I'd been brainstorming faction ideas, ( I know I get carried away), but in retrospect, the faction divisions actually seemed to most easily split along the three government styles: One religious/ceremonial faction, one conquest faction, and one 'commercial' (ish) faction. It might be a basic structure to work off of: It does produce easy divisions for most of the orgs.
Without names, Celest would get: A faction promoting the light(religious), A navy faction protecting the city and seas (conquest), A faction trying to revive the empire and its lore (commericial/questing)
It wouldn't be a stretch to extending the government types into factions as well, and it puts some of the 'mirrored opposites' theme into the orgs. Just some thoughts.
So, I guess this got forgotten about with the event and because it's holiday season, but I'm going to post anyway.
I have to say, as much as instinct makes me want to clutch onto the Nihilists and make them pry me away while sobbing hysterically, I don't see this idea as a bad thing! I actually think it would be a super positive thing for Magnagora.
A few comments though- I don't like the idea of having one GM for the coalition (especially if they would still be a council member as well, I don't know if it was discussed whether they would be divorced from this aspect or not) I think one person responsible for a larger amount of people could be a really negative way of doing it, due to stress, holidays, real life, etc. Obviously we don't just want to recreate guilds, with more people, so maybe we can look at alternatives to the idea of a single leader?
I think one major positive of this idea is that the coalitions could be more flexible. I don't believe in the concept of a one size fits all in relation to cities and other orgs. It would allow cities to have discussions with the admin about where they see their org going, and develop strong connections to their respective coalitions without dealing with so much anxiety.
The biggest issue I can see, honestly, is to make coalitions relevant to the city. You have guilds that currently have mechanical powers than others do not have. To break down the lines like this, some utility should be added to each coalition to make membership have a purpose. Such as one coalition might have access to more cultural abilities, one might have particular quests they can do to add something to their city, etc. (Obviously not great ideas right now, it'd need to be looked at more and discussed by someone who is better at details than I am) This could also lead into other cool ideas, like maybe vernals not being so damn linked to just domoths plzthnx. It could lead to RP rewards, writing rewards and combat rewards. You could give coalitions a chance to be appealing to people for reasons other than just 'hey, more people to play with!'
The biggest issue I can see, honestly, is to make coalitions relevant to the city. You have guilds that currently have mechanical powers than others do not have. To break down the lines like this, some utility should be added to each coalition to make membership have a purpose. Such as one coalition might have access to more cultural abilities, one might have particular quests they can do to add something to their city, etc. (Obviously not great ideas right now, it'd need to be looked at more and discussed by someone who is better at details than I am) This could also lead into other cool ideas, like maybe vernals not being so damn linked to just domoths plzthnx. It could lead to RP rewards, writing rewards and combat rewards. You could give coalitions a chance to be appealing to people for reasons other than just 'hey, more people to play with!'
I'm rambling now though, sooo.
I feel that all factions really should have the same chance at any mechanics in place, but maybe they could have tech tree (shh, I like them) developments that they can build over time that differentiate them. But I also agree that they should in some way provide something to the commune/city.
Question .....
Probs totes answered already. Who would handle the five billion things you can be enemied to in a city/commune ? Would they just carry over or everyone unenemied and what not
Question .....
Probs totes answered already. Who would handle the five billion things you can be enemied to in a city/commune ? Would they just carry over or everyone unenemied and what not
If we went with the proposed system, most likely all planar associated things (elemental lords/avatars/cosmic smobs) would all be handled by the Ministry of Security. Current guild enemy statuses would be removed but the new factions would be able to enemy.
If people have better suggestions, we are open to them.
Well, the other ovbious option I can think of is to assign them to some of the new factions/coalitions...but then that is kinda like locking one of them into being the cosmic protectors, one the elemental protectors, and so on. So I think @Zvoltz solution is the better one.
It might be better to have an enterprising Ephemeral assigned to go through the guild enemy lists and just blanket enemy everyone by Divine Mandate, then when the guilds are depreciated, whoever turns off the lights does the guild equivalent of UNENEMY ALL just so no one is missed that might pose a security risk. Another question arises though, in that who will the guards be tuned to? As it stands they're tuned to enemies of the originating guild, aren't they?
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
I don't think guards are tuned to guild enemies, only commune/city enemies, so nothing would change there. I also assume the summoning/upkeeping duties would transfer from the guilds to the Security Ministry, so you wouldn't have to worry about which faction summons which guards.
