Looking Forward: Healing Skillset

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  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice Member Posts: 2,622 Transcendent
    The YellowPurple Aes Sedai are now accepting new members.
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    edited June 2016
    I think we should nix the reckless effect. Not only does it have the potential to be extremely powerful in groups that pressure multiple vitals (anytime a mana killer is present), it doesn't actually add anything to the existing proposal. Anesthesia doesn't really add to the aff building style of offense or the support effects of defensive. It's just a really powerful extra attack that no one really needs.

    Maybe make it something like a mini aegis defense the healer can give to a target. Maybe tie it in with attend (which is awesome). Your attended target will take 10% reduced damage and you will take it for them in both health and ego. Or something along those lines. 

    I actually love this proposal and the idea of an offensive/defensive toggle. Tempting me back to Shadowdancer, dammit.

  • DylaraDylara Member Posts: 1,287 Transcendent
    I think we should nix the reckless effect. Not only does it have the potential to be extremely powerful in groups that pressure multiple vitals (anytime a mana killer is present), it doesn't actually add anything to the existing proposal. Anesthesia doesn't really add to the aff building style of offense or the support effects of defensive. It's just a really powerful extra attack that no one really needs.

    Maybe make it something like a mini aegis defense the healer can give to a target. Maybe tie it in with attend (which is awesome). Your attended target will take 10% reduced damage and you will take it for them in both health and ego. Or something along those lines. 

    I actually love this proposal and the idea of an offensive/defensive toggle. Tempting me back to Shadowdancer, dammit.

    Come back to the Dark Side, Momma Night misses you. 

    On a more serious note, this is a very exciting change for Healing. I do agree that the Recklessness giving skill up there is a bit too nice and would be very strong in combat.

    Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."

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  • LuceLuce Fox Populi Member Posts: 2,425 Transcendent
    Maybe change anesthesia to mask affs/force a diag for a short time instead? You can't feel the afflictions being added, so must take a moment to learn what's going on with yourself?
  • YehnYehn Member Posts: 282 Master
    Aeldra said:

    When I took healing as a skillset, I was always wanting to play a more defensive healer in groups, because I felt that was what I wanted healing to be. Currently, it looks like that will be a possiblity and people will no longer tell me 'you are far more useful offensively', so yay for that!


    This will actually have me looking forward to pvp ^^
    beep
  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 905 Transcendent
    I like the proposal in general. It's a much more proactive skillset, has more good interesting support options, some more offensive options and some limits on how good it is for personal healing. I might actually use Healing now.

    I'll echo concerns about Anesthesia. Possible suggestion that keeps the idea: Reduce all damage, mana drain and ego drain on the target by 33% for the duration. So they have the uncurable recklessness, but also take less damage.
    Idea 2: Delay all healing and damage on the target for 15s, then deal all damage and healing. Double all healing. (Inspired by Dota).

    Let's not make Healers immune to Aurawarp. Resistance, or higher base aura level, sure, but immunities are annoying.

    Projection seems a bit weak to me considering the cost and interruptability. Suggestion: for any affliction cured, allies are immune to that affliction for 5s afterwards.

    Would prefer not to have alerts on AuraSense for aurawarp levels. Succor is plenty.

    I like the idea of the diminishing returns mechanic. If there's good messaging to the target, it gives them an opportunity to run away before they're bursted.
  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 592 Gifted
    edited June 2016
    I have removed this post for being unproductive.  I do not like this direction for healing, but I do not that healing exists. It has to have a cost to cure anything (in equilibrium) while in combat. 

    - Malarious
  • SalomeSalome Member Posts: 677 Mythical
    Hi! Newbie Envoy here.

    As a healer, I love the possibility of Anathesia, and the mechanism solution suggested by Shedrin. But what I don't really want to see lost is the possibility to tie the skillset into the flavours we already have present, the idea that it can connect to lowmagic and highmagic respectively, through chakras. This would actively connect lowmagic to healing flavour wise, but also allow for some defense against other guardians, dreamweavers, and Institute rubies. I prefer a flowing and tie of skills that can build upon one another, and have some sort of scholarly connection. With the coming of @Weiwae, I can see him making discoveries or improvements to the skill of Healing over all, but without some basis in prior knowledge of chakras I would find this difficult.

    I think the possibility of giving healers minor, (very minor) buffs against other healers as well as aura-based skills through the strengthening of chakras or chakra flares could be an interesting addition to the give and take of empathy and how it revolves around this idea of give and take.

    Idea: Auras could resemble chakras opening or closing, and it could be based off of smaller timers and alerts so that they are not radiating constants like other auras are. You could have an aura of temperature for example, but be flaring (and losing empathy at %5 or whatever, depending on a quickening rate or a slower rate which could extend the time at a high cost of empathy) the indigo chakra, the red chakra, for visibility, and a small buff to interference.

    I would prefer to get rid of the incurable recklessness and make it something like Shedrin's idea. However, let me suggest a few other things:

    Idea 1: The chance of incurable recklessness is possible at 50% of a warped aura, or halfway, much like a toadcurse. The ability to use recklessness can be much like a toad stomp, and be like 15s-20s of if it can stick or not. Warped auras in that time have a chance of 25% reversion to one level back through a skill in highmagic or lowmagic, preferably the use of indigo which is delayed depending upon how warped the aura is.

