Tree chopping is a conflict mechanism that is currently being used as anything BUT a conflict mechanism. A conflict mechanism is where players on two or more sides come together to engage in conflict. This can take the form of PK, politicking, even petty insults. Whatever the case, it becomes a competition or contest, and also encourages engagement with the game.
Normally, tree chopping nominally achieves this. Or at least, in the RL years I have been playing, people who chopped trees engaged in those manners of conflict, including killing little newbie me (Ethelon is the name I remember from newbiehood, I might have mentioned this before), up to insults and gloating. While I can't say that has been fun, of course, I have to concede it is a valid conflict mechanism, barely.
Currently, however, tree chopping is being used to AVOID conflict. For six real life months, (to be exact: 5 days short of 6 months) a group of players have been chopping trees when no one is around, and then going back and patting themselves on the back on a job "well done". When someone IS around, they do everything possible to run around and avoid them. Of course, with guards, anyone will run, but even without dragging along guards, I simply feel like I'm just hitting my attack alias on a training dummy. This is, of course, patently not fun, but it's not new. Hit-and-run raids on ethereal or elemental or cosmic is something most people in the game are familiar with. We've all had to deal with people who kick a mob to get... well, a kick out of it, and then waltz back to their nexus relishing their high like a druggie. So this is not new.
For tree chopping, however, it takes, at the absolute fastest, 70 hours to return the tree to a totem. A newmoon/fullmoon happens every 32 hours, and you need 3 of those to create an elder tree that can be carved. Assuming an elder tree is cut literally 5 hours before the next newmoon/fullmoon (5 hours is needed to plant all 5 nuts required to replace a single elder) 70 hours is the shortest possible time. In other words, it is the only conflict mechanism where a hit-and-run, conflict avoiding player can actually force their target to do something repetitive and boring, for real life days.
And this mechanic has been abused in this manner for the last six months.
Keeping this kind of mechanic is simply illogical. It serves as a conflict mechanism for the occasional person who... likes their conflict as insults. The very, very, very few who stay to fight (hint: I've never personally known one) after dropping an elder tree are those who are fully prepared to die - even if they kill someone, it's a matter of time before guards are brought out. This is prime org territory, after all. It's rather un-fun for those mythical people as well. For the paltry "insult" style conflict it enables (the "your mom is fat because you're cutting trees" and "no you" tells), it creates the possibility of abuse on this level that we are currently seeing. I have no doubt, of course, that changing this mechanic will not remove hit-and-run or curb the people who would abuse such mechanics, but at the very least, it removes the unreasonable 70+ hours of work that their actions can create without reprisal.
Personally, I'd prefer a more direct course of action, but that's off-topic. Now that I've established my argument for the need to change this mechanic above, let's talk about the changes.
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Possible changes. There is only one way for this to go: passive power has to be removed. There is no if-and-buts about it, not only because it's unequal (whether it is unfair can be debated, but it most certainly is unequal) but also because it is a possible crutch on which to lean on for the keeping of this mechanic. This mechanic has to go, therefore, crutches that enable arguments against the change have to go as well.
In other words: mechanics like passive power, flow/moonbeam, runed-totems/statues etc etc must all be adjusted in the wake of this change. The change to tree-chopping is paramount, and all other peripheral factors and vectors are just that: peripherals that need to be brought in line behind this change. Make no mistake, it is not the other way around - we are not considering changes to tree-chopping because of power generation, or ease of walking around forests, or totems vs statues or any of that. We will be changing power generation, or ease of walking around forests, or totems vs statues because of the need to change tree-chopping.
Trees have to be made unchoppable to curb this kind of abuse, and power generation has to go because of it. These two are the biggest parts of this mess of unequal (though debatably not unfair) mechanics. I would personally prefer making (edit: corrected spelling of "statues") statues not droppable for cities as well, but if that can't be achieved, then at least to make totems mirror statues in terms of mechanics is a good enough compromise.
Power wise, I have no objections to more essence for forests, but for those who have been keeping up with comments on the report Enyalida linked above, there IS a valid argument about the possibility of adding new essence creatures to forests giving them an unwarranted advantage. I'll leave it to the admin to decide on a suitable compromise or solution.
There're a few other small amounts of variables, like how easy forests can flow with guards following, and on the flip side, how many more exits forest have than cities, and on the flip side, cosmic can be melded, and on the flip side, nexus distort doesn't stop enter archway etc. If we raise them all, it might well spiral endlessly. "You have this, but we have to deal with that." "But then you guys have that, and WE have to deal with that." "But you guys..." etc.
