I don't fault Celina for leaving the fight, but I do think it's an example of why people shouldn't throw stones.
The fact that you're always insulting certain north fighters, combined with this log makes you look like a hypocrite @Cyndarin. You were certainly right to disengage and ask the midbies whether they're down to die for the lulz. It's logical and there's no fault in that. Just the fact that you're always lashing out at others for skipping fights that you deem to be fair makes you a target.
Let's stop accusing people because any instance can be taken out of context, and instead figure out times/ways/reasons we can have good fun fights (for both sides!)
I think when there is too much imbalance between raiders and defenders somebody should spark up a freeforall or wargames. This solves the issue of discretionary powers, but is annoying because it doesn't feel like anyone has any skin in the game.
Also people should be more willing to sit out a raid if the numbers are too much in their favor. I do this often, and it's really impossible for me to know how much others do it. Basically, if you raid, I don't think you should bring more people than are able to defend. However, defenders should feel free to bring as many as they can.
Why are we re-instigating this argument? Is it possible for both parties to agree to disagree and let things rest for now (sounds like one already did!)?
Or is this too much wishful thinking on my part?
Tonight amidst the mountaintops And endless starless night Singing how the wind was lost Before an earthly flight
@Ciaran: Please take your opinion, roll it up into a comfortably sized ball, and shove it up your ass. I removed myself from this conversation, I'd appreciate if you respected that. If you would like to talk in a way that isn't deeply rooted in partisanship and deliberate misrepresentation, you can approach me privately. I imagine you and the others won't though. Very similar to how you'd prefer to continue complaining about shadowtwist than approaching me on how to beat it. It's just easier to complain that things are unfair, rather than listen, self critique, and acknowledge when you're wrong. Have a great day.
If I start decap and you web me, that is a counter. If I start deathsong and you gust me, that is a counter. If I start to steal your shadow and you shield, that is a... oh wait no it isn't I have already successfully stole your shadow. If start to twist and you shield, that is... oh... huh same as above.... strange...
The only plausible counter is forcing to drop shadow, which you cannot drop off balance so unless you get lucky, that too is not a counter.
I mean if you want to argue that shield is a counter fine, then shield is also a counter to aeon, inquisition, and death.
You do not counter twist, you react to twist, and the best way to react to twist is to delete the trigger from MMF and create your own that tracks twist properly.
I suppose there could be some super secret only cyndarin knows how method of 'countering' twist that no SD I have talked to has ever heard about.
Oh, and for the record. I can handle Twist. It does not mean I don't think it is a BS skill. The two are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps something you need to learn. I can teach you if you like.
Nope, still don't get it. Complaining is harder than asking and admitting when you're wrong. Let me know when your pride isn't getting in the way and you're ready to apologize and ask.
You shield after the final twist before you cure aeon. Unlike inquisition, in resets an SD entirely. You don't need to count twists, the power cost of toad means they have to wait, and can only twist twice (including the final twist) if they want enough power for toad. The 6th twist is throat lock which no longer interferes with aeon so it's not a big deal. Mugwump speed used to make this tough, but that was resolved. Incidentally, yes you can use shield to counter solo aeon the same way, you just traditionally don't because solo aeon isn't a big deal.
He means the majorbreath attack from beastmastery. Kill the pixie. Just like you can kill a pooka. One of the defining weaknesses of wiccans is that their passives die very easily. If you're not on Ethereal, they can't even summon new fae and have the power to toad/twist you.
@Yarith: You're right, shield is actually a counter for Celestines if you know how to time your glows (I had it in my system ages ago). It's not a reset for Paladins because raze is superior to nullify/void.
edit: Oh I should say this doesn't work against meteor builds, but hopefully that is addressed in my most recent report.
Shield after final twist before curing aeon. That is the revelation? I honestly was expecting some amazing secret that had been lost to time and only Cyndarin remembered.
Did we forget that you are also stunned on final twist?