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I like the idea that each coalition would have some roles/responsibilities. Similar to how the Serenguard had the maintenance of the Magnolia Lock.The could easily be quests to maintain the blessing of Supernals, to honor Ur'lach, to complete fae rituals for Maeve and the like. Another idea is to give certain abilties, like totemcarving, to all members of a class.
Another possible idea would be to tie tradeskills or thirdskills to faction and not class, or to allow for some extra bonus skill/tradeskill for each faction. Two examples: The Nintoba Tribe (a Seren military faction) might get access to the Tattoo skillset. This would make for warriors in tribal tattoos rather than in knight's armor, which would fit the theme well. In Magnagora, the Machina Maxima (An Economic/Research/Quest Faction) might get an option for any class to select forging, leading to a geomancer in a suit of steampunk armor rather than robes, which would be cool and on theme.
I'm honestly, not sure about balance considerations.It would be tricky, but it would make some class skill combos guild specific, without limiting the basic classes in each guild.. So a Forger-Geomancer would only be available in one Mag Faction, while another may allow a rituals(necromancy)-Monk only in the Church of Nil. This could distinguish the factions positively (by what is possible) rather than negatively (what you're not allowed to do)
So I'm think just an example: The Winter Court (Religous/Fae Seren) could all get access to Illusions, the Tribe (Military Seren) could get tattoos, and the Spirit Circle (quest/outward expansion Seren faction) could get Shamanism, just as an example.
Glomdoring might give one faction Stealth, another Totems(Crow), and the last Dreamweaving as options, leading to unique combos like the Shadowdancer Assassin who schemes in the Fae Courts, and the Nightmare Warrior steeped in dark dreams become possible.
All of these are theme-based, top-down ideas. I am not the one to talk to about balance, so feedback on that would be nice (maybe some combos might be too strong or too weak, I'm not sure) It would also open up a myriad of new 'combos' to play with, which would be fun for theme and exploring, but might be a bitch to balance.
I think allowing non-standard skill combinations would be a bad road to go down, for one it would mean skills need balancing against even more combinations, some that would be near useless and others that might have the potential to be incredibly over powered.
It could also lead to a similar situation that at least used to pop up here, guilds being more popular because of the skills they offer.
That said, actual functional things that they can do is a different matter, such as adding totemcarving or a limited mulch/sapling(prime your org territory only) to a faction that does tend the forest would add to their rp. You don't need to take this away from the druids, but it would mean anyone in the faction could help out.
It sounds fun to mix skills, but the balance issue as I do the math has too much chaos to it. It might lead to unintentional imbalance and skill chasers.. despite how cool some combos would be.
It would be nice if there were 'ribbons' useless thematic abilities like the totem carving that could be used without unbalancing combat
So as someone playing again, I think this is a great idea for a variety of reasons. For one, it eliminates the huge amount of division created by creating a guild for every archetype that exists and allows the playerbase to consolidated as they once were. I vastly prefer this solution over forcing organizations into alliances rather than allowing the players themselves to forge those alliances. Player-based politics is a big draw for IRE in general and I think Lusternia has gotten to a point where ideologies are sometimes even moved to the side by organizations if a pressing need for a diplomatic situation requires it.
I've read a few complaints in that people will be upset because all of their roleplay will be gone. As someone who comes from a variety of roleplay intensive MUDs, including IRE's own Aetolia, your character's roleplay, personality, and what have you isn't determined by your guild. It's in fact one small aspect of their overall personality. For example, as a real world comparison, there are soldiers out there who literally eat, sleep, and breathe Army values but they're incredibly rare. Whereas your average soldier is just adopting the Army values to their own life, MAYBE finding meaning to them, or really just joined the military to make ends meet and values are secondary. Realistically, most characters should fall under that spectrum. Your Paladin probably doesn't even have to like Celest, much less care about its citizenry, but perhaps they view that Celest offers the best possible outlook for the Basin or perhaps they're just looking for a power to help make ends meet. Characters who completely mold themselves to be all of the values that their guild espouses become boring cliches and more importantly, it means that your character has no personality for themselves and draws entirely from their guild, city, or order. Again, that's poor roleplay in my opinion.