I'd rather we concentrate on tree-chopping and statue griefing, and deal with the other imbalances that arise, when they arise, as Shuyin says, on their own merits. Discussion about flow and beams and whatever are fine and all, but I feel it distracts from the situation. We have a clear action to take:
1) Change tree chopping. 2) Change the biggest justifications and crutches to block that change.
Probably just an accident. I have fat fingers and I'm on a phone.
I know what it was. I meant to click the buried post below it, and accidently hit off topic.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
In my years playing the game as a ranking druid, I have never known (Serenwilde) trees to be chopped in any way that involves any of the positive parts of conflict you mention @Lerad. It's a mechanic that has been abused as you described for at least years on and off.
I talk about beam, because it is drool worthy, it's what, 4s? 2s if you have the skill + construct and 1s if you also have the arty? 6s to shop, 4s or less to poof in.
As I recall mature trees were vibrant when attempting to chop, but you totem at elder? If mature trees should be choppable/unvibrantable I will check on it and possibly bug it later.
I support most of the envoy report, and will restate for clarity:
- Remove power generation from trees.
- Add a handful of mobs to ethereal that generate essence and maybe some mobs on Faethorn (if even needed, since they can get to elemental planes still).
- Make org specific trees unchoppable. For obvious reasons regular trees should be.
- Am fine with making chopping channeled, but not okay with letting them call for help if it becomes channeled.
- Statues and their removal would stay as they are.
There are no remaining bugs with the Wildewood Barkguard ability. Moonbeam is not really relevant to the topic and hand, as while it is useful for some things - this is emphatically not one of them.
I super support fixing the current status quo because I've dealt with having trees chopped and it's an exercise in frustration, even if they're not being chopped the maintenance and urgency behind such can be annoying.(log in to do something quickly, spend longer hunting down and carving totems)
And I've also played elsewhere... and just... not had to deal with all of that, when I was in hallifax I was freaking out about not having all of the statues up until it really got drilled into me that you can just... not care.
So yeah, this weird mishmash of rp reinforced through mechanics, combined with defences, combined with power generation is kinda annoying rather than enriching, if we can split that up that'd be nice.
Though I think one of the core questions that seems to be niggling in my mind while reading this thread is if prime raids are considered a desirable aspect of the game?
While the current set up does not achieve this, I wouldn't necessarily mind seeing something grown and maintained in the forest for some benefit as long as it was a system the the communes AND the cities have to deal with.
I'd love to see prime raids that serve a purpose. I'd love to see raids that serve a purpose in general, without overly penalizing the raider or the raidee. That's the stance of pretty much all the folks who enjoy PvP in the game right now. But, alas, though many ideas have been brainstormed on this topic, they have failed to water the amber waves of GRAIN (Get Reluctant Admin Innovating Newness). Well, that, and overhaul. Which, tbh, I kinda of want to make a hypnotoad gif about.
But that's all besides the point. Once the coding resources that are going into the overhaul are freed up, then I imagine other aspects of the game that are deemed problematic will have a look taken at them. In fact...new thread time!
We just all want different things. Some would be happy with timers locking people out, some people want something they can take. I think Dharma was proposed by the admin at one point which I think was another timed event but others want to be able to launch attacks at any time.
Which kinda points to a really complicated system Like... something where you can attack at any time, but it needs to be worth it and there are incentives to attack certain people but also disincentives for picking on weaker groups, but without adding too many buffs to the game, while also adding stuff when we've got a lot already
I would suggest creating a "protective spirit" which prevents trees from being chopped in the forests. Then create a pvp friendly* quest. Have this quest only be able to be completed during the full/new moon. (full moon for glomdoring/ new moon for Serenwilde) Or some other limited seasonal event like a solstice.
Let people pvp over the quest.
*design the quest in such a way that it allows progress to be made before the other side becomes aware of it, but allow counter actions to undo the progress, but make undoing the progress easier than progressing. Put some of the quest on prime, and some on other planes. Perhaps successfull completion of the quest on the right day "harms" the trees, and thus reduces power output, but the protective spirit comes right back.
That's seriously not how Wildewood protection works, Malarious. The times protecting an elder would prevent you from chopping it are exactly the times where if that Wildewood was a druid they would just carve the totem.
