You know, I wrote quite a long post in the previous page, in which I laid out my position and thoughts on this topic. I certainly do make arguments that slant toward the monk - in no instance did I ever make the statement or the insinuation that I am unbiased. I also try my best to acknowledge opposing arguments - whether I agree or not, I at least try to engage it, and make my position plain and openly visible to anyone who cares enough to read.
If you can't be bothered to do the same, or at least offer intellectual engagement, that's fine. I don't really care whether or not you feel invested enough to put in the effort - if you at least post logs, that's more than enough. Logs offer raw data for analysis, can be used as evidence for a properly articulated argument, can form the basis for suggestions, and can be used by others who do more than just sit around and whine.
But if your contribution is not even a proper log, and consists of only thinly veiled snark which purpose is to only salve your ego and make you feel knowledgeable and superior, then... Well, poor Wobou and Anelissa and Malarious (who isn't even an envoy, by the way).
Although, looking at it another way, whether anything comes out of their brainstorming sessions, at least they helped to let someone feel more important and smartassy, I guess.
They seems way too much in your log saz can you post the rest to make sure you were fully defeded/had cured sensitivity/Auric's etc? That doesn't seem right? What was the set up and such?
As to the other log yep Monks do an insane amount of damage yep you just kind of have to deal with it in group fights until the monk overhaul goes through.
Just the same way as people have been dealing with wobous damage for a long time or tarkens damage more recently.
Try focusing them first. I found as a bonecrusher I could lock down wobou to prevent them hurting the team, can't do it as an axelord quite as well but just adapt learn and you'll improve with a bit of practice and testing.
Even if he -did- have sensitivity (he didn't) it would be kinda hard to justify 2700 damage with a basic nekai/nekai/kick combo. Let alone a 0 setup one.
But if your contribution is not even a proper log, and consists of only thinly veiled snark which purpose is to only salve your ego and make you feel knowledgeable and superior, then... Well, poor Wobou and Anelissa and Malarious (who isn't even an envoy, by the way).
I don't see how Yarith and Saz's logs are partial/incomplete/improper.
For Yarith's case -- should 1 person die if they're being hit by 2 people? Maybe. Questionable. Should it look like the 2 people are holding down 1 button on the keyboard? I mean, I guess, but that's unsatisfying.
The problem with monks from the perspective of everyone who has to face them is that they are doing pre-overhaul damage/afflictions in a post-overhaul setting. That is really all it boils down to.
In this specific instance Tarken has also got a couple of friends to help him expose how dangerous certain synergies in this game are.
Anelissa already got Iosai's pre-approval to look at reducing/capping monk damage if the monk envoys can agree to it. Unfortunately, some of them aren't budging.
I'd imagine you'd need to be tweaking the instant kills and afflictions as well of monks if you were reducing the damage. It seems a bit tricky as without damage most monks cant really do anything. I mean tahetso would still be very viable even if it did next to no damage. Shofang/neko/ninja rely upon doing damage to kill anyone. Well I guess Shofang could spam crunch moves.
Should the game be held hostage by the fact that one class is doing insane amounts of damage in groups just because they haven't been overhauled? I don't think so. If damage kills are already not viable in 1v1 as is the common argument against nerfing the damage, then what is the harm in lowering it? Keep in mind that they are not the only class where damage killing isn't viable in 1v1. In fact, no class can damage kill viably in a 1v1. They already come with a lot of affliction pressure and have instakills that have been pulled off in 1v1. Some classes can't even say that much.
I'd imagine you'd need to be tweaking the instant kills and afflictions as well of monks if you were reducing the damage.
Why? No one is suggesting making them do no damage. Just damage that is actually manageable. See: 2700 damage, 0 momentum, basic bashing combo. Which only gets stronger when they get higher mo. and start adding in other moves. Literally 0 reason why it should be that high. Even at 5mo it shouldn't be, considering the bleeding / all the affs that start piling on.
Oblate Tarken, Votary of Wasp sings, "She is the one named Mother Moon."
That itself wins the log.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I mean some monks like tahetso would do alright with no damage at all but most of the others are stuck with damage as their only viable kill route. It'd be like a warrior without a instant kill.
Just tweak the instant kills make them somewhat viable and reduce the damage at the same time. Keeps monks functional and keeps everyone happy.
The game is not "held hostage" by anything if players continue to have avenues to provide thoughtful reports with viable solutions directly to the administration.
You do not need monk envoy permission to effect change.
edit: I nerfed the aeon mob, I BELIEVE IN YOU TOO.