Nope, you just don't like to listen. Which is fine. I never claimed it was super secret or creative. I didn't even claim it was mine! It was actually shown to me by @Silvanus. That was your pride assuming it couldn't possibly be something so simple you were getting wrong. That is the issue with your partisanship, you aren't listening to the actual words I'm using. SD is really basic and old design, twist didn't inject any new crazy mechanics. As a result, the counters tend to be basic and old. Shield. Kill fae.
Nope, I didn't! SDs have two choices during that stun. Drain your mana and you cure out of aeon, or hinder you to prevent the shield. Again, this used to be easier with mugwump. Once you establish that there is no variation in their drains, and that they need you at a certain level of mana before the final twist to toad you, it's easy to counter to them. You set your sip/scroll/sparkle thresholds very high, you don't auto clot your mana down at inopportune times, and you are prepared to react to the final twist appropriately.
Also, shield is not a counter it is common knowledge. When shit is about to hit the fan, try and shield.
You sure like to throw around that partisanship name though, It is not partisanship to just think you are full of it. I mean I have very informed and sometimes argumentative discussions with Sidd without the toxic blathering that you spew, and for that matter every other person in the South that I talk to.
Alright! You're all entitled to disagree. It works for me. We'll just leave it at that.
Well, this is why I stopped and should've stayed out of it. Maybe you're capable of having a civil discussion with Sidd without misrepresenting what he said, and then getting upset when he's not nice to you back. Maybe you don't like me, so you're just inherently more civil or genuine with Sidd. Maybe when he mentions a specific mechanic or strategy he uses, you don't make snide comments in response. I really don't know. I know when you attack me rather than respond to me, it appears to just be partisanship, be it against me specifically or otherwise. I know I was in the wrong, so I edited myself out of the conversation, I acknowledged I was contributing to a bad environment. You and Ciaran keep repeatedly making less than civil or friendly comments to bring me back in. Please do not call me toxic if that is the kind of behavior you are trying to incite.
Incidentally, the only time you've ever approached me was to attack someone else which you accidentally made public, which I deleted for you and thanked you for the feedback. Maybe the problem isn't really just me. Maybe we're both being dicks.
I'm just going to play devil's advocate here and say that "Shield after the final twist but before curing aeon" is an absolutely craptastic response to "how do we counter twist?"
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
That's fine, people can think what they want about it. The SD invests a lot of time and power to prep that final twist, and you reset them with a single action at a specific time. I'm just telling you it works, I made no further commentary. Basic doesn't mean wrong. You beat bards with gust. Take it or leave it.
edit: Except if you're getting meteor'd. Then you just run.
Yeah you can command sit off balance. But again, kill the fae. Killing pookas goes back years and years! They're very fragile. Unless they are on ethereal, the cost itself prevents them from ever being able to toad you.
Also a hexen SD can easily save whammy asthma/paralyse for their under-aeon action. There's beast kick if I am reading the ab correctly, the chance of beast spit mantakaya, webbing will stop shield, all manner of ways, though none of them are instant other than waiting on RNG for spit.
Pretty sure hexen SD with asthma/paralyse will just toad you.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
Beast kick won't work because it's an active ability (doesn't use beast balance).
There are, as stated above, numerous other alternatives (but they mostly involve using fae) If you advocate killing fae though then that's the same as any stonewall strategy. It can be web spamming, shield spamming, gem kethering, lust spamming, etc. It revolves around the other person getting sick of fighting it.
@Ciaran: You're correct. It's just like gem kethering that was added specifically as a counter to ruby spam (and diamond shield at the time that everyone hated). It'll be the same for astros if my report goes through. It's the same for gusting away a bard every time they octave. I'm not saying it's good or bad, it's just what works and are very prevalent in Lusternia. You counter several classes specifically by removing their method of killing you. Ultimately, for better or worse, we're not super balanced 1v1 as a game.
Incidentally, kethering rubies (or running away) was the advice Shedrin gave on a log currently being discussed. So yeah, stonewall tactics, but it's not SD specific by any means.
I agree to the extent that other classes are well countered by stonewalling tactics.
Note, your stonewalling tactic against SDs is to remove their fae so that they can't prone you, so that you can shield through aeon when they final twist you.
