know that she noticed, it's possible the other orders i've been in noticed, I just didn't know the Divine had noticed because they never really interacted with me.)

Tarkenton

I've only ever dipped a toe into divine interactions, mostly because the few that actually interest me on an ooc level were always in Mag, and I've yet to main a character there.

However, with Manny showing up in Glom, I finally have a traitor to call my own. So maybe I'll finally get what the big deal is.

Ayisdra

In addition to what others have said, you also must take in account that playing a god is not the main role the Divine do. First and foremost (at least how it has been presented to us) is doing behind the scenes work. Playing a god role is the 'reward' the divine get for all their hard work. Given what people like @mysrai said that gods must earn their realms with many months of work (and not just have enough essence like we all thought) shows just how much work they do.
 

Tarkenton

Man... Interacting withus ungrateful jerks is their reward? I think someone's getting gypped xD

Nyxx

Ayisdra said:

In addition to what others have said, you also must take in account that playing a god is not the main role the Divine do. First and foremost (at least how it has been presented to us) is doing behind the scenes work. Playing a god role is the 'reward' the divine get for all their hard work. Given what people like @mysrai said that gods must earn their realms with many months of work (and not just have enough essence like we all thought) shows just how much work they do.
 

Thats part of why it's so sad Ayisdra when they do leave, you know how hard they have worked for that role and that "reward" to play the Divine role and RP with the players. It's not just sadness for myself I feel, its sadness for all the Players and in fact sadness for the divine themselves, they may be ok with Leaving, for whatever reason, but that doesnt mean it's going to be easy for them to go, I'm sure they don't like having to do it and it probably upsets them as well and I feel sympathy for them for that

Isluna

Well love, I hope that you don't get too bitter on it, and get the chance to experience the little joys an Order can offer once again in the future.

And help a new god/dess in the future be able to provide positive feed back to their Order members though interactions. Remember as was pointed out, gods/players alike face the 'am I good enough' 'am I wasting my time and effort' questions as well when people vanish. It simply can't be helped in some cases in others.. Well life is life and it is not fair to everyone.

I am sorry it is something that has upset you though, and I hope you take a deep breath and wish Isune good luck. She is the first Goddess I ever interacted with, and I will miss all the fun miss-says that happened on the rare occasions I and Her were in the same room.

Nyxx

Isluna said:

Well love, I hope that you don't get too bitter on it, and get the chance to experience the little joys an Order can offer once again in the future.

And help a new god/dess in the future be able to provide positive feed back to their Order members though interactions. Remember as was pointed out, gods/players alike face the 'am I good enough' 'am I wasting my time and effort' questions as well when people vanish. It simply can't be helped in some cases in others.. Well life is life and it is not fair to everyone.

I am sorry it is something that has upset you though, and I hope you take a deep breath and wish Isune good luck. She is the first Goddess I ever interacted with, and I will miss all the fun miss-says that happened on the rare occasions I and Her were in the same room.

Don't mistake me. I do wish Isune lots of luck in the future. she is a very loved Divine. and no, I wont let it stop me from being part of an order. I also don't intend on leaving Her order until we are flat out told that Isune is -never- coming back. 

Estarra

Isluna said:

And help a new god/dess in the future be able to provide positive feed back to their Order members though interactions. Remember as was pointed out, gods/players alike face the 'am I good enough' 'am I wasting my time and effort' questions as well when people vanish. It simply can't be helped in some cases in others.. Well life is life and it is not fair to everyone.

Admin retire/take breaks for all the obvious reasons, so yes life is life and sometimes it's easy to forget that those behind divine roles are human.

I will stress that "positive feedback" keeps both new and old gods active. Conversely, abandonment, denigration and constant thwarting of a god (esp in his/her own org) takes its toll as well. It amazes me when an org regularly abuses and foulmouths gods then seems mystified as to why there is little divine activity in their org!

Nyxx

Estarra said:

Isluna said:

And help a new god/dess in the future be able to provide positive feed back to their Order members though interactions. Remember as was pointed out, gods/players alike face the 'am I good enough' 'am I wasting my time and effort' questions as well when people vanish. It simply can't be helped in some cases in others.. Well life is life and it is not fair to everyone.

Admin retire/take breaks for all the obvious reasons, so yes life is life and sometimes it's easy to forget that those behind divine roles are human.

I will stress that "positive feedback" keeps both new and old gods active. Conversely, abandonment, denigration and constant thwarting of a god (esp in his/her own org) takes its toll as well. It amazes me when an org regularly abuses and foulmouths gods then seems mystified as to why there is little divine activity in their org!

