Warrior Overhaul Testing

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  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,623 Transcendent
    edited October 2015
    Well, I mean with a custom beast and spurs it doesn't mean anything, but that's a lot of credits to expect out of every cavalier. It's already hard to dismount them in-room but lots of things are a nightmare if you didn't make that investment - druids, pits, a lot of group separation etc.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    Agreed, but you have to balance assuming the absolute most. Otherwise we wind up back where we were pre overhaul with some people doing no damage and others three shotting them.
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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,971 Transcendent
    As Rivius said, it is already very hard to dismount in-room.  Forced movement ditches it though (and that's the part I'm referencing).  I think it is possible to provide a bonus that compensates for the potential penalty that isn't "no damage" vs. "3 hits" though.

    The other option would be to just make Muster eq-free and give balance-free vault to all Cavaliers (though I'm not sure how plausible that is since a bunch of us bought the arty for that purpose).  That'd be the way of addressing the issue from the other side, at least.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    The question is if you are facing a class that can't force movement ditch, what justification is there to have a bonus against them because another class can? It's just poor design from a balance perspective, introduces an unnecessary variable.

    Balance free vault/muster is fine with me. Artifacts are subject to change without notice yadda yadda yadda.
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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,971 Transcendent
    Celina said:
    The question is if you are facing a class that can't force movement ditch, what justification is there to have a bonus against them because another class can? It's just poor design from a balance perspective, introduces an unnecessary variable.

    Balance free vault/muster is fine with me. Artifacts are subject to change without notice yadda yadda yadda.
    Everyone can force movement ditch, though... it's an enchantment.

    I'd just like to see one way or the other, either remove the penalty or provide a small bonus to account for it.  That's all! :)
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    Oh pft. I mean a real one that isn't "spam gust and accomplish nothing." Pits, aqua demesnes, etc.
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  • IeptixIeptix Member, Moderator, Gods Posts: 819 Divine
    I'm not sure what you're referring to in regards to "remove the penalty", @Xenthos. Currently being mounted or otherwise has no effect on cavalier efficiency, aside from the handful of abilities that require you to be mounted (none of which are related to strikes/modifiers). Am I just being extraordinarily dense about something?
    7c95dbc25a4a9ae292cccb899a49a79b18529207e135ebccd89c0877d386ebea
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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,971 Transcendent
    It is the fact that those abilities require you to be mounted in order to use them; none of the other skillsets have limitations based on an external object (they require only the weapon in your inventory, and provide Gripping to ensure that you can't lose it).  Without the mount, you're at a disadvantage comparatively.  You do not have your full arsenal available to you, and I consider that itself to be a penalty.
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  • IeptixIeptix Member, Moderator, Gods Posts: 819 Divine
    At a glance, the only abilities requiring being mounted are steedcharge, pincharge, obstruct, joust, and maul. Joust, as best as I can see, is purely a flavour thing. Steedcharge, pincharge, and obstruct are combat utility (force movement/stun, forced movement/impale, blocking) that the other specs don't really have anything comparable to, so the mounted requirement seems fair enough to me.  I'm not opposed to e.g. removing muster's equilibrium cost, but I don't buy the argument that Cavaliers are disadvantaged compared to the other specs without those extra abilities; rather, they're comparatively more powerful than the other specs with the mount-only abilities.
    7c95dbc25a4a9ae292cccb899a49a79b18529207e135ebccd89c0877d386ebea
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  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me. Member Posts: 1,612 Transcendent
    Cause they're not a real weakness, like low con.
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  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 786 Mythical
    I know I've just been an ass and taken pot-shots at the overhaul, so a little constructive criticism.

    Remove calcise/dendroxin (replace if you wish with some non-ice aff).

    Keeping ice cured poisons means:
    Warriors will always use those poisons to build wounds. (not necessarily a problem, but boring)
    Victims of warriors will always have those affs stuck on them if they want to cure wounds. (definitely a problem when that means constant broken legs/arms)

    Removing calcise/dendroxin means:
    We can balance ice speed around standard wound rates
    Warriors will be able to choose which venoms to use.

    Would like to see this implemented so that we can fix the ice curing speed.  I see warriors in the overhaul arena as basically broken ATM.
    Hit me up if you'd like to test!
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,623 Transcendent
    edited January 2016
    That could sorta work, but doesn't solve the problem elegantly. You're best moving back to wounds being cured by healing potion and keeping ice affs separate on ice. This would avoid needing to change those poisons (1), avoids future problematic interactions with ice affs from non-warrior/monks (2), and allows you to give ice affs a lot more liberally all around. That's probably the healthiest design decision long term imo. It also just allows us to simplify figuring out the right cure rates for both ice affs and wounds.
  • NienlaNienla Member Posts: 272 Expert
    I technically don't mind wounds being cured by health as it forced folks to choose between building wounds or curing the damage caused by the warrior. Part of the problem though is health is so high for some folks so the damage part is inconsequential and you can just focus on applying health to wounds.

    Ice-cured toxins would probably lead exactly to what @Ciaran said with warriors not using anything besides calcise and dendroxin in order to effectively build wounds.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    To be fair, that's not how it works currently and I don't think it it's going to, or really should change. I like the current set up of warriors choosing between wounding or giving afflictions and the ice balance speed is set up where you can definitely build if not hindered. I don't know that calcise/dendroxin will really pose issues during an actual fight with hindering going on, but I may be wrong. I also don't think it's really been tested thoroughly due to lack of systems able to cure it so who knows.