    Idea 2: Recklessness is nixed entirely and replaced AB HEALERSMERCY/ ect.  After 75% of the aura of the target has been warped, a healer can attempt to pull the soul from the target, effectively devouring their empathy and lifesource. Reabsorbing it into their empathy pool. This would be the instakill, and depending upon the essence of level of the player give more empathy or less. Success of this casting would dampen a healers abilities while the empathy moves to their corresponding chakras in a 15s-20s refresh.

    On Healer's Empathy Gain:

    Idea: Initial drafting idea, but with the idea that influencing adds 10% or less empathy to the pool of a healer.



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  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 592 Gifted
    edited August 2016
    Since it looks like this is becoming a thing, though it has been very quiet for some time I wanted to get some answers back on concerns if possible.

    1) Are we keeping the uncureable recklessness people were concerned about? There is no solo combat, so it is asking that you have 0 afflictions in a group, which isn't happening.

    2) How is cauterize supposed to work. Things say they give aurawarp, does that actually mean it is subtracting?  How does one Cure this warping?

    3) Will healing have a proper cost / timer to avoid instantly curing everything?  This was a concern that there was no way to kill healers really, as they cured any combos you tried to set up, often passively (auras). There needs to be a way to kill them, Something like requiring they not be prone and costing equilibrium to use.  Or this will have to get changed to fit into things.  Unless healing is supposed to be a super skillset I guess......

    4) New bedevil should definitely NOT be cheaper than things like whammy and doublewhammy. We learned this lesson before. People will simply spam sipping poisons into bedevil if need be. I can add afflictions to myself free, I do not need to rely on yours.
  • DemartelDemartel Member Posts: 441 Virtuoso
    I do not know where this "You cannot kill healers" comes from. I have killed healers plenty of times, including the supposedly unkillable SD Healers. It is harder, not impossible.
  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 592 Gifted
    Demartel said:
    I do not know where this "You cannot kill healers" comes from. I have killed healers plenty of times, including the supposedly unkillable SD Healers. It is harder, not impossible.
    This will depend almost exclusively on your class.  For instance, wounds can build, bleeding can build.  Good luck using many of the aeon setups or affliction combos, or old warrior setups for locks, etc.   Anything based on an affliction with a healing cure is basically impossible to use as an offense.

    5 afflictions? Cured all at once. 
  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    Unkillable is hyperbole since timed instas/meteor/groups/etc, but in the general sense, a healer should be exceedingly hard to kill in the majority of reasonable situations. 
  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 592 Gifted
    Last I knew, meteor was not a kill anymore. It has to be rescaled or something for new damage. 

    I am not an astrologer, this is just what I have heard.

    Many of those insta's and such still rely on afflictions to happen. It is exceedingly hard to kill, and we want to give them the potential for super reckless, an insta, and bring back old bedevil.  Institute master class.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    Malarious said:
    Last I knew, meteor was not a kill anymore. It has to be rescaled or something for new damage. 

    I am not an astrologer, this is just what I have heard.

    Many of those insta's and such still rely on afflictions to happen. It is exceedingly hard to kill, and we want to give them the potential for super reckless, an insta, and bring back old bedevil.  Institute master class.
    Meteor took me out from 10k health. - I think that's pretty solid as a kill.

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    It's not clear if the current mechanic of curing without needing eq/bal will be staying in the new iteration of Healing in Estarra's opening post. Maybe a limit based on empathy could be something to look into - as empathy drops, the amount of self cures you can do within a set amount of time (5s?) without incurring eq/bal loss will drop - 4 at full empathy, 3 at 75% empathy etc. Or something along those lines.

  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 592 Gifted
    Lerad said:
    It's not clear if the current mechanic of curing without needing eq/bal will be staying in the new iteration of Healing in Estarra's opening post. Maybe a limit based on empathy could be something to look into - as empathy drops, the amount of self cures you can do within a set amount of time (5s?) without incurring eq/bal loss will drop - 4 at full empathy, 3 at 75% empathy etc. Or something along those lines.
    This would give more of an attrition effect to healing. Longer the fight goes the harder it is to maintain cures.  If auras and such continue to exist it will cause problems for things like aeon guilds, but I like the direction of this.

