Eh mistaken name, I said it was just rough numbers anyway so change the name mist to meld tick and its about 55%ish damage from actives still. I was rounding down the actives as well.
If you're completely disregarding the some 30% passive mana drain and 15% passive ego drain then yes. 55% damage is active. Let's disregard all the passive pressure on the other vitals.
EDIT: And the passive bleeding and damage therefrom.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
Quick question just looking at the log was there a reason your not using the healing scroll? I couldnt see it from a quick ctrl-f for reading or balance.
Like
you said its hard to read from the log exactly without timestamps but you had enough
time to try and eat two sparkles, one failed with stupidity and
wasn't attempted again but understandable with normal group lag. You
may have had the time to get in two scroll reads as well.
MM
has a try double eating setting as well which may help you avoid the
failed sparkle in future. I mean you'd probably have still died but
well an extra 900ish health from each scroll and sparkle hit. That'd
be another round of attacks for you to tank before death.
Even if he had eaten the sparkle, and read scroll, the active bleeding proc from bleeding, or clotting thereoff, would have pushed him into the same threshold for either passive damage kill from the firefugue in the 2s upcoming or from the active toad from Indoril's next balance.
Should you live in those situations? No. Should there really be that much stackable passive damage? idk.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
Oh ya he'd have most likey died but well little improvements here and a few bits of extra health could sometimes give you the little breathing space to you need to finish the tumble/give an ally the chance to salt/trueheal you or something.
Like people should be using music boxes more from that log I see as well.
You don't need to snark me. This wasn't about you or your team (but fix your toad trigger to not waste 8p on someone with 48 health).
In all honesty, this is a case of "of course you died, you had a gigantic enemy group on you". I still think it's totally unfun. I don't know. I have argued for the "if you have a ton of people on you, you should die!" a lot, but I died almost purely to passive effects.
Lol, that wasn't snark. It was a legitimate question, because I wasn't 100% sure what you were referring to. Thanks for the tip, though, feedback is always great.
Tonight amidst the mountaintops And endless starless night Singing how the wind was lost Before an earthly flight
Eh, passive effects are strong. That's why they're coveted. I'm not sure if Harbingers know, but everytime I see one of them, I feel like kidnapping them so that they'll never run away again.
In all seriousness, that's part of the reason why melds are so important. Although the AOE aspect is also a huge reason, the fact that meld effects are passive is one reason why having a melder immediately gives you an advantage. That's one set of damage you don't have to invest active balance/eq into creating, and one set of damage your opponent cannot bring to bear without bringing in another person to actually do an active attack, just to equalize.
The problem, though, isn't with passives. It's with the overwhelming numbers. I mean, that thread Veyils linked to is really the crux of the matter. Diminishing returns on large teams (Disclaimer: I'm personally not sure we want to go that route) are the only way to deal with this, because pretty much every class has some sort of passive damage/affliction effect (partially dependent on their tertiary). Monks are the closest to not having any (when I say passive, I mean, really, no action being done, and opponent still taking some kind of damage/affliction). Put enough people together, and the sheer amount of passives will simply kill the person they are targeted on.
Even if your team has just as many people, it just means that on both sides, whoever gets targeted by the passives on the other side will just fall off and die, until not enough people remain for each side to passively kill each other, then that's where active attacks come in, until one side has lost enough people that they die faster than they can kill. And then the only deaths that happen will be to the losing side until the winning team stands. The passives will continue to contribute to whoever is being actively targeted, of course.
That said, we're not really at that level of population yet, anyway. In a decently sized fight, anyone will die fairly quickly if focused, but rarely do you really get a competent fighter dying to literally just passives. Currently, when teams clash, it's usually a fight of whose target calling is superior enough to knock out a critical mass of opponents with active attacks before they can do the same. Depending on how many people are involved, the speed of that can be faster than you can even survive one round, or take several rounds. Whoever is targeted is usually pinned down and just doing everything he can to delay the inevitable, hoping that he'd be the one guy who survives just long enough for his team to take out enough of the opponents that the pressure eases to the point where he survives.
Sometimes, it's a case of judging how well you can time your tumble so that you get out of the room actually alive, but having soaked up as much attention and damage as you can - and then getting back into the room asap to either contribute to your team's shot-calling, or to become another meatshield (latter being dependent on how high in the priority you are). If the target ends up dying before his tumble finishes (or getting chased down and killed after he gets out of the room) that's usually a longer time period before he can get back into the fight - likely the fight will be over before he does.
