Outstanding Overhaul Issues

13

Comments

  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,623 Transcendent
    edited February 2016
    Probably what I'll do with shrugging is give everyone innate shrugging to start (probably less than what trans resilience now), and scale it back as we make whatever adjustments are needed to make sure poisons/poison-giving abilities aren't too powerful.
    ---


    Any reason for reducing it? I'd rather we left it where trans resilience is now unless certain classes could make a good case for why they'd want it toned down...Why fix what isn't broken?
  • MoiMoi Member Posts: 1,163 Transcendent
    Two things that I would like to see in the Overhaul:

    1. APPLY ICE TO ARMS/LEGS. Pre-Overhaul you could do APPLY MENDING TO ARMS/LEGS and it would pick a damaged arm/leg at random. It would be nice to have that functionality back.

    2. The Collegium healing quests being updated to reflect the new cures. Currently, they ask for mending and chervil and pennyroyal and such.
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,623 Transcendent

    Iytha said:
    Two things that I would like to see in the Overhaul:

    1. APPLY ICE TO ARMS/LEGS. Pre-Overhaul you could do APPLY MENDING TO ARMS/LEGS and it would pick a damaged arm/leg at random. It would be nice to have that functionality back.

    2. The Collegium healing quests being updated to reflect the new cures. Currently, they ask for mending and chervil and pennyroyal and such.
    In regards to 1, I noticed this issue too. Adding "arms" and "legs" to ice is an idea, but probably makes things a little wonky. Report 1463 aims to help things out a bit.
  • HaghanHaghan Member Posts: 30 Capable
    Ok, so I'm a laughable combatant, but here is my theoretical worry with the proposed changes.

    If A) Chansu is switched to Anorexia; and B) Focus Body is removed as a paralysis cure

    This would allow Bonecrushers to potentially land two high-priority slush cures via venoms,  Anorexia (Chansu) and Stupidity(Dulak). At the same time, Bonecrushers can land Paralysis vis Snapspine, so all three could be  hit in the same blow.(assuming gut is wounded enough),  You'd be forced to endure one of the two while curing paralysis.

    Add to this the eventual ability to damage throat (blocking slush) and it could be a real slippery slope, needing to spend your ice to keep your sipping, your slush to keep your eating, or suffer paralysis.  Oh, and add to the stupidity and damaged skull, each using up a precious cure balance while screwing you up.

    Stag ancestralcurse could compound this, piling on Slush afflictions. And beast spit.

    In theory, with damaged head and beast you could land       Damagedthroat/ damaged skull with strikes and stupidtiy + anorexia + paralysis with venoms(beast included)
    That seems like it could be a bit crazy. 

    But I'm a cruddy combatant, I might be missing something
  • NienlaNienla Member Posts: 272 Expert
    edited February 2016
    @Enyalida: Paresis that develops into full paralysis if left uncured is NORMALLY a good way to go. Nearly everyone in IRE has done this for obvious reasons because paralysis on its own is very powerful. However, the main reason that those games did it is because aff rates were incredibly high in those games. You had Sentinels in Aetolia (which you're using as an example) hitting twice at about 1.8 seconds per attack. You had Syssin dstabbing with it on top of hypnosis proc'ing and shadow void periodically blocking cures (including the attempt to cure paralysis).

    The reason why I wouldn't support here, at least not yet, is that it's really not hard to cure afflictions in Lusternia by comparison to Aetolia and we don't have nearly the same aff rates. If anything, I want us to start moving towards aff-based offenses being more viable and getting away from the whole 'uncurable gimmick unless you run' bit that pervades most of high-performing classes right now.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman Member Posts: 4,384 Transcendent
    edited February 2016
    The big difference is that Aetolia's curing has specificity, you can choose which of the affs to cure and can prioritise strong afflictions like paresis/paralysis, so  affliction output has to be high to punish you for your curing choices. We have no general specificity, the only way to cure paresis in particular will be to take a double long curing balance or spend power. Basically, there are no curing choices. Throwing affs at you until you get unlucky will work even more than it already does.