That's not the same. In fact, one of the biggest differences between twist and all other kill methods is that it can't really be stonewalled in any way. They can still build twists no matter what you do. You can however grant yourself a -chance- to counter the final twist with proper prep. (I guess, taking your word for it)
I really don't care about twists though. It's not an argument that I ever wanted to get into, and we're derailing this thread. I just can't stay away when you make posts that strike me as misrepresentation.
No, you can remove the fae for a number of really significant benefits. That just wasn't the topic. Removing banshee makes the burst significantly less dangerous. Removing redcap/barghest removes bleed mana drain. Removing pixie removes insomnia mana drain. Yes they can build twists no matter what, but without secondary sources of mana drain, you really shouldn't be too bothered by it. The final twist should be less than a third of your mana unless you just have really low mana (I have the exact equations for lash and twist back home on my personal computer somewhere, but I'm at work).
Yes, it's a conversation with a lot of nuance and if/then scenarios.
But whatever, we have a whole thread of people misrepresenting information from that fight, and we're back to trying to attack me when I'm just trying to discuss mechanics and play nice. I'm not trying to misrepresent anything. I happen to have a lot of experience playing an SD, this is just my perspective. So you guys have fun. Can't say I didn't try.
The only fae you really should kill is pooka. The rest of the fae, if you get to low enough damage, will go attack -> shield -> attack, which is true for all killable ents. That is how you easily stop them.
One thing I should note that when Celina and I had our Faethorn fights, Dancer ents were still at 12 seconds (like 75% confident they were) and Guardians can still get Mugwump eq. Did those tip the balance beyond balance? Maybe. But I never died to Twist 7 really except for Kio's Hexen Mugwump Eq.
Also the counter for any built-up instakill is the same from Warriors to Guardians to Wiccans. Attack them to disrupt their timing. If you complain about Twist having no counter, you sure as hell should be fucking complaining about Inquisition, they are mechanically the same thing. A build up till you are incapacitated for x amount of seconds where they can kill you.
Also note: Inquisition has existed for 8ish years longer than Twist and has only received upgrades (only one person being able to finish the Inquisition is a fix similar to Nihilist sac able to be only done by the Cruxer).
Twist is crazy good. Use it until envoys get their shit together.
Enjoy!
If people cry about you using your class' skills, that's on them.
This is shit advice. If you think Twist needs fixing, you should have someone submit a report for Inquisition.
Forums broke my paragraphs, what the hell.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Comments
The fact that you're always insulting certain north fighters, combined with this log makes you look like a hypocrite @Cyndarin. You were certainly right to disengage and ask the midbies whether they're down to die for the lulz. It's logical and there's no fault in that. Just the fact that you're always lashing out at others for skipping fights that you deem to be fair makes you a target.
Let's stop accusing people because any instance can be taken out of context, and instead figure out times/ways/reasons we can have good fun fights (for both sides!)
I think when there is too much imbalance between raiders and defenders somebody should spark up a freeforall or wargames. This solves the issue of discretionary powers, but is annoying because it doesn't feel like anyone has any skin in the game.
Also people should be more willing to sit out a raid if the numbers are too much in their favor. I do this often, and it's really impossible for me to know how much others do it. Basically, if you raid, I don't think you should bring more people than are able to defend. However, defenders should feel free to bring as many as they can.
Or is this too much wishful thinking on my part?
Tonight amidst the mountaintops
And endless starless night
Singing how the wind was lost
Before an earthly flight
If I start deathsong and you gust me, that is a counter.
If I start to steal your shadow and you shield, that is a... oh wait no it isn't I have already successfully stole your shadow.
If start to twist and you shield, that is... oh... huh same as above.... strange...
The only plausible counter is forcing to drop shadow, which you cannot drop off balance so unless you get lucky, that too is not a counter.
I mean if you want to argue that shield is a counter fine, then shield is also a counter to aeon, inquisition, and death.
You do not counter twist, you react to twist, and the best way to react to twist is to delete the trigger from MMF and create your own that tracks twist properly.