Also, at the end of the day, that meta won't change. Even if we put in diminishing returns, it's still a case of how long the person being targeted by 3 people can survive, before his teammates disable or kill one of the 3 attacking him to the point where he can survive. It'll just be a lot of these "skirmishes" happening simultaneously (for maximum efficiency), and the team having more focused and coordinated small groups winning out over teams with just one or two capable leaders, and too many people to effectively split while in the chaos of a fight. At the end of the day, whoever is being focused on, will still have to try and survive while being pinned down and beat upon. The scale will be different, is all.
Will that be more fun? I'm not entirely sure, but maybe. It would require some changes to tankiness, though. At the moment, the difference in tankiness between some classes don't make much of a difference, simply because the sheer number of people that are in fights usually render those differences negligible. But when you start limiting combat to a certain number, some classes will start to stand out, head-and-shoulders above the rest for certain aspects of tankiness.
I didn't read the whole novel, but I agree with the first few paragraphs @Lerad.
Right now Lusternia is most balanced around 3v3 or 4v4 sized conflict. If you get any bigger than that you just drop like a fly. There's really no way using our current game mechanics to balance around 3v3 so that people can kill each other, but not murder one another really fast 6v6.
I also posted a year or two ago about trying to implement something similar to Lithmeria, where if people are getting attacked by more than 3 then you get a natural dodge that scales up depending on numbers. It definitely won't get implemented in the near future though, if ever. For now your best bet is to keep up timeslip and such prevent defenses, and get really good at recognizing when you're the primary target and GTFO (in large group combat). Every time they use a round or two of balances on you and you escape & heal is a win for your group.
I know the whirlwind agents failed, but I also see you're casting everything on hitting the enter key. Do you have access to stratagems, or have some gui I can't see that shows eq?
A callout/echo when multiple whirlwind effects fail would also be useful, but you acknowledged that yourself. Honestly, being discussed first sucks, and it struggles to 100% of my psychic burnout.
"Wyrdenwood can attack for good damage, entangle, and have 2 runes hit a person in one balance. Or is it just 1 rune? Thankfully Tyamit is trying out Dreamweaving (not)."
I'm runes currently, but was saving power for room effects. You can hit with two runes for 1p though.
Did read that there were some Dreamweaving changes and I'm not sure how out of date the wiki is... could be worth a go.
I don't care what happened, I'm glad we had bards and night users for that fight. you.
More constructively, I think everyone acknowledges the issues with large group fights. Any solution to that problem (scaling dodge, less damage) probably won't be implemented in any appreciable time. I'm not entirely convinced it'll help either. Then you're just gonna shift things toward the super OP people running train on their victims instead of allowing a big group to focus them down.
Beyond that (arguing about damage, etc etc), I think the situation could have been played better on both ends. For example, if any of you guys were scourges, you could have gone in from that end. Maybe you guys could have called out that there were icewalls, or maybe considering that you guys already wiped beforehand, you'd recognize there were Night users, and given that there were Night users, bonds had a good chance to be up (thereby negating the whirlwind plan). From our end, we probably needed to coordinate a bit more hindering and focused on specific kills more (48hp toad). I notice that the victor in big group fights like that (barring overwhelming numbers) tends to boil down to whoever can focus down their opponent faster, like Lerad said.
Just chiming in after cooling off a bit -- you did catch me there, I haven't been using Healing scroll because I'm The Best. And as to Lerad's comment, I did kinda skim, but I actually feel like melders are totally falling behind other classes despite their importance, and I'll explain why in another thread after classes. Thanks, guys, for your feedback.
It seems at the larger group levels the more important things are positioning and target calling from the leader and quick responses from everyone else. Ability usage isn't as important as being able to switch targets and attack quickly with what ever you've got.
I mean there were more people in both groups standing there not attacking.
TL;DR: 7 people's focused passives across a variety of classes will hurt you.
As I told you over discord, I thought you survived reasonable well considering the number of people hitting you. The reality is group combat is how we allow non top tier artied to hell PKers to participate, and if you implement any sort of scaling system, you shift focus from the heavy hitters who can survive an inordinate amount of time vs 3 people to just clearing out the lowbies quicker than they can blink to gain the numbers advantage.
The sekret to being a top tier group fighter is running, btw. The top targets know they are top targets and have their hand on the GTFO button.
Known Aliases: Celina/Cyndarin/Fire Jesus/The Night/That Bitch who griefed us
It's part of why bards - and particularly tarot bards are so tremendously important for groups. Being able to lock the focus target out of easily tumbling for a while and empress them back into the room before they get back balance from tumbling is utterly critical.
Anyone have any insight here? As far as I can tell (and everyone I've shown this to) I had 0 afflictions before that last othala. Not sure if I'm misunderstanding how dproph works or if I cured something incorrectly. Sorry for the lack of timestamps, its on the list. Appreciate any revelations!
