OOC/IC Interaction

Tacita

Didn't want to derail the Lirangsha thread further, but I wanted to reply to Tully's post where he said:

Estarra, gotta agree with that. I'm finding it harder and harder to find people willing to talk and instead go to forum rp. With the visions for instance everybody wanted to keep them secret within their orgs but every one was posted here and on Facebook.  The only one I got IC confirmation on was my own when somebody sent it to me IG.  Thankfully, I got some folks to show me the new area and fill me in on the battles.

I don't understand why ever org is so secretive.  I could understand a single org like, say, Glomdoring, but it's like people want to both share the lore OOC and keep it private IC.  That leads to meta-gaming and "having your cake and eating it too" IMO.  I was hoping somebody would discuss them at my "not actual Thanksgiving" feasts, but alas.  Even the public news boards are shunned nowadays--the little IC war over the new area is the most active I've seen in a while.  I would think some orgs would want to share, at least in terms of being boastful if not based on true altruism--publish a translation of it in the library, get IG benefits, for instance.

I managed to read the project cloudspout work to all in game (being the lucky guy who could read Orclach) and it was enlightening, and I had fun with it.   Maybe you need to create a new language that only Weeky or Miska can read, so someone has to take it there to be translated the first time.

I understand the player enthusiasm and the want to discuss outside the game though--this is kind of why I also ask questions like "how are we changing how we play the games" and "why AFK seems more commonplace" or "why use of news has gone down over the years".  I truly wonder if the Internet is changing how we interact with media and sometimes I think we're getting afflicted with some kind of ADHD sort of complex.  

So I don't want to get into the whole theory of how changes in RL society are affecting peoples' desire to run to FB/the forums/OOC chat clans to discuss things, but I do find it important and interesting to think about it from a game-based POV.

In the middle/wake of the Xynthin event I left Glomdoring's OOC clan because, amongst other things, I didn't want to listen to people discussing it in an OOC context whilst I was also discussing it ICly with everyone. Originally I intended to go back when the event was done but once out of it, I started to notice that I wasn't 'in' on things anymore, and I wanted to explore why. As far as I can tell this is not because I've been doing less - though I have been logged on a bit less with preparing to go back to university for the first time in years - but more because when people talk about things, they do it on that clan.

A simple example - when preparing to upgrade a domoth, people don't discuss it on the commune's IC combat clan. They ask on the OOC clan if people are available.

Now I absolutely do not mean to say 'omg, I'm being left out of everything! *whine*' because that's totally not what it is. Having been in the clan for ages I am 100% certain that no one actively means to exclude people. The problem is that people are unconsciously - perhaps also habitually - discussing things not-ICly. If I start talking about a domoth or something on the combat clan, everyone will join in and talk about it there. But only a few people think to go there first.

There are definitely some things that are easier to organise on an OOC level, often where it's an IC event that wouldn't have OOC kerfuffle in its reality (e.g. trying to get a bunch of people in different timezones online at the same time - in an IC context I wouldn't have to discuss it). But I think we fall too easily into organising other things OOCly when they could be done ICly. It goes beyond that though, because when big events happen they don't get discussed as much as they would be ICly - because people are frothing about them on OOC clans.

What this means is that people miss out on a lot of the really cool IC debating that we've seen in the last couple of days on public and within orgs. It has other knock-on effects like making it easier to metagame information (even unintentionally) and not including newbies or midbies enough. But even more than that...it's just not as fun. I know not everyone plays Lusternia for mega intense RP, but I would say that the people who stick around at the very least play it to be a fantasy character to some degree. And it's sad that we're losing out on that.

This is not to say that it is wholly the fault of people in such clans, though (as I've said I don't think it's an intentional thing, so fault isn't quite the right word, but I hope you get what I mean). To find RP you do need to make an effort to go out and get it. Some of the most awesome IC discussions I've had recently have been with Skye, who I've had to actively go out and find to talk to. We need to make sure that we don't fall into the habit of expecting RP to basically walk up into our laps. As CL I had the luxury of having it bought to me and deposited in front of me, so it was a bit of a shock to find I had to go out and get it myself, but often it's more rewarding when you do - and although I'm still not brilliant at it, I have I hope been getting better at seeking out not always the same people to RP with. It's fun

As a final point, I am absolutely not saying that I think OOC clans are evil and should be destroyed. Lusternia is a game and I like playing it with my friends - in fact since I left the clan I've missed people terribly, but unfortunately got stuck on this self-righteous "I must discover and fix the problems with the lack of IC communication" kick (I think I am catching the stubborns from Xenthos). There are people that I talked to on there who I am still interacting with IC but just don't get a chance to talk to outside, which saddens me - equally there are people I don't interact with IC who I enjoyed talking to OOCly. I think cultivating OOC friendship groups within the playerbase, especially cross-org ones, is absolutely to be encouraged so that we all get along and enjoy playing together. I would just like to see what should be a positive thing not have a negative flipside.

