Wildewood Special Report

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Comments

  • I think it's nice that people are invested enough in their RP to be concerned about the meaning and importance attached to the title of "druid", whatever it is defined as, by the guild or by personal philosophy. However, there are bigger fish to fry, and more important problems with the new spec that should be fixed mechanically than to cater to player-defined RP.

    I think Eventru's got the best answer: the wildewood aren't druids, they come from a place where druids don't exist. They are in the Hartstone not because they are druids, but because they don't have a guild called the "Wildest Woodies" to join. What should be changing is the Hartstone's RP, not just having a sickle tacked onto something they summon so people can gloss over the fact that they are not druids, and save themselves the trouble of actually RPing. If you don't care enough for your guild's RP to go to the trouble and hassle of doing the (cosmetic) changes, then don't. It's a game, and you're free to abandon made-up ideals in a made-up virtual space if you don't believe in them enough.

  • edited January 2013
    I guess what it boils down to is what is defined as a Druid! If you want to define it as one who is close to the animals and forest itself, Wildewoods are just another kind of Druid. They're more like tenders of trees and embodiments of nature.

    Whether you label them as "Druids" or not, I think attaching such importance to something like the sickle is.. Meh. One thing I really like about Wildewood is that it's uniquely Seren, and very much so. With the BT and HS sharing druidry and sickles (and that long being a point of contention for those players), why would you want to further spread those themes out?

    I don't really have an opinion (you get Garland before you would cudgel, so the need for an item beyond talisman is diminished), but if we were to go that route, I'd rather see something uniquely Wildewood. Of course, through it all, I think it's important to draw the connection that Wildewood are connected deeply to the Hartstone, their goals, and their patron spirit, Hart. Shouldn't move away from guild identity, but bring it together. I have faith it can come together really well.

    If you're struggling on how to define things and/or draw those lines, you really should talk to your patron(s). Hoaracle, Maylea and even your archephemeral Calythan can help with that, and if there's questions as to design, they have the blessing of a direct route to Estarra, who usually is happy to help us with those kinds of questions. More than anyone, she has the most insight to everything lore-wise!
  • I'm already working on one, which also address things like... druid being defined as an archetype which is probably going to need to be updated to reflect the two primary spec options.

     

    And yes, the sharing is something that has been hated for quite some time. I'm fairly certain we've actually asked for unique cudgels/talismans before for druidry. But what this doesn't change is the memory of that moment way back when I first graduated from novicehood in the Moondancers and was able to summon my first Athame, it was ridiculously exciting and it didn't matter if it was any different mechanically from my talisman because it marked the progression from novice to guild member. (yes, unique to nature users but still cool)

     

    Right now, with it just remaining a talisman you're kinda marked just as a novice in the ways of nature just due to how things have functioned since release. If it were to change into something unique to the Wildewood then cool, but right now it doesn't and that's lame.

  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited January 2013
    More on tack with the thread, any admin thoughts on my analysis on page 5? I don't think any sort of progress can be made with special or regular reporting on this skillset unless everyone is on the same page as far seeing those changes as necessary. 

    If we work together, we can handle the RP aspects pretty easily once we're somewhat sure of what the skillset is going to look like, including adding in a specific talisman. It'd would also be a very good juncture to introduce those specific cudgels (which Estarra has asked be a part of a larger thematics change, instead of a stand-alone report just changing the cosmetics) as we explore the differences between our Wldewoods and Druids. In the Hartstone, we currently have what... 5 channels for discussion on such topics! Two guild channels, an "Elder's only" guild RP planning/leadership clan for al lthe elder members, a "The three elected leaders only" clan, and a general purpose (but mostly combat discussion/skills discussion) ooc channel, not to mention the overall Serenwilde RP coordination channel (for which I'm working on a big joint MD/HS ritualist project.) We should hash out all the minor details and touches that draw a skillset/org together through all of these IG (OOc and IC) methods, not here on the forums where there are bigger (and more rightfully public) fish to fry!
  • edited January 2013
    Enyalida said:
    More on tack with the thread, any admin thoughts on my analysis on page 5? I don't think any sort of progress can be made with special or regular reporting on this skillset unless everyone is on the same page as far seeing those changes as necessary. 

    If we work together, we can handle the RP aspects pretty easily once we're somewhat sure of what the skillset is going to look like, including adding in a specific talisman. It'd would also be a very good juncture to introduce those specific cudgels (which Estarra has asked be a part of a larger thematics change, instead of a stand-alone report just changing the cosmetics) as we explore the differences between our Wldewoods and Druids. In the Hartstone, we currently have what... 5 channels for discussion on such topics! Two guild channels, an "Elder's only" guild RP planning/leadership clan for al lthe elder members, a "The three elected leaders only" clan, and a general purpose (but mostly combat discussion/skills discussion) ooc channel, not to mention the overall Serenwilde RP coordination channel (for which I'm working on a big joint MD/HS ritualist project.) We should hash out all the minor details and touches that draw a skillset/org together through all of these IG (OOc and IC) methods, not here on the forums where there are bigger (and more rightfully public) fish to fry!

