Tree Chopping in Communes

Estarra

Just wanted to start an informal discussion on what players think about the current mechanics for chopping down commune trees. Is it fair as-is? Should there be more limits to very aggressive choppers? Some other mechanic to prevent constant morale-destroying chopping (limit when chopping can occur, capping how much can be chopped, etc.)?

Respectful discussion encouraged!

Enyalida

I think that the envoys report currently up takes a good stab at solving most (if not all) of the problems endemic to the totem mechanic.

The big problem is that the mechanic seems designed to encourage and empower hit-and-run attacks, made at times and in situations where there is zero chance of reprisal. Indeed, because the cities have no equivalent target, there is nothing that can be done short of teeth gnashing to respond or react IC or mechanically to totem chopping.

Rivius

Honestly, my biggest issue with chopping is that it seems to be a form of conflict that ends up just not working. Individuals just sneak in, hit CHOP TREE WITH AXE, and there's no warning that they're doing it, and it doesn't take much time for it to be done. By the time any sort of warning is made, the elder is already down and the person has already escaped without consequence. Of course, this doesn't touch the fact, that some people don't even need to sneak in at all - they just wait until non-peak hours when few people are available to even hear the warning in the first place. Effectively, it just becomes a target for people to attack communes without any sort of equal retribution on the city end of things. It becomes griefing, not conflict, at that point because they know full well it antagonizes people and there's nothing they can do about it.

Enyalida

Even with forest to forest conflict, there is nothing either side can actually do to resolve conflict - the mechanic only escalates to the point where the forests are hurt more with no totems at all. We can rattle our weapons at the cities or other forest, but that ONLY ever results in more of our totems being chopped, never fewer. 

Enyalida

For the interested, I've pasted the report as it stands now into pastebin here. All envoys who have commented so far appear to be in agreement in general on the problem and the solutions, with debate ongoing about how to make up the passive power in a fair, active way.  

Silvanus

It's a mechanic that favors hit and run tactics, which most people consider not fun.

Malayn

As someone from was from a commune and from cities too.......

Trees generate a metric crapton of power. Far more than cities tend to generate, and can be done entirely passively.  Especially with chem specs making trees guardable. 

- Remove trees from generating power

- Make them no longer able to be cut down (RAVENWOODS, so you can still chop them down in other places to meld)

We absolutely should NOT limit when you can chop trees.  1 Wildewood/Wyrdenwood can already protect every tree they want to.   Totems are never choppable, etc.

The system is based on the premise forests cant get essence. They use planes fairly well, they have other means to get it, and I would say if they absolutely need a way.... make critters that show up in faethorn for essence, and a handful more in both ethers.  Maybe 16 mobs in each ethereal and 20 in faethorn.   Communes have never had issues with power and generally created it rapidly. 

1 prophecy quest is 500 power for Nils sake. 

Arcanis

Ahem, I think with the experience I have on the chopping side, I should weigh in on this with some points.


Firstly, chopping trees, there are 2 kinds:

- Chopping a normal tree, which results in an area-message of a tree falling

- Chopping an elder tree, which results in a cry out on CT to alert members.


Frankly it comes down to the idea of why the communes should first care, mechanically, about it. Trees give power, remove that aspect (as well as the crying out on CT), and most wouldnt even care nor complain about it.


That aside, I'd like to point out that with current fixed stats, it takes 2 swings to cut down a mature or elder tree, each swing costing 6 seconds of balance. Axelords get a much faster chop which lets them rush through a forest.


Should Totem carving become a copy of statue mechanics? I personally dont think it should. Statues are simply not Totems. Totems have always been considered a 'sacred' concept for forests, and the idea of a druid bonding to a totem always representing a deeper connection. Statues are simply...a tool used. Communes were never suppose to be cities, and unique mechanics for each represent this. The idea of 'free range of travel' in a forest always, to me, represented how they opted for a more open and wild lifestyle, rather than the cities which are fortified up. Also dont forget that while communes can not 'statue up' each of their rooms, most of their members are in fact able to instantly travel and appear before any enemy in the area via the Flow ability which, when mixed with following guards, can be quite lethal.