So, yeah. Something to think about and maybe to work out if we can fix at all. Or at the very least, an interesting thought.

Xenthos

The stubborns are contagious? 

Tacita

Yes. Also, I have no idea why the font went skewiff in Tully's quote, or indeed in the rest of my post.

Qistrel

One of the reasons I quit playing WoW and came back to Lusternia was that I missed all of the IC stuff. I just wasn't anyone in WoW, whereas here I get to be someone with some importance attached.

And then people started to invite me to join their cool OOC clans, and I found myself turning them down because, well, I wanted to do more RPing, damnit. So you're not the only one stubbornly refusing to join OOC clans. (Though, I don't have a problem with their existence either. I'm still in the Starleaf OOC clan, but it's pretty quiet these days).

Turnus

I found it just fine to be in combat and involved in everything that was going on ICly and I'm not in any OOC clans, - unless you count a guild clan that's there for trigger/mechanic help, but that isn't used for just bullshitting or the like. I can also count on one hand the number of Lusternians that can get in touch with me outside of the game/forums.

I've very briefly been some of those OOC clans, and they really spoiled the fun of playing Lusternia to me. But I realize I'm more the exception than the rule on that.

Moi

The only OOC clan I'm in is my anonymous system support clan, which I mostly use for coding questions. Being in OOC clans really detracts from the game, at least for me.

Lavinya

I'm still in an ooc clan or two, but they are both mostly quiet. I found the same thing as you, Tacita. I left my favourite ooc chat clan (for a different reason) and suddenly it became obvious why there is not as much RP to be found anymore - most people who I would RP with, we'd already been chatting, so there was no need to hunt out the social interaction I'd normally be hanging out for in the game.

Now I prefer to keep my idle chatter outside the game in skype or whatever (for the most part) and have found it's made me stop being so lazy when it comes to roleplay. I much prefer it this way.

It also means there is less chance for people to get confused between IC and OOC things. Some people find it hard to note a difference between one and the other, so it's easier for me if I just keep everything in character (save the two ooc clans I am in where I know the people in them don't confuse it for roleplay).

Lerad

OOC Clans are basically the same as the forums, in my opinion. Or at least, I use them in the same manner. I sound off my OOC opinions of events, mechanics. I listen to others do the same, and adjust my arguments to take into consideration information and data shared. I deepen my understanding of game events and mechnics as well as form and/or adjust my conceptualization of the game. The only difference in my mind between OOC clans and the forums is that it's not a message board based discussion, but a real-time chat. There's also the fact that people in OOC clans are more friendly with one-another, usually, since they're also usually friends.

Tully

The problem for some people is that OOC clans, as opposed to writing on the forums (or chatting via Skype/Twitter/IRC), is that if your listening or talking while also playing the game, it's kind of like talking during a movie, or turning on the commentary track on a DVD instead of watching the movie as is--could you enjoy a movie is there was a couple talking loudly next to you, or a bunch of kids in back heckling?  I've not joined any OOC clans because I want a truly immersible experience, and don't want to rant about events, metagame, or listen to jokes or discuss real world stuff while I'm playing.  It's not just this game--I would always play Left 4 Dead or Borderlands solo before playing with a group, as I want to focus on the game and not hear somebody directing me via chat.

The use of OOC clans can be distracting to some, as Tacita has indicated.  It can also lead to people caring more about the OOC chat than the IC chat, which then leaves some people out of conversation, and then role-playing gets minimized.  I brought this up because Estarra--as a GM--lamented that as soon as the scroll was released, it got posted here.  (Remember, Estarra's player is acting as a GM, rather than a novel writer, and I'm sure seeing the players interact and play the game is more important then the OOC commentary).

I think people need to take personal inventory and figure out for their own personal selves if OOC distract, and I think at times people might want to consider at the very least, turning them off when things like big events happen, or using them sparingly.  The one thing I fear is if OOC becomes the norm, then IC communication and playing diminishes, making a new norm.  I'm glad I'm not the only person who sees the downsides to these avenues.  

