I mean really, how hard is it to understand that the person who is "raiding" is going to chop one tree, then gtfo?
Seriously need to reconsider the no playing as an admin policy, because things like this show a lack of fundamental understanding of how the game actually works.
Why not just sell an artifact that lets everyone carve totems of their orgs type? Make money and "solve" the problem better than now, still worse than what was suggested by envoys, but hey, what would they know about this kind of thing? /s
To be fair, I have no problems with alternate solutions, especially on this particular issue. I acknowledge not wanting to make carbon copies and remove flavour or conflict where possible. It just so happens that this implementation does not quite achieve what I feel Estarra is trying for either, and ends up going in the opposite direction of what both the admin and the players collective agree on.
I see @Estarra's attempt to address power parity by creating a power cost, the attempt to address constant harassment by creating a timeout effect, and the attempt to alleviate login pressure by allowing discretionary effect stacking, all of which are commendable - but the solution that has resulted will simply end up missing all three goals and exacerbate underlying problems. I have little interest in carbon copy solutions either, but in this particular issue, I think that is really the best thing to do, and this attempt at an alternate solution only cements that opinion in my head the more I think about it. Trying to go out on a limb and to save an ailing system is fine and all, but this is a system that simply is causing far too much trouble than is worth, and attempts to patch it up, however well-meant the rationale behind the implementations, simply will not be able to address the biggest and most sore issues that have plagued this system for a long time now.
The return on investment for such patchwork solutions is simply too low (in this case, a net negative) to justify trying to save the system. One less conflict system will be a loss, indeed, and a little bit of commune uniqueness will go away if we opt for the envoy report's solution, which I would bet is by no means simple to implement, but the gains, I personally feel, will be well worth the cost. Again, please reconsider.
I do not believe this fixes any of the issues really:
- This guts the ability for conflict that hardly exists as is. Since at any one time there won't be many up, and it is usually cheaper to let them die. I would need to math this out to be specific (measure power for totem vs power gained if the totem were dead over the same period but being regrown).
- Is this power free when a construct is up? Unfair in large part to cities, communes get distort liveforest for free on prime (cities get elemental and cosmic), which makes it far riskier to do anything on prime as is. If these powers are free under a construct then it is basically a game over scenario anyway.
- This still leaves the very high free power generation (most trees are only choppable briefly, once in awhile). I have seen numbers as high as 10K power a month for this.
Druid security-power aide here~ 10K is a bug. NON totems generate very little power, nonElders a tiny fraction of what a totem would.
As a "defense" liveforest is very meh. And on prime is the ONLY discretionary we get for free(prime), assuming we have that construct up. We often don't.
Also, to be clear, the power for using Ironbark would NOT be subtracted from the Totems power pool, but from the druid who is using it. So, but all the Gloms rules/laws,(which are not unique in this, I am certain) the druid woudl ahve to repay that amount.
Also, to be clear, the power for using Ironbark would NOT be subtracted from the Totems power pool, but from the druid who is using it. So, but all the Gloms rules/laws,(which are not unique in this, I am certain) the druid woudl ahve to repay that amount.
That's a problem with your power laws and irrelevant to the worth of the mechanics themselves. Magnagora is not going to demand Thalkros repay the power he used to distort Shanthmark, for example.
Actually, if we are talking about the totem power gain/loss, power repayed by a player wouldn't be lost.
So, it does matter a bit.
FOR pposters who aren't steingrim:
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited September 2015
Wait a second, I think we are being a little dramatic. The admin do and have always reserved complete control of game design. Just because an envoy report is put up doesn't mean the admin are required to follow the report. They could have very easily rejected it rather than giving an alternative to try WHILE stating if it does not work, they are open to changes. A stance many of the very envoys in this thread take on reports. It's a little hypocritical for us to complain over the very things we do ourselves. Look, it's not my perfect solution either, but it's not a terrible idea either. This absolutely IS NOT the shackles incident and I reject any comparison to that, because there was no compromise during that debacle, and this has been nothing but compromise. People need to cool their jets.
Keep in mind that until very recently, systemic elder chopping was not a major, constant issue. It become an issue because of one player specifically. Yes, one person will run in and chop an elder then bolt. If that person creates an issue, this system actually does address the problem ASSUMING the power lost from the discretionaries is a net wash with the power gained from the totems. They can be locked out of that harassment, aside from the one Elder. It has never been one and done elder choppings, which have existed forever, that have evoked widespread complaints. Additionally, there are actually some benefits to Communes in the system still being able to generate the power and react accordingly when the one off players decide to be turds while maintaining the integrity of the system's intent. You have to give them credit for trying to build a solution that allowed communes to keep their benefits. Let's not forget the many reasons it still sucks to be a commune that this report does not address, and why it's not a terrible idea for communes to have some boons for not being remotely as defendable as cities. It's exceedingly nice that the admin seem to take that into consideration.