Now, on the subject of the new guilds, I've seen other IRE games do this with the renaissance in Achaea, multiclass in Aetolia brought forth converging a few guilds, and Imperian is in the process of consolidating guilds for the same issues that Lusternia is currently having. One thing I would encourage, as @Haghan suggested, is some kind of mechanical responsibility that the guild is in charge of. Not everyone identifies with "intangible" roleplay and need some kind of mechanic (like maintaining the military, doing affairs around the city, etc) to draw them to their organization. I think Lusternia has been historically best by tying each of the guilds to a respective plane and making it their responsibility to safeguard and take care of. It gives them something tangible to relate to, defend, preserve, etc. Since guilds are KIND of losing that aspect, I think giving them some other kind of responsibility throughout their city would give them more definition and flavor. However, I will state this: roleplay can easily be replaced or created by new players. These new guilds would just be a new avenue of pursuing that and if anything, players will have MORE creative freedom with the new possibilities. You'd have more pull to direct the course of the world's history and how your guild organically develops and grows.
As for mixing skills, not a huge fan because it makes balancing a giant headache. There will be certain combinations that are too powerful and you can't downgrade them without making other skills weak to compensate. It'll lead to a roller coaster nightmare in terms of combat.
Back on the subject of player-made alliances, if population still continues to be an issue, I'd advise taking treaties to a mechanical level like Aetolia did with the TREATY command. Organizations in Aetolia can create non-aggression treaties and what have you with the TREATY command that anyone in the city can view and there's a formal signing process between the leaders of said organizations. There's announcements and what have you when something is broken with the TREATY command to make it more official. I would go a step further to where if organizations commit to an alliance, both cities will share an Alliance channel that anyone from those organizations can hear. You can create AHELP's, determine the name of the Alliance, and go from there. Perhaps even some conflict mechanics to determine the strength of it all by comparison to other alliances.
So. I don't feel like reading through all the posts. Is this still a thing?
One idea I'm going to throw out is that guilds are maintained as an NPC only organization. The guild tutors become the GMs, the halls are made open to the public and picking the class of an associated guild gives you access to a channel for that class shared among the org (this is to help with skill specific questions and the like not as a guild replacement). The guilds would not have any ranks/political power or be a thing as far as players are concerned. It's just an NPC-only org and everybody of that class in a given org shares channel automatically.
This frees factions to be political/ideological entities separate from guilds, although they can claim influence or inspiration from the guilds. It also means that for instance the guards are still members of whatever guild they're hired from, they are just hired by any of the factions.
I really, really like that idea, actually. If it could be done organically with whatever is already in the planning stages (assuming, of course, anything here actually is just yet), I would love to see this.
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I don't think that's a great idea. Instead of transitioning and transforming the old guilds into new organizations that preserve the feel and lore of the org, the guilds still exist... but everyone is kicked out of them, sucks to be us. If they still exist, it will be hard to contrive a decent reason that players are suddenly not allowed to participate in the guilds they have built and maintained for years.
I don't think that's a great idea. Instead of transitioning and transforming the old guilds into new organizations that preserve the feel and lore of the org, the guilds still exist... but everyone is kicked out of them, sucks to be us. If they still exist, it will be hard to contrive a decent reason that players are suddenly not allowed to participate in the guilds they have built and maintained for years.
However, it does solve the problem of what to do with current guildhalls, along with how we're supposed to learn our class skills. There could still be some RP involved with the guilds, such as any special advancement tasks that the guild may have created. But otherwise, this keeps all of the things that we've built up over the years, along with giving a purpose to the tutors.
There's no real reason we cannot keep the Guildhalls simply as a flavour thing. 'This is where the Nihilists guild was founded, and where they practised. Veritus still maintains the guild hall, and any who seek to learn skills to further their connection to Nil may seek him out.' I don't see -any- reason to restrict access to said guildhalls.
1) First, I'lll assume three factions one close-ish to each government style (Religious, Military, Commercial)
2) Each faction would get a quest, similar to the Flame/Drums etc quest, to build up a power pool (Prestige Pool as a temp name) for the faction. Certain other activities and quests could add to the pool. (Perhaps raids and other offensive quests could reduce Prestige). Example: Members of the Religious section of Glomdoring might build influence within Maeve's court (blackmail, intimidation, bribery etc); Members of the Seren military might offer trophies to the Spirit-Warrior ancestors.