    @Synkarin : Kay. I haven't seen anyone use meteor, I was just relaying what I had been told. Thanks for the correction, I will check why they thought it didn't work.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 1,584 Transcendent
    Meteor with full spheres on does seem like an instant kill not sure if it is decided as pure damage but it kills folks with 12000+k health in a hit.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,765 Transcendent
    It's 50 magic, 50 fire.

    image
  • ShedrinShedrin Member Posts: 905 Transcendent
    It depends pretty heavily on your resistances and the Astro's damage buffs. I've definitely killed a lot from full health, but I've also seen people resist it. On Healing: I'm interpreting the changes that each time you cure yourself, it'll become more and more costly, so that should limit the effectiveness somewhat. It is something to watch out for when it's released, though.
  • EstarraEstarra Administrator, Moderator Posts: 868 Creator
    We are (finally!) moving forward on addressing the healing skillset, but we notice that herb cures are still active (we wanted to make sure the new system was viable but I think we forgot about it). :|

    Anyway, we want to remove the old herb cures and wondering if anyone can foresee any issues.
    image
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  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    Estarra said:
    We are (finally!) moving forward on addressing the healing skillset, but we notice that herb cures are still active (we wanted to make sure the new system was viable but I think we forgot about it). :|

    Anyway, we want to remove the old herb cures and wondering if anyone can foresee any issues.
    There are still several things still on herb cures

    Succumb, Jinx

    Monks still use some herb cures I believe.

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • YarithYarith Member Posts: 997 Mythical
    edited August 2016
    Mostly will be a problem with monks but given that most monk affs are more-or-less isolated to the herb balance and you'll only get 1-2 herb balance affs per form it's not a big deal.
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  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 592 Gifted
    For ease of use, we could likely just convert healing as planned (though insight into the above would be awesome).

    I believe we can phase out some of the (now) monk afflictions. Another idea is coming down the pipeline, and I think we could start removing afflictions to facilitate easier transitions. 
  • QuenoiQuenoi Member Posts: 11 Inept
    A few comments:

    Is it intentional that both Auric and Phlegmatic cures aeon?

    Projection, does it require active auras being radiated to project?
    If healers will not be immune to aura warping will the effect vary with the strength of the healer's aura?

    I like the direction overall and agree with others praising the choice and flexibility.

    I have a concern though, about the aura mechanic with up to 5 auras and keeping the heavy ego drain.
    I find the ego drain makes stacking  auras for personal use quite limiting, and if projection does not rely on a radiated aura then aside from "gifting" auras to allies the radiation of auras feels very limited in utility ( I release that this is substantially the same as is today).

    Would it work to have the option (toggle skill) to stack auras with a reduced ego cost but also a reduced pulse timer?

    Alternatively can someone show me how/when it would be meaningful to stack 5 auras?
    I'm not seeing a viable use for it as the risk of burnout is so high - and if it can't be used - why keep it?

    .....hoping for enlightenment.....

  • CyndarinAscendsCyndarinAscends Member Posts: 1,461 Transcendent
    1) Yes!

    2) Question for the admin.

    3) The drain is not a big deal at the higher tiers of regen/demigod. 75 mana a tic, I believe, so it's pretty small once you get high vitals and solid regen. 

    4) See above. 

    5) Personal auras? Not really. You can give your allies health auras for bashing, or auric auras for group fights. I would usually run health/auric/phlegmatic on myself and auric on two allies such as the melder and the leader. 
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    Personally, I always thought that healing auras would heal people around the aura radiator, not the person that has the aura, that would make sense for the ego cost.. but also possibly be a little OP. Anyway, that was just a random aside.

  • QuenoiQuenoi Member Posts: 11 Inept
    another thought on recklessness - should there be another way to cure it than having 0 afflictions?
    I know of many people who use certain afflictions as defenses, as such it would require more commitment than just curing unwanted afflictions to remove the recklessness....
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    edited September 2016
    Well, the situations of using afflictions as a defense are always a case of weighing the pros and cons.

    (This is not referring to blindness and deafness, which are considered defenses, not afflictions, even though they show up on diag.)

    For example, using paranoia to guard against lust, or using fire to counter sleep - it's usable to a certain extent, depending on your class, but there's always a risk involved, as there are classes that take advantage of mental afflictions, for example, where using it as a defense against lust may be more trouble than it is worth, or using fire could open you up to some nasty combos (and eat up certain of your cure balances constantly putting out burns) by Pyromancers etc.

    The same theory would apply here, naturally. Is using a certain defense worth it, when you're against a healer? The answer is probably no - in which case you have to forgo the advantages of using that affliction as a defense against specific tactics when you're dealing with a healer.

    Edit: this is besides the actual balance (which is questionable) of the proposed reckless mechanic, of course. Uncurable recklessness is very possibly something we will want to approach with a very, very cautious mindset.

  • TamashiTamashi Member Posts: 250 Capable
    As someone who hands out plenty of auras with current Healing, the ego drain is fine as is. If the drain is still the same in the update, then I'm perfectly fine with this. During domoths I can easily toss up and maintain about seven auras without ever having to sip bromides. While I do have 4 ego regen this could be more than likely due to spinning beryl and having a beryl crystalweapon.

    I love the entirety of this skillset and had no idea it works in the works when I joined, so it makes me so very thrilled to see this happening. I agree the recklessness is super nuts and that it could be made differently.

    If I remember reading correctly, did aura pulses on self reduce empathy? And also as a suggestion, if the ability to CURE ME without using up equilibrium is a problem, you could make the equilibrium recovery be based on how many auras they have on themselves? 0-1 Aura would allow for CURE ME to go without the penalty while each aura beyond that is a 1 second timer? Granted I'm not a combatant or envoy so if my suggestion doesn't seem like much, you know why :).
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