    Aff rates compared to aff curing are going to be pretty quick. Ecologists have syssin-like afflicting on wafer with fetish poisons, demesne/bard song, and herb bane blocking the cure 50% of the time. Hex users are still going to afflict really quickly. Ecologists can hit with three poisons using their beast in a combo, that's a 33% chance to cure paresis on each wafer, assuming herb bane doesn't eat the cure. It's going to be an issue, especially the instant you add a second person into the fight or consider guilds that can stack lots of wafer affs (like cacophony). Hello paralysis you can't ever get rid of. Of all the wafer affs, it's the only one that totally locks down the majority of classes, it should be toned down. 


  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    So - make paralysis cure first

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    Making paralysis cure first all the time is a solution, but if the cure delay remains, then paralysis becomes even more of a "hit every single time you can with it" affliction than it is now - and given how important it already is, that's saying something. Everyone would hit with paralysis all the time because on top of its sheer importance as a priority affliction, it also has the added bonus of being always cured first even if there was a rare case where you want to cure something ELSE first.

  • HaghanHaghan Member Posts: 30 Capable
    Well depending on how reliable venom proc become, you might want to cure astham before paralysis, or else you'd get stuck with slickness and a slippery sloe bs any warrior.
  • IeptixIeptix Member, Moderator, Gods Posts: 819 Divine
    Malarious said:

    == Focus ==

    Doubled cure balance seems very harsh. We do not really have issues with hardlocks or overlapping cures anymore, so this is likely to not really be required.  When did you forsee needing to focus a cure generally? 

    Would beast curing be a single skill that only works with focus then? Right now it is 3 skills, are these being rolled into one?

    == Fire / Frost / Burns / Etc ==

    There are issues that arise if you make ice the cure to these. 
    + Burns used to be a 1s balance, ice is 2s balance. This means that we would need to speed up recovery rate AND increase burns healed due to wounds and afflictions.  This change would mean broken limbs (several skills can do) would become far stronger for pyros and aquas.  Aquas have a skill to strip the balance, do burst damage, etc based on chill (preserve).   Making burns tie into warriors (it would be the same cure as wounds) makes this a bigger problem.   I would honestly rather see a 5th "outlier" cure. 

    + Burns are only really used by one guild. They could be treated the same as cloudcoils and removed in favor of a better focused method. I am open to suggestion on where else they are important, but it seems likely to break things if the only cure we can find also happens to line up with warriors and such. Even if we removed calcise and dendroxin as ice cures, TK and such could still readily deliver breaks, meaning you either can't attack/run or you will die of burns. Either way seems lazy.

    + Chills and frozen have the same issue as above, noting that frozen and chills increases balance loss and causes eq loss on tic instead of killing people. This is mainly used by aquas for an insta, and could similarly go away.  

    + If both of the above are needed, we need applying to burns to be faster than normal speed, and possibly make chills a dust cure (hot and dry). 

    + Would rather see APPLY LUCIDITY (cold and wet) being cure for burns, but betting part of the intent of being on ice was stacking to make it easier to work with.

    + We would need to make pyrotoxin never be able to cause burns if we used ice as well, or we end up with all kinds of problems.

    == Insanity and Timewarp ==

    Insanity seems likely to be lucidity and timewarp should likely be soothing steam if aeon is.   That said, aeon should always cure first, and with the aeon changes this could be reasonable I THINK. Would need to test how readily available aeon spam helps things tic.



    == Earwort and Faeleaf ==

    I cannot think of any pressing reasons for these to need to use dust balance. Both have built in timers/hinders (earache and flared) that stop this from really being a concern. That said, were you also meaning those two as cure for blind/deaf?  AKA are you trying to use this to phase out myrtle?


    == Entangles ==

    This is okay I guess, though we may want to look at slower contort/slip slightly to compensate for the lack of being able to double up.  Similarly, increase eq cost on tipheret.  I am hoping we change grapples to not require curing, so assuming they are not included.  Truss and rushing will need big changes for this. 

    == Aeon ==

    First off, we need a sigil that auto refills pipes from rift.  This is especially important with things like aeon being a smoke cure now.   

    Asthma probably should be removed from dramaturgy due to increased ease of locks. It used to be you cure use focus to break out of the setup fairly reliably, this is not possible with focus going away and asthma not being a focus cure.