3) During competitive events, (Flares, Nodes, Revolts), Prestige Point could be spent to enhance your side (or counter the effects of another side), Different levels of bonuses could available to different org ranks. Maintaining and using Prestige would be an exercise in resource management. Example: During a revolt in Shanthmark, the Seren Military spends a large amount of prestige to Impress the village, making Seren influence easier. In response, the Religious faction of Glomdoring uses its Prestige with Maeve to inspire resistance, countering the Seren. Meanwhile, the Celestian Commercialists try to bribe the elders of Paavik. The Magnagoran military can counter... but they prefer to save their prestige to power stronger weapons during the next flare. In preparation for the flare, they may gather extra souls (or whatever) or raid centaurs in a counter quest to try to ding the Seren Prestige before it can be used.
This could add an extra layer of depth and unity to the factions. Also some variations (All Maybes) - Certain factions are better at different contests (military at flares, religious at revolts etc) - Factions could have a rock-paper-scissor style influence Military might can be resisted through religious fervor, religious fervor can be undermined with economic incentive, and economic incentive can be overwhelmed by military might. -Different levels of prestige could buy different effects: A bonus to influence, extended time for a revolt, granting passive bonuses to allies, spawning NPCs in villages, Peacing or Unpeacing (obviously at high levels), empowering ship weapons on a flare, just some possibilities - Perhaps different faction types have different options, (i.e. only religious factions could force peace) - Different spheres/villages might be weak or resistant to different influences. (maybe costs change) - Factions may have a limit to how many influences they can lay down (or pay penalties for multiple focuses (such as the Mountain Wars) This could force people to seek allies.
Example: In the battle for Dairuchi and Talthos, Talthos is succeptable to commerical influence, while Dairuchi is easily swayed by religious influence. The Magnagoran military has few active members at the time, so it spends a huge chunk of Prestige to summon undead shock troopers to patrol Dairuchi. The Celest religious faction could encourage the people to drive out the troopers, (cheaper as it is Dairuchi), then lays down its own blessing on the village. Meanwhile, seeking more time in Talthos, Glomdoring's commercialists pay a bunch of biased beggars to join the village, giving them time to recover.. until some military force steps up to drive them out. The Seren military is considering this.. but is the prestige cost worth it.. or shall they save it for later?
This could add some dynamic interactions to the different contests, as well as encouraging people to do various quests for Prestige while giving them tangible effects. It would add roleplay and encourage all factions in an org to be part of the org.
On the one hand, I love the Aquamancers and their lore, but I think in order to survive things need to change.
Covenants were a great idea.
I feel like guildhalls should remain, perhaps as something only accessible to members of the organization they are linked to. Keep the different class trainers in them. Keep the libraries and all of the lore that goes along with it.
Merge the guilds. In the case of Celest, there's no real reason why Celestines and Cantors couldn't be merged, etc. Instead of builds being all about one specific skillset, make them about the lore. Tidal Lords, Supernals, etc.
I haven't quite fleshed out all of my ideas, but this would be the start.
Instead of merging, it should really be founding new orgs and then letting people decide which one to pick based on their strongest core roleplay principle. Otherwise if your two guilds are small, they're going to remain small and you're going to have the question of 'oh, but which ex GM are we going to have as the new GM'. Or if one is smaller than the other, they're at a disadvantage based on which roleplay was stronger and will therefore dominate the new org.
I think the best option is going to be the admin picking a small group of people from each org to discuss new ideas with them and establish the core ideas of each new org BEFORE populating them, to prevent situations such as the bard/ninja guilds that have less established roleplay than the others simply due to having no strong identity established beforehand, and some (such as Cacophony) experiencing a change of leadership within weeks of the guild being established.
I mean, I love the idea of the Cacophony and Nihilists being merged, but like... the Nihilists have more active people. Our vote weight could potentially count for more and we could simply take over without even intending to.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I agree that merging could be about the worst way to go about this process. If we want results, replicating covenants in a slightly different manner isn't going to provide them.
It's also an easy way for one guild to muscle out another and monopolize the leadership roles upon release, and an easy way for disgruntled anti-merger leaders to sway the new organization heavily towards their old guild (which I can totally see happening). Merge Nihilists with Cacophony, you basically get the Nihilists.