Tankable up to a point, is the ideal scenario. Not "wtf hit me" straight as you enter the Monk's room, right up until you die. Pretty sure there'd be considerably less complaining about Monks, if they had been hitting you for 15-20s prior to doing 2.5-3k (minimum) damage combos on you. As oppposed to starting at 2500 on first hit, and ramping up even higher from there.
True but thats because they have damage to do it. They need enough damage to force you to sip health and enough bleed to drain your mana to 0 then they can final sting solo. Take away the damage and then they become pureblade pre exsanguinate change.
I don't think it's fair at all to try to blame monk envoys for the current state of monks.
Instead, it would be more productive to try to communicate to the administration that simply waiting for the overhaul to make any adjustments to monks is a bad move. The impression I've gotten is "they're going to be overhauled, just wait for that," but I don't think anyone playing thinks that's a satisfactory solution.
Monks want to be updated and know where their class is even going, and non-monk people want to not get monked by these outliers in their eternal overhaul limbo. It's frustrating to die to them, but taking it out on other players isn't going to do anything to help.
Anelissa already got Iosai's pre-approval to look at reducing/capping monk damage if the monk envoys can agree to it. Unfortunately, some of them aren't budging.
It would probably be more productive to attempt to reason with them rather than call them biased. You'll rarely get someone to be willing to work with you on something by taking shots at them on the forums. Yeah, people should be open to adjusting it, because monks are in a pretty goofy place. I can also see why some of the less fortunate monks might be hesitant to take a downward adjustment on damage. But no, I don't think that means trying to shame them into working on it is the right approach. If anything, it's counterproductive.
Nekotai bleed certainly is right now helped by m&m's less-than-optimal bleed curing at some places. But even if m&m's bleed is fixed to be fully optimal, I think it will still be viable, maybe take slightly longer - if not, a little tweaks here and there to the threshold or to a couple of the Nekotai supporting skills is all that will be needed, pending other unforseen changes.
The damage is the only potential problem here - as I mentioned, I've explained how Nekotai afflictions worked, and have also explained how the majority of the old Nekotai afflictions support a strategy that is no longer really viable, and has been reduced in their ability to hinder curing. The five afflictions that Nekotai give are of little import because most of it aren't overhauled afflictions - not to mention the fact that they can't even do 5 afflictions repeatedly.
I have also explained, quite clearly I felt, why exactly monk damage is currently in its state. It's not a reasonless thing.
None of the above is new - I've laid it out before in this thread.
I also see zero reason why Anelissa does not need to get all the monk envoys to agree to her suggested changes - I expect to do the same if I were driving a monk-wide change, and I'm certainly going to push to have at least a channel to provide my input. I am certainly appreciative she's taken the initiative to approach me and other monks to talk about it, and we most certainly are talking about it. Just to put it out there, I'm against a hardcap on monk damage - I've explained to Anelissa my position on this and why in a message, and I've also expressed this on the clan we use to discuss this. I've also said that I do not oppose changing the base damage itself, instead - if it is a problem. Logs certainly do help to show what, and where, needs changing, and by how much.
Maligorn, I have no problem with Yarith and Saz's logs. Those are helpful. There's plenty of examples of the unhelpful comments that I have a problem with in this page alone. I don't have the time to respond to each and single one of them - nor do I have any inclination to. Edit: In the interests of being constructive, I've edited out a sentence I put here that disdains ignorance.
Also, regarding the knighthood hitting a single more impactful affliction than the 5 nekotai can deliver in a form (technically it's four poison attempts maximum and 3 afflictions from the actual ka moves excluding spronghai vessels), nekotai, and all other monks still have access to some combination of severed spine, tendons, or mutilates, each of which have cures longer than the single form required to recuperate the momentum to afflict it again in the next form.
EDIT: And this affliction comes with the damage, poison attempts, and supplementary afflictions which knighthood cannot deliver.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
They seems way too much in your log saz can you post the rest to make sure you were fully defeded/had cured sensitivity/Auric's etc? That doesn't seem right? What was the set up and such?
As to the other log yep Monks do an insane amount of damage yep you just kind of have to deal with it in group fights until the monk overhaul goes through.
Just the same way as people have been dealing with wobous damage for a long time or tarkens damage more recently.
Try focusing them first. I found as a bonecrusher I could lock down wobou to prevent them hurting the team, can't do it as an axelord quite as well but just adapt learn and you'll improve with a bit of practice and testing.
Hey! I've just read this, unfortunately I don't have the rest of the log at the moment. But that was the beginning of the fight. I melded one room adjacent then climbed into trees and went into their room and Tarken pulled me down momentarily as you can see from the start of the log. I've had full defences, no extra afflictions. And I think I shrugged all the afflictions via Karsav and Tarken during that 4.5 seconds period as well.
