Barring that it's kinda hard to make any meaningful tweaks without making cauterise largely inviable. The 1 physical/1mental/1spiritual + twisted already isn't viable. 1v1 it's kinda impossible without aeon (and even then requires a LOT of rng to go your way), groups it's pointless because they're gonna be dead long before twisted aura happens.
Agree with Veyils, really. Make the other class' weak points stronger, it's already pretty damn easy to not die to warriors.
I sure do know. I also know how much longer it takes to build when RNG doesn't go your way with aeon/transfix (hence the first sentence). Versus bards/monks you're pretty heavily against the clock to build it (and if you don't get that RNG, you're gonna lose that race), same for dreamweavers/runists.
Without aeon/transfix hindering through their respective defences (this will be a good change) it means the Healer will have to focus more on defence than just brute-force offence (this will also be a good thing). Hence why I'm saying the ones struggling the most (warriors, namely) should have their methods buffed, since the things that will make Healer more bearable have already been done pending Ianir's finalisation.
Difference with bards and monks, and most guardian set ups. Is that you can often just reset their entire offence with a bit of simple hinder or movement.
You can't really do that with healing. The cure time on healing is so freakin long that you need to run away for minutes to reset it. Similar to warrriors just the warrior build up is so much slower and easier to hinder.
Healers are not on the clock against bards and monks it the total opposite way around. Bards and monks need to kill healers in a set time or die or flee from the battle ground totally. Healers/warriors can fall back and reset an enemies offense while also maintaining an offensive build up. Just healers build up is significantly faster and easier than warriors so its more of a shorter clock count down.
Wounds and Aurawarp kind of do work in a similar manner though just aurawarp is a much more stronger mechanic than wounds.
Healers can be hindered in the exact same way other classes can be. I've fought Wobou, Tarken and Anelissa enough times to know that. As I've said countless times already though, the fix to aeon/transfix will help a ton in being able to actually do something about their offence, because you're going to be hindered considerably less, and able to, in turn, hinder them more.
No class bar Bard (because of how octave works) is countered "just by running" I'm sorry, except maybe Dreamweaver. When you chase (even through flying) as well as Wobou/Tarken do, that way of surviving diminishes immensely. You also don't have to run away "for minutes" to reset it. You don't even have to reset it; much like wounds/hemorrhaging you only need to defend enough to drop it a level or two to be back in a feasible condition. Do you even read logs, or do you just write theoretical scenarios down on paper and call it a day?
This new changelog is also going to make Monk even tougher to not die against.
And what... Aurawarp is better than wounds? Wounds extends ice balance further than aurawarp does, and on -much better- afflictions. Not to mention takes considerably longer to cure out of, considering wounds can be applied to multiple areas. Let's not forget that, when the above change goes through, the healer will have to drop the majority of their offence to actually do anything to meaningfully hinder you.
--Aurawarp probably shouldn't apply to writhe/cleanse though, I only realised recently that it did. (sure you're 'curing' affs, but it's through a method that aurawarp shouldn't be applied, really)
Oh yea try practicing with it a bit. Testing it on the test server you can speed build to an instant kill in 40-50 seconds against hindering with aurawarp. Wounds at the quickest is upwards of 65-70 seconds against 0 parry and 0 hindering depending on the warrior spec.
Factor in that you can counter wounds with parry and there are more types of hindering that'll stop wound build up. Also factor in that aurawarp can be added passively while the healer is going defensive
Once you start looking at and practicing with the skills you'll see the difference.
If you need some help with the skills Ciaran was the healer who figured out the fastest wound build up set up I'd seen in game, If you need help you should ask him to give you some lessons.
And what... Aurawarp is better than wounds? Wounds extends ice balance further than aurawarp does, and on -much better- afflictions. Not to mention takes considerably longer to cure out of, considering wounds can be applied to multiple areas. Let's not forget that, when the above change goes through, the healer will have to drop the majority of their offence to actually do anything to meaningfully hinder you.