I haven't been on much as of late cause Christmas and New Years and family and burning money on what we call fireworks, but I've been trying to keep up on the fallout (or lack of it) after Guardian in Hallifax. If the admins decide to go through with the Overhaul, they should really look into the Board of Directors news and hallifax sentiments going on right now, because this is fertile grounds for a revolution of leadership and governance.
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
I really want to join the Cogs in the Smog (I'm technically a member since the dress incident) and attempt to pull off the Lord of Rust test and roll with their whole 'we are the sixth guild' claims. But some of the Lord of Rust tasks are actually impossible to pull off, so.
I'm personally not very thrilled about this idea. I don't really have any ideas that would be less controversial, but the Nihilists have been a huge part of my character and joining them was basically the entire reason I came back to Lusternia after a break of several years. I'm not sure how I'll feel about sticking around after.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited January 2016
Nothing personal to anyone, but the "I'm not going to play if the guilds change," thing really rubs me the wrong way. If you are unable to find something enjoyable in the game outside of the one guild you are familiar with, you just aren't looking hard enough. Or at all, it's not difficult to find new ideas or people to enjoy. The world is robust enough that I believe this 100%.
I just don't get it, the Demon Lords aren't going anywhere, and the Nihilists are nothing but an ever changing group of people that follow a mechanic that is not being changed nor removed. Hell, the Nihilists themselves are not the same guild they were several years ago, and that guild was not the same guild it was years before that when I was one of them.
That's the thing with player run orgs, they change constantly. Leadership styles and activity have enormous influence on how the guilds actually function, and I just don't believe there are huge segments of the population that only enjoy the game not because how they play it or who they play with, but because of background text that isn't actually being changed.
There's nothing in SD lore explicitly saying it has to be ran as a strict, rigid, reverent monarchy that favors women over men and the queen is the actual chosen of Mother Night, but that's exactly how I ran things. Siam runs things very differently.
If everyone goes into this with the mindset that they just aren't going to enjoy it, the only for sure thing is that you won't enjoy it.
Nothing personal to anyone, but the "I'm not going to play if the guilds change," thing really rubs me the wrong way. If you are unable to find something enjoyable in the game outside of the one guild you are familiar with, you just aren't looking hard enough. Or at all, it's not difficult to find new ideas or people to enjoy. The world is robust enough that I believe this 100%.
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If everyone goes into this with the mindset that they just aren't going to enjoy it, the only for sure thing is that you won't enjoy it.
I completely agree with you.
To add to it, I think that if there are already sentiments for certain orgs (such as Hallifax's RP of the Collective, and what @Kiradawea said) then perhaps they should be the first to go forward with it, because lore wise there's already something there. I'm not saying make them the guinea pigs, but it could lead into a broader acceptance.
I will be completely honest, half the reason why I never bothered to advance in the Nekotai on my alt was because there was literally only ever two people around. Yes, arguably, the same goes for the Aquamancers, but I've got a lot more history with them. I know all of the people. And yes, if someone really wants to be in the guild they'll stay no matter what, but that's generally not new players.
One thing I would like to encourage the administration into keeping in the new guild system, regardless of what they plan on doing with it, is keeping the Guild Administrator and Guild Champion positions in some shape or form. I feel that they are a part of what makes Lusternia unique by comparison to the rest of Iron Realms and unilateralism isn't always a good idea. That doesn't mean they need to hold leadership positions like they do now, but I would advise that they remain as something that can be appointed. GA remains the 'Head of Novices' as they are now and GC remains as someone appointed to be that guild's head fighter. The GC can tie into the Security system and we can keep the artifacts that I feel add a lot of flavor and identity to guilds. It can certainly be helpful in setting forth some new identity for the new guilds when they come.
The only issue I can really see with GC is that, since guilds will no longer be tied to a class, is how you'd exactly handle some GCs. I'd advise doing it in a way that either the guilds or the city/commune can say: This guy/gal is our strongest in the Shadowdancer class. We want him to have the orb. This guy is the strongest Ebonguard that we have, give him the helm.
Maintain the RESCUE mechanics, but expand them for city-wide or keep it to guild only. Edit: Thinking on this, I'd probably say expand it to city-wide so that guilds aren't necessarily pressured to getting the city to name someone in their guild as a champion just so they can have access to RESCUE. Downgrade RESCUE in some format (possibly with a delay or power cost) though since that would make it incredibly powerful (and probably too much so).