    Those said: I like the intent to change it and look forward to the changes to the guilds that rely on it. This will likely mean huge changes for several guilds to leave them still usable.

    Chansu change is also likely good, and could be interesting. This needs to be known though to help figure out warriors and monks that might rely on chansu for locks.

    == Healing ==

    Add duress. Attempting to use healing when not masochistic implies you might be under duress and would have an actual cost instead of free healing. Some things should potentially be made to STOP healing until cured as well. 


    Now for things now in the post that I wanted to bring up!


    == Passive Afflictions ==

    Can we set a reasonable standard of par for skills going forward?  Consider the differences of things at this point:   greywhispers is something like 3 afflictions every 5 seconds (4.5s of lucidity balance) at a potential free cost with homunculus but phantoms is more power for a single aff and slight damage.   Pyromeld is several applies of things a tic vs the one or so of aqua.  We have slowly allowed power creep in newer guilds, resulting in higher dealing rates without compensating older guilds.  What is the target here?


    == Unpopular idea 1 ==

    Add a couple more afflictions to each cure. 

    The system is simple, but potentially simple to the extent things seem too familiar to eachother. Adding a couple afflictions to separate people would not go amiss and would improve things a bit, could even be afflictions that tie into a focus like impeding healing or such.  Examples could be thought up if there is some willingness to explore this.


    == The 5th cure ==

    I actually would prefer having a 5th cure to handle things like burns, shivers, ablaze, etc.  I liked having a focus skill at inept that was used for this sort of purpose specifically. 

    ala 

    FOCUS BODY 
    "You focus on raising your body temperature, [shrugging off the chill sunk into your bones|melting the ice that clings to your skin]."
    "You focus on repairing your skin, mending [some|all] of the burns that plague you."

    That sort of thing. Dealing with regulating your own temperature or such.  Could also potentially have arguments to do things like deal with blindness or such.  Skill could be called homeostasis and be based on returning to your own.


    Per topic:

    Focus, burns/chills/etc, and aeon I'm going to address in a separate post, since there's been a lot of discussion, but referencing them here so as to acknowledge them as a discussion topic.

    Tempinsantity and Timewarp: I'm unopposed to having them on different cures if it makes sense/is balanced. Would slush fit in well with what Paradigmatics dishes out generally?

    Earwort and Faeleaf: At present there's no way to stack them behind cures, regardless of other hindering (such as earache), which is a change from the status quo and has been mentioned by envoys a time or two that I recall. Further, if possible we'd like to eliminate the non-overhaul balances entirely, which means either removing faeleaf/earwort (not likely) or sticking them on one of the overhaul balances. Putting them on an overhaul balance is a bit inelegant, perhaps, but I don't recall seeing better ideas.

    Entangles: I'm fine with adjusting writhe times and the eq times for the -magic cures. I'm not familiar with truss and rushing or how they're different from other writhe affs, can you elaborate?

    Healing: Healing is going to receive a reasonably hefty update, but at the moment there's no ETA or details we're looking to share yet.

    Passive afflicting: There isn't a set goal for how many affs are given out generally; it'll vary by class and what is needed for that class. If there are instances where skills are giving too few or too many affs per unit time, that's generally going to be an issue for envoys to address.

    New afflictions: We are unlikely to add new afflictions unless there's a demonstrable need for specific new effects. Adding afflictions for the sake of adding afflictions is very unlikely.

    Fifth cure: Also not likely to happen. The point of moving e.g. burns and such into the overhaul cures is to allow for aff/balance stacking as was possible pre-overhaul. Moving them to a different syntax that has no demonstrable difference from fire/frost doesn't gain anything. Again, more talk on fire/frost later.


    Enyalida said:
    I suggest going Aetolia's route and replacing most instances of paralysis afflicting with paresis, which is less restrictive than paralysis. If you fail to cure paresis after a few seconds (or the person afflicting you used a special power skill that specifically deals the more powerful paralysis , it develops into full blown paralysis. I think that paresis in Aetolia kills parry, stops moving out of the room like paralysis would, stops instakills that are stopped by getting paralyzed now, stops shielding, and uh... stops their allheale-like power. Paresis specifically does not stop using most skills and attacks, so it doesn't totally shut down a combatant until they cure it. 
    As with some of the things mentioned above, there's been a lot of talk about paralysis so I'll address that separately.