--Aurawarp probably shouldn't apply to writhe/clea
This is incorrect. Wounds do not delay wound curing.
Seriously
though when looking at healing I'd take the advice of the players who've used it most effectively like Ciaran and the envoys who
recgonise its strengths like Wobou.
Wounds don't extend ice balance. Wounds introduce an ice delay. I asked around, and it seems that you can even have simultaneous ice applications resolving on the same bodypart. In otherwords, it doesn't matter what your wounds level is, the rate at which you can apply ice is unaffected - if you can apply ice 10 times in 20s at 0 wounds, you can do the same at critical, and the amount of affs/wounds cured will be exactly the same.
The difference is that the higher the wound levels, the longer the aff will stick - this is important for affs like internalbleeding, damagedthroat, damagedskull, which ramp into themselves and provide passive curing pressure - not neccesarily on the ice cure balance. In other words, high wounds amplify ice-aff effects - but don't affect curing speed on its own.
Aurawarp has that same effect, only doubled. Not only do you cure less affs/aurawarp when your aurawarp goes higher, affs also stay on you longer, because you're off balance longer. Affs that have a building effect over time are amplified while at the same time, curing rate drops because of aurawarp.
The main advantage wounds have over aurawarp is that wounds, at high levels, force a lose-lose choice on the target: cure wounds, and get a high level aff which potentially creates cure pressure, or cure the aff, and let wounds amplify the effects of other affs more. Aurawarp doesn't have such a choice imposed on the target: just keep smoking steam. You'll cure both aff and aurawarp at the same time.
Warriors take longer to get to critical, and sometimes, require multiple critical bodyparts to kill. Aurawarp is a single, linear tug of war that becomes easier to win the more it goes toward the healer's side. On the other hand, that means wound curing rate will never change, whereas aurawarp curing rate increases once you stop the healer from attacking you (hinder). The less aurawarp he puts on, the faster you cure out of aurawarp - it accelerates. But you can stop a warrior from hitting you - yet the cure rate is stays static.
"passive aurawarp" is cured faster than it's applied. Aka not a factor.
Aurawarp can be built slightly faster than what's shown in my logs, you're slightly correct there. If you expend all of your power you can, but then you're not going to have power to cauterise unless you refresh (1hr per use skills shouldn't logically be considered; anyone who sees a healer flay that many times in quick succession is gonna leave anyway).
Fortunately I've learned to take 90% of what you say with a grain of salt, particularly when snark is included in your posts (which is most of them, when you're wrong). When you provide logs, it tends to prove the things you're claiming to be false. Your logs of "perfect curing" and "easily surviving monk" proved as much. It's convenient to make sweeping claims, without providing evidence. Seems to be the trend, even.
Wobou also agrees with me. In fact he's noted (and remedied) curing issues in his system that deal with and handle aurawarp just fine.
No worries, I'll take the advice of the experienced combatants like Ciaran and the Envoys like Wobou and Lerad. If you want to ignore that advice that's up to you. End of discussion I guess.
The main advantage wounds have over aurawarp is that wounds, at high levels, force a lose-lose choice on the target: cure wounds, and get a high level aff which potentially creates cure pressure, or cure the aff, and let wounds amplify the effects of other affs more. Aurawarp doesn't have such a choice imposed on the target: just keep smoking steam. You'll cure both aff and aurawarp at the same time.
This doesnt work though Lerad the way wounding works.
If a warrior gives a wounding affliction they are building less wounds. Like if you give damage throat as an axelord you can give that and 5 wounds or you can give 12 wounds with a normal strike.
Warriors lose wounds by giving afflictions. Giving afflictions give the enemy a bigger window of curing the wounds. Healers are different in that their build is not delayed by them giving afflictions.
Like as a warrior if I give an affliction like damage throat. Number wise lets say I do it five times. Thats 20 wounds and 5 afflictions to cure. So 10 ice application to cure off.
If I do 5 wounding strikes thats 60 wounds. So 15 ice applications to cure off.
