As you see Succumb is a Serenwilde only skill, unlike Monks so if you wish to compare it with something compare it with Bonds report. Despite this "orgloyalty" the offer to level it down comes from that same org as it's a balance concern. And it's significantly different than what happened with the Bonds report, in that aspect. What's left about Succumb after this point is how and when will Iosai take up on it when she has time.
Monks on the other hand, are a game-wide class and concern. Which is argued that two envoys are trying to slow down the balance-process or take it off the table. (At least that's what I've been reading in the last few pages). Another point that doesn't apply to Succumb reports. In my opinion, comparing the situation with monks and succumb is pretty much apples to oranges anyways.
"Oh the year was 453CE, how I wish I was in Serenwilde now... aletter of marque come from the regent to the scummiest aethership I ever seen, gods damn them all...I was told we'd cruise the void for auronidion and dust, we'd fire no turrets, shed no tears.. now I'm a broken man on a Hallifax tier, the last of Saz's privateers."
Ok just had a totally random idea on succumb as you asked.
How about this for making it fun, powerful and interesting but not super crazy in groups because the issue that it seems to be having is to be good solo its going to be insane for groups and adjusting the numbers wont really fix that underlying problem.
Buff the mana drain on it(do make it a base+% though to make it more sensible as opposed to a fixed number for the calculations), make it so only afflictions from the moon dancer cause the increased mana drain. Also this makes it more viable for one on one.
And also make the target of succumb immune to mana kills wrack/toad/absolve from anyone other than the caster of succumb while succumb is present on the target and for a few seconds after succumb finishes.
One on one it'd mean the moon dancers target has eight seconds for to run or hinder or otherwise prevent the incoming toad. The MD then has 8 seconds to pin and drain the target before they get power back. All fair enough as its got counter play and such.
In groups it'll mean very much so that a Moondancer can easily drain a targets mana to toad level within the first tick or so with other peoples mana drains helping but it'll prevent another mana killer pretty much instantly taking over the kill and people wont get killed in seconds like they do now.
It'll give some good counter play in that the group will know the the md has cast succumb and will have eight seconds to save the target or kill or hinder the moondancer. It'll turn succumb into a sort of mobile instant kill. Cast it and then if the moon dancer does their job right the target gets toaded in eight seconds but it can be countered by shifting out of it or defending right.
What. I literally said I would treat every report the same, the exact same as I would treat Anelissa's report, whether she made one with consensus or no consensus.
... Regarding other (non-monk) envoys making a report - the admin don't like that, but it's not like it hasn't been done before. I'll still respond to it the same way I'd respond to Anelissa's report, if and when she makes it. ...
... If any other envoy would like to make a report without these advantages, at the risk of getting a solution that doesn't meet their objectives, or even a direct rejection, it's their prerogative, it's their right. Just like it is Anelissa's right to decide when to proceed with the report - with our input or not. ...
... Just to put it out there, I'm against a hardcap on monk damage - I've explained to Anelissa my position on this and why in a message, and I've also expressed this on the clan we use to discuss this. I've also said that I do not oppose changing the base damage itself, instead - if it is a problem. Logs certainly do help to show what, and where, needs changing, and by how much. ...
I'm risking more warn levels with my cursing, but seriously. Do you even fucking read?
Man -- I'm sorry if you didn't explicitly type it, but all of your posts have been "I'll OK a monk change if it at least passes by me and the SM clan"....which implies you'll be doing the opposite if not. It bothers me, but in the interest of not having you freak out, I'll edit the post away.
I said, repeatedly, that I appreciate the route Anelissa has chosen to go with this - which is to do her best to get consensus. In fact, though, that's an assumption on my part -she never said to us, or at least, to me, that she would only put up a report if she had all our okays, and I never took it for granted either. She first approached me about this a day or two after Yarith's first log, and I responded to her suggestions with my concerns and why I thought a hardcap was a bad idea. A couple of weeks later, I was online when a similar discussion was going on in SM, and I participated in it to give my opinions.
Under no circumstance did I ever say to Anelissa, explicitly or implicitly, that she has to wait for me to give my holy O.K. before she can write her report. I was working under no such impression, and all of my posts have been to refute that characterisation of the same thing being done in Something Monkish - because it is not, to my knowledge. The clan was made to facilitate discussion and communication. I say this repeatedly, and have said it repeatedly. Explicitly. Literally.