    What's this Serenwilde rp clan? I have not heard about it and given... well Saran being Saran I'm surprised I haven't been approached personally about a MD/HS ritualist project... he's only written multiple rituals for both guilds.

     

    As for which we should focus on first, it has been mentioned that the special report hasn't even been requested yet. So it seems like pushing for it isn't really going to go anywhere, and right now I'm trying to work on matters of integration of the new skill into the guild which is something we can probably actually do right now.

  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.

    Hey, you know what you get instead of a new talisman, or a sparkly athame?

     

     

    You turn into a freaking walking, talking, breathing tree person.

    Get a grip. That kind of does all those things these ridiculous complaints are about. Marks you as a non novice, unique to your guild, etc. Good grief.

    image
  • edited January 2013
    So, having passed this around a bit with Astrasia and Qistrel, I'm settling into the idea of Wildewoods not really being druids in the classic sense. Druids have a sort of authority in the forest, and it's hard to tell a tree to do something if you're practically a tree yourself. This sort of strips you of the "controlling" aspect, but at the same time, it leaves us open to the idea of Wildewood being more receptively in-tune with the forest, in the same way demigods are more in tune with domoths.

    It would be mad cool to have some abilities reflecting or reinforcing that idea. Perhaps moonhart bark could sense events related to the totems and druidic saplings, and maybe give a scan of sorts? Or perhaps there could be some sort of watching mechanism for when people enter/leave serenwilde and planes? A general higher awareness of the forest would be cool, and would fit in with the "protecting what's left" rationale that Wisdom implied.

    On a semi-related note, I'm faced with a problem i have when thinking about lucidian. Exactly how tree-like are they? Is it left up to our interpretation?
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    It looks like coppice has been fixed, so numbers and other testing on that will be forthcoming. Sondayga and I did notice that when I stood in his demesne while linked with him, my Glinshari instantly killed him (at 7.3k health or so) with only faeriefire present to boost its damage.
  • SilvanusSilvanus The Sparrowhawk
    Izekeal killed me :(

    Nerf Wildewood
    2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy
    For Glinshari and equivalents, a message that it is coming from any range of rooms is urgently needed.
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    I'd say what is needed for the 10p powers is to have a limit to how often they can strike the same target. Limit it to 1 strike to each person every 10 seconds rather than having a situation where 2 people time theirs together and kill 3 people, leaving a fourth to run and lick their wounds at 800-ish hp (Only because said fourth person managed to get a health sip in between the two strikes)

    Either that, or reduce the damage the more targets it hits, although that would still be a bit overkill where 2 people can insta-kill someone in seconds. I thought this was why TP psyvamp got nerfed in the first place, so several people couldn't bomb one in seconds. I can understand that unleash staff does the same amount of damage and is meld-wide (At least that's what people are claiming, way I understand it, it hits only surrounding rooms), but the difference with unleash staff is that it can't be timed to strike twice in rapid succession (even with refresh power), as there can't be two different individuals striking the same location due to the fact that it is limited to the meld itself.
    image

    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • NeosNeos The Subtle Griefer
    Elanorwen said:
    I thought this was why TP psyvamp got nerfed in the first place, so several people couldn't bomb one in seconds
    As the person who had suggested the change to Shedrin, no, that was not the reason, though it did play a very small role, and now I fully regret the decision.
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    Celina said:
    You can't really same the same, can you?
    Zvoltz said:
    "The Panthron"
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Neos said:
    Elanorwen said:
    I thought this was why TP psyvamp got nerfed in the first place, so several people couldn't bomb one in seconds
    As the person who had suggested the change to Shedrin, no, that was not the reason, though it did play a very small role, and now I fully regret the decision.
    No, no... I didn't mean the Shedrin change. If memory serves, multiple psyvamps suffered from diminishing returns before Shedrin took a whack at it.
    image

    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • NeosNeos The Subtle Griefer
    Elanorwen said:
    Neos said:
    Elanorwen said:
    I thought this was why TP psyvamp got nerfed in the first place, so several people couldn't bomb one in seconds
    As the person who had suggested the change to Shedrin, no, that was not the reason, though it did play a very small role, and now I fully regret the decision.
    No, no... I didn't mean the Shedrin change. If memory serves, multiple psyvamps suffered from diminishing returns before Shedrin took a whack at it.
    As far as I can recall, and from checking past announce post, there was never a change like that made.
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    Celina said:
    You can't really same the same, can you?
    Zvoltz said:
    "The Panthron"
  • Glinshari/Aquotoxism definitely need to be reviewed before Ascension, and preferably before War. Their damage is too high, they're too easy to stack, and can hit with little-to-no warning if you're moving (apparently the caster can move and not lose the spell). Pollute/etc seem to not hit as hard (I was one-shot by a no-aff/no-meld Glinshari, a similar Aquotox did 75% of my health, etc), drain all mana from the caster, have the meld-wide warning signal, and could not be stacked (because they require meld). Please put a shared or target-based cooldown on the effect, and look over the damage formula again.