For changes, I'd suggest removing the current passive power concept of having trees, and making the growth of an elder tree more centralized around a druid wanting a totem to bond with.

Enyalida

@Malarious read the report and its comments, they are basically what you have said here. Also, a few of your details are wrong regarding how -wood guarding works, and in making the assumption that because a tree can be carved it can never ever be chopped.

@Arcanis  surprisingly hits on the heart of the matter, among all of the random observations and other non sequitors. The issue here is that forests are predisposed to care about the totems, regardless of their capacity to generate power. It is the essential helplessness of having an objective that the lore says should be protected, that it's your org's POINT to protect that one objective, while the mechanics systematically deprive you of any meaningful way to keep  that resource safe or retaliate in kind.

Shaddus

Maybe the commune should be warned when a tree is hit, not when it falls? 6 seconds off balance is a decent amount, but not when flow causes you to be off balance for 3+ (I think), and touching an orgbix is spammable and instantaneous.

Arcanis

Shaddus said:

Maybe the commune should be warned when a tree is hit, not when it falls? 6 seconds off balance is a decent amount, but not when flow causes you to be off balance for 3+ (I think), and touching an orgbix is spammable and instantaneous.

I have personally suffered the consequences of that 6 second balance loss, wherein I chop, someone flows with guards, and im dead.

That aside, some things to consider about totems/trees/elders in general.


Forests currently gain roughly 3000 passive power from totems and trees in their forest. Even the passive power quest of each city and commune doesnt give this much, which is 1000 power. Even if we consider essence on elemental, even with sands, and empowering cosmic beings, that still wont add up to this large gain unless we are repeatedly harvesting these sources.


So the fact it is somewhat 'easy' to cut down an elder (which truth be told, it isnt since you have to wait for the totem to revert to begin with), balances out the fact of the very easy method of passively obtaining such a large amount of power.

Enyalida

Even then, that means that if you respond instantly you have ~3 seconds to act before they chop again, downing the tree and running away. Better hope you can lock them down in those three seconds so that they can't get away. 

It was once said (by Glomdoring) that our problem with totems was because we sucked at defending them. I proceeded to waltz in while they had folks online (3ish?) in the territory to chop down totems. I got five and left. After the first tree went down, they had full warning for all the others before I even walked to them. 

Esca

Estarra said: 

Respectful discussion encouraged!

Is this a joke? These forums are possibly the most toxic internet space I've been on since 4chan. There's already an envoy report on-going, why is this necessary?

Arcanis

Enyalida said:

Even then, that means that if you respond instantly you have ~3 seconds to act before they chop again, downing the tree and running away. Better hope you can lock them down in those three seconds so that they can't get away. 

It was once said (by Glomdoring) that our problem with totems was because we sucked at defending them. I proceeded to waltz in while they had folks online (3ish?) in the territory to chop down totems. I got five and left. After the first tree went down, they had full warning for all the others before I even walked to them. 

Were you chopping or mulching? Because I believe mulch is instant

Enyalida

Can't mulch sacred trees like that.

Enyalida

Esca said:

Estarra said: 

Respectful discussion encouraged!

Is this a joke? These forums are possibly the most toxic internet space I've been on since 4chan. There's already an envoy report on-going, why is this necessary?

REALLY? You must not get around the internet much :P The Lusternian forums are an over-moderated pile of joy, even compared to the forums of the other IREs.

Xenthos

If you want to remove totem power generation, you need a number of other changes.
1) Essence mobs need to spawn on Ethereal regardless of whether or not fae were collected.
2) Totem chopping needs to be a channeled action that takes as long as statue destruction. This will work regardless of whether or not they have been carved, but will not work if bonded (because skills are gated off of that).
3) All totems need to function regardless of whether or not they are bonded (crow/stag users will still need to bond for skill purposes).