    Shedrin said:

    Aeon:
    Changing aeon in that way would likely make it easier to script around and play against, this is definitely a good thing. It'd also be a significant nerf. Assuming you have balance, if you have say anorexia + asthma + aeon, you can cure that all in 1s, as opposed to the 3s it takes currently. This would ruin many strategies of aeon guilds, and those guilds would need a revamp. This isn't a bad thing, I think the tradeoff of removing aeon as it currently exists is worth it (especially considering that with other changes they'll need to be looked at anyway).

    Just quoting this so I have it on the last page.


    Tarkenton said:
    I wouldn't mind seeing the possibility of the 2h warrior specs building 1 wound when using an affliction modifier. I think that'll keep them on par with the 1h specs for wound rate. Thoughts?
    This is something I'm planning on implementing, at least to test in the overhaul arena. Likely this would be limited to modifiers that exist purely to apply affs; stuff that has other effects (e.g. the +bleed modifiers for pureblade, opencavity, remiss, etc.) wouldn't gain the extra wounds. But that's all up in the air.


    Rivius said:
    Currently TK clots are cured by eat yarrow, burst vessels are cured by sipping healing and eating sparkleberry.

    Also, in the discussion of writhe cures, there was no mention of clamp and hoist.
     Can we keep clamp? :(
    How important are clots for TK? I'm not super familiar with the psionics specs. It looks like clots will either need to be removed or moved to an overhaul cure, probably dust thematically, though I don't know how that'll play out. Thoughts on this?

    For clamp, it looks like that's basically a writheable version of a damaged arm? Is there something else to the ability that I'm missing? I mean, the thematic idea behind it is nice, but I'm not sure it really fits in well with the overhaul in general, since it's essentially a duplicate affliction at that point. Would changing it to just deal damagedarm be workable? I feel like that might be too much given the discussion on ice and physical affs and such, but I'm really not sure. Would appreciate more discussion on this!


    Rivius said:
    Probably what I'll do with shrugging is give everyone innate shrugging to start (probably less than what trans resilience now), and scale it back as we make whatever adjustments are needed to make sure poisons/poison-giving abilities aren't too powerful.
    ---


    Any reason for reducing it? I'd rather we left it where trans resilience is now unless certain classes could make a good case for why they'd want it toned down...Why fix what isn't broken?
    IMO, shrugging is just a bad mechanic, and I'd rather see it gone. If something is needed to reduce how powerful poisons are in general, I'd rather address either specific trouble-causing abilities (e.g. beast spit seems to come up a lot; maybe have it use double beast balance, as an example?) or if a global something is needed, have it be some sort of deterministic thing. Perhaps you can only be afflicted with a poison once every X seconds (this is just an example, not specifically pushing for that mechanic or whatever, was just a first thought that came to mind).

    However, I realize that simply dropping it out entirely would likely cause too much of an issue, hence the scale back I mentioned. Reduce its effectiveness over time so trouble spots become apparent and can be fixed, without just dropping the floor out entirely as it were.


    Iytha said:
    Two things that I would like to see in the Overhaul:

    1. APPLY ICE TO ARMS/LEGS. Pre-Overhaul you could do APPLY MENDING TO ARMS/LEGS and it would pick a damaged arm/leg at random. It would be nice to have that functionality back.

    2. The Collegium healing quests being updated to reflect the new cures. Currently, they ask for mending and chervil and pennyroyal and such.

    Regarding item 1: What's the use-case on this in the current system? I'm not seeing it.

    Regarding item 2: I forget that collegium healing quests are a thing. I'll take care of those.

    ---

    I think all the post I skipped mostly on page 2 were either discussions of paralysis or burns/ice/etc., so I kind of skimmed through for the purpose of this post, so if there was something else that I missed that isn't one of those topics, please point it out so I'm not ignoring it!