I listed out the obvious advantages to cooperation - the flipside to the "slowness" and inefficiency that Celina brought up. Which is, of course, valid. But I reject, and still do reject, the repeated and, at this point, really, the idiotic idea that this is a deliberate attempt by envoys to block changes.
There literally is no way for me to stop Anelissa from hitting the enter button on making a report. I can comment my concerns and objections, if I have any, and I fully intend to do so for any report, not just reports about monks, that I have concerns or objections to. And that includes reports Anelissa makes, and that includes her reports EVEN IF SHE GOT MY OKAY BEFOREHAND. If a concern that I had previously missed crops up, I will still comment it onto the report. If that concern is from a third party reading the report and sending a tell or message my way, and I find it has validity, I'll put it out for discussion on the comments. If that concern is from a late night shower and sudden idea, I'll also put it out for discussion.
When Anelissa approaches me beforehand, she can lay out her position to me, and I can mine to her before she writes her report. That can possibly allow her to change my mind - and vice versa. It's, like Celina says, an extra step that would have taken place anyway - but if it succeeds, it's a step that could pre-empt any concerns I have that she can explain away. And if as a result of that, I have no concerns to raise, all the better. The cleaner, the stronger her report will actually be. If a consensus is not reached, she can still put out her report, and I will still comment my concerns, and the merits of both will be recorded for whoever makes the final decision.
As a note, almost all of my reports were made without getting "consensus" from Something Monkish. I will be surprised if all of Wobou's reports were made with the same kind of "consensus", because I surely do not remember giving my aparently haloed agreement to some of the reports he have made. The same applies to any number of other reports made by monks. I say this again, for one. Last. Time. The clan is for communication.
I'm still trying to figure out what Illuminati does. Failed timequake because I forgot aeon has a set time before it expires. Should've done much sooner. Don't attempt soulless / chasm if you're ruby stacked! Was fun, Enadonella.
Loving Researcher so far even though I don't have a Tert. Thanks to @Yarith and @Shedrin for getting me this far! I shall get better at executing strats soooooon.
Shifting out of it or defending it right is already the correct and possible counter play to succumb.
the numbers are too high though your in toad range a split second after a single stun. Succumb, tick, toaded\absolved\wracked by an ally. If you lower the numbers to reasonable levels for group combat it's going to be super useless solo or in very small groups though.
It's going to be kinda impossible to balance it in its current form without leaving it as insane for one group and useless for another. If we get creative with it though we can make it good and balanced for both solo small and large groups.
Woo my first 'legit' timequake. After getting stomped twice... Log would've been shorter if I didn't mishit my shatterplex combo, when I was meant to web. https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/MWENWDCM
Ok just had a totally random idea on succumb as you asked.
How about this for making it fun, powerful and interesting but not super crazy in groups because the issue that it seems to be having is to be good solo its going to be insane for groups and adjusting the numbers wont really fix that underlying problem.
Buff the mana drain on it(do make it a base+% though to make it more sensible as opposed to a fixed number for the calculations), make it so only afflictions from the moon dancer cause the increased mana drain. Also this makes it more viable for one on one.
And also make the target of succumb immune to mana kills wrack/toad/absolve from anyone other than the caster of succumb while succumb is present on the target and for a few seconds after succumb finishes.
One on one it'd mean the moon dancers target has eight seconds for to run or hinder or otherwise prevent the incoming toad. The MD then has 8 seconds to pin and drain the target before they get power back. All fair enough as its got counter play and such.
In groups it'll mean very much so that a Moondancer can easily drain a targets mana to toad level within the first tick or so with other peoples mana drains helping but it'll prevent another mana killer pretty much instantly taking over the kill and people wont get killed in seconds like they do now.
It'll give some good counter play in that the group will know the the md has cast succumb and will have eight seconds to save the target or kill or hinder the moondancer. It'll turn succumb into a sort of mobile instant kill. Cast it and then if the moon dancer does their job right the target gets toaded in eight seconds but it can be countered by shifting out of it or defending right.