I know a lot of people hate some of the Champ items, but they really do add a lot of flavor that no other game has. I'd really hate to see Patchou, Shuck, Grim, and the frustratingly annoying Handmaiden go.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I've always been torn about the champ pets. On the one hand, they are so cool. They add a certain air to the champion to have this unique guild beast that is loyal only to them. On the other hand, they are balance nightmares.
I'd like to see the guild leadership structure stay but with some customization. I've always enjoyed the idea of champions and what not.
I've always been torn about the champ pets. On the one hand, they are so cool. They add a certain air to the champion to have this unique guild beast that is loyal only to them. On the other hand, they are balance nightmares.
I'd like to see the guild leadership structure stay but with some customization. I've always enjoyed the idea of champions and what not.
In some cases, I think balance nightmares are somewhat acceptable because they lend to credence to the concept of asymmetrical balance which is what games like Lusternia are based off of. You never want things to be perfectly balanced as perfect balance leads to a situation with games like Starcraft or Chess. There's no individuality or 'flavor' behind any of the classes if everyone has the same functionality. It's why even though some class skills really, REALLY annoyed me in the past (like Crucify, Inquisition, Trueheal, etc.) I'd never try to delete them outright because they give flavour to the respective organizations/guilds/classes and make them unique from each other. Champ Pets follow the same philosophy in my opinion.
Comments
Without names, Celest would get: A faction promoting the light(religious), A navy faction protecting the city and seas (conquest), A faction trying to revive the empire and its lore (commericial/questing)
It wouldn't be a stretch to extending the government types into factions as well, and it puts some of the 'mirrored opposites' theme into the orgs. Just some thoughts.
A few comments though- I don't like the idea of having one GM for the coalition (especially if they would still be a council member as well, I don't know if it was discussed whether they would be divorced from this aspect or not) I think one person responsible for a larger amount of people could be a really negative way of doing it, due to stress, holidays, real life, etc. Obviously we don't just want to recreate guilds, with more people, so maybe we can look at alternatives to the idea of a single leader?
I think one major positive of this idea is that the coalitions could be more flexible. I don't believe in the concept of a one size fits all in relation to cities and other orgs. It would allow cities to have discussions with the admin about where they see their org going, and develop strong connections to their respective coalitions without dealing with so much anxiety.
The biggest issue I can see, honestly, is to make coalitions relevant to the city. You have guilds that currently have mechanical powers than others do not have. To break down the lines like this, some utility should be added to each coalition to make membership have a purpose. Such as one coalition might have access to more cultural abilities, one might have particular quests they can do to add something to their city, etc. (Obviously not great ideas right now, it'd need to be looked at more and discussed by someone who is better at details than I am) This could also lead into other cool ideas, like maybe vernals not being so damn linked to just domoths plzthnx. It could lead to RP rewards, writing rewards and combat rewards. You could give coalitions a chance to be appealing to people for reasons other than just 'hey, more people to play with!'
I'm rambling now though, sooo.
If people have better suggestions, we are open to them.
Another possible idea would be to tie tradeskills or thirdskills to faction and not class, or to allow for some extra bonus skill/tradeskill for each faction. Two examples: The Nintoba Tribe (a Seren military faction) might get access to the Tattoo skillset. This would make for warriors in tribal tattoos rather than in knight's armor, which would fit the theme well. In Magnagora, the Machina Maxima (An Economic/Research/Quest Faction) might get an option for any class to select forging, leading to a geomancer in a suit of steampunk armor rather than robes, which would be cool and on theme.
I'm honestly, not sure about balance considerations.It would be tricky, but it would make some class skill combos guild specific, without limiting the basic classes in each guild.. So a Forger-Geomancer would only be available in one Mag Faction, while another may allow a rituals(necromancy)-Monk only in the Church of Nil. This could distinguish the factions positively (by what is possible) rather than negatively (what you're not allowed to do)
So I'm think just an example: The Winter Court (Religous/Fae Seren) could all get access to Illusions, the Tribe (Military Seren) could get tattoos, and the Spirit Circle (quest/outward expansion Seren faction) could get Shamanism, just as an example.
Glomdoring might give one faction Stealth, another Totems(Crow), and the last Dreamweaving as options, leading to unique combos like the Shadowdancer Assassin who schemes in the Fae Courts, and the Nightmare Warrior steeped in dark dreams become possible.