This is not entirely correct. I know from experience that Wildewood and Wyrdwood are able to protect even growing trees, meaning if a commune is attempting to nurture forth a new stack of elders, a -wood can simply barkguard them to stop raiders from coming in and chopping them.
Additionally, I'd like to add that no form of autowalk, moonbeam, or teleport, is ever going to beat instanteous travel (aka Flow) which results in immediately appearing in the room of your target (likely with guards following), which is what the forests have an advantage in.
Concerning the brought up mentions of "hit and run" tactics with Elders. Chopping elders, which is situated on prime, have to follow the avenger rules of pk. This means that even if a 'defender' arrives to protect the fallen/falling elder tree, a raider cannot attack that person (even if that person attacks them) without having to deal with the Suspect that follows. This means that prime raiding is frankly more focused on hurting things of the area, rather than attacking people themselves. This is why you will rarely ever see someone standing inside an org and telling people to come at them, guards aside.
As for Elders, I think it has been said enough that the Power needs to be removed, because frankly as it is, people will just see the gain of free passive power as both a target as well as an unfair advantage.
Making trees unchoppable just...doesnt make sense. Why is a tree unable to be chopped? What about lumber in general?
Frankly the most easiest solutions I can think of are:
- Remove power generation of totems - Remove the crying out alarm when an elder is chopped - Make growing elders a simple "plant nut" concept, no other task required - Increase power generation by collecting fae (slightly..let's not overdo it)
If the 'importance' of having elders/totems is removed, then people wont bat an eye at them.
Additionally, as for making Totems like Statues, I would rather forests not be completely totemed (with runes) up. I can just imagine the triggers when someone walks in, gets hit with a totem, someone senses it and flows, then lols as they easily lock them down.
If we're talking about mechanics = intention, then given that it is possible to bring a lot of guards to quickly kill and repel all invaders, prime org raiding is then not intended to be about "hurting things of the area". It would be intended to not happen at all.
The reason why trees should be made unchoppable, as immersion breaking as it is, is because it is being abused. If the abuse that is happening now is acceptable, then sure, instead of making trees mechanically mirroring current statues, make statues mechanically mirroring current trees, power generation and all, along with all the implications of damaging the org's elemental connection or whatever that comes with taking them down. There is no middle ground here - you don't get to remove power generation, which is at best used as a flimsy and veiled excuse, and still continue to harass an org by cutting trees.
Of course, the ideal course of action is to keep things exactly as they are, and punish the abusers... but as much "flavour" as such a move will keep, it will simply make it possible for other childish players to do the same again. An abusable mechanic, as we have been shown, will continue to be abused. Better to change it entirely.
Making trees mechanically mirroring current statues will include the same functionality of all totems being able to be runed. Sure, flow can theoretically allow someone to bring guards to the target (I've never had flow, but I've no problem doing that, anyway) but since flowing makes the user off balance, they can't cast web or other lockdown abilities after flowing, and the target can simply walk out. A person who walks into the target's room, as city security members will have to do, can simply move and web in the same action, ensuring a lock down on top of having all their statues runed up.
It is common knowledge that cities have it easier locking down their prime org territory and punishing prime raiders than forests. I haven't heard anyone credible argue otherwise yet. The trade off for the much higher level of security provided by less exits, more indoor rooms and city-wide statues is the lack of passive power generation to allow them to maintain a 24/7 lockdown with guards. If power generation is removed, then there is zero reason for all totems to not be runed up, what with all the extra exits forests have.
The issue for me is... what do I do when say Gaudi does the quest? Cause like, there isn't really an opposing side which hits a city
That just means that Guadi is attacking one of the communes. No different than if somebody from Gaudi goes and chops trees currently. My suggestion is just a way to make communes care about the trees, but not be so open to single person off peak stealth grief raids. Keep the conflict avenue and the rp, but change the way it happens.
If we're talking about mechanics = intention, then given that it is possible to bring a lot of guards to quickly kill and repel all invaders, prime org raiding is then not intended to be about "hurting things of the area". It would be intended to not happen at all.
The reason why trees should be made unchoppable, as immersion breaking as it is, is because it is being abused. If the abuse that is happening now is acceptable, then sure, instead of making trees mechanically mirroring current statues, make statues mechanically mirroring current trees, power generation and all, along with all the implications of damaging the org's elemental connection or whatever that comes with taking them down. There is no middle ground here - you don't get to remove power generation, which is at best used as a flimsy and veiled excuse, and still continue to harass an org by cutting trees.