Here's the deal, the system might be dated (I don't see why it's considered worse now than in the days of true griefing, but that's just me) but if this solution can prevent these one of annoyances that have only ever been the cause of the outrage, I would find this solution a success. I think this solution does eliminate long term annoyances like we've see, like what prompted the report.
We talk about the lore of this game, and I will say that much of that praise comes from the minutiae, the details of the day to day systems and not just the book of Tae and what not. Now, it can be argued that maybe this detail isn't all that important, but I certainly don't blame the admin for attempting to resolve the issue while keeping the details intact. Especially when they remain open to change based on information gathered in the process. Even now, they are fed bad info by other players (like 10k power totems) that they digest and verify as they go along. Even during the life of this thread, the solution has been adjusted, and it's been less than 12 hours.
I wanted to draw attention to the fact that the admin did cite an issue they were attempting to resolve (The loss of conflict on prime based on trees).
I do not want it to be taken as all negatives, as we are disappointed in the change, but the intent was not to "solution 4" but to try to make everyone happy. This solution attempted to make everyone happy, and in this case didn't make anyone happy.
I would say that changes are on the table and that admin may very well revert the change given we have no positive responses, and the math does not support this. It will always either bias in favor of the forest, or in favor of the 1 person who raids per year.
I would rather aim for parity and remove the power gains and make tree chopping not a thing. We have other areas of conflict, some of which are too often.
Quests that grief are more prevalent than areas of combat right now (but that is not the topic of this thread).
One intentional aside: If everyone seems to agree the pact changes were a disaster, why have they not been envoyed for change or reversion? Is it a matter of envoy arguing (celestines say it is fine so does celest, others say no, etc)? These also seemed like pretty simple changes were possible.
EDIT: It has been brought to my attention. The 10K power record was from Glomdoring not Serenwilde, thanks for correcting that Avurekhos. So the bug would likely have been from Athree if he knew what to bug.
For those who like numbers, this is the amount of power a single tree adds:
Sapling (the kind growing up into other trees, not the druid-mesne kind): 1 power Mature: 2 power Enormous: 5 power Elder: 7 power Totem: 9 power
You can have five saplings in a room, which would give 5 power. You can have three mature trees in a room, which would give 6 power. You can have one enormous tree in a room, which would give 5 power. You can have one elder tree in a room, which would give 7 power. You can have one totem in a room, which would give 9 power.
Needless to say, the above cannot be combined; you can't have five saplings and a totem, for instance.
Firstly, people are talking about "chop and runs" as if it is a new conflict gimmick. For years we have had people that come in, kill a demon/angel or two and split when the heat is on. This isnt anything new and it is not only focused on Elders. Growing Elder trees, and thus totems, have the advantage of being protected by guards, something cities cannot guarantee for their own power-making ents. Additionally, you can easily barkguard growing trees, making them immune, something that can also not be done for cosmic beings.
You basically just got another form of defense that is stackable, as well as an easy "press button" for burning down forests. At most you'll have maybe 2 to 3 elders chopped down, which if you dont have a wyrdenwood around to barkguard, you can just nexus guard the saplings.
Will you still hear Brennan and Miakoda shouting curses on CT whenever an elder drops? Yes. Do you have to suffer trying to keep saplings up to grow and become elders for carving? No.
A) You can distort elemental/cosmic (free, given the correct construct), making escape nigh-on impossible. Even with the construct, we can't freely distort Prime, and even if we could, there'd be basically nothing preventing you from simply walking out. You can't really compare the two from a defensive viewpoint.
You seem to think this is a conflict mechanic, when there's been absolutely no conflict generated from it. All that has been generated so far has been griefing; there's basically no way to fight back against someone running into Glomdoring and chopping down a totem, and then running; all we can do is rebuild the totem, which takes a much larger effort than chopping it down does. Your comparison with demons falls short there too; yes, you lose a little bit of power (I don't know how much, but I think I remember between 1 and 5 power depending on the kind of demon killed). You can then wait, and the demon comes back on its own.
C) Fires fall in the same category. You pop in, start a fire, and then leave, letting the fire spread on its own. Time invested starting a fire? A couple of seconds. Time invested in clearing the fire? Upwards of half an hour if it's not caught early, and if a single room is missed (for instance, from the fire spreading), you have to do it all over again. No conflict is generated; the only thing generated is a lot of busywork for those that have to clean the mess up.
A) You can distort elemental/cosmic (free, given the correct construct), making escape nigh-on impossible. Even with the construct, we can't freely distort Prime, and even if we could, there'd be basically nothing preventing you from simply walking out. You can't really compare the two from a defensive viewpoint.