Warriors are hindering their instant kill by doing afflictions.
Not saying that the afflictions don't have a place in warrior combat just the warrior is best served by not doing afflictions if they wish to kill people. Its better for them to focus pure wounding one on one and only do afflictions for specific purposes like hindering or counting a skill.
Healers get the best of both worlds in that they can push afflictions and build the aura warp at the same time. They don't get any less build up for pushing their affliction route Lerad.
Envoys like Wobou and Lerad. If you want to ignore that advice that's up to you. End of discussion I guess.
So the ones who agree with me. Got it. Still waiting for those logs tho.
Shedrin's way of fighting as a Warrior also go against the entirety of your posts. But I guess he's not an experienced combatant or a good Envoy
I've logs of fighting shedrin as a warrior winning against him and some losses. As a warrior myself. We used pure wounds because thats the best way to kill people. Afflictions are there just for a specifc purpose.
Go ask the one who took nearly triple the time you're saying, when I fought him while he was a Healer. On it. Bit like how Yarith needs to learn Symph from him, right?
How about you actually back up your broad claims with logs like a sensible person, instead of being snarky all the time when people disagree with you? Your paper theories don't work out the same in practice, sorry to say.
If you want logs go look at the warseal logs. You can see how a single healer can build to an instant kill at the same speed as three warriors stacking.
Can't view the second log because of Dropbox's URL changing. Not sifting through the other thread to find the log in question; please actually link it properly. #latest refers the last post that the person clicking the link saw of that thread. Not the person linking it. I noticed by the title he's not Cav though (thus, learning new things), which is what I talk about when I refer to Shedrin warrior.
Regarding war though, your argued point is... Wrong. Not only did all 3 of you get parried a shit load, you also never bothered to chase Fal when he ran to heal up. Of course it's gonna seem like it's quicker when you're both just standing there while Shedrin is getting aura warp up. If you bothered to chase, Fal would've dropped significantly quicker.
The other one with a healer, was the same deal. Neither of you got high enough for cauterise at all, your echoes are wrong. Although that one wasn't 3 warriors in that log, it was you vs Taevyn/Kelly
You guys could've switched to Shedrin, but you didn't. Please learn to analyse fights/logs properly. He also didn't build it faster at all. He didn't even get it above moderate rofl. And Malarious died to eternal sleep, not to cauterise.
edited cause there was apparently two logs. 2nd edit cause I see a potential error in my tired typing earlier: When I said 'it was impossible' I was referring to the secondary kill condition of cauterise at twisted, with the spiritual/physical/mental aff ... not the cauterise itself at dangerously unraveled.
Check the Kai/kreon/taevyn logs, the last two, the first one is kind of cut badly. The early shedrin logs are not great examples of aurawarp as it was actually deepsleep that killed mal in that one. So it wasnt really a comparison between aurawrap and healing.
One of the better examples is the kai/kreon vs mal and me fight. Its one healer vs two warriors but basically the jist of it is aurawarp builds faster than two warriors. So one warrior who is targeted has to cycle out and run away for a few mins to heal up.
It was basically three warriors got kai to heavy/heavy/light at the same speed as one healer gets to instant kill level. Albeit it there was considerable hindrance from the aqua meld and bubble.
Check the last two kai fights, the first ones badly cut and dont have anything in it really. Short story was we lost 1 person to aura warp at the same time as we killed kreon give or take a few seconds. The Shedrin ones are not great examples as first mal died to deepsleep.
The Kai fight where mal gets killed to aurawarp and then Kai dies to wounds is a good one to see. Albiet it there was good hinderance from both sides with impale and bubble and such. Its pretty much what we said.
You'll see in all of them aura warp is significantly faster than wound build up. Check ever log every healer posts up. You can see it from your own logs you post.
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/fBblJVyf This one is the one I was talking about where you didn't get into cauterise range at all. You got to massive for a bit, and then it was all cured away. There's still two more levels to go after massive before you are actually in kill range.