All of these are theme-based, top-down ideas. I am not the one to talk to about balance, so feedback on that would be nice (maybe some combos might be too strong or too weak, I'm not sure) It would also open up a myriad of new 'combos' to play with, which would be fun for theme and exploring, but might be a bitch to balance.
I think allowing non-standard skill combinations would be a bad road to go down, for one it would mean skills need balancing against even more combinations, some that would be near useless and others that might have the potential to be incredibly over powered.
It could also lead to a similar situation that at least used to pop up here, guilds being more popular because of the skills they offer.
That said, actual functional things that they can do is a different matter, such as adding totemcarving or a limited mulch/sapling(prime your org territory only) to a faction that does tend the forest would add to their rp. You don't need to take this away from the druids, but it would mean anyone in the faction could help out.
It sounds fun to mix skills, but the balance issue as I do the math has too much chaos to it. It might lead to unintentional imbalance and skill chasers.. despite how cool some combos would be.
It would be nice if there were 'ribbons' useless thematic abilities like the totem carving that could be used without unbalancing combat
I've read a few complaints in that people will be upset because all of their roleplay will be gone. As someone who comes from a variety of roleplay intensive MUDs, including IRE's own Aetolia, your character's roleplay, personality, and what have you isn't determined by your guild. It's in fact one small aspect of their overall personality. For example, as a real world comparison, there are soldiers out there who literally eat, sleep, and breathe Army values but they're incredibly rare. Whereas your average soldier is just adopting the Army values to their own life, MAYBE finding meaning to them, or really just joined the military to make ends meet and values are secondary. Realistically, most characters should fall under that spectrum. Your Paladin probably doesn't even have to like Celest, much less care about its citizenry, but perhaps they view that Celest offers the best possible outlook for the Basin or perhaps they're just looking for a power to help make ends meet. Characters who completely mold themselves to be all of the values that their guild espouses become boring cliches and more importantly, it means that your character has no personality for themselves and draws entirely from their guild, city, or order. Again, that's poor roleplay in my opinion.
Now, on the subject of the new guilds, I've seen other IRE games do this with the renaissance in Achaea, multiclass in Aetolia brought forth converging a few guilds, and Imperian is in the process of consolidating guilds for the same issues that Lusternia is currently having. One thing I would encourage, as @Haghan suggested, is some kind of mechanical responsibility that the guild is in charge of. Not everyone identifies with "intangible" roleplay and need some kind of mechanic (like maintaining the military, doing affairs around the city, etc) to draw them to their organization. I think Lusternia has been historically best by tying each of the guilds to a respective plane and making it their responsibility to safeguard and take care of. It gives them something tangible to relate to, defend, preserve, etc. Since guilds are KIND of losing that aspect, I think giving them some other kind of responsibility throughout their city would give them more definition and flavor. However, I will state this: roleplay can easily be replaced or created by new players. These new guilds would just be a new avenue of pursuing that and if anything, players will have MORE creative freedom with the new possibilities. You'd have more pull to direct the course of the world's history and how your guild organically develops and grows.
As for mixing skills, not a huge fan because it makes balancing a giant headache. There will be certain combinations that are too powerful and you can't downgrade them without making other skills weak to compensate. It'll lead to a roller coaster nightmare in terms of combat.
Back on the subject of player-made alliances, if population still continues to be an issue, I'd advise taking treaties to a mechanical level like Aetolia did with the TREATY command. Organizations in Aetolia can create non-aggression treaties and what have you with the TREATY command that anyone in the city can view and there's a formal signing process between the leaders of said organizations. There's announcements and what have you when something is broken with the TREATY command to make it more official. I would go a step further to where if organizations commit to an alliance, both cities will share an Alliance channel that anyone from those organizations can hear. You can create AHELP's, determine the name of the Alliance, and go from there. Perhaps even some conflict mechanics to determine the strength of it all by comparison to other alliances.
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They did say if it goes ahead they won't delete the guildhalls, but probably make them open to the org.
1) First, I'lll assume three factions one close-ish to each government style (Religious, Military, Commercial)
2) Each faction would get a quest, similar to the Flame/Drums etc quest, to build up a power pool (Prestige Pool as a temp name) for the faction. Certain other activities and quests could add to the pool. (Perhaps raids and other offensive quests could reduce Prestige).
Example: Members of the Religious section of Glomdoring might build influence within Maeve's court (blackmail, intimidation, bribery etc); Members of the Seren military might offer trophies to the Spirit-Warrior ancestors.