    Next couple posts will be about those things I mentioned at the top of the post.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    Clots are not important to TK. They've never really meshed well with burst vessels due to not sharing the same cure and TKs generally having no affliction stacking potential outside of some melds.
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  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,623 Transcendent
    edited March 2016
    -----Ieptix----
    For clamp, it looks like that's basically a writheable version of a damaged arm? Is there something else to the ability that I'm missing? I mean, the thematic idea behind it is nice, but I'm not sure it really fits in well with the overhaul in general, since it's essentially a duplicate affliction at that point. Would changing it to just deal damagedarm be workable? I feel like that might be too much given the discussion on ice and physical affs and such, but I'm really not sure. Would appreciate more discussion on this!
    --------

    It depends on how much we really want to condense the different writhes, I guess. I like clamp being a writhe affliction on the arm since it provides some decent hindering for at least the duration of a writhe. It's the only passive hindering warriors really get, too, and I'd really like to keep it as a little perk to tracking bonds. But if you insist we remove it, I guess we'll just have to brainstorm some replacements.

    As a follow up question: How far are we going in condensing writhe afflictions? Will crucify and stagimpale stick around too?


    -----Ieptix----
    Regarding item 1: What's the use-case on this in the current system? I'm not seeing it.
    -----

    Basically, there are creatures in bashing and certain attacks in combat which deliver damaged limbs but do not specify if it was the left or right side. They're scattered pretty far throughout the game, but thankfully the new aff messages and GMCP do a good job of clearing it up. The issue still remains though in a lesser state where you might hit the symptom line for a damaged limb and not know where to apply without diagnosing. When we had mending we could APPLY MENDING TO LEGS and it would catch it anyway, whether it was on the left leg or right leg. So what some systems would do was, when they got the symptom line they would work the logic like this

    Symptom line -> Assign an affliction called 'possible_damaged_leg' --> apply mending -> if damaged_right_leg or damaged_left_leg is cured and the system didn't know we had it, delete that aff plus 'possible_damaged_leg'

    Another reason why it worked so well with mending is that mending didn't consume balance when it didn't cure anything, so if that symptom line (which is shared with other affs) didn't correspond to a mending affliction, it was pretty innocuous. If a mending affliction was not cured, then at that point you would trigger a diagnose to find out what you had. But earlier than that you could catch things pretty well without needing it.

    Right now, the symptom lines carried over but don't match how ice is applied. Plus the symptom lines were never that great to begin with.

    So one of the special reports I had up (1463) just asks that we improve the symptom lines or some other solutions there. Iytha's suggestion of doing APPLY ICE TO LEGS/ARMS would also help somewhat, but you'd need to change a few ice lines too if you want to go that route. Wobou advised me not to bother offering that as a suggestion because it might just be simpler for everyone to do solution 1 or 2 of my report.

    ---Celina--
    Clots are not important to TK. They've never really meshed well with burst vessels due to not sharing the same cure and TKs generally having no affliction stacking potential outside of some melds.
    ---

    Functionally, this is true. Once upon a time there was some clever usage of clots and illusions to trick systems. But over the years, systems have gotten better and lines more revealing, so clots have become less and less relevant. But I'm not a TK mage, so I don't know if there's any new fringe uses for them. None that have been used on me at least. I don't know if it's a mechanic you want to discard or try to rework into this system. 


  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective. Member Posts: 4,508 Transcendent
    I'd rather roll it into the overhaul and rework it from there or just delete it and address TK afterwards. I don't think either significantly change anything about TK.
    image
  • IeptixIeptix Member, Moderator, Gods Posts: 819 Divine
    Ok, so, the big things. I'll start with aeon. Tbh I probably could have addressed this in-line with the stuff in the last post, but for some reason I'd remembered there being more discussion on it which apparently didn't exist. Whevs, I do what I want.

    So I'm not sure why there's a concern that the proposal in the first post is going to have a major impact on aeon-using classes. I think maybe there's a misunderstanding on what my proposal was.

    Here's how it works:

    When you're under aeon, every time you enter a command it gets added to a queue internally. While this queue is non-empty, a timer will run every second (or however long the aeon delay is) that executes the least-most-recently entered command. This reduces trivially to current aeon if you only enter commands after they've been run. The main update from current aeon is that it allows you to send commands in batches (e.g. outr plant;eat plant) and not have to micromanage sending your commands as they complete. You'd still have to be careful about what commands are being sent, and the time delay to cure an aff would be the same as currently minus network latency. There'd also be a non-aeon-affected command to clear the queue, which maintains compatibility with current aeon and being able to change the command you're currently preparing to execute on the fly.