Easiest solution is to just make it a channeled action ala statue destruction. Can destroy one, if not caught beforehand. If caught, being attacked and curing will end the destruction.

It depends on whether you want the entire picture to mimic statues (the first solution) or just minimize tree griefing (second solution will do that just fine).

Second solution does not mean that the power generation needs to remain as it is, but hitting it heavily (or removing it entirely) highlights / exacerbates other balance issues.

Enyalida

I agree with that. Personally, I'm in favor of going with all three, and making further changes to make the forest power generation scheme more unique or interesting at a future date if desired.

Shaddus

Guards shouldn't follow through flow, IMO.


Statues are instant to make, take a while to enchant, take a while to tear down. Totems take a while to make (irl days, if griefers don't get to them), don't require enchanting, and are easy to tear down.

So why don't we do the following:

Make totem chopping a channeled action like statue removing. Have both announce to the org when the channeled action starts.

Leave the power generation alone, or only tag it to totems that are bonded. Thus, the forests will only really be bound by RP reasons to keep totems that aren't at entry and exit choke points.

Cyndarin

That changes nothing. Channeled or not has no bearing on the reality that totems are targeted as a last resort to "raid" the Communes and are done so primarily when little to no one can defend.

Can you stop these kinds of raids? No, not without some extremely heavy handed mechanics. That being said, a single defender with a clump of guards and a solid awareness of mechanics can defend an entire city because statues allow for each room to be a defendable space. A single statue can buy enough time for a guard stack to wipe out anyone. Limited entrances can be garrisoned off to prevent people from flying in. Communes do not have this luxury, and defending from even 1 or 2 attackers who know what they are doing can take a significant amount of coordination. A capable raider can really roam a commune unmolested. Absolutely not the case in cities. 

The reason statues are not a target is because taking them down accomplishes nothing, and the risk is significantly higher to take one down due to how city defense works. They are defense structures, there is no RP attached to them. Tearing them down does not upset people because you can just put them right back up without an involved quest and planting process. Power generation is a distraction tactic, no one cares that much about the power totems generate. It's literally an infinite resource that every org generates enough of to raise the vernals they want to raise. 

Totems are a target because fundamental comune RP puts more weight on trees than city RP puts on statues (aka none at all). People attack totems because they are low risk and prompt people to spend time doing things they don't want to do aka questing for nuts. Their entire motivation is to waste people's time with no risk to themselves and unless a significant risk is added or the time suck is removed, they will continue to be a target by the type of people that target totems. 

Flow is not a counter. Anyone with an autowalker can outpace someone who flows.

Enyalida

@Celina is absolutely and unreservedly right on all counts in the post above mine.

Tarkenton

Seriously, I'll trade that passive power generation for a cessation of bs "raids" any day of the week.

Malayn

I think everyone seems ok with power from trees gone, put power elsewhere and remove the cutting thing.

I do disagree with statues and trees calling for help when channeling begins though. The mechanic of removing statues comes into play in other places for purposes, making them always known is a terrible idea. A statue should not call for help (this is inside a village or city proper), ever after the fact. The totems in this case we are calling sentient enough to call for help for some reason, the tree crashing should be the announcement, but it shouldn't call for help on start. 

That said, I have no vested interest in chopping. My comments on protecting trees and such are based on my brief period of actively doing it and quickly never having anything I could chop because of Wildewood protecting it all. Without a specific reason for chopping (rage griefing is not one), I detest the idea of it. 

I agree it is harder to defend up a forest passively (aka statues vs totems), but forests tend to have no issue in chasing even in large bodies.   Can I have moon beam as an arty yet?

Enyalida

That's seriously not how Wildewood protection works, Malarious. The times protecting an elder would prevent you from chopping it are exactly the times where if that Wildewood was a druid they would just carve the totem. 

Moon beam is also an awful mechanic for chasing, you're really barking up the wrong tree in several ways here. The reason you see a lot of moonbeams is because for most people it's literally the only way to tell if you're even in the area when you're veiled. 