It makes no sense for statues to generate power, additionally to even implement that would involve a lot of backwards coding by reducing power received through essence and empowering mobs slightly to balance it all out. Lusternia has always been about the immersion factor, which is something Estarra keeps as a priority. It frankly would make sense for trees to produce power, as they reflect the commune's take of 'dependance and unity through nature'. They can, however, be made to not produce power if people are going to complain about the mechanics in place to remove the power production capability.
Of course, the ideal course of action is to keep things exactly as they are, and punish the abusers... but as much "flavour" as such a move will keep, it will simply make it possible for other childish players to do the same again. An abusable mechanic, as we have been shown, will continue to be abused. Better to change it entirely.
Making trees mechanically mirroring current statues will include the same functionality of all totems being able to be runed. Sure, flow can theoretically allow someone to bring guards to the target (I've never had flow, but I've no problem doing that, anyway) but since flowing makes the user off balance, they can't cast web or other lockdown abilities after flowing, and the target can simply walk out. A person who walks into the target's room, as city security members will have to do, can simply move and web in the same action, ensuring a lock down on top of having all their statues runed up.
It is common knowledge that cities have it easier locking down their prime org territory and punishing prime raiders than forests. I haven't heard anyone credible argue otherwise yet. The trade off for the much higher level of security provided by less exits, more indoor rooms and city-wide statues is the lack of passive power generation to allow them to maintain a 24/7 lockdown with guards. If power generation is removed, then there is zero reason for all totems to not be runed up, what with all the extra exits forests have.
Actually no, that is -not- the ideal solution, since the proposed 'problem' would still exist. Removing a 'virus' doesnt solve the problem of a body getting sick again, since another of the same variety will just appear to do it again, the solution is to make an antidote for an immunity. This mechanic in place can just be taken up by more and more in the future, so your 'ideal' and wishful (and may I say repetitive) wish to "just punish/remove these abusers" isnt going to work. You'll have to suck it up and accept what mechanics you have, or accept a BALANCING compromise. Meaning no, 'unchoppable' trees is not a solution.
Additionally, concerning the example of someone walking into a forest room with totems and flow. Yes the person that flows will be off-balance, however anyone can attest that being hit by a totem/statue (runed) will keep that person locked down longer than the few seconds to recover from flow, meaning the forestral can easily take advantage of it.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited August 2015
If you're getting locked down by a triggered flow defender, you're doing literally everything wrong. I'm going to cite my 10+ years of experience here and state I will autowalk before flow in 99% of scenarios because it's simply always better to arrive in target's room on equilibrium and ready to attack, even with guards, than it is to flow into it and stare at them for three seconds.
Flow is bad. Flow has no relevance to the totems issue. Stop talking about flow.
I feel like some of the reasoning behind keeping trees as gimpy versions of non-power generating statues is a tad disingenuous. I find it slightly humorous that people who take advantage of a mechanic to avoid any sort of RP conflict are citing immersion as a reason to keep mechanics to their advantage. The irony in that, at the very least, keeps this conversation entertaining.
The main reason totems are so awful to deal with is because they are so time intensive to reraise, and require a tedious, repetitive quest to do so. Remove it and the raiders can move on to targetting loyals, which is fine. At least there is an equitable trade to be had there, and they respawn on their own without one or two players causing extraneous busy work for an entire organization. The intent isn't to make prime unraidable, it is to remove the work the raiders are intending to create.
Totems need to mirror statues mechanically because the mechanical value statues add to defense is enormous and really cannot be overstated. I'd raid prime Mag a lot more if every room wasn't a potential death room, or if I couldn't get endlessly tackled into statues until I died. Hyperactive is actually a phenomenal skill because it removes statues from the equation. If people take some vindication from getting power generation removed from totems, so be it. It speaks volumes about how overblown that power generation is when both Communes, at a consensus, are willing to drop the power generation without much prompting.
Man, do I have to give english lessons here? The word "ideal" implies wishful thinking. It is the "best" solution, if only the world were rid of all the evils that plague it. That's why it's an "ideal", something that is imagined, but not really feasible. The ideal solution IS to keep the mechanics that maintain immersion, but thanks to bad eggs, that is not possible if we're serious about a solution.