Can you link me, specifically, to the kai/kreon one you're talking about? (right click the time it was posted, and copy THAT link, as opposed to the url in the url bar) - Cause I'm apparently blind and can't find that specific one; I looked through both the War thread, and the 'warrior combat logs' thread... If it's in your dropbox, then link me that, cause I'm not downloading all those files to find it. Your titling of the logs is kinda weird.
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/RfDYCC3G - Plenty of critical hits LONG before he was even close to unravel range. He just didn't capitalise on them very well; if he went for mutilates more, he could've massively stalled my build up (and likely even killed me)
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/5DPVDsae - Ended up going for timequake instead of aurawarp since that was building faster (which i'll explain below), but if you just ctrl+f and look for 'critical' you can see just how fast he's reaching that level. Compare it to the Rolsand log and you'll see the building speeds.
Kreon/Kai log, pls. I wasn't being snarky, I legitimately cannot find it.
--
One thing I'll agree on is the speed at which RESEARCHER Institute builds aurawarp; I'm not sure if it's a bug or not, we've not received an answer but... If someone's afflicted with both aurawarp and timewarp, smoking will only cure half a level of each, which is problematic in the long run for getting aurawarp built since gems passively give timewarp... If it's a bug, hopefully it gets looked into. If it's not a bug, then maybe that needs to be looked into and changed. Rather than Healer specifically.
Comments
The "no aeon/transfix through their respective defences" will help a ton, when that change goes through, when it comes to a Healer's hindering ability.
Barring that it's kinda hard to make any meaningful tweaks without making cauterise largely inviable. The 1 physical/1mental/1spiritual + twisted already isn't viable. 1v1 it's kinda impossible without aeon (and even then requires a LOT of rng to go your way), groups it's pointless because they're gonna be dead long before twisted aura happens.
Agree with Veyils, really. Make the other class' weak points stronger, it's already pretty damn easy to not die to warriors.
Discord: Rey#1460
I'm not against warrior tweaks either (both to make their attrition counterable, and to make their buildup more than just a death timer)
Without aeon/transfix hindering through their respective defences (this will be a good change) it means the Healer will have to focus more on defence than just brute-force offence (this will also be a good thing). Hence why I'm saying the ones struggling the most (warriors, namely) should have their methods buffed, since the things that will make Healer more bearable have already been done pending Ianir's finalisation.
Discord: Rey#1460
You can't really do that with healing. The cure time on healing is so freakin long that you need to run away for minutes to reset it. Similar to warrriors just the warrior build up is so much slower and easier to hinder.
Healers are not on the clock against bards and monks it the total opposite way around. Bards and monks need to kill healers in a set time or die or flee from the battle ground totally. Healers/warriors can fall back and reset an enemies offense while also maintaining an offensive build up. Just healers build up is significantly faster and easier than warriors so its more of a shorter clock count down.
Wounds and Aurawarp kind of do work in a similar manner though just aurawarp is a much more stronger mechanic than wounds.
No class bar Bard (because of how octave works) is countered "just by running" I'm sorry, except maybe Dreamweaver. When you chase (even through flying) as well as Wobou/Tarken do, that way of surviving diminishes immensely. You also don't have to run away "for minutes" to reset it. You don't even have to reset it; much like wounds/hemorrhaging you only need to defend enough to drop it a level or two to be back in a feasible condition. Do you even read logs, or do you just write theoretical scenarios down on paper and call it a day?
This new changelog is also going to make Monk even tougher to not die against.
And what... Aurawarp is better than wounds? Wounds extends ice balance further than aurawarp does, and on -much better- afflictions. Not to mention takes considerably longer to cure out of, considering wounds can be applied to multiple areas. Let's not forget that, when the above change goes through, the healer will have to drop the majority of their offence to actually do anything to meaningfully hinder you.
--Aurawarp probably shouldn't apply to writhe/cleanse though, I only realised recently that it did. (sure you're 'curing' affs, but it's through a method that aurawarp shouldn't be applied, really)
Discord: Rey#1460
LUL..