You seem to think this is a conflict mechanic, when there's been absolutely no conflict generated from it. All that has been generated so far has been griefing; there's basically no way to fight back against someone running into Glomdoring and chopping down a totem, and then running; all we can do is rebuild the totem, which takes a much larger effort than chopping it down does. Your comparison with demons falls short there too; yes, you lose a little bit of power (I don't know how much, but I think I remember between 1 and 5 power depending on the kind of demon killed). You can then wait, and the demon comes back on its own.
C) Fires fall in the same category. You pop in, start a fire, and then leave, letting the fire spread on its own. Time invested starting a fire? A couple of seconds. Time invested in clearing the fire? Upwards of half an hour if it's not caught early, and if a single room is missed (for instance, from the fire spreading), you have to do it all over again. No conflict is generated; the only thing generated is a lot of busywork for those that have to clean the mess up.
Silly Ssaliss, you need to be invested in combat to know more of these things.
A) Aetherdocks on cosmic planes have ships there. You get to one, you ascend. Not very nigh-impossible. Additionally, distort costs 500 power, which if you -didnt- have a conquest pool to spend from (which you do), then you can still use some of the extra power you are gaining by totems and still come on top.
It is a conflict mechanism, and has been for some time, but has gone into periods of laxity. There were many a time in the past when both Glom and Seren would have to defend their elder trees from orgs focusing on chopping them. This isnt a -privilege-, and people need to stop forgetting that. You arent being given free power as a gift and being denied it. Elders/totems are something you work for that enhances you org, and it will be countered in some fashion. You also frankly dont lose any power from an Elder being dropped. All you lose is part of the extra power you have been gaining. Killing a cosmic being takes direct power from the Nexus -and- can be done every hour upon respawn.
C) Frankly fire mechanics have always been there, and it was one of the cons of living in a forest (wood is flammable yo). After Dracnari were give a fire-causing mechanic for 1000 credits, it seems only plausabile that this is something the admin want to keep.
Edit: I'll retract the statement of Dracnari fire breath being pointless now
I'm aware that you can still use docks to leave when it's distorted. However, that's a single point of exit, which is far more defendable than the eight exits from Glomdoring. Perhaps "nigh-on impossible" was a bit too strong, but you simply cannot compare the two. And even if they enter a ship, then what? If they're a demigod, they can ascend, yes. Otherwise they'd have to pilot it out, which takes time, carries its own risks, and means they don't have a ship there anymore (and if they have to whistle one in, that is another delay). Also, I never claimed it was completely free; I specifically said "given the correct construct".
Also, if you think that a 500-power discretionary that doesn't put out fires very quickly, nor stops them from spreading, completely invalidates the Dracnari power that also ignites briar walls and melts ice walls from adjacent rooms and increases damage against mobs, then I'm not sure what to say.
And while we're on the subject... What kind of conflict are you looking for, exactly? If you're after fights, there are better ways to get them rather than chopping down trees in Glomdoring when there's no one around to fight you, and putting Glomdoring on fire doesn't really do it either.
A) Aetherdocks are one room, which you know attackers will be gunning for. You can guard it easily enough. As you just demonstrated in-game, nothing we do can effectively stop you from walking out of the forest any way you please, we can't predict which way you'll go, and even if we guess right, you can just go over us or pick another exit. Our only counter is to spend roughly 7000 power to put cut-size guard stacks at every entrance.
It's a conflict mechanic that's lopsided. It heavily, heavily favours an attacker, to the point of allowing a single person to make an entire org feel completely ineffective without any real effort. There's no real counter-play, there's nothing we can do back that gives the same effort->effect ratio, and there's nothing we can do to feasibly stop it. Sure, we -could- raid Nil, but then we need a big group, and Magnagora will respond with a big group and you get a guaranteed fight over it, a fight we can very easily lose. There's no 'losing' in a one-man hit and run raid on a forest, at worst you just get out without chopping/setting a fire.
C) Nexus Storm is 500 power for putting out fires in about 15 minutes, slowing spreading. Frankly it's overpriced in my opinion - a Shaman can do the same thing, better, for a tiny fraction of the cost. 100-150 power for the convenience factor of not needing a Shaman around is the most I'd think it'd be worth.
I'm aware that you can still use docks to leave when it's distorted. However, that's a single point of exit, which is far more defendable than the eight exits from Glomdoring. Perhaps "nigh-on impossible" was a bit too strong, but you simply cannot compare the two. And even if they enter a ship, then what? If they're a demigod, they can ascend, yes. Otherwise they'd have to pilot it out, which takes time, carries its own risks, and means they don't have a ship there anymore (and if they have to whistle one in, that is another delay). Also, I never claimed it was completely free; I specifically said "given the correct construct".