A balanced compromise is therefore, exactly what is being proposed: tree and statue parity. Meaning yes, unchoppable trees are the compromised solution.
It's impossible to try and imply otherwise and put the word "balance" in the same sentence without coming off as entirely neurotic.
The issue for me is... what do I do when say Gaudi does the quest? Cause like, there isn't really an opposing side which hits a city
You do the part of the quest which undoes Gaudi's progress or you raid the elemental plane of fire etc. It is asymetrical warfare, but that makes things interesting right? [deal] >.>
Thread unicorn. @Celina is absolutly correct. Instead of me quoting or echoing her post, just go read it again.
Also: @Arcanis, your arguments make the opposite point you seem to be intending vis-a-vis totems and defending prime. The pedantry towards a group of people who are (individually and collectivly) basically experts on this particular issue and dealing with it doesn't help.
If totems truly do wish to become like statues, then there are some other points I would like to bring up.
- Creation of statues becomes some form of secondary skill for Mages and/or Guardians, since anyone with Stag or Crow is able to carve an elder.;
- Carving an elder tree should now take as much as enchanting a statue OR Enchanting a statue should become much faster and less tedious.
- Remove the entire concept of currently growing elders from the whole 5 saplings, 3 matures etc., to simply planting a nut that will grow into an elder after 1 game year (or 3 game months?)
- Whilst totems will revert back to elders in time, statues will simply crumble away. This is to keep a balance between the idea of needing to 'grow' totems, whereas cities can just build a statue on the spot.
- While elders may become unchoppable, normal trees should still be able to be chopped
- Destroyed totems moves from chopping an elder to chopping a totem. Destroying a totem completely removes it, same as destroying a statue. Chopping a totem is the same timeframe as removing a statue.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Only stag and crow users can carve totems. Statue carving is in arts, a common skill. Though I appreciate your careful phrasing that implies a restricted skill in just stag/crow is more beneficial than a common skill in arts that literally everyone has. Clever...or something.
There needs to be a mechanic (miracle grow, idk) to grow a sapling into an elder instantly or shield it from chopping completely while it grows otherwise we're right back where we started. You're asking to keep your window of harassment open so you can still chop trees while they are growing into Elders (which does not exist for statues), which undermines the entire intent of the change. Sooooo....no. Nice try though!
Everything else is what we've been saying, more or less. Glad to have you.
Only stag and crow users can carve totems. Statue carving is in arts, a common skill. Though I appreciate your careful phrasing that implies a restricted skill in just stag/crow is more beneficial than a common skill in arts that literally everyone has. Clever...or something.
Arts...yes...a common skill that most dont even bother to learn for...oh the obvious reason of spending lessons on more beneficial things, like their actual guild skills. Stag and Crow are both a central themed guild skill..means the lessons would already be in there, meaning it is far easier than to craft a statue. Frankly ask around, you'll generally not find a trans art person to make statues (those that can be bothered anyway) except sparringly.
There needs to be a mechanic (miracle grow, idk) to grow a sapling into an elder instantly or shield it from chopping completely while it grows otherwise we're right back where we started. You're asking to keep your window of harassment open so you can still chop trees while they are growing into Elders (which does not exist for statues), which undermines the entire intent of the change. Sooooo....no. Nice try though!
Even if the elder was choppable during growth (which frankly for just 1 year, or 3 months, that doesnt sound too hard to manage, could even place guards at it). With the new system, it wouldnt be that much of a problem. However, I was mentioning normal trees, such as those grown by the sapling ability. -Those- need to remain choppable.
That is silly. Just because you do not want to learn a general skillset does not mean that nobody wants to. I guarantee that there are far, far more players with the ability to carve statues than there are Crow & Stag users combined.
Just for one year! You do realize that each forest has something on the order of three to four hundred rooms, and that guards are almost totally useless at... guarding against this kind of thing, right?
That's leaving aside it suddenly taking an entire year to grow a statue analogue because...
Arts...yes...a common skill that most dont even bother to learn for...oh the obvious reason of spending lessons on more beneficial things, like their actual guild skills. Stag and Crow are both a central themed guild skill..means the lessons would already be in there, meaning it is far easier than to craft a statue. Frankly ask around, you'll generally not find a trans art person to make statues (those that can be bothered anyway) except sparringly.
Statues Sculpt statues from marble to memorialize others.