Alright, I'll take you serious, as you say it's a serious suggestion.
The problem on 1vs1 is certainly not the mana drain, even with current succumb. You will not improve the situation 1vs1 by increasing it, as the target can just walk out as it always can before the md regenerates power ( you need 8p for toad, succumb costs 3p ). The problem is that Moondancers traditional / old kill method was sleeplock + old succumb, which their whole 'set' ( I barely want to call it that ), is geared towards and we're still transitioning away from that to actually be able to support this new succumb ( even though succumb needs to settle for that first ).
Even if you block out toad/absolve from others, you'll pretty much not stop people complaining about it, because they get to be killed so "easily" ( in their eyes ). Aside of that, you'll push moondancers in priority a lot higher then any present melders, which am not sure I like much.
Given that, I'm not saying your idea wouldn't work, I'm mostly saying am not sure it's a good idea to make MD an even higher priority target, group combat is already quite fast as it is.
edit: I wished that every ability that's complained about would get this much focus and agreement to work on :-(
Running away from an instant kill is a very real issue for many instant kills and classes. Or shielding against some. On top of that MD's already have a few ways of pinning or hindering people down and you do have to kind of work towards an instant kill you cant expect it to be handed to you on a platter. Plus if you feel the MDs hindering skills are not up to par you can envoy a few changes to get buffs to the MDs hindrance skills.
Running wouldnt stop the toad happening either its not a room based skill you can simply chase and follow to work on it. An eight second window in one on one is pretty similar to most timed instant kills but is some what superior in that you can be mobile and chase while working to it.
If your problem is that your getting targeted because your instant kill is so good then thats a good problem for a class to have. People like monks and moondancers get targeted early due to their overpowered skills right now.
If your only real complaint is with succumb being too easy to run from one on one then what are you planning to do with it to? It sort of seems to be though that you'd be better off adjusting succumb and then looking at md hindrance and anti running skills separately instead of trying to make succumb the single answer to all your problems. I cant really see a way to make succumb an anti-running instant kill without making it pretty insane, more so than it already is.
EDIT: People do tend to get interested in trying to fix things that are having a large unbalancing effect on combat.
On top of that MD's already have a few ways of pinning or hindering people down and you do have to kind of work towards an instant kill you cant expect it to be handed to you on a platter.
MDs have 0 viable hinder. Wane will never be worth it, all they have is simple webbing enchantments and vines.
And I don't know @Veyils, shielding up and moving away from the room is pretty solid for most timed instas not just for succumb (Astro meteors, Dsong, Judge, DeathTarot). And the methods to get away from a toad are much simpler in comparison to other advices such as "ignore mucous so your equilibrium isn't destroyed by an Illuminati" advice, that's just an example not a shade btw. It's a great advice in core.
Alternatively, you can use pacifism or just hard-hindering on the MD that's succumbing you for a different approach. You're only taking a Hexes+MD combination in mind and Hexes.. Have not been considered as a problem till Succumb has changed. I'd also like you to ponder how Succumb works with Healing/Astro for an example. Then you'll see it's not really the succumb itself that's broken it's the synergy that it attains via multiple mental affs that seems problematic.
I'm not saying the MD aren't getting you fast in the kill zone. They do, but probably because I've sparred a lot with the MDs, I feel their burst is most predictable and easy to handle for myself, perhaps you'll feel the same way over time.
"Oh the year was 453CE, how I wish I was in Serenwilde now... aletter of marque come from the regent to the scummiest aethership I ever seen, gods damn them all...I was told we'd cruise the void for auronidion and dust, we'd fire no turrets, shed no tears.. now I'm a broken man on a Hallifax tier, the last of Saz's privateers."
Running away from an instant kill is a very real issue for many instant kills and classes. Or shielding against some. On top of that MD's already have a few ways of pinning or hindering people down and you do have to kind of work towards an instant kill you cant expect it to be handed to you on a platter. Plus if you feel the MDs hindering skills are not up to par you can envoy a few changes to get buffs to the MDs hindrance skills.
Running wouldnt stop the toad happening either its not a room based skill you can simply chase and follow to work on it. An eight second window in one on one is pretty similar to most timed instant kills but is some what superior in that you can be mobile and chase while working to it.