Also, if you think that a 500-power discretionary that doesn't put out fires very quickly, nor stops them from spreading, completely invalidates the Dracnari power that also ignites briar walls and melts ice walls from adjacent rooms and increases damage against mobs, then I'm not sure what to say.
And while we're on the subject... What kind of conflict are you looking for, exactly? If you're after fights, there are better ways to get them rather than chopping down trees in Glomdoring when there's no one around to fight you, and putting Glomdoring on fire doesn't really do it either.
I admit my previous little fire was to see how effective nexus storm was, which surprisingly wasnt as much as I had thought it would be, however it does remove the task of having to go out and put out the fires now. Is fire-starting pointless and griefable? Oh you bet, I dont deny that, but such is the mechanics.
As to why to do such things, well frankly it is one of the few direct ways to harm Glomdoring, or any commune, currently. Killing Daughters/Ladies does little since it costs you nothing. Killing Aspects is more for show since you guys dont exactly harvest essence. The only way to cause some serious harm is removing elder trees, which both is a hassle to reraise as well as denies you a source of power. Fires are just icing frankly.
As for Dracnari, I was stating that if the ability to set a room on fire was gone, then they would be denied a pretty big factor. Setting icewalls and briar walls on fire can be done by anyone with an ignite enchant, and frankly a tinderbox solves pipes (if you dont already have them runed). The breath of fire into a room causes 300 damage. The fire burping into someone's face is acceptable yes, but that is a Demi power, not Demi+, which is suppose to give a secondary benefit (such as Viscanti with a poison cloud). This is, however, another topic for another time.
Like... given the chance Seren and Glom will raid each other into the ground, but as far as I'm aware going after trees right now just isn't done (someone did recently but that was... a special case I suppose). The people that suffer this mechanic are apparently happy to live with a restriction never to use it, it's others that are defending the status quo. Maybe it's different for othersin a commune, but for me I just know how much a pain in the butt this mechanic is so I have no interest in making others deal with it regardless of my skill level.
A) Aetherdocks are one room, which you know attackers will be gunning for. You can guard it easily enough. As you just demonstrated in-game, nothing we do can effectively stop you from walking out of the forest any way you please, we can't predict which way you'll go, and even if we guess right, you can just go over us or pick another exit. Our only counter is to spend roughly 7000 power to put cut-size guard stacks at every entrance.
It's a conflict mechanic that's lopsided. It heavily, heavily favours an attacker, to the point of allowing a single person to make an entire org feel completely ineffective without any real effort. There's no real counter-play, there's nothing we can do back that gives the same effort->effect ratio, and there's nothing we can do to feasibly stop it. Sure, we -could- raid Nil, but then we need a big group, and Magnagora will respond with a big group and you get a guaranteed fight over it, a fight we can very easily lose. There's no 'losing' in a one-man hit and run raid on a forest, at worst you just get out without chopping/setting a fire.
C) Nexus Storm is 500 power for putting out fires in about 15 minutes, slowing spreading. Frankly it's overpriced in my opinion - a Shaman can do the same thing, better, for a tiny fraction of the cost. 100-150 power for the convenience factor of not needing a Shaman around is the most I'd think it'd be worth.
In truth even if you did have guard stacks at every entrance, we'd still find a way in. It isnt hard to bypass guards if you know how. You could I suppose have 15 guards at each entrance with bard songs, which would stop most, but a lot can just tank that and keep going.
No, you can rarely stop someone from leaving/running if they want to on prime, this I dont deny. Admittedly if someone was chopping an elder, you would get a pretty big time-span to come in and thwart them. Using guards to follow you is pretty effective too.
Yes, Shamans are the best and most easiest ways to both counter fires as well as start/spread them.
I'm aware that you can still use docks to leave when it's distorted. However, that's a single point of exit, which is far more defendable than the eight exits from Glomdoring. Perhaps "nigh-on impossible" was a bit too strong, but you simply cannot compare the two. And even if they enter a ship, then what? If they're a demigod, they can ascend, yes. Otherwise they'd have to pilot it out, which takes time, carries its own risks, and means they don't have a ship there anymore (and if they have to whistle one in, that is another delay). Also, I never claimed it was completely free; I specifically said "given the correct construct".
Also, if you think that a 500-power discretionary that doesn't put out fires very quickly, nor stops them from spreading, completely invalidates the Dracnari power that also ignites briar walls and melts ice walls from adjacent rooms and increases damage against mobs, then I'm not sure what to say.
And while we're on the subject... What kind of conflict are you looking for, exactly? If you're after fights, there are better ways to get them rather than chopping down trees in Glomdoring when there's no one around to fight you, and putting Glomdoring on fire doesn't really do it either.