Tacita

Maybe encouraging things like IRC to be used more again would be the way to go. I talk to a few people on skype/similar, but don't get the chatroom feel that OOC clans had (which I liked).

I want to froth about this awesome game and enjoy it with other people - I just don't want it to tarnish the gaming experience. It's tricksy.

Lerad

Tully said:

...
I've not joined any OOC clans because I want a truly immersible experience, and don't want to rant about events, metagame, or listen to jokes or discuss real world stuff while I'm playing.
...

I don't feel that membership and participation in an OOC clan neccesarily means that all members of the clan are ruining immersion for everyone listening and/or metagaming. Obviously, not everyone has the same degree of self-restraint nor the same ability to seperate IC from OOC, and at the same time, the threshold where reading something becomes ruinous to immersion or distracting is also different for everyone.

Certainly no one should be forced to participate in OOC clans if they don't wish to be, but at the same time, it doesn't mean OOC clans must neccesarily result in the detraction of the gameplaying experience for those who do choose to participate in them. Of course, this can be partly due to the fact that players can be mature and properly seperate IC from OOC, but also due to the fact that some players simply don't play the game for the RP. This may not be the way you and I play the game, nor the way you and I feel the game should be played. But it would not be fair to claim this manner of enjoying the game is "wrong" or "bad".

Tully said:

...
 It can also lead to people caring more about the OOC chat than the IC chat, which then leaves some people out of conversation, and then role-playing gets minimized.
...

...I think at times people might want to consider at the very least, turning them off when things like big events happen, or using them sparingly.  The one thing I fear is if OOC becomes the norm, then IC communication and playing diminishes, making a new norm.  I'm glad I'm not the only person who sees the downsides to these avenues.  

If there is anything "wrong" with OOC communication, it would be that it can affect other players who choose not to participate in such communication. As a side-effect or as a conscious choice, players in OOC clans can exclude valuable information to others by only talking about it in OOC clans. As a side-effect or as a conscious choice, players who would have normally tried to get such information ICly also end up no longer doing so if they can get access to it OOCly, leading to less RP in general.

This is, unfortunately, an inevitable aspect of the maturing of a game community. As a community gets older and players more comfortable with each other, ways to interact outside of the game is explored. When these people-turned-friends (as much as acquaintances over the internet can be "friends") get friendly with each other, they naturally want to talk about what they mutually have an interest for, and thus they bring their OOC chatter into the game.

Furthermore, there's no way to stamp out OOC communication in its entirety, and IRC, AIM or other instant messaging tools can easily replace OOC clans. It is not very difficult to hook up an IRC channel to feed text directly to a MUD client and to send text through aliases to it, through the MUD client. At the same time, we also do not want OOC communication to disappear in its entirety, because there is information that cannot possibly be gotten a hold of via only IC means either.

Even putting aside the option of permanently removing OOC communication: temporarily disabling such communications during important events can help a little, but it is neither a long-term solution, nor a very effective one in the short-term. What we should, and can, be doing is to continually make IC interactions more fun, as well as self-policing the OOC clans we are a part of, to keep things which should be IC, IC. Removing OOC commentary and deliberation amongst players who choose to participate in them is neither going to be possible to any noticeable extent, nor effective in curbing the lack of RP, because while increasing OOC communication can lead to less IC communication, the vice-versa is not neccesarily true.

Tully

Lerad, you are getting way too defensive here. None of us ever said anything about banning OOC clans, we are just discussing potential downsides.

Lerad

If something has as negative an effect on the gameplay experience as what your post said, considering limiting, restricting or banning it is more than reasonable.

You certainly didn't advocate banning OOC clans, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered as a solution. I considered it seriously as a possible solution, and outlined my arguments for and against it in my post, is all.

Qistrel

I think that my problem with OOC clans is because I have trouble separating things, now that you mention it. So I need to do what's best for me, and not join them.

Tully

Bumping back because of a few things I've been thinking about.

One thing I've noticed is a trend on the forums for "meta-RP" threads.  These include the following I can see on the page:  "Discuss your Character", "Perceptions of Characters", and "Character Secrets".  It seems more players feel like discussing their characters OOC with others instead of actually experiencing things in-game.  I find the 3rd option kind of troubling--if they are supposed to be secrets, why are you telling people on the forums.  Wouldn't it be better to find out in the context of the game itself.