Fabled 0%
Syntax: SCULPT STATUE OF <target>
SCULPT STATUE OF SKETCH <sketch>
You must be in an outdoor urban or road environment to sculpt a statue. Your model must also be in the same location as yourself, or you must have six sketches of your model. You may also sculpt statues in aether manses.
Ingredients: marble 5
GoldTint Mix a sunny gold tincture from pure gold.
Fabled 33%
Syntax: MIX GOLD
Mix up a batch of sunny gold tincture if you have the right ingredients.
Ingredients: gold 2 faeleaf 1
Anyone who wants to make the runes to affix to the statue already needs arts to the point that they can make statues.
Yeah...... trans arts isn't hard to find for most people......
Just remove the raiding and power aspects from totems.
The theory of "forests can't get essence" does not hold true really, so the idea they need the power equal to essence passively is just debunkable. Remove the passive power, work on an active option and acknowledge they will go to other planes still.
Just for one year! You do realize that each forest has something on the order of three to four hundred rooms, and that guards are almost totally useless at... guarding against this kind of thing, right?
That's leaving aside it suddenly taking an entire year to grow a statue analogue because...
And, just for fun: Celest: 369/508 urban rooms (I can't remember if statues actually needs to be in urban, or just non-natural?). Magnagora: 391/441 urban rooms Hallifax: 471/477 urban rooms Gaudiguch: 242/357 urban rooms
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
The fact that some people don't want to or have not yet learned it is not relevant to the balance discussion. The reality simply is that a common skill is going to be more widely available than a guild specific skill, and that's not really a legitimate point of debate. It's just a numbers thing. Everyone > not everyone.
If you want to move carving statues from arts to whatever-mancy, take it up with Tanin. He seems eager to post whatever you give him. I suspect most city envoys are going to disagree with you, but it's your perogative.
Obviously saplings that prevent breaking a meld would still be choppable. Those....don't grow into Elders though. Feel free to chop all the mature trees in Ethereglom if that's your thing.
Comments
Normally, tree chopping nominally achieves this. Or at least, in the RL years I have been playing, people who chopped trees engaged in those manners of conflict, including killing little newbie me (Ethelon is the name I remember from newbiehood, I might have mentioned this before), up to insults and gloating. While I can't say that has been fun, of course, I have to concede it is a valid conflict mechanism, barely.
Currently, however, tree chopping is being used to AVOID conflict. For six real life months, (to be exact: 5 days short of 6 months) a group of players have been chopping trees when no one is around, and then going back and patting themselves on the back on a job "well done". When someone IS around, they do everything possible to run around and avoid them. Of course, with guards, anyone will run, but even without dragging along guards, I simply feel like I'm just hitting my attack alias on a training dummy. This is, of course, patently not fun, but it's not new. Hit-and-run raids on ethereal or elemental or cosmic is something most people in the game are familiar with. We've all had to deal with people who kick a mob to get... well, a kick out of it, and then waltz back to their nexus relishing their high like a druggie. So this is not new.
For tree chopping, however, it takes, at the absolute fastest, 70 hours to return the tree to a totem. A newmoon/fullmoon happens every 32 hours, and you need 3 of those to create an elder tree that can be carved. Assuming an elder tree is cut literally 5 hours before the next newmoon/fullmoon (5 hours is needed to plant all 5 nuts required to replace a single elder) 70 hours is the shortest possible time. In other words, it is the only conflict mechanism where a hit-and-run, conflict avoiding player can actually force their target to do something repetitive and boring, for real life days.
And this mechanic has been abused in this manner for the last six months.
Keeping this kind of mechanic is simply illogical. It serves as a conflict mechanism for the occasional person who... likes their conflict as insults. The very, very, very few who stay to fight (hint: I've never personally known one) after dropping an elder tree are those who are fully prepared to die - even if they kill someone, it's a matter of time before guards are brought out. This is prime org territory, after all. It's rather un-fun for those mythical people as well. For the paltry "insult" style conflict it enables (the "your mom is fat because you're cutting trees" and "no you" tells), it creates the possibility of abuse on this level that we are currently seeing. I have no doubt, of course, that changing this mechanic will not remove hit-and-run or curb the people who would abuse such mechanics, but at the very least, it removes the unreasonable 70+ hours of work that their actions can create without reprisal.
Personally, I'd prefer a more direct course of action, but that's off-topic. Now that I've established my argument for the need to change this mechanic above, let's talk about the changes.