I admit my previous little fire was to see how effective nexus storm was, which surprisingly wasnt as much as I had thought it would be, however it does remove the task of having to go out and put out the fires now. Is fire-starting pointless and griefable? Oh you bet, I dont deny that, but such is the mechanics.
As to why to do such things, well frankly it is one of the few direct ways to harm Glomdoring, or any commune, currently. Killing Daughters/Ladies does little since it costs you nothing. Killing Aspects is more for show since you guys dont exactly harvest essence. The only way to cause some serious harm is removing elder trees, which both is a hassle to reraise as well as denies you a source of power. Fires are just icing frankly.
As for Dracnari, I was stating that if the ability to set a room on fire was gone, then they would be denied a pretty big factor. Setting icewalls and briar walls on fire can be done by anyone with an ignite enchant, and frankly a tinderbox solves pipes (if you dont already have them runed). The breath of fire into a room causes 300 damage. The fire burping into someone's face is acceptable yes, but that is a Demi power, not Demi+, which is suppose to give a secondary benefit (such as Viscanti with a poison cloud). This is, however, another topic for another time.
I believe you are just highlighting now why we need better mechanics, not why the status quo is how things should be.
A) Aetherdocks are one room, which you know attackers will be gunning for. You can guard it easily enough. As you just demonstrated in-game, nothing we do can effectively stop you from walking out of the forest any way you please, we can't predict which way you'll go, and even if we guess right, you can just go over us or pick another exit. Our only counter is to spend roughly 7000 power to put cut-size guard stacks at every entrance.
It's a conflict mechanic that's lopsided. It heavily, heavily favours an attacker, to the point of allowing a single person to make an entire org feel completely ineffective without any real effort. There's no real counter-play, there's nothing we can do back that gives the same effort->effect ratio, and there's nothing we can do to feasibly stop it. Sure, we -could- raid Nil, but then we need a big group, and Magnagora will respond with a big group and you get a guaranteed fight over it, a fight we can very easily lose. There's no 'losing' in a one-man hit and run raid on a forest, at worst you just get out without chopping/setting a fire.
C) Nexus Storm is 500 power for putting out fires in about 15 minutes, slowing spreading. Frankly it's overpriced in my opinion - a Shaman can do the same thing, better, for a tiny fraction of the cost. 100-150 power for the convenience factor of not needing a Shaman around is the most I'd think it'd be worth.
In truth even if you did have guard stacks at every entrance, we'd still find a way in. It isnt hard to bypass guards if you know how. You could I suppose have 15 guards at each entrance with bard songs, which would stop most, but a lot can just tank that and keep going.
No, you can rarely stop someone from leaving/running if they want to on prime, this I dont deny. Admittedly if someone was chopping an elder, you would get a pretty big time-span to come in and thwart them. Using guards to follow you is pretty effective too.
Yes, Shamans are the best and most easiest ways to both counter fires as well as start/spread them.
Except the only time you do it is when there's no one around to defend... as you demonstrated not very long ago at all, when you ran around in Glomdoring when I was the only one around.
Ridiculous. Arcanis is stating outright that he is cutting trees to do nothing but create work for a group of players for griefing's sake. He even has the gall to talk down to Ssaliss, disparaging him for not knowing about combat. Ironically, Ssaliss probably knows more than him just by virtue of Ssaliss not being blinded to his own faults by stomach churning, gag-worthy arrogance. Case in point, we have the assertion that killing daughters do nothing, but in the same breath, killing demons are equated - no, elevated above choppinh trees. Guess what, killing demons do 'nothing' either, they even respawn on their own. But no, it is apparently so god damn griefy that we are even comparing raiding cosmic to raiding prime forests to chop elders. wow.
Why are we even considering keeping this mechanic when we have a clear example of why its existence is an invitation to empower these kind of self-centered, juvenile egomaniacs?
Also, having guards follow you is definitely not very effective, as became very apparent when I summoned 10 guards and flowed to you. Yes, it made you run, but after that we had ten guards at random points in the forest; had I been alone at that point, I wouldn't have been able to stop you from killing them all piecemeal anyway.
1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
It is very strange to assert that killing Daughters does little, while OH NO killing a demon is PAINFUL. Guess what? Demons come back on their own. Daughters (like the other Commune things) actually need to be quested for and take a fair bit of time to restore. One is clearly more painful in terms of time and loss than the other.
Hint: It's not demons.
--------------------------------
Basically, this thread boils down to three camps. 1) Appreciative of the intent, unsure about the implementation; the power cost seems high for what it does, and in the end the implementation means that essentially the totems will be costing power but will continue to provide no defense to the organization, meaning that they have become essentially useless when the power is activated (you'd be better off just not having them at all vs. keeping the power up 24/7). 2) People who just want the whole thing removed. 3) Arcanis, who is arguing against it because he likes the status-quo because he enjoys griefing.