Lerad said something that I also felt I should respond to:  Of course, this can be partly due to the fact that players can be mature and properly seperate IC from OOC.  See, I don't think this has anything to do with "maturity", but rather, you can only be a virgin once.  I've been seeing how this happens with playing a game in a world I've never expeirence before. I've been less active in game, as I spent the last few months playing Skyrim.  I've never played TES games before that, so I was naturally curious about the world, and I devoured any in-game book I saw.  Of course, this wasn't enough so I visited TES Wiki, and learned a little more.  However, in the process of doing that--while I avoided Skyrim specific stuff to try to be surprised, I did ruin some surprises for myself that I should have been more prudent with.  So I might not be able to enjoy Oblivion, should I play it in the future, as much as if I was completely ignorant to the plot.

Think of movies like Citizen Kane or The Sixth Sense.  The general nature of those movies is that you don't want to spoil yourselves.  In this case, it's not a "maturity" thing, but rather a surprise thing.  No matter what you do, if you know the plot points in advance it will change your experience of those movies.  Thus, too, is true in the game.  If people spend too much time in the meta-commentary rather than in the game itself, and spend time working on relationships, writing in-game memoirs or forming alliances solely to share knowledge instead of discussing that knowledge out of the game, it might enhance the experience for some.  

In this case, I understand Estarra's frustration when she works for a full year writing a plot and somebody posts the books here and all the discussion happens in the meta-commentary instead of the virtual world.  And I do worry that maybe this is how people perceive games now, with the more popular MMOs changing how we roleplay.  It would be a shame if 90% of the roleplay moves to the forums, for instance.

Just some things to think about.

Lavinya

I'm so torn, to be honest! I always am. I find if I ignore ooc clans and the like, I engage better in roleplay, diving in to the world more fully. But I always want to know things, and chat with friends, and the forums allow us to interact with people on the other side of the alliance fence that we normally couldn't, not very freely anyway. It's a tough balance.

Lerad

I see where you're coming from, Tully, and I have to say that my opinion is essentially opposed to yours in foundation. Not that I disagree with not spoiling other people's games other reasonable stuff you mentioned, but rather, in the basic premise of our stances.

Your stance is that knowing certain things, "plot points" as you call them, will change the experience of a person's gameplay, largely for the worse. You've likened this to virginity with your statement, with the most concrete of your examples of these being "spoilers" of movie plots.

My stance is that knowing certain things, plot points or otherwise, mechanics or RP reasonings, motivations etc, will change the experience of a person's gameplay, largely for the better. I postulate and argue that knowledge in itself brings to the table a dimension and enjoyment of the experience that would have otherwise been missed. I'd like to point out that Citizen Kane is a great example of a classic that can be watched and re-watched and re-watched again and again and again with more enjoyment every time. Just knowing what has happened doesn't diminish it in anyway, but instead, makes it better. I also would like to note that movies are very different from RP gameplay experience in text based MUDs, and in Lusternia specifically. Hollywood "blockbusters" which are only for gratuitous violence notwithstanding, even classics are not exactly a good analogy to RP experience.

Obviously, comparing virginity to this is even more irrelevant, so I'm not going to even bother to address that.

I believe that when meta-knowledge spoils RP experience, it is due to immaturity. The inability to seperate OOC from IC - what your character should know, from what you as a player know. In fact, this very dimension of being able to switch between two personalities is something I consider a mental excercise that is very fulfilling and fun. It is difficult, and mistakes are always made, but I myself take great enjoyment in participating in it when I do RP. Now, I'd like to digress a little and note that mistakes made here are different from the "immaturity" that I am speaking of, and which you referenced. People who cannot seem to put into their minds that characters are seperate from their players are immature, in my words. I hate the way Kelly acts in the game, but I certainly bear no malice whatsoever to her player. I love the RP that I see Svorai engaged in, but I bear absolutely no romantic longing for her player. If I were to term it bluntly, I could say that I can't care less for Svorai's player any more than I could for Kelly's player. In a choice between talking to Kelly and Svorai in the game, however, I'm going to choose Svorai 101 times out of 100.

Just because you know a character's secret, and what other characters think of your characters, or what other people had in mind in therms of RP motivations when they made that character, doesn't mean your experience in the actual game becomes ruined. I believe it enriches and makes the game environment even more enjoyable, for those who can seperate the meta from the IC.