    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 592 Gifted
    edited January 2016
    Current demonstration numbers show you'll need to avoid taking hits or the warrior will demolish you.

    2 wounds a hit with give or take, 25% chance of each poison hitting base (roughly). These afflictions will stop attacking and/or moving, so they have some priority on them. The warrior could go mass dendroxin and you won't have much counter offensive if stance/parry don't save you.  So basically, needs more stance/parry/etc. 

    Working on patch for testing more thoroughly though (and converting a parry/stancer over).

    Note/Edit: Keep in mind if wounding builds, these are also delayed cures, so you spend more and more of the fight unable to do so.
  • FarlarisFarlaris Member Posts: 41 Inept
    So wait you can just do strike target la pinarm and it'll do pinarm?
  • MarcellaMarcella Member Posts: 1,231 Transcendent
    yep
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  • FarlarisFarlaris Member Posts: 41 Inept
    Do you have to do the wounds first though?
  • MarcellaMarcella Member Posts: 1,231 Transcendent
    yep
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  • KregarnKregarn Member Posts: 34 Capable
    Nienla said:
    I technically don't mind wounds being cured by health as it forced folks to choose between building wounds or curing the damage caused by the warrior. Part of the problem though is health is so high for some folks so the damage part is inconsequential and you can just focus on applying health to wounds.

    Ice-cured toxins would probably lead exactly to what @Ciaran said with warriors not using anything besides calcise and dendroxin in order to effectively build wounds.
    So, this seems to have been predicted pretty thoroughly.
  • MarcellaMarcella Member Posts: 1,231 Transcendent
    The problem is, it's literally the ONLY way to build wounds. If you fail poison procs a couple times suddenly someone's 100% cured
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    Marcella said:
    The problem is, it's literally the ONLY way to build wounds. If you fail poison procs a couple times suddenly someone's 100% cured
    This is not accurate. Synkarin was completely capable of building wounds on me and all I did was straight apply spam. I was critical and heavy on multiple parts before the arena timed out. Now, I was not hindering (what little hindering TK pyros have), but I was also prone because I did not cure broken legs because I just applied. If I had cured the broken legs he would have built wounds even faster, the only question being if my hindering would have offset that. I don't believe so based on my knowledge of hindering a pyro is capable of that actually works with my kill method.

    Insert snarky quote about not posting false information. See, it happens to all of us. 
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  • MarcellaMarcella Member Posts: 1,231 Transcendent
    I've been warrioring in actual combat while being hindered and that's my experience with people moving rooms/attacking you back.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    edited February 2016
    Woa, you can't build an offense when people run away? Sounds like specifically a warrior/wounds problem, and not at all what everyone has to deal with. Mind blown.

    edit: Based on what I've seen with Synkarin, unless you play a class that has heavy hindering built into their kill conditions (monks, Celestines, some of the guilds with strong hindering passives), a warrior can absolutely build wounds on you. So against bards, some mages (aeros, pyros), etc, they have an advantage. Against others, they are at a disadvantage. This is exactly how warriors worked before, incidentally.

    Not being able to cure wounds on a running target does not mean you cannot build wounds. It means the target ran away.

    edit2: Hew as axelord. No idea if this varies between spec, but if the wounding formulas are flat (and they should be), it shouldn't be any different.
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  • KregarnKregarn Member Posts: 34 Capable
    See, you had broken limbs and likely with poison use. The only way we are going to be able to build those wounds is with those poisons. When we first started this, I hopped in the arena with Crek (who wasn't doing anything but curing) and Leolamins (who was fighting back) and Narynth (who was learning the new system) and I could not build wounds on any of them. I was using Senso/mantakaya, dulak/mantakaya poison combinations as a BC. Even with limb breaks that BC has AND brokenskull which has a stupidity effect, there was no way I could get to critical. They'd get a little bit behind at times, sure, but never to the point that I could get to a kill condition.

    Now, if I DO use those poisons to help add to the ice curing someone has to do then yes I will build wounds. Otherwise, even with the power attacks, I really can't get ahead and yes, I've been testing this non-stop for weeks. Both in real combat and the arena.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    edited February 2016
    That's what I'm saying, the poisons played little to no part (other than keeping me prone but I wasn't fighting back anyways). I didn't cure broken limbs (I had just reinstalled m&m and not updated my prios yet) he outpaced my ice applications and built wounds. 

    So if there is a discrepancy between the specs (BC vs AL), that needs to be addressed first before we say "warriors can't build wounds." Synkarin built on me, to the point that my 11k forcefield was hitting red repeatedly due to open cavity hits. 

    Had I cured broken limbs, he would have built them faster. Obviously there is going to be a spectrum depending on what class the warrior is fighting, but in a stand still environment, ALs are building wounds. 

    Also to note, he was Lucidian so more poewr attacks, but Lucidian is the min/max so that's the balancing point. (can we nerf lucidian yet)
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  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,623 Transcendent
    edited February 2016
    How many more power attacks are we talking here, out of curiosity? 

    Could I ask to do a comparison between lucidian and non lucidian to get a rough idea?
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    Approximately whatever the power regeneration rate of Lucidian is. 20%? I'm not sure of the exact number.


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  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear Member Posts: 2,555 Transcendent
    edited February 2016
    Iirc Luci generates 1 per 6s vs 1 per 8s assuming trans discipline.
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  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,623 Transcendent
    Has anyone messed with Taurian demi+ with warrior yet?
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