If your problem is that your getting targeted because your instant kill is so good then thats a good problem for a class to have. People like monks and moondancers get targeted early due to their overpowered skills right now.
If your only real complaint is with succumb being too easy to run from one on one then what are you planning to do with it to? It sort of seems to be though that you'd be better off adjusting succumb and then looking at md hindrance and anti running skills separately instead of trying to make succumb the single answer to all your problems. I cant really see a way to make succumb an anti-running instant kill without making it pretty insane, more so than it already is.
EDIT: People do tend to get interested in trying to fix things that are having a large unbalancing effect on combat.
Sorry, are you knowing a different MD skillset then I do ? What kind of hinders are you talking about ? nature vine? the 8 second eq for 1.5 second aeon waning? the 0.5 second balance loss thanks to pigwidgeon every 10 seconds? the unpredictable and 2 power costing moondance shafts ( which isn't a hinder, it just keeps you in the room, can still fly out or just spam the exit ). I would really love where this perception comes from. MD had powerful hindering, back when sleeplocks were a thing, but sleeplock is no longer a thing.... so, huh?
actually the escape works pretty well, 8 seconds isn't that much. move two rooms away and by the time we get back to you you've cured all afflictions you had -and- cured the mana back up, so even if you managed to redraw the afflictions the 3p is wasted and we can't toad you. Aside of that, a simple shield or even some well placed hinder will stop succumb in it's tracks in a 1vs1 scenario, as demonstrated, again, by yourself several times.
I also never said am planning / or going to use succumb to make the answer to hindering, I merely pointed out a rather big flaw in md's skillset a problem with it. Succumb itself is a manadraining ability and will not do more then that.
My "only real complaint" to your solution is that I don't think I want MD's to be even more focused in combat then they already are and that it won't make people more accepting of the skillset, because they still die very fast if it goes through.
if your edit statement were true... we would have a much nicer life. Reality is a little different, but that goes over the scope of this discussion.
edit: succumb is entirely geared towards hexen. No astrologer nor healer can ever hope to make real gain on it, aside of allies providing all affliction pressure. Healers can't generate the afflictions needed on their own and astrologers are very random, while there may be a nieche use with it, I don't think anyone really wants to use that and rather work towards their tertiary skills kill method.
To explain a little more on the "not more focused then they already are". The sort of change that you proclaimed, if an enemy had this, I would probably try to kill them as soon as they enter simply because they can drop us -fast-, even faster as the current succumb.
I don't want to have that kind of ability either in MD nor do I want to put people on the 'other side' through an ability like that.
The wicca skillset itself is... really quite bad. Shadowdancers have been barely floated by the few really broken skills left in Night and twist's race-to-the-kill mechanic. Moondancers have been barely kept relevant with sleeplocks and being-the-only-practical-Seren-instakill and the source of aeon. They're semicompetent bags of smattered afflictions and random effects. Feast or famine is the order of the day, and it's mostly famine.
As a heads up, I promised a report for succumb, sadly this will not be happening ( due to my own time constraints and, after longer discussions with several people, discovering yet another flaw I'd be introducing with the changes I had envisoned ... ). For me, it turns out, that this thing is a pain to balance (not to say a pain ) and no matter how you twist and turn it, it's either completely nuts or completely useless, with a thin veil in between. So I've asked wobou to amend his report to make changes to hopefully having a temporarily resolution to succumb (lowering on-hit drain slightly, requiring unique afflictions for drain to happen and removing the drain from non-caster sources). I think I'll end up trying to revamp this into something different that'll hopefully be better balanceable then the current version, the next envoy cycle. Main reason for this step is that I'll not be here next week and then it'll already be the 15, thus running out of time, while not wanting to let this thing go untouched.
My first -actual- wargames that wasn't a colossal stomp one way or the other.
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/RgGb-FE- / Rolsand and Reylari vs the world--(quite an unlikely combination!)--after Aeldra gets monk'd. I also need to fix my gem (re)targeting. Rolsand tells you, "(( it was mostly you."
Was fun. That was some crazy affstack on Veyils at the start.