Tully

You seem to have trouble understanding the analogy I was using.  (Is English your native language--I'm only asking because you seem to have trouble understanding when I'm using an idiom or a metaphor, and I hope its not something lost in translation).  

By Virginity, I mean unspoiled, as is not having experienced it yourself for the first time.  While it is true you can enjoy the movies I mentioned, if you read the spoilers before watching either of them, you have ruined one key element of the experience that you can never get back.  That's a price paid for knowledge, and while in most cases I would argue that the more you learn about the real world, it's a positive--when it comes to entertainment, sometimes ignorance is bliss.

No matter how mature you are, once you learn something, there is no practical way to unlearn it.  This can have subconscious influences, and maybe affect things no matter what.  If you knew about a surprise party for yourself, no matter what you do you can't surprise yourself anymore--you can fake it for your friends, but some people might see through it.  When it comes to entertainment, sometimes, too much knowledge will hurt the experience. 

For example, during my long absence, when I popped in around the holiday season (either in 2008 or 2009, can't remember), somebody told me who (he thought) two of the gods were before they became gods, and I was upset, as now no matter what I do, I am always trying to compare the god to the characters and what they wrote on the forums.  In that case, it has nothing to do with being mature or immature, as I've never let it affect the game, but it does bring some intrusion into the thought process that I would rather not have.

And why I can understand why some people may want more meta information and actually enjoy it more, too much or overemphasis of it can lead to problems with the game, as others have said.  I just wish you wouldn't frame it as "people who let meta-knowledge spoil their games are immature", because that's a little too simplistic and unfair.

Tacita

Tully said:

Bumping back because of a few things I've been thinking about.

One thing I've noticed is a trend on the forums for "meta-RP" threads.  These include the following I can see on the page:  "Discuss your Character", "Perceptions of Characters", and "Character Secrets".  It seems more players feel like discussing their characters OOC with others instead of actually experiencing things in-game.  I find the 3rd option kind of troubling--if they are supposed to be secrets, why are you telling people on the forums.  Wouldn't it be better to find out in the context of the game itself.

I personally feel like those threads enhance the quality of my roleplay because it forces me to think more about my character and how they interact with other people, and so forth. I'm sure that's not for everyone, but that's why I bumped two of those threads and started another.

Of course it's more fun to find out in-game. But the whole point of those threads is to froth happily about things that happened in-game. You can't really post on them without having contributed to the game in some sort of roleplay context - for example, how does my character have an opinion of someone if she's never interacted with them? 

That's why I think it develops them, encourages people to think more about their character's actions - and that, I think, actually enhances the OOC/IC divide rather than hindering it. Because if people are actively analysing and thinking about their character's feelings and choices rather than/as well as reacting instinctively in-game, then they are much more likely to be able to mentally separate their own thoughts from their character's. (It's also worth pointing out that there are things I would never post on those threads; things that I want to be found out purely through interacting with my character).

I'm sure for every person who contributes to these threads and enjoys using them to enhance and develop their roleplay, there is someone who takes the knowledge there in-game and utilises it in a debilitating/unfun manner. I can't help that, nor do I think a few people should spoil it for the rest of us. (I don't think it matters why that is, I don't feel a need to get into a debate about the maturity or immaturity of players because I'm sure we're all quite capable of being both). I also feel like if you make OOC discussion about IC things into a taboo and cull it from the forums, no one will have a frame of reference for speaking like that positively - which means you are actually more likely to see people discussing it in ways that have a negative impact on the OOC/IC divides that should exist, since they don't think there's any other way of discussing it.

Equally, there are people who do not enjoy those threads. That's fine! I don't enjoy threads where people start massive arguments that go in circles and cross the border between opposing someone and insulting them - so I don't read them or post in them. I also don't like discussing precise instances of in-character politics OOCly, so I don't do that either. But that doesn't mean other people shouldn't. I think it's the same as some people liking PvP and some not, but neither side should rag on the other for liking/not liking it. We all play this game for different reasons and with different points of view - that's what makes it fun. I think sometimes it's better to just "leave the other side to it", as it were.

As the person who's been bumping all those meta threads lately I thought it was important to give my perspective on it, so I hope that helps explain why - even if you don't agree with it.

Xenthos

Tully said:

You seem to have trouble understanding the analogy I was using.  (Is English your native language--I'm only asking because you seem to have trouble understanding when I'm using an idiom or a metaphor, and I hope its not something lost in translation).  

