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Everiine said:"'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."-Synkarin's Lament.
Sadhyra said:Ensure that the webclient works well (it currently doesn't)Make settings easy to create (currently it's some mess with java and perl). I'm talking drag and drop/point and click setting creation. Let a newb click "Create new alias" and select a letter/button for it, then a command, with a nice shiny save button. Trying to make a basic alias to execute a skill should not take an hourHave functional autocuring (currently it's not even autosipping)Cure skill bloatHave clear and concise help filesMake the newbie process engaging and educational, not some zany LSD tripDon't make newbies try to navigate insane city layouts (cough, Hallifax)Make the Collegium engaging. Hearing NPCs lecture about historic shit nobody cares about isn't engaging. Give them a blaster crystal and have them fry enemies to a crisp to illustrate why crystals are cool, vs giving them an NPC reciting 10 lines of text stating why. Learn by doing! Maintain a steady skill balance cycle, versus one that swings heavily each iteration (*note, I've not been a liaison for years, so maybe this has improved)
Chirbo said:LiterallyCuring on Xenthos said:
The autosipping part of it works. It is just needlessly complex to set it up (have to turn on multiple things / flags). Definitely needs to be made easier, because it can't really help newbies if they cannot figure out how to enable it.
Ayisdra said: The first three points are really one issue. Lusternia (IRE) 'bought' m&m. With this move, I don't foresee any more work being done on the server side curing stuff, at least not in lusternia. That they want people to use m&mfNewbies aren't going to download a separate game client and a curing system on top of this. It's like a novel - you have 30 seconds to capture someone's attention. When the html client is wonky and all you see is walls of text, why would your attention be captured?@celina - I'm not saying "Copypasta Aetolia." I'm saying "Here is an example I created of a newbie experience that taught newbies skills in an immersive manner." I think there is room to improve, with the Collegium tasks - interaction and involvement are key factors in retention.
I'm just giving my impressions from someone rolling a newbie and a returning player. Yall want to know why your retention is bad - I gave some suggestions. You guys seem more inclined to shoot that down. This game is, simply put, hard to play and offputting to many new players. The thread asked how to improve getting newbs. I answered. I am not knocking ANY player who helps out newbies. That's a great thing to do. However, I've tried making multiple newbies and I've poked around on this toon - it's just HARD to play, compared to where other games are these days. it's not 2005 anymore. If players were helped to play, via help files, tutorials, UI, innate client, etc, it'd be a lot stronger.
You missed the point with the werewolves vs vampire comment. It's a cultural reference of Aetolia. It's commentary on the cultural differences between IRE games when you're talking about mirroring concepts such as novice orientation from other games. It's not a "mindset" about a refusal to adopt a mechanic like serverside curing (seriously?). I was pointing out that it was an incorrect commentary and politely trying to explain that it's an incorrect generalization. No one is also talking about mirroring concepts because currently, IRE has the exact same introduction in all of the newbie tours. MKO might be different, but I don't play MKO so I don't know. Everywhere else follows the same pattern: brief introduction of lore, make the player choose a class, learn how to fight, make the player choose a city. Go try them at some point. You'll find that they're all literally the same right now and I've raised the same criticisms for each of them. The point about adopting mechanics from other games ties into the statement I made earlier was more tailored to how confrontational people can be towards serverside curing and yes, people in Lusternia were apprehensive to the idea of serverside curing. I can scour the old forums if you want. This tied into the statement that other QoL changes (outside of newbie tours and what now) that newbies can enjoy allow for retention and newbies in those games have confirmed that they're helpful and made them want to partake more.Something such as a novice introduction is not a "mechanic," it has to be tailored to the cultural as well as mechanical needs. It's about making sure you are appealing to the correct culture of the game when developing player introductions. Not to say Lusternia's couldn't use change or improvement, but it's also not as simple as "I wrote this in X game, copy it here. Novices don't care about history lessons, etc." Culturally speaking, they seem to very much care about history and Big Story in Lusternia. it's one of Lusternia's greatest selling points. Maybe not in Aetolia, I don't know, I don't play it. Introducing players from conception to the correct type of game environment, to me, is important. All of the games do this. Never disputed this. Don't think anyone was. We're talking about mechanics that are quality of life changes that enable retention. Serverside curing is one of those and was used as an example.For example, I remember the old shallamar intro where you wandered around a mini area, you watched a story more than you did actual things, but you did enough to grasp the basics. It was a cool take on the normal MMO intros that I had not seen in Achaea and elsewhere. For Lusternia, it