3) During competitive events, (Flares, Nodes, Revolts), Prestige Point could be spent to enhance your side (or counter the effects of another side), Different levels of bonuses could available to different org ranks. Maintaining and using Prestige would be an exercise in resource management.
Example: During a revolt in Shanthmark, the Seren Military spends a large amount of prestige to Impress the village, making Seren influence easier. In response, the Religious faction of Glomdoring uses its Prestige with Maeve to inspire resistance, countering the Seren. Meanwhile, the Celestian Commercialists try to bribe the elders of Paavik. The Magnagoran military can counter... but they prefer to save their prestige to power stronger weapons during the next flare. In preparation for the flare, they may gather extra souls (or whatever) or raid centaurs in a counter quest to try to ding the Seren Prestige before it can be used.
This could add an extra layer of depth and unity to the factions. Also some variations (All Maybes)
- Certain factions are better at different contests (military at flares, religious at revolts etc)
- Factions could have a rock-paper-scissor style influence Military might can be resisted through religious fervor, religious fervor can be undermined with economic incentive, and economic incentive can be overwhelmed by military might.
-Different levels of prestige could buy different effects: A bonus to influence, extended time for a revolt, granting passive bonuses to allies, spawning NPCs in villages, Peacing or Unpeacing (obviously at high levels), empowering ship weapons on a flare, just some possibilities
- Perhaps different faction types have different options, (i.e. only religious factions could force peace)
- Different spheres/villages might be weak or resistant to different influences. (maybe costs change)
- Factions may have a limit to how many influences they can lay down (or pay penalties for multiple focuses (such as the Mountain Wars) This could force people to seek allies.
Example: In the battle for Dairuchi and Talthos, Talthos is succeptable to commerical influence, while Dairuchi is easily swayed by religious influence. The Magnagoran military has few active members at the time, so it spends a huge chunk of Prestige to summon undead shock troopers to patrol Dairuchi. The Celest religious faction could encourage the people to drive out the troopers, (cheaper as it is Dairuchi), then lays down its own blessing on the village. Meanwhile, seeking more time in Talthos, Glomdoring's commercialists pay a bunch of biased beggars to join the village, giving them time to recover.. until some military force steps up to drive them out. The Seren military is considering this.. but is the prestige cost worth it.. or shall they save it for later?
This could add some dynamic interactions to the different contests, as well as encouraging people to do various quests for Prestige while giving them tangible effects. It would add roleplay and encourage all factions in an org to be part of the org.
I think the best option is going to be the admin picking a small group of people from each org to discuss new ideas with them and establish the core ideas of each new org BEFORE populating them, to prevent situations such as the bard/ninja guilds that have less established roleplay than the others simply due to having no strong identity established beforehand, and some (such as Cacophony) experiencing a change of leadership within weeks of the guild being established.
The only issue I can really see with GC is that, since guilds will no longer be tied to a class, is how you'd exactly handle some GCs. I'd advise doing it in a way that either the guilds or the city/commune can say: This guy/gal is our strongest in the Shadowdancer class. We want him to have the orb. This guy is the strongest Ebonguard that we have, give him the helm.
Maintain the RESCUE mechanics, but expand them for city-wide or keep it to guild only. Edit: Thinking on this, I'd probably say expand it to city-wide so that guilds aren't necessarily pressured to getting the city to name someone in their guild as a champion just so they can have access to RESCUE. Downgrade RESCUE in some format (possibly with a delay or power cost) though since that would make it incredibly powerful (and probably too much so).
I know a lot of people hate some of the Champ items, but they really do add a lot of flavor that no other game has. I'd really hate to see Patchou, Shuck, Grim, and the frustratingly annoying Handmaiden go.
In some cases, I think balance nightmares are somewhat acceptable because they lend to credence to the concept of asymmetrical balance which is what games like Lusternia are based off of. You never want things to be perfectly balanced as perfect balance leads to a situation with games like Starcraft or Chess. There's no individuality or 'flavor' behind any of the classes if everyone has the same functionality. It's why even though some class skills really, REALLY annoyed me in the past (like Crucify, Inquisition, Trueheal, etc.) I'd never try to delete them outright because they give flavour to the respective organizations/guilds/classes and make them unique from each other. Champ Pets follow the same philosophy in my opinion.