@Reylari Was a fun fight. The healing aura built up pretty quickly on me with you hindering the curing with aeon. I messed up a little with not having traps set up in the side rooms. If I'd have prepared I'd not have got hit with that 10k cauterize hit, would have been able to tumble away and hopefully cure up. I've got my healing fixed to cure aurawarp as quick as possible but healing is a bit of a pain to fight against even with perfect curing its a timed death sentence. So we were hoping to kill the healer quick enough before we got to that point but you and Rolsand did some pretty good hindering to our team and kept your healer alive long enough for the aurawarp to finish me. Good work.
@Saz exactly saz its the synergy succumb has with team members in group combat that lets you even in an uncoordinated team(In larger group combat) hit someone into the toad/absolve range in three seconds. Moondancers themselves can burst a target down solo but as you said its very easy to predict and counter. Part of the reason I was saying don't try and keep or make succumb the super powerful be all an end all of moondancer combat.
EDIT: Also part of the reason why I like the idea of succumb still having a hefty mana drain but locking others out of absolve/toad/wrack kills while succumb is running. I think it'll give an interesting dynamic to succumb, keep it powerful and also remove the two balance toading we have now. EDIT
Whats the issue with succumb and healing or healing? They both can provide a hefty amount of mental afflictions and both provide great secondary kill methods.
@Aeldra It sounds weird saying your goal is to not make moondancers primary targets in group comabt. I mean if thats your goal your really going to have to nerf succumb if you dont want MD's being prime targets in group combat then. I'm not sure if thats a great stance to take to be honest. Like I said getting focused because you have a great skill set is a good problem to have it means your class is powerful.
To explain a little more on the "not more focused then they already are". The sort of change that you proclaimed, if an enemy had this, I would probably try to kill them as soon as they enter simply because they can drop us -fast-, even faster as the current succumb.
I don't want to have that kind of ability either in MD nor do I want to put people on the 'other side' through an ability like that.
Well the current succumb in group combat is in the first few seconds, my idea would change it to eight. It may not sound like much but its a big difference, Enough time to recover from a stun and tumble out.
I think I didn't express correctly what I meant. I don't want this to turn into something like "Need to drop them in 5 seconds otherwise we're screwed.". I sure want my class to be useful and powerful and of course I have no problem with being a high priority or even the prime target. Basically, I don't want to get to where monks are now. It's a bad place to be. I don't mind being where a melder currently is in terms of focus. If you think my opinion is weird, that's your right, of course.
Aside of that, it'll remove any kind of synergy for md's between each other. Currently md's can coordinate, the one sucumbing the other toading, or distributing the afflictions to give out. For example, two astrologers can, with the introduction of bluemoon, still hope to get a succumb kill by working together. I like that kind of synergy and in the end, it comes down to preference. If there'd be some other MD telling me that they like your solution, that would be another story, but I personally don't particularly like it. (Though some of this, granted, will be diminished / removed by 1583 as well ).
Though, upon further thought, I'll say that it would maybe work, even though am pretty sure it would make people complain more then the current succumb.
Also note that wobou has updated 1583 to reflect solutions to at least makshift-ly solve the succumb complaints.
Kether/Violet the rubies @Rolsand 7 rubies is basically you set up for an fairly likely to work instant kill combo, unless you can time a hinder on every single aeonfield but if you are doing that your not going to be building any wounds anyway. Use love potion if your not using it already though. It'll force them to reject to keep aeonfield ticking on you and it'll act as a bit of hinder for you at least.
The counter for rubies/shatter plex is kind of a pain for warriors as it gives them time to heal up any wounds you've done but at least if you just kether off the rubies then they wont kill you in that way. Fighting institute is a bit of an uphill battle for warriors in solo fights. There's always the class that you have an easy time and a hard time against and institute have a lot of tools and tactics to build to a kill while hindering/dodging or avoiding warrior wound build up.
@Yarith Was there a reason you were focusing me in that fight? I mean Sluelugh's hindering alone was pretty good. That combined with the other stuff locked down my offense a lot. I only managed to get three attacks in through the limb breaks and paralysis where as you let Tarken get off about seven or eight hits on you building up mo etc. Ah well live and learn.
Comments
Get one in then.