I think Saz's deathprophesy rolled manna quite a few times in a row? Othala might've also procc'd one of the requisite afflictions -- unsure if that is counted in for the final check though.
You actually got really unlucky there. You got hit by four of the prep affs: disloyalty, luminosity, clumsiness, disloyalty. At that point Saz sees the fifth aff needed: another disloyalty. The last combo finishes the preparation by hitting disloyalty, and lands the othala in the same combo.
If the triple had occured earlier in the setup, you could theoretically have been forewarned and ran away. As is, you just got really unlucky. It's pretty dumb.
I'd recommend treating dproph like an actual instakill and running it out just as you would from chasm/judge/etc. It's lame but it's the only way to guarantee survival.
What's the timer on it? (i.e. how long do you have to leave for to have it expire?)
He has one minute from initiating it, to fling Othala.
^(\w+) glares at you, gathering a handful of runes and crushing them, ominously staining the broken runes with \w+ own blood. A fell wind sends shivers across your skin as (\w+) cackles a foretelling of your imminent demise.$
Context: Thought the enemy group was wiped, decided to tumble past Yarith who was blocking, into an enemy group. Wow, I'm great at this game. Posted because @Shedrin wants to see how good farhealing is, and to showcase @Enyalida 's heroic save. I couldn't ask for a better team to carry me. Thank you guys so much for the amazing domoth!
Comments
Let's disregard all the passive pressure on the other vitals.
EDIT: And the passive bleeding and damage therefrom.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Like you said its hard to read from the log exactly without timestamps but you had enough time to try and eat two sparkles, one failed with stupidity and wasn't attempted again but understandable with normal group lag. You may have had the time to get in two scroll reads as well.
MM has a try double eating setting as well which may help you avoid the failed sparkle in future. I mean you'd probably have still died but well an extra 900ish health from each scroll and sparkle hit. That'd be another round of attacks for you to tank before death.
mmconfig doubledo
Should you live in those situations? No.
Should there really be that much stackable passive damage? idk.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Like people should be using music boxes more from that log I see as well.
Tonight amidst the mountaintops
And endless starless night
Singing how the wind was lost
Before an earthly flight
In all seriousness, that's part of the reason why melds are so important. Although the AOE aspect is also a huge reason, the fact that meld effects are passive is one reason why having a melder immediately gives you an advantage. That's one set of damage you don't have to invest active balance/eq into creating, and one set of damage your opponent cannot bring to bear without bringing in another person to actually do an active attack, just to equalize.
The problem, though, isn't with passives. It's with the overwhelming numbers. I mean, that thread Veyils linked to is really the crux of the matter. Diminishing returns on large teams (Disclaimer: I'm personally not sure we want to go that route) are the only way to deal with this, because pretty much every class has some sort of passive damage/affliction effect (partially dependent on their tertiary). Monks are the closest to not having any (when I say passive, I mean, really, no action being done, and opponent still taking some kind of damage/affliction). Put enough people together, and the sheer amount of passives will simply kill the person they are targeted on.
Even if your team has just as many people, it just means that on both sides, whoever gets targeted by the passives on the other side will just fall off and die, until not enough people remain for each side to passively kill each other, then that's where active attacks come in, until one side has lost enough people that they die faster than they can kill. And then the only deaths that happen will be to the losing side until the winning team stands. The passives will continue to contribute to whoever is being actively targeted, of course.
That said, we're not really at that level of population yet, anyway. In a decently sized fight, anyone will die fairly quickly if focused, but rarely do you really get a competent fighter dying to literally just passives. Currently, when teams clash, it's usually a fight of whose target calling is superior enough to knock out a critical mass of opponents with active attacks before they can do the same. Depending on how many people are involved, the speed of that can be faster than you can even survive one round, or take several rounds. Whoever is targeted is usually pinned down and just doing everything he can to delay the inevitable, hoping that he'd be the one guy who survives just long enough for his team to take out enough of the opponents that the pressure eases to the point where he survives.
Sometimes, it's a case of judging how well you can time your tumble so that you get out of the room actually alive, but having soaked up as much attention and damage as you can - and then getting back into the room asap to either contribute to your team's shot-calling, or to become another meatshield (latter being dependent on how high in the priority you are). If the target ends up dying before his tumble finishes (or getting chased down and killed after he gets out of the room) that's usually a longer time period before he can get back into the fight - likely the fight will be over before he does.