But looking at that log I noticed my sparkle healing was broken so I fixed that later on, all in all it'd be just 1 sparkle in that time window anyways. For fairness, there's that.
"Oh the year was 453CE, how I wish I was in Serenwilde now... aletter of marque come from the regent to the scummiest aethership I ever seen, gods damn them all...I was told we'd cruise the void for auronidion and dust, we'd fire no turrets, shed no tears.. now I'm a broken man on a Hallifax tier, the last of Saz's privateers."
Also, regarding nekotai and finalsting - Damage is most certainly not the reason that you get finalsting. You overwhelm them with dust afflictions, force them to focus the dust on either haemophilia or paralysis - by the next form they have either and you've advanced poison chance * dust afflictions.
In fact, damage is the reason you don't see finalsting often. Going for it is unnecessary and, in most situations they'll have died to damage before you have a window to kill them with it.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
Well the reason would be unanimous consent is a really ineffective way to facilitate change of any kind. That's not really how the system works for anyone else, monks have always seemed to self impose some kind of bureaucracy on themselves since conception. I never understood Something Monkish as some kind of pseudo extension of the envoys. At best it's redundant, at worst I've seen it become an echo chamber of bad ideas (years ago).
I think it's easy to fall into the "monk-wide changes affect monks" mindset that is often expressed. The reality is it affects the entire game. Envoys are empowered to act independently for a reason. Adding another layer just makes changes drag on forever. Perfect example: this current monk damage issue is over a year old. Someone should probably just propose a change at this point, be it hardcap or removal of modifiers or what have you and allow the envoy process to do what it's designed to do.
Or everyone can discuss how much they hate monks version 4.7 in a year (disclaimer: may happen anyways).
Also, regarding the knighthood hitting a single more impactful affliction than the 5 nekotai can deliver in a form (technically it's four poison attempts maximum and 3 afflictions from the actual ka moves excluding spronghai vessels), nekotai, and all other monks still have access to some combination of severed spine, tendons, or mutilates, each of which have cures longer than the single form required to recuperate the momentum to afflict it again in the next form.
EDIT: And this affliction comes with the damage, poison attempts, and supplementary afflictions which knighthood cannot deliver.
First of all, the comment regarding tendons/severedspine/mutilates is incorrect. Nekotai prone-regen affs (now ice affs with 4s cure delays) cost 2 momentum. That's 2 forms to recover. The only exception is Oriama grapple ender, which cost 2 arm actions instead of one - and still cost 1 momentum anyway. 2 momentum cost requires 2 forms to recover from, and contitutes a drop of at least 550 ka weight if you use it from the maximum 5mo.
Each form is around 3s - which means recovering from a 2mo drop is 9s (3s balance recovery from the actual prone-aff form, and then 2 forms thereafter, to get back to the pre-aff momentum).
I'm not 100% sure of new mutilated legs and how it cures, and I'm not sure about the other monks, but a Nekotai can't give you the aff again without a healthy window inbetween wherein you've cured the affliction.
Secondly, like I said, finalsting is fine as-is, and isn't affected by the damage. It's not the problem here.
Well the reason would be unanimous consent is a really ineffective way to facilitate change of any kind. That's not really how the system works for anyone else, monks have always seemed to self impose some kind of bureaucracy on themselves since conception. I never understood Something Monkish as some kind of pseudo extension of the envoys. At best it's redundant, at worst I've seen it become an echo chamber of bad ideas (years ago).
I think it's easy to fall into the "monk-wide changes affect monks" mindset that is often expressed. The reality is it affects the entire game. Envoys are empowered to act independently for a reason. Adding another layer just makes changes drag on forever. Perfect example: this current monk damage issue is over a year old. Someone should probably just propose a change at this point, be it hardcap or removal of modifiers or what have you and allow the envoy process to do what it's designed to do.
Or everyone can discuss how much they hate monks version 4.7 in a year (disclaimer: may happen anyways).
Lastly, unanimous consent is a slow way to facilitate change, yes, but I'm not really going to say "Yeah, go ahead and do everything you want without input from me." If I have no time to look at this, I'll let someone else take the lead, as I have. If I have no time to even offer input, I'll let someone else by the Nekotai envoy. Either way, I'm fully opposed to pushing changes through without properly looking at it from all the relevant perspectives and positions, or getting feedback from other stakeholders.