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Possible changes. There is only one way for this to go: passive power has to be removed. There is no if-and-buts about it, not only because it's unequal (whether it is unfair can be debated, but it most certainly is unequal) but also because it is a possible crutch on which to lean on for the keeping of this mechanic. This mechanic has to go, therefore, crutches that enable arguments against the change have to go as well.
In other words: mechanics like passive power, flow/moonbeam, runed-totems/statues etc etc must all be adjusted in the wake of this change. The change to tree-chopping is paramount, and all other peripheral factors and vectors are just that: peripherals that need to be brought in line behind this change. Make no mistake, it is not the other way around - we are not considering changes to tree-chopping because of power generation, or ease of walking around forests, or totems vs statues or any of that. We will be changing power generation, or ease of walking around forests, or totems vs statues because of the need to change tree-chopping.
Trees have to be made unchoppable to curb this kind of abuse, and power generation has to go because of it. These two are the biggest parts of this mess of unequal (though debatably not unfair) mechanics. I would personally prefer making (edit: corrected spelling of "statues") statues not droppable for cities as well, but if that can't be achieved, then at least to make totems mirror statues in terms of mechanics is a good enough compromise.
Power wise, I have no objections to more essence for forests, but for those who have been keeping up with comments on the report Enyalida linked above, there IS a valid argument about the possibility of adding new essence creatures to forests giving them an unwarranted advantage. I'll leave it to the admin to decide on a suitable compromise or solution.
There're a few other small amounts of variables, like how easy forests can flow with guards following, and on the flip side, how many more exits forest have than cities, and on the flip side, cosmic can be melded, and on the flip side, nexus distort doesn't stop enter archway etc. If we raise them all, it might well spiral endlessly. "You have this, but we have to deal with that." "But then you guys have that, and WE have to deal with that." "But you guys..." etc.
I'd rather we concentrate on tree-chopping and statue griefing, and deal with the other imbalances that arise, when they arise, as Shuyin says, on their own merits. Discussion about flow and beams and whatever are fine and all, but I feel it distracts from the situation. We have a clear action to take:
1) Change tree chopping.
2) Change the biggest justifications and crutches to block that change.
Let's talk about those.
I know what it was. I meant to click the buried post below it, and accidently hit off topic.
This is not entirely correct. I know from experience that Wildewood and Wyrdwood are able to protect even growing trees, meaning if a commune is attempting to nurture forth a new stack of elders, a -wood can simply barkguard them to stop raiders from coming in and chopping them.
Additionally, I'd like to add that no form of autowalk, moonbeam, or teleport, is ever going to beat instanteous travel (aka Flow) which results in immediately appearing in the room of your target (likely with guards following), which is what the forests have an advantage in.
As for Elders, I think it has been said enough that the Power needs to be removed, because frankly as it is, people will just see the gain of free passive power as both a target as well as an unfair advantage.
Making trees unchoppable just...doesnt make sense. Why is a tree unable to be chopped? What about lumber in general?
Frankly the most easiest solutions I can think of are:
- Remove power generation of totems
- Remove the crying out alarm when an elder is chopped
- Make growing elders a simple "plant nut" concept, no other task required
- Increase power generation by collecting fae (slightly..let's not overdo it)
If the 'importance' of having elders/totems is removed, then people wont bat an eye at them.
Additionally, as for making Totems like Statues, I would rather forests not be completely totemed (with runes) up. I can just imagine the triggers when someone walks in, gets hit with a totem, someone senses it and flows, then lols as they easily lock them down.
The reason why trees should be made unchoppable, as immersion breaking as it is, is because it is being abused. If the abuse that is happening now is acceptable, then sure, instead of making trees mechanically mirroring current statues, make statues mechanically mirroring current trees, power generation and all, along with all the implications of damaging the org's elemental connection or whatever that comes with taking them down. There is no middle ground here - you don't get to remove power generation, which is at best used as a flimsy and veiled excuse, and still continue to harass an org by cutting trees.
Of course, the ideal course of action is to keep things exactly as they are, and punish the abusers... but as much "flavour" as such a move will keep, it will simply make it possible for other childish players to do the same again. An abusable mechanic, as we have been shown, will continue to be abused. Better to change it entirely.