Monks on the other hand, are a game-wide class and concern. Which is argued that two envoys are trying to slow down the balance-process or take it off the table. (At least that's what I've been reading in the last few pages). Another point that doesn't apply to Succumb reports. In my opinion, comparing the situation with monks and succumb is pretty much apples to oranges anyways.
-Kilian
How about this for making it fun, powerful and interesting but not super crazy in groups because the issue that it seems to be having is to be good solo its going to be insane for groups and adjusting the numbers wont really fix that underlying problem.
Buff the mana drain on it(do make it a base+% though to make it more sensible as opposed to a fixed number for the calculations), make it so only afflictions from the moon dancer cause the increased mana drain. Also this makes it more viable for one on one.
And also make the target of succumb immune to mana kills wrack/toad/absolve from anyone other than the caster of succumb while succumb is present on the target and for a few seconds after succumb finishes.
One on one it'd mean the moon dancers target has eight seconds for to run or hinder or otherwise prevent the incoming toad. The MD then has 8 seconds to pin and drain the target before they get power back. All fair enough as its got counter play and such.
In groups it'll mean very much so that a Moondancer can easily drain a targets mana to toad level within the first tick or so with other peoples mana drains helping but it'll prevent another mana killer pretty much instantly taking over the kill and people wont get killed in seconds like they do now.
It'll give some good counter play in that the group will know the the md has cast succumb and will have eight seconds to save the target or kill or hinder the moondancer. It'll turn succumb into a sort of mobile instant kill. Cast it and then if the moon dancer does their job right the target gets toaded in eight seconds but it can be countered by shifting out of it or defending right.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
What. I literally said I would treat every report the same, the exact same as I would treat Anelissa's report, whether she made one with consensus or no consensus.
What the fuck are you smoking?
Seriously?
I'm risking more warn levels with my cursing, but seriously. Do you even fucking read?
Under no circumstance did I ever say to Anelissa, explicitly or implicitly, that she has to wait for me to give my holy O.K. before she can write her report. I was working under no such impression, and all of my posts have been to refute that characterisation of the same thing being done in Something Monkish - because it is not, to my knowledge. The clan was made to facilitate discussion and communication. I say this repeatedly, and have said it repeatedly. Explicitly. Literally.
I listed out the obvious advantages to cooperation - the flipside to the "slowness" and inefficiency that Celina brought up. Which is, of course, valid. But I reject, and still do reject, the repeated and, at this point, really, the idiotic idea that this is a deliberate attempt by envoys to block changes.
There literally is no way for me to stop Anelissa from hitting the enter button on making a report. I can comment my concerns and objections, if I have any, and I fully intend to do so for any report, not just reports about monks, that I have concerns or objections to. And that includes reports Anelissa makes, and that includes her reports EVEN IF SHE GOT MY OKAY BEFOREHAND. If a concern that I had previously missed crops up, I will still comment it onto the report. If that concern is from a third party reading the report and sending a tell or message my way, and I find it has validity, I'll put it out for discussion on the comments. If that concern is from a late night shower and sudden idea, I'll also put it out for discussion.
When Anelissa approaches me beforehand, she can lay out her position to me, and I can mine to her before she writes her report. That can possibly allow her to change my mind - and vice versa. It's, like Celina says, an extra step that would have taken place anyway - but if it succeeds, it's a step that could pre-empt any concerns I have that she can explain away. And if as a result of that, I have no concerns to raise, all the better. The cleaner, the stronger her report will actually be. If a consensus is not reached, she can still put out her report, and I will still comment my concerns, and the merits of both will be recorded for whoever makes the final decision.
As a note, almost all of my reports were made without getting "consensus" from Something Monkish. I will be surprised if all of Wobou's reports were made with the same kind of "consensus", because I surely do not remember giving my aparently haloed agreement to some of the reports he have made. The same applies to any number of other reports made by monks. I say this again, for one. Last. Time. The clan is for communication.
Failed timequake because I forgot aeon has a set time before it expires. Should've done much sooner.
Don't attempt soulless / chasm if you're ruby stacked! Was fun, Enadonella.
Loving Researcher so far even though I don't have a Tert. Thanks to @Yarith and @Shedrin for getting me this far! I shall get better at executing strats soooooon.