Something Monkish takes in all monks - it's an echo chamber for monks, yes. However, if you think there are no disagreements amongst monks, you're just being obtuse. This very situation is because there is no consensus, yet. Those in the clan invested in affecting change put forth their positions passionately, and clearly. Wobou and I disagree on any number of issues and concerns, as much or even more than those we agree on, and I would have it no other way. Something Monkish is something I inherently support - if it's an avenue that gives me, an envoy, input from monks who are not envoys, I'm going to support it. This is not the first time I've expressed that I think envoys should work input from the users of the skills they are envoying - this has been my position for longer than I have been an envoy. I can gather such input from channels such as tells, individual messages, forum private messages, or just commenting on a report that Anelissa makes, whatever. But I also work with Something Monkish - and it works.
To imply on one hand that efficiency and speed must be prioritised and then to put down Something Monkish as being ineffective because it is slow and an "echo chamber" are unreconcilable positions, really. I'm not sure why we're even having this discussion. Something Monkish is a channel for monks, envoys or not, and I would have it no other way. If you're opposed to it... well, that's not my problem.
As it is, if Anelissa is not making a report first in order to ensure that whatever report she makes has a higher chance of success, I'll support her decision all the way. I would also look for the avenue that guarantees the most amount of success for my reports.
Comments
If you can't be bothered to do the same, or at least offer intellectual engagement, that's fine. I don't really care whether or not you feel invested enough to put in the effort - if you at least post logs, that's more than enough. Logs offer raw data for analysis, can be used as evidence for a properly articulated argument, can form the basis for suggestions, and can be used by others who do more than just sit around and whine.
But if your contribution is not even a proper log, and consists of only thinly veiled snark which purpose is to only salve your ego and make you feel knowledgeable and superior, then... Well, poor Wobou and Anelissa and Malarious (who isn't even an envoy, by the way).
Although, looking at it another way, whether anything comes out of their brainstorming sessions, at least they helped to let someone feel more important and smartassy, I guess.
As to the other log yep Monks do an insane amount of damage yep you just kind of have to deal with it in group fights until the monk overhaul goes through.
Just the same way as people have been dealing with wobous damage for a long time or tarkens damage more recently.
Try focusing them first. I found as a bonecrusher I could lock down wobou to prevent them hurting the team, can't do it as an axelord quite as well but just adapt learn and you'll improve with a bit of practice and testing.
Even if he -did- have sensitivity (he didn't) it would be kinda hard to justify 2700 damage with a basic nekai/nekai/kick combo. Let alone a 0 setup one.
Discord: Rey#1460
For Yarith's case -- should 1 person die if they're being hit by 2 people? Maybe. Questionable. Should it look like the 2 people are holding down 1 button on the keyboard? I mean, I guess, but that's unsatisfying.
In this specific instance Tarken has also got a couple of friends to help him expose how dangerous certain synergies in this game are.
Anelissa already got Iosai's pre-approval to look at reducing/capping monk damage if the monk envoys can agree to it. Unfortunately, some of them aren't budging.
See: 2700 damage, 0 momentum, basic bashing combo. Which only gets stronger when they get higher mo. and start adding in other moves. Literally 0 reason why it should be that high. Even at 5mo it shouldn't be, considering the bleeding / all the affs that start piling on.
Discord: Rey#1460
That itself wins the log.
I mean some monks like tahetso would do alright with no damage at all but most of the others are stuck with damage as their only viable kill route. It'd be like a warrior without a instant kill.
Just tweak the instant kills make them somewhat viable and reduce the damage at the same time. Keeps monks functional and keeps everyone happy.
You do not need monk envoy permission to effect change.
edit: I nerfed the aeon mob, I BELIEVE IN YOU TOO.
Tankable up to a point, is the ideal scenario. Not "wtf hit me" straight as you enter the Monk's room, right up until you die. Pretty sure there'd be considerably less complaining about Monks, if they had been hitting you for 15-20s prior to doing 2.5-3k (minimum) damage combos on you. As oppposed to starting at 2500 on first hit, and ramping up even higher from there.
Discord: Rey#1460
Instead, it would be more productive to try to communicate to the administration that simply waiting for the overhaul to make any adjustments to monks is a bad move. The impression I've gotten is "they're going to be overhauled, just wait for that," but I don't think anyone playing thinks that's a satisfactory solution.
Monks want to be updated and know where their class is even going, and non-monk people want to not get monked by these outliers in their eternal overhaul limbo. It's frustrating to die to them, but taking it out on other players isn't going to do anything to help.
Adjustments until the 'overhaul' happens. Yes.