I'm personally in group #1. This seems to be an attempt to address one portion of the problem, but by addressing it in a piecemeal way, it leaves Communes at a disadvantage in comparison to the cities with no compensating advantage (as the power generation is turned into a drain instead).
The simplest solution is: Just make Elders unchoppable. Period. The only people this affects are the people who want to hit and run; for huge swathes of the game time, nobody chopped Elders (Seren and Glom both have an understanding where we do not do this to each other), and for some strange reason the lack of Elder-tree-chopping did not Destroy The Game or bring about the end of the world. There are a lot of other balancing factors that go into totems vs. statues. If you want to do a more in-depth review to try and bring parity that's fine, but for an initial measure, this is one that would be easy, would keep things pretty much exactly the way that they have been for the bulk of the game's history, and remove a grief-tool used by a tiny subset for no real purpose except the enjoyment of messing with others.
I'd like something done about fires, too. The rainstorm ability works, but it seems fairly weak and expensive. I used it and it only conjured a 'light drizzle' - for 500 power, that's not worth it nor what was advertised. A full on rainstorm for 100-150 power, I'd think to be absolutely worth it - 200 power might be stretching it, but I'd still consider it.
As far as fires are concerned, the best change would be persistent area messages once a fire reaches a certain room threshold. After 5 rooms, any place within a radius of 10 rooms get smoke in the room, etc. That way, a fire doesn't have the time to spread all over the place before anyone notices, because it's started in some corner of a huge area.
Frankly, the best weather condition effect for fighting fires when there are fire fighters is low wind, the rain (afaik) only very intermittently puts out fires.
Im not saying I do this for the sake of griefing, I said I do it as per one of the very few ways to actually harm a commune. It may take a 'quest' to summon Daughters/Ladies, but frankly they are a side-bonus that happens. The main point of that quest is to collect fae for power. Daughters/Ladies cost -nothing- when killed, and are if anything just pretty summonable guards you can place in Ethereal to...well frankly I dont see much point to them. I suppose they could be useful in the case of an extra defense against Avatar raids (because lol that happens so often).
I recall not too long ago back-to-back raids on nil for several hours which resulted in roughly 500 power wasted. I'd have to actually calculate it, but you can see -how- actually killing cosmic beings is a way of harming an org, whilst ladies/daughters are not.
Do I think the Elder mechanics need change? Yes. Any simpleton could see it is a pain to maintain, however to just 'Make elders unchoppable' would basically remove the last (aside from Avatars) way to actually harm a commune. No one deserves it that easy.
P.S: I dont frankly see how it would be fair to make Elders unchoppable and simple carvable again, whilst statues can be dismantled and need marble and an artist to remake and then an enchanter to enchant. At the least Carving would have to have its time made as long as enchanting.
That's another silly comparison. Right now, it takes a 10 minute channeled action to take down a statue. It takes two whacks with an axe to take down a totem. It is already imbalanced.
Could also just make it a 10 minute channeled action to chop down an elder, too. No more hit-and-run, another way to address the problem. Since it takes RL days to grow one, it would even make sense (far longer than to build and enchant a statue).
... Im not saying I do this for the sake of griefing, I said I do it as per one of the very few ways to actually harm a commune. ... <previous quote> Is fire-starting pointless and griefable? Oh you bet, I dont deny that, but such is the mechanics. </end previous quote>
... At the least Carving would have to have its time made as long as enchanting. ...
First, I'm not sure if Upkeep can be used on enchanted statues. Let's assume it can't.
Second, I'm not 100% sure on the lifetime of a statue, but I think I've heard 250 months somewhere, so let's go with that.
250 months is roughly 20 IC years. It also happens to be that a totem reverts after a year. This means that the time taken to carve a totem should be roughly 1/20 of the time it takes to erect a statue, if we want them to be equal in that regard, and frankly, I don't think we're that far off. Yes, it takes less than a minute to actually carve a totem, but then there's the whole "having to run around the forest and look for an elder that might or might not exist" bit too. That also does not cover regrowing the totem when it's chopped down, which is far and beyond any time it takes to put up a statue, and it also doesn't take into the account the time it takes to cut a tree down versus the time it takes to take a statue down.
Of course, this whole argument fails since totems aren't the same as statues, neither functionally or in their intent.
Could up the number of chops to cut down a totem significantly and have them warn the commune before they're already chopped down. Sadly this won't do anything for off-peak chopping, but at least if someone is around to defend they could theoretically try to do something.
Another quality of life change for communes might be the ability to bring up an ordered list with exact locations of totems and elders with estimated reversion times.