Here is some positive feedback then @Estarra. WE LOVE ISUNE! DON'T LET HER LEAVE! SHE IS AWESOME! :P 

I'm kind of amazed at how people can be rude and foulmouthed to the Divine in general. even from an RP point they STILL deserve insane amounts of respect and should be treated with that same respect, it is NEVER ok to be rude or disrespectful or foulmouthed to one of the Divine, RP or not, opposing Org or same org, doesnt matter. They should all be treated with the respect they are due, they do SO much for us! ALL of us, not just those who happen to reside within their Orgs.

Ayisdra

Estarra said:

Isluna said:

And help a new god/dess in the future be able to provide positive feed back to their Order members though interactions. Remember as was pointed out, gods/players alike face the 'am I good enough' 'am I wasting my time and effort' questions as well when people vanish. It simply can't be helped in some cases in others.. Well life is life and it is not fair to everyone.

Admin retire/take breaks for all the obvious reasons, so yes life is life and sometimes it's easy to forget that those behind divine roles are human.

I will stress that "positive feedback" keeps both new and old gods active. Conversely, abandonment, denigration and constant thwarting of a god (esp in his/her own org) takes its toll as well. It amazes me when an org regularly abuses and foulmouths gods then seems mystified as to why there is little divine activity in their org!

I think you underestimate how passionate some of us can get about the game.

Shaddus

Lisaera said:

Just to play devil's advocate, the same can be said of mortals who do a similar thing. We invest time and energy into building up fabulous order members, curating them with hours and hours of little mini-events or other distinct interactions, only to have them vanish. It's worse when they leave for another God or another organization. 

Sometimes I feel worried about this my own self. Do gods ever get angry if I don't log into my member of their order, that they had plans for? It's not like they're going to send a message to my other character and say, "Hey, log into Soandso sometime soon so we can chill out".


Sometimes I wish they would. I know it won't happen, but it would make me grin to no end.

Shaddus

And if @Isune is actually stepping down, I hope she knows she was one of the most interesting divine I've ever had the pleasure of getting to know. Thank you.

Xenthos

Isune is leaving? This makes me sad, I thought she was an absolutely amazing RPer and the interactions between her and Shikari were always very well done. We will miss you, Isune. Good luck with your next endeavors!

Zyphora

It's hard to know what to say, except to echo everyone else's positive sentiments. It was a good run, @Isune! More than good. I can't help but think of what I learned in the Girl Scouts, to "always leave a place better than you found it." For a lot of other players and me, clearly, Lusternia became a better, brighter, and more beautiful place because of you. Good-bye, Isune! Until next time! Thank you for everything you've done, both before and behind the scenes -- all the grand things and all the little things and everything in between. Good luck, I already miss you, and I love you!

Stratas

Every interaction I've ever personally had with a Divine has been one of the most badass RP moments in my playing experience. Mostly because they're all so good at it they can carry the weight for my being terrible, and still turn it into an amazing experience. 

But they leave. They have to, of course, and that's one of the realities behind it all. The admin are people too, with lives and kids and jobs and personal troubles, and they invest a lot of time and effort into a job where they're paid, as I understand it, with warm fuzzies and goodwill, and as a reward (?) for their burdens they get to indulge in a little RP again. I've no doubt every one thinks it worth it, or they wouldn't do it in the first place, but it's not a surprise that sometimes they move on.

It's no less sad for us, though. I quit two years ago for a number of reasons, but a large part of it was the Divine. Eventru left, Zvoltz left, Viravain wasn't really a thing, and... well, Mysrai was around and being awesome, but she had much better and more entertaining order members. It was disheartening all around. Because that's the kind of impact you guys have.

And it is wasted, at least in a practical sense. Especially when a god flat out dies like Elostian or Lyreth/Eventru or others who were before my time. All that order work, poof for everybody. Hopefully the sentiment is enough. I had good times, and I would gladly do it all again. Hopefully they feel likewise. Hopefully Eventru's player can look back on his bounty of experience, remember silly things like Tomir begging Him to override the Fates and let Tomir marry his cousin while pointing out the Nightshades do it (I even dredged up Meridian and Amberle! He was not swayed), and he at least gets a chuckle.

It's also, and certainly no offense to anyone here, disconcerting when a new player takes over for an old Divine. I know @Isune threw a lot of people for a loop when she came back and moved straight to Halli. But even if it's not something that drastic, it's still a new player behind the mask (can an admin retire, and then come back years later and start up again?) Zvoltz is coming back I guess, and I'm excited about that, but... is he the same? Is he going to run his order differently? Will senpai finally notice me?