Discord: Rey#1460
The damage is the only potential problem here - as I mentioned, I've explained how Nekotai afflictions worked, and have also explained how the majority of the old Nekotai afflictions support a strategy that is no longer really viable, and has been reduced in their ability to hinder curing. The five afflictions that Nekotai give are of little import because most of it aren't overhauled afflictions - not to mention the fact that they can't even do 5 afflictions repeatedly.
I have also explained, quite clearly I felt, why exactly monk damage is currently in its state. It's not a reasonless thing.
None of the above is new - I've laid it out before in this thread.
I also see zero reason why Anelissa does not need to get all the monk envoys to agree to her suggested changes - I expect to do the same if I were driving a monk-wide change, and I'm certainly going to push to have at least a channel to provide my input. I am certainly appreciative she's taken the initiative to approach me and other monks to talk about it, and we most certainly are talking about it. Just to put it out there, I'm against a hardcap on monk damage - I've explained to Anelissa my position on this and why in a message, and I've also expressed this on the clan we use to discuss this. I've also said that I do not oppose changing the base damage itself, instead - if it is a problem. Logs certainly do help to show what, and where, needs changing, and by how much.
Maligorn, I have no problem with Yarith and Saz's logs. Those are helpful. There's plenty of examples of the unhelpful comments that I have a problem with in this page alone. I don't have the time to respond to each and single one of them - nor do I have any inclination to. Edit: In the interests of being constructive, I've edited out a sentence I put here that disdains ignorance.
EDIT: And this affliction comes with the damage, poison attempts, and supplementary afflictions which knighthood cannot deliver.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
But looking at that log I noticed my sparkle healing was broken so I fixed that later on, all in all it'd be just 1 sparkle in that time window anyways. For fairness, there's that.
-Kilian
In fact, damage is the reason you don't see finalsting often. Going for it is unnecessary and, in most situations they'll have died to damage before you have a window to kill them with it.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
The free haemophilia is spronghai.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
I think it's easy to fall into the "monk-wide changes affect monks" mindset that is often expressed. The reality is it affects the entire game. Envoys are empowered to act independently for a reason. Adding another layer just makes changes drag on forever. Perfect example: this current monk damage issue is over a year old. Someone should probably just propose a change at this point, be it hardcap or removal of modifiers or what have you and allow the envoy process to do what it's designed to do.
Or everyone can discuss how much they hate monks version 4.7 in a year (disclaimer: may happen anyways).
Each form is around 3s - which means recovering from a 2mo drop is 9s (3s balance recovery from the actual prone-aff form, and then 2 forms thereafter, to get back to the pre-aff momentum).
I'm not 100% sure of new mutilated legs and how it cures, and I'm not sure about the other monks, but a Nekotai can't give you the aff again without a healthy window inbetween wherein you've cured the affliction.
Secondly, like I said, finalsting is fine as-is, and isn't affected by the damage. It's not the problem here.
Lastly, unanimous consent is a slow way to facilitate change, yes, but I'm not really going to say "Yeah, go ahead and do everything you want without input from me." If I have no time to look at this, I'll let someone else take the lead, as I have. If I have no time to even offer input, I'll let someone else by the Nekotai envoy. Either way, I'm fully opposed to pushing changes through without properly looking at it from all the relevant perspectives and positions, or getting feedback from other stakeholders.
Something Monkish takes in all monks - it's an echo chamber for monks, yes. However, if you think there are no disagreements amongst monks, you're just being obtuse. This very situation is because there is no consensus, yet. Those in the clan invested in affecting change put forth their positions passionately, and clearly. Wobou and I disagree on any number of issues and concerns, as much or even more than those we agree on, and I would have it no other way. Something Monkish is something I inherently support - if it's an avenue that gives me, an envoy, input from monks who are not envoys, I'm going to support it. This is not the first time I've expressed that I think envoys should work input from the users of the skills they are envoying - this has been my position for longer than I have been an envoy. I can gather such input from channels such as tells, individual messages, forum private messages, or just commenting on a report that Anelissa makes, whatever. But I also work with Something Monkish - and it works.
To imply on one hand that efficiency and speed must be prioritised and then to put down Something Monkish as being ineffective because it is slow and an "echo chamber" are unreconcilable positions, really. I'm not sure why we're even having this discussion. Something Monkish is a channel for monks, envoys or not, and I would have it no other way. If you're opposed to it... well, that's not my problem.
As it is, if Anelissa is not making a report first in order to ensure that whatever report she makes has a higher chance of success, I'll support her decision all the way. I would also look for the avenue that guarantees the most amount of success for my reports.