Seriously?

You picked an analogy that is fraught with very specific meaning in today's culture.  If you're not getting your point across the way you want to, you don't need to go pointing the blame at someone else's ability to speak the language.

Tully

Quote buttons aren't working for me, so real quick...

Tacita, I understand.  I was just kind of curious about the "secrets" thread.  My only concern is like what you said at the beginning of the thread, where people end up doing more forum RP than real RP.  We do have the ability to write our own backgrounds, so I can see this as a similar thing.  I think the way games are changing there's a natural tendency for us to get lazy and use the easier tools.  (I also wanted to share my experiences reading the Elder Scrolls Wiki while playing Skyrim and how it changed my experience).

Xenthos--my only reason for asking that is lately in the past few months on other forums I have encountered people who have not been native English speakers (where it's not entirely obvious based on their eloquent vocabulary) and who've misinterpreted my statements based on idioms and metaphors.  So I figured I'd ask, just to make sure.  

Lerad

Yes, English is one of my native languages. I also understood what you were trying to say. I took particular umbrage at your virginity metaphor because I'm personally leery of the kind of underlying reasoning that equates "virginity" with "unspoiled". This kind of logic gives the illusion of some essential and universal value in being a "virgin", as though everyone should value it in a certain way.

Note that I'm skeptical of both the equating of virginity to that kind of universal value AS WELL AS the existence of such a universal value in the first place. The former I chose not to go into detail in my previous post, and I still won't go into detail here. The latter, however, was already addressed in my previous post as well.

Not everyone puts equal value in what someone else would term as an "unspoiled" experience (avoiding the unfortunate metaphor above). That's what I was trying to say, I guess I didn't manage to write it as clearly as I tried to. The sharing of knowledge on a level outside of the game's RP environment does not neccesarily mean ruination or, to use a milder word, deterioration of the overall game experience for anyone. In fact, it can improve it - something you also have acknowledged in your latest two posts. How exactly it can be improved depends on the person we're talking about. This is also something I've mentioned in my earlier posts in this thread as well.

Lerad said:

... Obviously, not everyone has the same degree of self-restraint nor the same ability to seperate IC from OOC, and at the same time, the threshold where reading something becomes ruinous to immersion or distracting is also different for everyone...

Using one of your examples again, Tully, while you get upset and your experience made lesser for being told who an admin's previous characters could have been, another different person might become excited and motivated to seek in-game interaction with said admin instead. That there is this possibility means that there is no information that is essentially or universally valued in a certain way, good or bad. It goes on, logically, to mean that there is no such thing as a "key element" that would apply to everyone, for the enjoyment of any form of entertainment. If I made a misunderstanding of any of your points, perhaps it would be this one. Before your latest two posts, I was under the impression that you felt there was something inherently damaging about sharing knowledge outside of the game's environment.

Now that I've read your replies, I'm actually relieved to see you've also noted that participation in all of these (forums being one example) is voluntary. This is also an important aspect. If you notice at the start of my previous post, I made the explicit statement that I do not disagree with the reasonable parts of your conclusions: that we should not be forcing such information down other people's throats:

Lerad said:

I see where you're coming from, Tully, and I have to say that my opinion is essentially opposed to yours in foundation. Not that I disagree with not spoiling other people's games other reasonable stuff you mentioned, but rather, in the basic premise of our stances.

So, in summary, my point is that sharing can only make the game better, when this sharing is voluntary. And the forums are one example of this. The exceptions I have to the possibility of this sharing becoming bad is what I say when I talked about "immaturity" in IC/OOC seperation. Which brings me to your final concern:

Tully said:

I just wish you wouldn't frame it as "people who let meta-knowledge spoil their games are immature", because that's a little too simplistic and unfair

I wouldn't frame it as "people who let meta-knowledge spoil their games are immature". I would frame it as "people who let meta-knowledge spoil other people's games are immature". Note that this is also the basis of my example (of using myself) in my previous post: I will not go out my way to troll Kelly anymore than I would Svorai, simply because whatever happens to my character in the game, as an action done by Kelly (or Svorai), is something I firmly put in RP.

When you're the victim, certainly you shouldn't be labelled as "immature". If I made the impression that I was trying to say that, then you have my apologies.