worked. Things have changed, obviously, and the application might not be as successful but the idea is the same. They all kind of had this with Loom Island on Achaea and Old Caanae in Imperian. Lusternia's was slightly different because Lusternia has inherently unique mechanics to the rest of them and subjectively better writing.I'd also suggest we don't have the data to identify what type of intro is successfully retaining players. Lusternia, in context of the other IREs, doesn't appear to have a population issue and it has been mentioned by big E that Lusternia does not struggle with sales like Imperian (and I think it was Aetolia) does. Ultimately, some ideas are universally awesome like serverside curing. Others, like what kind of intro retains players, is a more abstract concept and needs data to state it's "proven."I'm fairly certain IRE has the data that what kind of intro is successfully retaining players. I remember being asked to experiment and give feedback on the intros across IRE games awhile ago and I found that they were all pretty similar. The same criticisms I have for Lusternia's intro, I have for the others. However, the other IRE games have quality of life mechanics that make it EASIER for newbies in acclimating to the game that Lusternia does not have. Also, I'd argue that Lusternia has more resources at its disposal in terms of coders that other IRE games don't have. Mortal coders and I believe two fully paid coders. It took Aetolia MONTHS to get a paid coder and they don't do mortal coders because a mortal coder abused the position a long time ago and they've been paranoid of doing it again.Saying it's a refusal to adopt "proven mechanics" because of pride and ego is a really ridiculous thing to say. Except Lusternians, and folks from other games, get very confrontational when people criticize it or something about it. It's like console wars. Objectively meaningless to get defensive over, but people do. Sadhyra is even pointing it out and you have sort of mocked her opinions. I'm fairly sure I'm not the only one who observed it.As far as envoy reports, it's design is for small incremental changes over time, no one rewrites the meta every month. I actually don't recall a report in recent memory that fundamentally altered how a class functioned. Maybe the minstrel report for an ego kill but even that's been marginally visible. I think that's due to the fact that Lusternia is in the middle of a major overhaul in itself and no one is making large reports because they have no idea as to which way it's going to go in total. No one wants to suggest a grand, sweeping change of their class and then it ends up being useless as per the overhaul. The Minstrel change was large, but it fit the scheme of reports that were coming out because no one likes attrition mechanics and making someone incredibly drunk was a fairly painful example of one. I distinctly remember a time in Lusternia where things should shift in a near monthly basis of how strong things were. Sadhyra does too. She isn't a newbie to Lusternia.edit: For the record, you're right on the QoL changes that could happen. There are some great ideas we can pull from other games. I always liked that I could see every skill that I could eventually get in Achaea but in Lusternia I have to go to a wiki. Things like that are great QoL changes, though ultimately I don't know how much really small changes like that really do for retention.It's the little things. It might be hard for you and I to have that perspective because we know what classes are capable of, what the world is about, etc. To a genuine newbie who is learning the game, being able to read AB's and get an idea about other classes so I don't spend time and lessons putting effort into a class that ends up being not what I expected at all. I can find out early that there's a class in another organization that I'm definitively interested in based on what it can do and potentially do. If I buy credits, I don't end up blowing them on a class that I potentially won't be interested in and can put them towards skills I do want to learn. It's very common and my time as a guide both here and elsewhere (in the past) suggested that skills were one of the most common question topics outside of basic mechanics. There are other little CONFIGs like balance time used, equilibrium time used, how much damage I did to a mob, displaying how much that elixir healed me, custom prompts outside of M&M. These are examples of what I'm referring to.
That was beautifully written and expressed many things I was trying to say. Imma still keep Bianca tho, cuz she's the shit.
People like @Rami drive me nuts. Lets log into an alt I never play so I can be negative on a forums for no real reason other than you can be. I'm not against many of the ideas presented, I think things can improve and they are certainly valid ideas that would simplify things. But as far as player retention goes, take a look again at different IRE populations. As of right now Lusternia - 50 Aetolia - 55 Imperian - 28 MKO - 15Similiar populations. So these QoL changes, engaging quests etc aren't really proven to be this great 'player retention mechanic' they are being touted as. We may be stuck in our ways, but you've certainly not presented any mechanics that have been proven to retain players any more than Lusternia already does. Maybe you should realitycheck yourself here before hating on us from anonymity.
Population generalizations are probably the best indicator of player retention. Yes, other factors are involved, but it's a good measure.
Fyler said:Sylandra has a very signature (and somewhat twisted) sense of humor