Discord: Rey#1460
It's going to be kinda impossible to balance it in its current form without leaving it as insane for one group and useless for another. If we get creative with it though we can make it good and balanced for both solo small and large groups.
25% mana was too high. Aeromancers will be getting miasma everywhere.
LUL.
There's a huge difference between speculation and reality.
EDIT:
If you have a serious suggestion, the best thing you can do is take it to the envoy of the skillset and ask for them to consider it.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/MWENWDCM
Discord: Rey#1460
The problem on 1vs1 is certainly not the mana drain, even with current succumb. You will not improve the situation 1vs1 by increasing it, as the target can just walk out as it always can before the md regenerates power ( you need 8p for toad, succumb costs 3p ). The problem is that Moondancers traditional / old kill method was sleeplock + old succumb, which their whole 'set' ( I barely want to call it that ), is geared towards and we're still transitioning away from that to actually be able to support this new succumb ( even though succumb needs to settle for that first ).
Even if you block out toad/absolve from others, you'll pretty much not stop people complaining about it, because they get to be killed so "easily" ( in their eyes ). Aside of that, you'll push moondancers in priority a lot higher then any present melders, which am not sure I like much.
Given that, I'm not saying your idea wouldn't work, I'm mostly saying am not sure it's a good idea to make MD an even higher priority target, group combat is already quite fast as it is.
edit: I wished that every ability that's complained about would get this much focus and agreement to work on :-(
Running wouldnt stop the toad happening either its not a room based skill you can simply chase and follow to work on it. An eight second window in one on one is pretty similar to most timed instant kills but is some what superior in that you can be mobile and chase while working to it.
If your problem is that your getting targeted because your instant kill is so good then thats a good problem for a class to have. People like monks and moondancers get targeted early due to their overpowered skills right now.
If your only real complaint is with succumb being too easy to run from one on one then what are you planning to do with it to? It sort of seems to be though that you'd be better off adjusting succumb and then looking at md hindrance and anti running skills separately instead of trying to make succumb the single answer to all your problems. I cant really see a way to make succumb an anti-running instant kill without making it pretty insane, more so than it already is.
EDIT: People do tend to get interested in trying to fix things that are having a large unbalancing effect on combat.
MDs have 0 viable hinder. Wane will never be worth it, all they have is simple webbing enchantments and vines.
And I don't know @Veyils, shielding up and moving away from the room is pretty solid for most timed instas not just for succumb (Astro meteors, Dsong, Judge, DeathTarot). And the methods to get away from a toad are much simpler in comparison to other advices such as "ignore mucous so your equilibrium isn't destroyed by an Illuminati" advice, that's just an example not a shade btw. It's a great advice in core.
Alternatively, you can use pacifism or just hard-hindering on the MD that's succumbing you for a different approach. You're only taking a Hexes+MD combination in mind and Hexes.. Have not been considered as a problem till Succumb has changed. I'd also like you to ponder how Succumb works with Healing/Astro for an example. Then you'll see it's not really the succumb itself that's broken it's the synergy that it attains via multiple mental affs that seems problematic.
I'm not saying the MD aren't getting you fast in the kill zone. They do, but probably because I've sparred a lot with the MDs, I feel their burst is most predictable and easy to handle for myself, perhaps you'll feel the same way over time.
-Kilian
Sorry, are you knowing a different MD skillset then I do ? What kind of hinders are you talking about ? nature vine? the 8 second eq for 1.5 second aeon waning? the 0.5 second balance loss thanks to pigwidgeon every 10 seconds? the unpredictable and 2 power costing moondance shafts ( which isn't a hinder, it just keeps you in the room, can still fly out or just spam the exit ). I would really love where this perception comes from. MD had powerful hindering, back when sleeplocks were a thing, but sleeplock is no longer a thing.... so, huh?
actually the escape works pretty well, 8 seconds isn't that much. move two rooms away and by the time we get back to you you've cured all afflictions you had -and- cured the mana back up, so even if you managed to redraw the afflictions the 3p is wasted and we can't toad you. Aside of that, a simple shield or even some well placed hinder will stop succumb in it's tracks in a 1vs1 scenario, as demonstrated, again, by yourself several times.