Also, at the end of the day, that meta won't change. Even if we put in diminishing returns, it's still a case of how long the person being targeted by 3 people can survive, before his teammates disable or kill one of the 3 attacking him to the point where he can survive. It'll just be a lot of these "skirmishes" happening simultaneously (for maximum efficiency), and the team having more focused and coordinated small groups winning out over teams with just one or two capable leaders, and too many people to effectively split while in the chaos of a fight. At the end of the day, whoever is being focused on, will still have to try and survive while being pinned down and beat upon. The scale will be different, is all.
Will that be more fun? I'm not entirely sure, but maybe. It would require some changes to tankiness, though. At the moment, the difference in tankiness between some classes don't make much of a difference, simply because the sheer number of people that are in fights usually render those differences negligible. But when you start limiting combat to a certain number, some classes will start to stand out, head-and-shoulders above the rest for certain aspects of tankiness.
Right now Lusternia is most balanced around 3v3 or 4v4 sized conflict. If you get any bigger than that you just drop like a fly. There's really no way using our current game mechanics to balance around 3v3 so that people can kill each other, but not murder one another really fast 6v6.
I also posted a year or two ago about trying to implement something similar to Lithmeria, where if people are getting attacked by more than 3 then you get a natural dodge that scales up depending on numbers. It definitely won't get implemented in the near future though, if ever. For now your best bet is to keep up timeslip and such prevent defenses, and get really good at recognizing when you're the primary target and GTFO (in large group combat). Every time they use a round or two of balances on you and you escape & heal is a win for your group.
A callout/echo when multiple whirlwind effects fail would also be useful, but you acknowledged that yourself. Honestly, being discussed first sucks, and it struggles to 100% of my psychic burnout.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
I'm runes currently, but was saving power for room effects. You can hit with two runes for 1p though.
Did read that there were some Dreamweaving changes and I'm not sure how out of date the wiki is... could be worth a go.
More constructively, I think everyone acknowledges the issues with large group fights. Any solution to that problem (scaling dodge, less damage) probably won't be implemented in any appreciable time. I'm not entirely convinced it'll help either. Then you're just gonna shift things toward the super OP people running train on their victims instead of allowing a big group to focus them down.
Beyond that (arguing about damage, etc etc), I think the situation could have been played better on both ends. For example, if any of you guys were scourges, you could have gone in from that end. Maybe you guys could have called out that there were icewalls, or maybe considering that you guys already wiped beforehand, you'd recognize there were Night users, and given that there were Night users, bonds had a good chance to be up (thereby negating the whirlwind plan). From our end, we probably needed to coordinate a bit more hindering and focused on specific kills more (48hp toad). I notice that the victor in big group fights like that (barring overwhelming numbers) tends to boil down to whoever can focus down their opponent faster, like Lerad said.
I mean there were more people in both groups standing there not attacking.
As I told you over discord, I thought you survived reasonable well considering the number of people hitting you. The reality is group combat is how we allow non top tier artied to hell PKers to participate, and if you implement any sort of scaling system, you shift focus from the heavy hitters who can survive an inordinate amount of time vs 3 people to just clearing out the lowbies quicker than they can blink to gain the numbers advantage.
The sekret to being a top tier group fighter is running, btw. The top targets know they are top targets and have their hand on the GTFO button.
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/13mZrCW2
Anyone have any insight here? As far as I can tell (and everyone I've shown this to) I had 0 afflictions before that last othala. Not sure if I'm misunderstanding how dproph works or if I cured something incorrectly. Sorry for the lack of timestamps, its on the list. Appreciate any revelations!
If the triple had occured earlier in the setup, you could theoretically have been forewarned and ran away. As is, you just got really unlucky. It's pretty dumb.
Ah, that makes much more sense now. Thanks!
What's the timer on it? (i.e. how long do you have to leave for to have it expire?)
^(\w+) glares at you, gathering a handful of runes and crushing them, ominously staining the broken runes with \w+ own blood. A fell wind sends shivers across your skin as (\w+) cackles a foretelling of your imminent demise.$
Is the initiation line, in case you lost it.
Discord: Rey#1460
Age of Paralysis
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/gq8POqQc
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Context: Thought the enemy group was wiped, decided to tumble past Yarith who was blocking, into an enemy group. Wow, I'm great at this game. Posted because @Shedrin wants to see how good farhealing is, and to showcase @Enyalida 's heroic save. I couldn't ask for a better team to carry me. Thank you guys so much for the amazing domoth!
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/bAuVnt69 Surprising outcome
I dun did it, @Shedrin. Hard fight
I was nub and forgot to activate my gems
Discord: Rey#1460
That was a close fight. I demand a rematch sometime! (I'll also see if I can post the log from my end for this one later tonight.)
+ modaurawarp
Spiked right from moderate to warped passively with no actions then one single flay brought you from warped to massive.