Tully

Using one of your examples again, Tully, while you get upset and your experience made lesser for being told who an admin's previous characters could have been, another different person might become excited and motivated to seek in-game interaction with said admin instead. 

The one key thing though to remember--in this particular case--is that the admin really frown on this level of knowledge and actively discourage it.  This is why they censor speculation of who a god used to be in game in forums (and why the facebook mods do this), and tell Ephemerals to cut all ties to the playerbase (such as OOC friendships, for instance).  And while the OOC clans are ignored, talk smack about a god on them and you may suffer an IC response, which is the stance some of them take, since OOC are not officially accepted as OOC.  In certain cases, this knowledge usually has some level of detrimental effects--it can lead to judging the god, or excessive preferecnes and grudges if you're not careful, and I can understand why there are precedents to this.  

I brought this up as an example of the most extreme case.  There are other cases--Estarra has asked that people not publish Quest walkthroughs and most players accept this out of respect for her.

I realize that our own perspectives are sort of the polar opposites of the spectrum, so I'll agree to disagree.  I just think the fact that others have mentioned the drawbacks (you're the only one really arguing the other side in this thread) of too much OOC or meta-gaming tells me we should be aware of the flaws.

Lerad

I'm sorry, but I wasn't using your examples for their content, but to prove that there is no knowledge that is bad.

I could care zitch about whether this knowledge is taboo. You can use a totally different topic. For example, let's say if someone told you they ate curry for dinner last night, you would get super upset and not be able to play Lusternia properly. The same point applies, someone else could get told about eating curry and become motivated to do more RP. Whatever.

And as for whether people sharing knowledge can lead to them coming to "judging the god, or excesssive preferences and grudges", it only proves that knowledge is only bad (or good) in how it is used. That these people judge with prejudice and flawed logic is not a fault of being told who the admin's characters are. It's a fault of their prejudice and flawed logic. If the admin want to make certain knowledge taboo to avoid this, they're welcome to it and I support it. But that's neither here nor there, nor relevant to our discussion.

I would like to note that I'm perfectly aware of the drawbacks of sharing knowledge. That's the "immature" thing I'm talking about. It can lead to people who are not careful about what they learn spoiling the game for people (like yours was spoiled). That doesn't, in my argument, make sharing any less desirable is all.

Tully

I'm just going to have to disagree with you that "no revealed knowledge is bad", simply because there are cases in an entertainment perspective, where knowledge can have bad effects on experience that entertainment.

Llandros

I read the character threads because I find it interesting to read about other peoples RP that I will NEVER interact with IC.

I'm hardly going to have an involved RP interaction with someone from Celest while I am trying to kill them in the most humiliating way I can think of or chat with their soul while I desecrate their corpse. So it's interesting to me to see how other people view the game and trying to understand their points of view. 

I mostly use OOC clans to talk about game mechanics, discuss strategies, personal lives of e-friends and catch up on news I would not likely find out on my own. I really just don't have the time or desire to poll the entire population of the game every few hours to see what they are up to.

Enyalida

I find OOC 'spoilers' to RP extremely valuable for enhancing roleplay. 

Long story short, part of real life is being totally unplanned and uncoordinated. You can't orchestrate a dramatic point or engineer a movie-like situation, it just has to happen. And times when it does happen are generally few and far between. When you're playing a cooperative RP game (of any type), effort is generally made to skip to those points. In Lusternia, time is compressed (From our perspective), and many of the daily necessities of real life are essentially removed, to assist with that. However, being able to write a rough 'script' of events or coordinate rp with other players can greatly increase the rate at which significant events crop up.

The other problem with RP as it exists in a mud is that in real life interactions, you have a much more complex and rich feed on the person you're interacting with. You can notice things they didn't intend to let on, and make infrences based on their normal patterns. You can't really do that in a mud game. It's what makes mafia in a mud context so bizarre: The real game is all about catching someone lying, by the way they say things. In a text environment, it's all too easy to simply omit any of those identifiers, to the point where you'll only catch out really inexperienced people in a lie, unless they specifically are trying to get caught.

To illustrate the point, I have some potential RP on the backburner about how my character fears letting her relationship with her daughter mirror the relationship my character had with her mother. She's a little depressed about that state of things, and how she feels like she has sacrificed her relationship with her child for her work in guild/commune. How does this come out as an interaction with another player? I could sit at a common gathering place and sigh dramatically until someone asks me what is wrong. However, this is outside of my character's persona (and most people's characters. Imagine people who do this in real life, ugh.), and is likely to foist a heavy RP line onto someone who really doesn't want to deal with it. If I sit somewhere private and do the same, it's likely I'll never meet anyone to hear my sighs (this is a problem with guildhalls and RP). Dropping hints in public places is just a scaled down version of the 'SIGHHHH' thing, but it's all essentially the same.