Yeah, I missed that gem. "Carving needs to be as long as enchanting"? That's absurd. The only person who would suggest that is someone who realizes that things are probably changing from what he wants them to be and wants to force more grief on the organizations he has some bizarre OOC loathing for.
Unless you make statues need to be re-enchanted every 12 RL days, then it's obvious that this just is not something that should be done. Let's say you make totems require a channeled 10 minute action. Let's further say that you have 300 totems. That's 3000 minutes of carving every 12 days. That is fifty hours of player time every 12 days. Doing nothing but standing in front of trees watching them carve.
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Seriously need to reconsider the no playing as an admin policy, because things like this show a lack of fundamental understanding of how the game actually works.
Why not just sell an artifact that lets everyone carve totems of their orgs type? Make money and "solve" the problem better than now, still worse than what was suggested by envoys, but hey, what would they know about this kind of thing? /s
I see @Estarra's attempt to address power parity by creating a power cost, the attempt to address constant harassment by creating a timeout effect, and the attempt to alleviate login pressure by allowing discretionary effect stacking, all of which are commendable - but the solution that has resulted will simply end up missing all three goals and exacerbate underlying problems. I have little interest in carbon copy solutions either, but in this particular issue, I think that is really the best thing to do, and this attempt at an alternate solution only cements that opinion in my head the more I think about it. Trying to go out on a limb and to save an ailing system is fine and all, but this is a system that simply is causing far too much trouble than is worth, and attempts to patch it up, however well-meant the rationale behind the implementations, simply will not be able to address the biggest and most sore issues that have plagued this system for a long time now.
The return on investment for such patchwork solutions is simply too low (in this case, a net negative) to justify trying to save the system. One less conflict system will be a loss, indeed, and a little bit of commune uniqueness will go away if we opt for the envoy report's solution, which I would bet is by no means simple to implement, but the gains, I personally feel, will be well worth the cost. Again, please reconsider.
Sapling (the kind growing up into other trees, not the druid-mesne kind): 1 power
Mature: 2 power
Enormous: 5 power
Elder: 7 power
Totem: 9 power
You can have five saplings in a room, which would give 5 power.
You can have three mature trees in a room, which would give 6 power.
You can have one enormous tree in a room, which would give 5 power.
You can have one elder tree in a room, which would give 7 power.
You can have one totem in a room, which would give 9 power.
Needless to say, the above cannot be combined; you can't have five saplings and a totem, for instance.
You basically just got another form of defense that is stackable, as well as an easy "press button" for burning down forests. At most you'll have maybe 2 to 3 elders chopped down, which if you dont have a wyrdenwood around to barkguard, you can just nexus guard the saplings.
Will you still hear Brennan and Miakoda shouting curses on CT whenever an elder drops? Yes. Do you have to suffer trying to keep saplings up to grow and become elders for carving? No.
C) Fires fall in the same category. You pop in, start a fire, and then leave, letting the fire spread on its own. Time invested starting a fire? A couple of seconds. Time invested in clearing the fire? Upwards of half an hour if it's not caught early, and if a single room is missed (for instance, from the fire spreading), you have to do it all over again. No conflict is generated; the only thing generated is a lot of busywork for those that have to clean the mess up.
Silly Ssaliss, you need to be invested in combat to know more of these things.
A) Aetherdocks on cosmic planes have ships there. You get to one, you ascend. Not very nigh-impossible. Additionally, distort costs 500 power, which if you -didnt- have a conquest pool to spend from (which you do), then you can still use some of the extra power you are gaining by totems and still come on top.
C) Frankly fire mechanics have always been there, and it was one of the cons of living in a forest (wood is flammable yo). After Dracnari were give a fire-causing mechanic for 1000 credits, it seems only plausabile that this is something the admin want to keep.
Edit: I'll retract the statement of Dracnari fire breath being pointless now
Also, if you think that a 500-power discretionary that doesn't put out fires very quickly, nor stops them from spreading, completely invalidates the Dracnari power that also ignites briar walls and melts ice walls from adjacent rooms and increases damage against mobs, then I'm not sure what to say.
And while we're on the subject... What kind of conflict are you looking for, exactly? If you're after fights, there are better ways to get them rather than chopping down trees in Glomdoring when there's no one around to fight you, and putting Glomdoring on fire doesn't really do it either.
I admit my previous little fire was to see how effective nexus storm was, which surprisingly wasnt as much as I had thought it would be, however it does remove the task of having to go out and put out the fires now. Is fire-starting pointless and griefable? Oh you bet, I dont deny that, but such is the mechanics.
As to why to do such things, well frankly it is one of the few direct ways to harm Glomdoring, or any commune, currently. Killing Daughters/Ladies does little since it costs you nothing. Killing Aspects is more for show since you guys dont exactly harvest essence. The only way to cause some serious harm is removing elder trees, which both is a hassle to reraise as well as denies you a source of power. Fires are just icing frankly.