    I think the idea somehow came through that the proposal was to have every command fire a second after it's entered, without regard to other commands? That's not what I'm planning, and would be a rather major change to how aeon classes would function. However, that's not what I'm going for, and I'm not seeing any large-scale changes to how aeon would function in combat with my proposal; it just makes it a bit easier to work with on the afflictee's side. Or maybe y'all are basing this off a correct understanding of what I posted and I'm just missing something. Probably wouldn't be the first time.
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  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me. Member Posts: 1,612 Transcendent
    I misunderstood it, your proposal is fine. Making it more manageable for the victim without necessarily changing the function of the aff is simple.
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  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    edited March 2016
    Disregard

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • IeptixIeptix Member, Moderator, Gods Posts: 819 Divine
    Ok, next up, focusing.

    The current proposal for focusing came about from a number of people expressing concern over the lack of cure specificity in the overhaul; i.e. each cure (ignoring ice, since it functions a bit differently) cures ~10 afflictions now, whereas previously most cures cured a much smaller number of affs (in the range of 3-6ish). Ergo, you could vaguely prioritize what affliction you want to cure based on what cure you used. There was a fair amount of discussion with the envoys (and I think a forum thread at some point in the past) about this, and the idea presented here was one that seemed largely agreeable to most people. The major sticking point was what kind of opportunity cost to slap on it, both power and increased cure balance were thrown out both with a fair amount of support, so it was decided to give a choice to the user, since both types of costs are situationally more useful or harmful. It is not intended to fill the same niche as the existing focus mechanics. The use of beast curing here came up later, internally, when we were trying to figure out how to address beast curing in the overhaul. Since there was mention that the double cure balance might be too much, that's a number I'm perfectly comfortable adjusting based on testing. Maybe 1.5x ends up being a sweet spot, for example; it's not 100% guaranteed to be 2x when we release.

    Speaking of both beast curing and current focusing, one goal of all of this is to cut down on the rather large number of curing types we have. Aside from the basic cures, we also have green/gedulah, allheale, focusing, beast curing, various skill-specific cures both active and passive. Green/gedulah and allheale have very limited overall impact or high opportunity costs (long balance and power cost, respectively) but are fairly generic and have a specific role in e.g. lock avoidance/breaking. The skill-specific cures that I know of are mostly passive general cures or very niche abilities (e.g. trueheal) though I'm sure I'm missing some important ones. But because of how these abilities are spread out and work in a lot of different ways, there isn't a feasible way to address them en masse; if there are specific abilities that are too strong or too weak or whatever, they end up needing to be addressed through envoy reports. Additionally, afaik, the active ones are generally used not dissimilar to allheale, where they have a specific use and aren't used as generic curing methods. Passive curing has come up as a subject a couple times I've seen, but addressing it is a bit outside the scope of what we're working on here, and again would need to be addressed on a per-case basis, in likelihood. Additionally, given the vastly lower number of afflictions in all, I'm perfectly fine with having these opportunity costs in place for specificity; it's no longer possible to be afflicted with 20 different mental affs and have to worry about curing one specific aff; the numbers overall are much lower and so the need for specificity, while still there, is smaller and I feel this makes the costs reasonable, and the costs themselves have the potential to add tactical strategy to curing.

    So that leaves us with focusing and beast curing. Focus mind and beast cure mind are identical, and once impatience is removed, will be identical to lucidity slush. Focus body is paralysis/leglock/throatlock; paralysis is already handled by dust, I'm not sure exactly how we'll handle leglock/throatlock yet, but something will be done with them. Modulo a few leftover physical affs that'll be phased out with monk updates, beast cure mind only cures damaged limbs. Beast cure spirit cures a handful of afflictions, the only notable ones outside the overhaul system being bedevil (which is going to be updated) and timewarp (which will be handled elsewhere); I'd be surprised if this gets used much at all. Focus spirit has a few otherwise incurable (afaik) affs on it, which could be a bit of a sticky point, but they're few enough in number that any issues I think can be addressed envoy reports if really necessary. I don't know if even that'll be required, though, since part of the point of the affs is that they're not meant to really be cured normally, and anyone without trans discipline at present needs to deal with them anyway.