I suppose there could be some super secret only cyndarin knows how method of 'countering' twist that no SD I have talked to has ever heard about.
Oh, and for the record. I can handle Twist. It does not mean I don't think it is a BS skill. The two are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps something you need to learn. I can teach you if you like.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Edit: To clarify, I wasn't complaining about twist. I was pretty excited to learn Cyndarin's revelation though. Very disappointing.
Edit to:
Beast sleepcloud + pixie (is what I meant to say)
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
@Yarith: You're right, shield is actually a counter for Celestines if you know how to time your glows (I had it in my system ages ago). It's not a reset for Paladins because raze is superior to nullify/void.
edit: Oh I should say this doesn't work against meteor builds, but hopefully that is addressed in my most recent report.
Did we forget that you are also stunned on final twist?
Nope, I didn't! SDs have two choices during that stun. Drain your mana and you cure out of aeon, or hinder you to prevent the shield. Again, this used to be easier with mugwump. Once you establish that there is no variation in their drains, and that they need you at a certain level of mana before the final twist to toad you, it's easy to counter to them. You set your sip/scroll/sparkle thresholds very high, you don't auto clot your mana down at inopportune times, and you are prepared to react to the final twist appropriately.
You sure like to throw around that partisanship name though, It is not partisanship to just think you are full of it. I mean I have very informed and sometimes argumentative discussions with Sidd without the toxic blathering that you spew, and for that matter every other person in the South that I talk to.
Perhaps the problem is really just you.
Well, this is why I stopped and should've stayed out of it. Maybe you're capable of having a civil discussion with Sidd without misrepresenting what he said, and then getting upset when he's not nice to you back. Maybe you don't like me, so you're just inherently more civil or genuine with Sidd. Maybe when he mentions a specific mechanic or strategy he uses, you don't make snide comments in response. I really don't know. I know when you attack me rather than respond to me, it appears to just be partisanship, be it against me specifically or otherwise. I know I was in the wrong, so I edited myself out of the conversation, I acknowledged I was contributing to a bad environment. You and Ciaran keep repeatedly making less than civil or friendly comments to bring me back in. Please do not call me toxic if that is the kind of behavior you are trying to incite.
Incidentally, the only time you've ever approached me was to attack someone else which you accidentally made public, which I deleted for you and thanked you for the feedback. Maybe the problem isn't really just me. Maybe we're both being dicks.
edit: Except if you're getting meteor'd. Then you just run.
There's beast kick if I am reading the ab correctly, the chance of beast spit mantakaya, webbing will stop shield, all manner of ways, though none of them are instant other than waiting on RNG for spit.
Pretty sure hexen SD with asthma/paralyse will just toad you.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
There are, as stated above, numerous other alternatives (but they mostly involve using fae) If you advocate killing fae though then that's the same as any stonewall strategy. It can be web spamming, shield spamming, gem kethering, lust spamming, etc. It revolves around the other person getting sick of fighting it.
Incidentally, kethering rubies (or running away) was the advice Shedrin gave on a log currently being discussed. So yeah, stonewall tactics, but it's not SD specific by any means.
Note, your stonewalling tactic against SDs is to remove their fae so that they can't prone you, so that you can shield through aeon when they final twist you.
That's not the same. In fact, one of the biggest differences between twist and all other kill methods is that it can't really be stonewalled in any way. They can still build twists no matter what you do. You can however grant yourself a -chance- to counter the final twist with proper prep. (I guess, taking your word for it)
I really don't care about twists though. It's not an argument that I ever wanted to get into, and we're derailing this thread. I just can't stay away when you make posts that strike me as misrepresentation.
Yes, it's a conversation with a lot of nuance and if/then scenarios.
But whatever, we have a whole thread of people misrepresenting information from that fight, and we're back to trying to attack me when I'm just trying to discuss mechanics and play nice. I'm not trying to misrepresent anything. I happen to have a lot of experience playing an SD, this is just my perspective. So you guys have fun. Can't say I didn't try.