Tarkenton

Pst, Mal, there's this skill in Planar called "Teleport".  Alternatively, ghostwalk 'em.

Cyndarin

Autowalkers and scent beat moonbeam/flow all day, every day. It's not even a competition.

Enyalida

Again, unless we're talking about Veil here (which @Malarious is). That's an entirely separate can of OP.

Tylwyth

Just to clarify a bit on -woods and protection.

They can only do this to an uncarved totem. And have no incentive to Barkguard an eldar they can just carve, the ONLY reason to barkguard a tree is if it's going to grow into an elder, so a  sapling/mature/enormous Ravenwood/Moonhart. And barkguard wears off when the tree grows or the right phase of moon passes(FULL/NEW) AFAIK.

Erm, also you can only guard like 10 or so trees that way per -Wood person.

(Well the skill might not care how many elders you have barkguarded, but as mentioned, that's not what it's used for).

 

Enyalida

The barkguard provision that allows for protecting elder trees is indeed not capped, and was added only after a long history of begging for it, from literally day one of Wildewoods. It was instituted before totemcarving was moved into the totems skills, and served as an inferior way to protect the vulnerable Sacred Trees until a 'real' druid could get to them for carving. 

Tylwyth

Ah, I thought it might have been something like that.

As it stands now though, woods can just carve the totem themselves. Might do good to consider if we should drop the unlimited Eldar protection part if doing these changes.

Gabriella

Enyalida said:

Even then, that means that if you respond instantly you have ~3 seconds to act before they chop again, downing the tree and running away. Better hope you can lock them down in those three seconds so that they can't get away. 

It was once said (by Glomdoring) that our problem with totems was because we sucked at defending them. I proceeded to waltz in while they had folks online (3ish?) in the territory to chop down totems. I got five and left. After the first tree went down, they had full warning for all the others before I even walked to them. 

Quick note as to this post - I'm confused as to why @Shaddus marked this as off-topic, considering it is on topic, and is still within the respectful range.  Was it an accident, meaning to click on Esca's post directly below?

That aside, I'd also like to comment on this, being a person that has tried to chase down people that have come in chopping.

FLOW is just barely useful in this sort of thing.  I suppose if you have guards following, it COULD help, but as far as a group following, you're kind of screwed, because people can't follow you through flow unless they're npcs, from what I understand.  (Unless they've changed this recently?)  Also, a lot of people can't/don't know how to move the guards or order them to follow you, so again, if you're not high-ranking, you're screwed with the guard situation.

Further, when you use flow, while it is instantaneous, it still takes away equilibrium when you enter the room.  Even if the person hasn't noticed you at this point, they're usually already like, four or five rooms away from you.  Of course, you can always use MOONBEAM, which allows you to bring a group and  doesn't take away your movement when you enter into the room, but it does alert the enemy to the fact that you're entering, and the second they notice it, they can move, and that disrupts your ability to travel to them.

I absolutely HATE anyone who participates in any sort of chopping activities, either in my own commune, or in Glomdoring, just because it is very difficult to defend.  I loved that @Enyalida was pushing for a totems agreement of non-chopping, because even though a fair amount of people didn't do it anyway, it was just nice to know that everyone understood.  And it was hard to muster up the energy sometimes, to want to defend the uncarved elders, just because it was so difficult. 

I'm fully in favor of reducing the value of the elders, or even adjusting them to a point that makes them easier to defend, or generating power in other ways, despite the fact that I am a druid in game.  Yes, it might cause a loss in some of the lore, or the deep connection with the forest, but we already have so many other ways that we do that, including with demesnes and the like, so I don't see why they can't be adjusted mechanically.  I feel like (personally) that the value of them in the RP sense will stay about the same.  As it is when city members come and chop, it's just griefing.  Also, we can have our forest set on fire, which is a pain in the ass too.  But y'know, nature.

But I digress.