    So the big thing is dealing with focus mind. As I mentioned, it's basically at this point a redundant slush cure on a separate balance (and not blockable by damagedthroat). I think we can do away with this without much worry; if afflicting power becomes too much in some cases, then we can address those cases on a per-item basis, or possibly reduce the balance time on slush to compensate; because of the perfect redundancy between slush and lucidity, modulo damaged throat the effect of having focus mind is essentially equivalent to a reduction in ice balance anyway, since its purpose is simply to increase the rate of mental affs cured per unit time. The other point with focus mind is that mana kill classes might rely on focusing focus for extra mana pressure, but mana kill classes should have mana pressure built in to their skills that we can compensate for as needed, as well.

    Tl;dr: Focus is a solution to cure specificity. We can adjust the opportunity costs if they're too high (but they will remain). All the focuses/beast cures but focus mind/beast cure mind are pretty unneeded, and we want to reduce the number of various cure sources in general. Focus mind's removal can be compensated for on a per-skill basis or by reducing the balance times on slush because it is completely redundant with slush itself.
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  • IeptixIeptix Member, Moderator, Gods Posts: 819 Divine
    Oh, while it's on my mind, the one sticking point with NewAeon was how to deal with curing; the reasonable options are to either have it fire all the queued commands simultaneously, or have it clear and disregard the queue entirely meaning the user needs to re-enter any queued commands after the cure is complete. I see downsides to both, though neither are unmanageable, but I'm curious which y'all would prefer there.
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  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice Member Posts: 2,622 Transcendent
    Hi @Ieptix!

    Resilience will go away, with a lesson refund. Its damage reduction effect will be merged into the Combat skill. I'd also like to remove the passive poison shrugging granted by the skill, if this is not going to be too unbalancing.


    I'm not sure if it has been raised, but I'd like to know if it's gonna be a raw lesson refund or will the lessons be placed under a lesson pool. I'm kinda hoping it's gonna be the former, though.
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,623 Transcendent
    edited March 2016
    So just to make sure I get the aeon change, it'll work such that if I sent outr dust;eat dust, in one second, outr dust will be sent and the in the next second eat dust will be sent? Essentially keeping it similar to current aeon in function? Just that now this queue can be cleared if something comes up before each item completes?
    If I understand this right, I think the only thing that would change, from my perspective, is that afflictions like Hallucinations that force commands, or certain Force-command skills would lose potency in slowing you down.
  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 592 Gifted
    Quickies:

    +Tempinsanity:

    Currently lucidity is the balance illuminati push, with badluck increasing insanity gain for mental affs. This could be a self feeding cycle though now that I think about it.


    +Earwort/Faeleaf: 

    I am not sure this is a concern. Allowing these to be focused as defenses instead of cures is good and lets us focus on the skillsets standalone, although I assume things like herbbane are the reason for complaint.


    +Truss: 

    Truss requires the target already be prone. Rushing ignores prone and enters another room but costs power. Report 1384 has requested repurpose of truss though, though not sure about the "lock off ice till writhe" as a 4s delay on ice curing seems extreme.


    +Passive afflicting:

    Some skills cause 3 mental affs a tic, so 3 stacked cures on its own, separate from your offense. 


    +APPLY ICE TO ARMS/LEGS

    As Rivius pointed out, this would help with lines like "Both your legs need to be functional to do that."  Although if you prefer to change these to be more specific like "Both your legs need to be functional, which your left leg is not".




    ==  Aeon ==

    I am confused and ask for clarification on this.  If you can stack all your commands up front, and then it auto does them in a queue, this would allow forced actions or being hit under blackout or such to be incredibly painful as you might send 5 commands inside aeon.  You would need a way to clear the queue, and this in general just sounds likely to make aeon WORSE if using the queue method as we think. You would need reclear the queue and send new command each time an aff would interfere with things. Not a fan of this due to current group combat.

    If this causes all commands to be delayed 1s but to each be executed 1s after they were sent, it will require some rebalancing potentially but would cut the strength of aeon notably.  I would prefer this form and adjust guilds to utilize this better, as aeon is the problem child presently.