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Oh yea try practicing with it a bit. Testing it on the test server you can speed build to an instant kill in 40-50 seconds against hindering with aurawarp. Wounds at the quickest is upwards of 65-70 seconds against 0 parry and 0 hindering depending on the warrior spec.
Factor in that you can counter wounds with parry and there are more types of hindering that'll stop wound build up. Also factor in that aurawarp can be added passively while the healer is going defensive
Once you start looking at and practicing with the skills you'll see the difference.
If you need some help with the skills Ciaran was the healer who figured out the fastest wound build up set up I'd seen in game, If you need help you should ask him to give you some lessons.
This is incorrect. Wounds do not delay wound curing.
Seriously though when looking at healing I'd take the advice of the players who've used it most effectively like Ciaran and the envoys who recgonise its strengths like Wobou.
The difference is that the higher the wound levels, the longer the aff will stick - this is important for affs like internalbleeding, damagedthroat, damagedskull, which ramp into themselves and provide passive curing pressure - not neccesarily on the ice cure balance. In other words, high wounds amplify ice-aff effects - but don't affect curing speed on its own.
Aurawarp has that same effect, only doubled. Not only do you cure less affs/aurawarp when your aurawarp goes higher, affs also stay on you longer, because you're off balance longer. Affs that have a building effect over time are amplified while at the same time, curing rate drops because of aurawarp.
The main advantage wounds have over aurawarp is that wounds, at high levels, force a lose-lose choice on the target: cure wounds, and get a high level aff which potentially creates cure pressure, or cure the aff, and let wounds amplify the effects of other affs more. Aurawarp doesn't have such a choice imposed on the target: just keep smoking steam. You'll cure both aff and aurawarp at the same time.
Warriors take longer to get to critical, and sometimes, require multiple critical bodyparts to kill. Aurawarp is a single, linear tug of war that becomes easier to win the more it goes toward the healer's side. On the other hand, that means wound curing rate will never change, whereas aurawarp curing rate increases once you stop the healer from attacking you (hinder). The less aurawarp he puts on, the faster you cure out of aurawarp - it accelerates. But you can stop a warrior from hitting you - yet the cure rate is stays static.
"passive aurawarp" is cured faster than it's applied. Aka not a factor.
Aurawarp can be built slightly faster than what's shown in my logs, you're slightly correct there. If you expend all of your power you can, but then you're not going to have power to cauterise unless you refresh (1hr per use skills shouldn't logically be considered; anyone who sees a healer flay that many times in quick succession is gonna leave anyway).
Fortunately I've learned to take 90% of what you say with a grain of salt, particularly when snark is included in your posts (which is most of them, when you're wrong). When you provide logs, it tends to prove the things you're claiming to be false. Your logs of "perfect curing" and "easily surviving monk" proved as much. It's convenient to make sweeping claims, without providing evidence. Seems to be the trend, even.
Wobou also agrees with me. In fact he's noted (and remedied) curing issues in his system that deal with and handle aurawarp just fine.
Discord: Rey#1460
This doesnt work though Lerad the way wounding works.
If a warrior gives a wounding affliction they are building less wounds. Like if you give damage throat as an axelord you can give that and 5 wounds or you can give 12 wounds with a normal strike.
Warriors lose wounds by giving afflictions. Giving afflictions give the enemy a bigger window of curing the wounds. Healers are different in that their build is not delayed by them giving afflictions.
If I do 5 wounding strikes thats 60 wounds. So 15 ice applications to cure off.
Warriors are hindering their instant kill by doing afflictions.
Not saying that the afflictions don't have a place in warrior combat just the warrior is best served by not doing afflictions if they wish to kill people. Its better for them to focus pure wounding one on one and only do afflictions for specific purposes like hindering or counting a skill.
Healers get the best of both worlds in that they can push afflictions and build the aura warp at the same time. They don't get any less build up for pushing their affliction route Lerad.