 Or, I can send a message to a trusted player/character (like Wobou, my character's husband) saying something along the lines of: "((Hey, Enya is going through something of a personal emotional crisis, but she doesn't really want to talk about it. I want to RP it out, are you available? You might have noticed her being depressed and trying to conceal it lately, and being over-motherly to people of the same general description as her daughter (Female, young, druid).))". Without some kind of basic prompting like this, he's either not going to know about this entire line of RP that my character wants to keep 'secret', or it's going to be foisted on him with no warning. 

That's a basic sort of spoiler that goes a long way to promoting healthy RP! Using that, you can warn people ahead of time that you're going to be pursuing some potentially sensitive or mood-dependent rp, and you can coordinate a free time that you're open to doing that RP and will have enough time. Not all RP works like this, but saying that all spoilers are inherently bad for RP is absurd, it's just not true.  

Personally, I prefer roleplaying that involves foreknown 'hooks'. It gives me more time to inhabit the character and understand what sort of reaction she'd have to the situation. It also allows more premeditated 'aha' moments, where everything falls together and characters click, something otherwise rare or contrived when it happens randomly. If the folk involved in a conversation understand the general idea of where that conversation is going, they can steer it to the most satisfying conclusion (Even if that conclusion doesn't provide closure). 

Svorai

Lerad said:

I love the RP that I see Svorai engaged in, but I bear absolutely no romantic longing for her player.

</3 Not feeling the love, Lerad!

But I agree. I will likely spend RL years never knowing anything about the people on the other side of the fence, simply because my character is not in a position to be developing relationships with them, were I not to speak with them OOCly or see logs or thoughts posted on the forums.

I take Lusternia like I take a book. I am a co-author in one of those books where each chapter is from the POV of a new character. There's writing your character's chapter in the book (roleplaying ICly) and then there's enjoying the whole book in its entirety by reading it (hearing/reading things OOCly).

I've no issue with these threads. I can choose not to read them. I can choose how much I want to divulge (and I, for one, don't divulge game-changers!). 

What *is* unfortunate is people taking logs/information that they didn't get ICly into the game. But that's on the maturity and integrity of players. And there are issues and role docking to police that. If you can't consider plot points as a player without them affecting your character, then you are not a very well-developed roleplayer yet! It's the same kind of restraint an author uses in a book. You don't divulge the massive twist in early chapters. Even though you might be excited for everyone to know about it -- it doesn't help your book if you do! 

As others have said, reading about others' perceptions, 'secrets', roleplay logs and discussions on their own character makes me think about my own character and how I could improve her. Reading this stuff enriches my experience of Lusternia a million fold. Otherwise, I'd only ever see my perspective, and that's pretty narrow.

Kaimanahi

Lerad said:

I hate the way Kelly acts in the game, but I certainly bear no malice whatsoever to her player.

I'm just misunderstood.

Tully

To be fair, I only mentioned the RP threads in passing--I was just curious about the character secrets one, which I feel is TMI.  I honestly don't think there's a real problem with that level of discussion, or with posting logs after the fact.

For me, the only main reason why I argue about this is because of specific instances, such as lore discussion, where I think we might tend to move towards OOC discussions.  The key test I use for whether OOC is becoming too dominant is this--setup by the IRE company (based on the help files), you should never have to go outside the game to be "clued in".  If people can't get the whole experience or feel like they are "second class citizens" without joining an OOC clan, or if communication is getting lazy and not discussed within ones own city or org, then I think that's a warning sign there's a problem.  

(I should write on why I personally take a rather isolated stance and avoid OOC relationships with the playerbase other than my forum interaction, when my character is a bit of an extrovert, so that people understand my perspective--but I'm too tired right now...)

Lillie

When it comes to forum RP, I only divulge details that are totally irrelevant and impact nothing (such as Lillie's original hair color; big whoop). If you want the good stuff, like why he stutters (tip: it's not shyness or a speech impediment), what the deal is with him and wyverns, or where he goes on nights when there's a new moon, or the bigger stuff like who he was once engaged to...gotta rev up that RP.