I also never said am planning / or going to use succumb to make the answer to hindering, I merely pointed out a rather big flaw in md's skillset a problem with it. Succumb itself is a manadraining ability and will not do more then that.
My "only real complaint" to your solution is that I don't think I want MD's to be even more focused in combat then they already are and that it won't make people more accepting of the skillset, because they still die very fast if it goes through.
if your edit statement were true... we would have a much nicer life. Reality is a little different, but that goes over the scope of this discussion.
edit: succumb is entirely geared towards hexen. No astrologer nor healer can ever hope to make real gain on it, aside of allies providing all affliction pressure. Healers can't generate the afflictions needed on their own and astrologers are very random, while there may be a nieche use with it, I don't think anyone really wants to use that and rather work towards their tertiary skills kill method.
I don't want to have that kind of ability either in MD nor do I want to put people on the 'other side' through an ability like that.
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/RgGb-FE- / Rolsand and Reylari vs the world--(quite an unlikely combination!)--after Aeldra gets monk'd. I also need to fix my gem (re)targeting.
Rolsand tells you, "(( it was mostly you."
Was fun. That was some crazy affstack on Veyils at the start.
Discord: Rey#1460
@Reylari Was a fun fight. The healing aura built up pretty quickly on me with you hindering the curing with aeon. I messed up a little with not having traps set up in the side rooms. If I'd have prepared I'd not have got hit with that 10k cauterize hit, would have been able to tumble away and hopefully cure up. I've got my healing fixed to cure aurawarp as quick as possible but healing is a bit of a pain to fight against even with perfect curing its a timed death sentence. So we were hoping to kill the healer quick enough before we got to that point but you and Rolsand did some pretty good hindering to our team and kept your healer alive long enough for the aurawarp to finish me. Good work.
@Saz exactly saz its the synergy succumb has with team members in group combat that lets you even in an uncoordinated team(In larger group combat) hit someone into the toad/absolve range in three seconds. Moondancers themselves can burst a target down solo but as you said its very easy to predict and counter. Part of the reason I was saying don't try and keep or make succumb the super powerful be all an end all of moondancer combat.
EDIT: Also part of the reason why I like the idea of succumb still having a hefty mana drain but locking others out of absolve/toad/wrack kills while succumb is running. I think it'll give an interesting dynamic to succumb, keep it powerful and also remove the two balance toading we have now. EDIT
Whats the issue with succumb and healing or healing? They both can provide a hefty amount of mental afflictions and both provide great secondary kill methods.
@Aeldra It sounds weird saying your goal is to not make moondancers primary targets in group comabt. I mean if thats your goal your really going to have to nerf succumb if you dont want MD's being prime targets in group combat then. I'm not sure if thats a great stance to take to be honest. Like I said getting focused because you have a great skill set is a good problem to have it means your class is powerful.
Aside of that, it'll remove any kind of synergy for md's between each other. Currently md's can coordinate, the one sucumbing the other toading, or distributing the afflictions to give out. For example, two astrologers can, with the introduction of bluemoon, still hope to get a succumb kill by working together. I like that kind of synergy and in the end, it comes down to preference. If there'd be some other MD telling me that they like your solution, that would be another story, but I personally don't particularly like it. (Though some of this, granted, will be diminished / removed by 1583 as well ).
Though, upon further thought, I'll say that it would maybe work, even though am pretty sure it would make people complain more then the current succumb.
Also note that wobou has updated 1583 to reflect solutions to at least makshift-ly solve the succumb complaints.
Tbh I do a lot of things wrong and I'm really just looking for advice and criticism.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
The counter for rubies/shatter plex is kind of a pain for warriors as it gives them time to heal up any wounds you've done but at least if you just kether off the rubies then they wont kill you in that way. Fighting institute is a bit of an uphill battle for warriors in solo fights. There's always the class that you have an easy time and a hard time against and institute have a lot of tools and tactics to build to a kill while hindering/dodging or avoiding warrior wound build up.
@Yarith Was there a reason you were focusing me in that fight? I mean Sluelugh's hindering alone was pretty good. That combined with the other stuff locked down my offense a lot. I only managed to get three attacks in through the limb breaks and paralysis where as you let Tarken get off about seven or eight hits on you building up mo etc. Ah well live and learn.