Anyways. Tl;dr is you guys are all awesome, and that makes for a very bittersweet situation. But still worth it.

Elanorwen

Zyphora said:

It's hard to know what to say, except to echo everyone else's positive sentiments. It was a good run, @Isune! More than good. I can't help but think of what I learned in the Girl Scouts, to "always leave a place better than you found it." For a lot of other players and me, clearly, Lusternia became a better, brighter, and more beautiful place because of you. Good-bye, Isune! Until next time! Thank you for everything you've done, both before and behind the scenes -- all the grand things and all the little things and everything in between. Good luck, I already miss you, and I love you!

When I came to Hallifax and @Isune's order, I was an angry person that couldn't behave properly if her life depended on it. If it weren't for Her, I'd have probably left by now... and been a much angrier person. Wherever your life takes you, @Isune, know that I will be forever grateful for what you did to make a better person of me. I know I didn't make it easy on you, but that never seemed to stop you. Thank you, and know that you will always have a special place in many of our hearts.

Siam

Lisaera said:

Just to play devil's advocate, the same can be said of mortals who do a similar thing. We invest time and energy into building up fabulous order members, curating them with hours and hours of little mini-events or other distinct interactions, only to have them vanish. It's worse when they leave for another God or another organization. 

Now, no one should feel guilty for that. We, the administrators, realize that most of you are going to leave the nest eventually, for weal or woe, but I imagine the sensation feels similar to when one of us disappears for a period of time. However, instead of wondering "will they ever come back?" or "was all of that for nothing?" we wonder "was I not a good enough God?" and "did I not make my organization fun enough?" 

Alas, mortal whimsy is more idiosyncratic and harder to predict than @Mysrai, but still we plow ahead. 

I have to echo @daraius and say that this is the nature of the beast. The same way our order members help shape the materials they leave behind, in an often times substantial way, so too do we help shape your memories of the game. Onward and onward to infinity. If and when we decide to turn away from Lusternia, we can only hope that our involvement over the years, as gods or players, has left behind enough of an impression so that other people can keep the story moving forward. 

Just to add to Lisaera's point re: divine investment on mortals: I can't help but purse my lips at some players who tend to be given 1.) avatar 2.) cults and so on and then BAM. They just leave. They join a new order, they get these things again and then BAM. The cycle repeats itself. I can only imagine how a divine feels when players do that. As someone who has never gotten yet continuously pine for these things, I admit that I may never be able to see things from the perspective of the players who do this.

I guess that's just how it works.

Mysrai

It's a not-insubstantial amount of work and writing to put a cult into place, yes. That is part of why it is expensive.

Tau

I want to point out how rewarding it is when you stay devoted to a particular divine, despite knowing or believing them to be gone. @Nocht in particular announced he would be appointing an Order Head almost 8 real months ago, and there's loads of folks that will tell you I practically pulled my hair out waiting for Him.

But then the reward of, "Hello, little one." comes through and makes it all worth it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is you just gotta have faith.

Rancoura

I'll second what @Tau said. As the second (or first, I might be remembering incorrectly) member to have ever been inducted into my particular Divine's Order something like 6.5 years ago, dedication goes a long way - especially when they poof and then come back and appreciate (and sometimes reward!) your loyalty.

Tarkenton

Alternatively, just don't join one.  Was my MO on Tark for the longest time, and some days, I think I should've stuck with it.

Saran

Yeah, I haven't climbed all that high but I've been in orders til they've exploded.

I really loved the leadup to the Elcyrion-Lacostian fusion dance event because Elcyrion's remaining order members actually had some small events showing that he was in some kinda trouble. And then when he died we all got to keep our order items, which was really cool.

I kinda wish orders could be reworked a bit though, so that maintaining them without an active Elder is something that is a bit more feasible (based on player behaviour as opposed to strict mechanics).

Though, I am a bit of a fan of the Sect system theory from MKO.

Nyxx

Isn't it a normal thing for people to keep their order items when they leave an order? I know Nyxx still has her order item from @Nocht 's order. (She cherishes it too! if I'd known at the time that it was allowed in Hallifax to be in another divines order I never woulda left His order but hey Isune is awesomesauce too!)

Manteekan

It is up to the Divine. We have the capability to take it away if we wish, and in some cases where people leave on bad terms, that is usually the case.