Making trees mechanically mirroring current statues will include the same functionality of all totems being able to be runed. Sure, flow can theoretically allow someone to bring guards to the target (I've never had flow, but I've no problem doing that, anyway) but since flowing makes the user off balance, they can't cast web or other lockdown abilities after flowing, and the target can simply walk out. A person who walks into the target's room, as city security members will have to do, can simply move and web in the same action, ensuring a lock down on top of having all their statues runed up.
It is common knowledge that cities have it easier locking down their prime org territory and punishing prime raiders than forests. I haven't heard anyone credible argue otherwise yet. The trade off for the much higher level of security provided by less exits, more indoor rooms and city-wide statues is the lack of passive power generation to allow them to maintain a 24/7 lockdown with guards. If power generation is removed, then there is zero reason for all totems to not be runed up, what with all the extra exits forests have.
Keep the conflict avenue and the rp, but change the way it happens.
It makes no sense for statues to generate power, additionally to even implement that would involve a lot of backwards coding by reducing power received through essence and empowering mobs slightly to balance it all out. Lusternia has always been about the immersion factor, which is something Estarra keeps as a priority. It frankly would make sense for trees to produce power, as they reflect the commune's take of 'dependance and unity through nature'. They can, however, be made to not produce power if people are going to complain about the mechanics in place to remove the power production capability.
Actually no, that is -not- the ideal solution, since the proposed 'problem' would still exist. Removing a 'virus' doesnt solve the problem of a body getting sick again, since another of the same variety will just appear to do it again, the solution is to make an antidote for an immunity. This mechanic in place can just be taken up by more and more in the future, so your 'ideal' and wishful (and may I say repetitive) wish to "just punish/remove these abusers" isnt going to work. You'll have to suck it up and accept what mechanics you have, or accept a BALANCING compromise. Meaning no, 'unchoppable' trees is not a solution.
Additionally, concerning the example of someone walking into a forest room with totems and flow. Yes the person that flows will be off-balance, however anyone can attest that being hit by a totem/statue (runed) will keep that person locked down longer than the few seconds to recover from flow, meaning the forestral can easily take advantage of it.
A balanced compromise is therefore, exactly what is being proposed: tree and statue parity. Meaning yes, unchoppable trees are the compromised solution.
It's impossible to try and imply otherwise and put the word "balance" in the same sentence without coming off as entirely neurotic.
Also: @Arcanis, your arguments make the opposite point you seem to be intending vis-a-vis totems and defending prime. The pedantry towards a group of people who are (individually and collectivly) basically experts on this particular issue and dealing with it doesn't help.
- Creation of statues becomes some form of secondary skill for Mages and/or Guardians, since anyone with Stag or Crow is able to carve an elder.;
- Carving an elder tree should now take as much as enchanting a statue OR Enchanting a statue should become much faster and less tedious.
- Remove the entire concept of currently growing elders from the whole 5 saplings, 3 matures etc., to simply planting a nut that will grow into an elder after 1 game year (or 3 game months?)
- Whilst totems will revert back to elders in time, statues will simply crumble away. This is to keep a balance between the idea of needing to 'grow' totems, whereas cities can just build a statue on the spot.
- While elders may become unchoppable, normal trees should still be able to be chopped
- Destroyed totems moves from chopping an elder to chopping a totem. Destroying a totem completely removes it, same as destroying a statue. Chopping a totem is the same timeframe as removing a statue.
-
Arts...yes...a common skill that most dont even bother to learn for...oh the obvious reason of spending lessons on more beneficial things, like their actual guild skills. Stag and Crow are both a central themed guild skill..means the lessons would already be in there, meaning it is far easier than to craft a statue. Frankly ask around, you'll generally not find a trans art person to make statues (those that can be bothered anyway) except sparringly.
Even if the elder was choppable during growth (which frankly for just 1 year, or 3 months, that doesnt sound too hard to manage, could even place guards at it). With the new system, it wouldnt be that much of a problem. However, I was mentioning normal trees, such as those grown by the sapling ability. -Those- need to remain choppable.
That's leaving aside it suddenly taking an entire year to grow a statue analogue because...
Glomdoring: 230/573 forest rooms
Serenwilde: 175/353 (north) plus 143/346 (south) forest rooms, totaling 318/699.
And, just for fun:
Celest: 369/508 urban rooms (I can't remember if statues actually needs to be in urban, or just non-natural?).
Magnagora: 391/441 urban rooms
Hallifax: 471/477 urban rooms
Gaudiguch: 242/357 urban rooms