As for Dracnari, I was stating that if the ability to set a room on fire was gone, then they would be denied a pretty big factor. Setting icewalls and briar walls on fire can be done by anyone with an ignite enchant, and frankly a tinderbox solves pipes (if you dont already have them runed). The breath of fire into a room causes 300 damage. The fire burping into someone's face is acceptable yes, but that is a Demi power, not Demi+, which is suppose to give a secondary benefit (such as Viscanti with a poison cloud). This is, however, another topic for another time.
In truth even if you did have guard stacks at every entrance, we'd still find a way in. It isnt hard to bypass guards if you know how. You could I suppose have 15 guards at each entrance with bard songs, which would stop most, but a lot can just tank that and keep going.
No, you can rarely stop someone from leaving/running if they want to on prime, this I dont deny. Admittedly if someone was chopping an elder, you would get a pretty big time-span to come in and thwart them. Using guards to follow you is pretty effective too.
Yes, Shamans are the best and most easiest ways to both counter fires as well as start/spread them.
Except the only time you do it is when there's no one around to defend... as you demonstrated not very long ago at all, when you ran around in Glomdoring when I was the only one around.
Why are we even considering keeping this mechanic when we have a clear example of why its existence is an invitation to empower these kind of self-centered, juvenile egomaniacs?
Hint: It's not demons.
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Basically, this thread boils down to three camps.
1) Appreciative of the intent, unsure about the implementation; the power cost seems high for what it does, and in the end the implementation means that essentially the totems will be costing power but will continue to provide no defense to the organization, meaning that they have become essentially useless when the power is activated (you'd be better off just not having them at all vs. keeping the power up 24/7).
2) People who just want the whole thing removed.
3) Arcanis, who is arguing against it because he likes the status-quo because he enjoys griefing.
I'm personally in group #1. This seems to be an attempt to address one portion of the problem, but by addressing it in a piecemeal way, it leaves Communes at a disadvantage in comparison to the cities with no compensating advantage (as the power generation is turned into a drain instead).
Frankly, the best weather condition effect for fighting fires when there are fire fighters is low wind, the rain (afaik) only very intermittently puts out fires.
Im not saying I do this for the sake of griefing, I said I do it as per one of the very few ways to actually harm a commune. It may take a 'quest' to summon Daughters/Ladies, but frankly they are a side-bonus that happens. The main point of that quest is to collect fae for power. Daughters/Ladies cost -nothing- when killed, and are if anything just pretty summonable guards you can place in Ethereal to...well frankly I dont see much point to them. I suppose they could be useful in the case of an extra defense against Avatar raids (because lol that happens so often).
I recall not too long ago back-to-back raids on nil for several hours which resulted in roughly 500 power wasted. I'd have to actually calculate it, but you can see -how- actually killing cosmic beings is a way of harming an org, whilst ladies/daughters are not.
Do I think the Elder mechanics need change? Yes. Any simpleton could see it is a pain to maintain, however to just 'Make elders unchoppable' would basically remove the last (aside from Avatars) way to actually harm a commune. No one deserves it that easy.
P.S: I dont frankly see how it would be fair to make Elders unchoppable and simple carvable again, whilst statues can be dismantled and need marble and an artist to remake and then an enchanter to enchant. At the least Carving would have to have its time made as long as enchanting.
Complementary Drag gif
Could also just make it a 10 minute channeled action to chop down an elder, too. No more hit-and-run, another way to address the problem. Since it takes RL days to grow one, it would even make sense (far longer than to build and enchant a statue).
Second, I'm not 100% sure on the lifetime of a statue, but I think I've heard 250 months somewhere, so let's go with that.
250 months is roughly 20 IC years. It also happens to be that a totem reverts after a year. This means that the time taken to carve a totem should be roughly 1/20 of the time it takes to erect a statue, if we want them to be equal in that regard, and frankly, I don't think we're that far off. Yes, it takes less than a minute to actually carve a totem, but then there's the whole "having to run around the forest and look for an elder that might or might not exist" bit too. That also does not cover regrowing the totem when it's chopped down, which is far and beyond any time it takes to put up a statue, and it also doesn't take into the account the time it takes to cut a tree down versus the time it takes to take a statue down.
Of course, this whole argument fails since totems aren't the same as statues, neither functionally or in their intent.
Unless you make statues need to be re-enchanted every 12 RL days, then it's obvious that this just is not something that should be done. Let's say you make totems require a channeled 10 minute action. Let's further say that you have 300 totems. That's 3000 minutes of carving every 12 days. That is fifty hours of player time every 12 days. Doing nothing but standing in front of trees watching them carve.
Absolutely, totally, bat* crazy.