Shedrin's way of fighting as a Warrior also go against the entirety of your posts. But I guess he's not an experienced combatant or a good Envoy
Discord: Rey#1460
I've logs of fighting shedrin as a warrior winning against him and some losses. As a warrior myself. We used pure wounds because thats the best way to kill people. Afflictions are there just for a specifc purpose.
Ciaran said:
Seriously Reylari go and ask Ciaran for some combat advice on the best way to build aurawarp. I've not seen anyone do it faster than him.
How about you actually back up your broad claims with logs like a sensible person, instead of being snarky all the time when people disagree with you? Your paper theories don't work out the same in practice, sorry to say.
Discord: Rey#1460
Theres logs for your proof.
http://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/2704/shedrin-vs-veyils-warrior-spar#latest
http://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/2958/war-2017#latest
Discord: Rey#1460
Regarding war though, your argued point is... Wrong. Not only did all 3 of you get parried a shit load, you also never bothered to chase Fal when he ran to heal up. Of course it's gonna seem like it's quicker when you're both just standing there while Shedrin is getting aura warp up. If you bothered to chase, Fal would've dropped significantly quicker.
The other one with a healer, was the same deal. Neither of you got high enough for cauterise at all, your echoes are wrong. Although that one wasn't 3 warriors in that log, it was you vs Taevyn/Kelly
You guys could've switched to Shedrin, but you didn't. Please learn to analyse fights/logs properly. He also didn't build it faster at all. He didn't even get it above moderate rofl. And Malarious died to eternal sleep, not to cauterise.
edited cause there was apparently two logs.
2nd edit cause I see a potential error in my tired typing earlier: When I said 'it was impossible' I was referring to the secondary kill condition of cauterise at twisted, with the spiritual/physical/mental aff ... not the cauterise itself at dangerously unraveled.
Discord: Rey#1460
One of the better examples is the kai/kreon vs mal and me fight. Its one healer vs two warriors but basically the jist of it is aurawarp builds faster than two warriors. So one warrior who is targeted has to cycle out and run away for a few mins to heal up.
It was basically three warriors got kai to heavy/heavy/light at the same speed as one healer gets to instant kill level. Albeit it there was considerable hindrance from the aqua meld and bubble.
The Kai fight where mal gets killed to aurawarp and then Kai dies to wounds is a good one to see. Albiet it there was good hinderance from both sides with impale and bubble and such. Its pretty much what we said.
You'll see in all of them aura warp is significantly faster than wound build up. Check ever log every healer posts up. You can see it from your own logs you post.
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/fBblJVyf This one is the one I was talking about where you didn't get into cauterise range at all. You got to massive for a bit, and then it was all cured away. There's still two more levels to go after massive before you are actually in kill range.
Can you link me, specifically, to the kai/kreon one you're talking about? (right click the time it was posted, and copy THAT link, as opposed to the url in the url bar) - Cause I'm apparently blind and can't find that specific one; I looked through both the War thread, and the 'warrior combat logs' thread... If it's in your dropbox, then link me that, cause I'm not downloading all those files to find it. Your titling of the logs is kinda weird.
Discord: Rey#1460
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/5DPVDsae - Ended up going for timequake instead of aurawarp since that was building faster (which i'll explain below), but if you just ctrl+f and look for 'critical' you can see just how fast he's reaching that level. Compare it to the Rolsand log and you'll see the building speeds.
Kreon/Kai log, pls. I wasn't being snarky, I legitimately cannot find it.
--
One thing I'll agree on is the speed at which RESEARCHER Institute builds aurawarp; I'm not sure if it's a bug or not, we've not received an answer but... If someone's afflicted with both aurawarp and timewarp, smoking will only cure half a level of each, which is problematic in the long run for getting aurawarp built since gems passively give timewarp... If it's a bug, hopefully it gets looked into. If it's not a bug, then maybe that needs to be looked into and changed. Rather than Healer specifically.
Discord: Rey#1460