    In groups you see a lot of aeon, nearly constantly, making this a major piece of most people dying. Aeon with no setup, or things that cause it with stun/blackout are used readily, repeatedly, for the duration of the entire fight. The fact this comes up without any effort or strategy is a red flag to me.



    == Curing ==

    Beast cure body curing only breaks seems ok, though would like to see the more minor of the two in each area (something on head, gut, and chest) to be added. 

    Mental affs are dealt very rapidly by the NEW guilds, mainly because of passives.  Hexists can burst many affs at a cost, but they need to capitalize on it very rapidly to be viable.

    Spirit curing can go away, as it is not all that vital really now. 




    == Aeon again ==

    My ideal solution for aeon would let us focus it for SOLO combat and substantially weaken it in group combat.  Something like delaying attacks against the target, but if too many people are attacking at once it just fades under the stress. This would let small groups do fine, and coordinated groups could still use it, but suddenly 10 people wouldn't be attacking the same person entirely under aeon.  That person is still going to die, but slower, and smaller groups (6) will be potentially escapable.

    The current aeon is FINE if the group aspect was handled. Sadly I am close to thinking we need to keep current aeon but adjust for that aspect, as many guilds were intended to utilize the present version of aeon, even though some cannot properly utilize it (guardians don't have asthma last I knew still). 

    Hopefully that is clear and concise enough rationale to get the idea of problems across.

    Right now enter combat:
     - Multiple aeoners or cantor/symphonium (Latter have priority because they ignore quicky).
     - Afflictions and stuns piled immediately.
     - No real chance of recovery if anyone else is competent.
     - Target dies very quickly.

    Proposed version:
     - Aeon is used immediately.
     - Attackers pile, delaying them.
     - Too many attackers, aeon fails and all attacks that were "waiting" land.
     - Combat continues.


    That is incredibly oversimplified, but I am willing to bet a fair portion of combat data will show that stuns are utilized very heavily, more so when aeon comes into play, and half the time comes at the same moment (cantor/symphonium). 




    Ok, that is me attempting to be clear but brief on all points where I think I can be.  Hopefully I did a good job at that!
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me. Member Posts: 1,612 Transcendent
    Temporary insanity going on lucidity balance is what I prefer given the halli equivalent of aeon + steam balance.
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  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink Member Posts: 1,717 Transcendent
    edited March 2016
    @Ieptix Is fixing firstaid somewhere on the list? It isn't curing stupidity at the moment, and I think same for all lucidity cures.

  • IeptixIeptix Member, Moderator, Gods Posts: 819 Divine
    First aid not working would be a bug, not really relevant to the topic of this thread.
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  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink Member Posts: 1,717 Transcendent
    Ok, I had been told that adjusting firstaid was something that was waiting for the overhaul to be finished, so thought it was linked to this. I'll go bug it then.

  • TylwythTylwyth Member Posts: 1,555 Mythical
    Qistrel said:
    Ok, I had been told that adjusting firstaid was something that was waiting for the overhaul to be finished, so thought it was linked to this. I'll go bug it then.
    Oh that isn't just me.
    FOR pposters who aren't steingrim:

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  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,623 Transcendent
    Important question: How much timewarp and temp insanity do steam and slush cure right now? (e.g. 2x pennyroyal, 1xfocus mind) etc.
  • TwytchTwytch Member Posts: 485 Expert
    edited March 2016
    Is the switch live? Or arena-only?

    EDIT: It's not live in the game yet, but for comparison:

    Each revelations (tempinsanity-builder) put out 2 levels of insanity. Pennyroyal and FocusMind, afaik, cured one each. Homunculus can also bite for 1 level of insanity (iirc), and you could, more or less, eat pennyroyal and focus mind twice between revelations/bite (revelations takes around 3.2 seconds of equilibrium, while bite takes 4 seconds of homunculus balance (hom-bal is like beast-bal).
    See you in Sapience.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,765 Transcendent
    Bump for relevance to another thread, specifically about aeon.

    image
  • TwytchTwytch Member Posts: 485 Expert
    Question about aeon: will it still be cured first when using steam, or would it require a focus/beast/power cure to be prioritized?
    See you in Sapience.
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