    It seems they have a Magic source, which is probably the reason for the variation of their damage. Pollute/etc were switched to no-source to avoid things like magic runes affecting them.

    I'm really scared that a 3-man Aqua or Hartstone team will take War just by linking up and hitting glinshari/aquotox. Ascension might be saved by LongNight/Unholywater.


  • Yep, you can just check that log where Glinshari hit two people with unholywater, which doesn't even return the full damage amount, and the caster was killed outright. 

    With the long cool down on unholy water and that it triggers on any damage attack there is no way two people would have it ready to go at the same time in the heat of battle. 

    The 'set up' there was simply to walk into the room right before it hit and wtfpwn everyone in it.

    Room wide attacks with little or no set up are fine but for this damage level it needs to be a finisher, not a starter, middler, and mass murdererer

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  • o Aquachemantics Aquoxitism and Wildewood GlinshariMist were doing too much damage, and this has now been fixed.

    image
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Need to also consider that next in line to receive their updated primary are Aeromancers. They're likely to have an ability like that as well and considering the current shaky alliance appears to be gathering with Celest, Seren and Hallifax, it would probably go even more overkill, especially if you add balestone to that list. It'll turn into a direct slugfest unless it is fixed. A cooldown per attack like that per person seems to be the best solution (i.e. the same person cannot be hit by the same type of ability by more than one caster, or if hit like that, the damage will be subject to massive diminishing returns) The ability would still be quite overkill in that it deals a decent chunk of hp (As a faeling, I'm rather squishy, but I have yet to see anyone else have the capacity to 2-shot me, even with expending 20p) In fact, on average, my health fluctuates around 5.4-5.7k presently, and I'm getting hit for over 3k without a single affliction to increase the damage on Glinshari/Aqua-tongue-twister. Considering the abilities hit 3 other people in the same attack, it's just a bit too much. Any kind of nuke where it's all about which team dumps its 10p faster than the other team kind of devolves combat into nothingness. Now, if I'm wrong and damage is reduced based on the amount of people it hits (Doesn't seem to be the case, I've seen it hit just me and still deal 3k), one still needs to consider the fact that they can also just clean out their enemy list and use it single-target to nuke a meld holder, something that should not be possible with such ease.

    Again, I've had PBs dump 8p in puissance/assault on me and not come even close to putting me in as much danger as a couple of wildewood/aquachems could. It is supposedly meant as an insta-kill provided the druid/aqua can stick afflicts on the target, which some people claim is too expensive at being 10p... but then, they should probably consider that a regular druid needs to dump somewhere upward of 14p to execute a thornrend. Sometimes more, depending on who they're fighting, and then again, a single wrong step in the long setup of a thornrend kill means that you lose all progress and have to start all over again.

    On the other hand, note to self to check changelog:
    o Aquachemantics Aquoxitism and Wildewood GlinshariMist were doing too much damage, and this has now been fixed.

    I guess we'll just have to see how this reduction changes things before continuing the discussion.
    image

    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited February 2013
    With the changes to damage formulas, I took to the arena with Sondayga to test how much damage I can put out with a Glinshari. Not happy with what I found!


    Glinshari: 
    50% blunt, 50% cutting, Brute Magical source. 


    Me
    18 strength. I max out at 19, which adds ~80 damage over these tests. 
    Relevant Offense Bodyscans:
     Blunt: 31% Magical: 10%

    Sondayga:
    6361 health.
    Robes:
    Physical cutting: 57     Physical blunt: 43
    Relevant defensive bodyscans:
    Blunt: 12% Magical: 21%
    Here are my notes on how much damage was done each time, ranging from milder cases to cases that should do more damage: 
    No affs: 2840
    1  aff (faeriefire): 3435
    1  aff (crippled leg): 3395
    2  affs (faefire, bone): 4092
    3  affs (faeriefire, 2 bones): 4668

    75% mana: 2810
    0% mana: 2914
    0% mana, 1 aff (fae): 3613



    The trend was a 17% increase in base damage per additional aff stacked on. It appears that the last affliction increases the base damage by more than this, bringing my target to doing something like 99% of his health when he had all 5 afflictions present. However (As we know), that's not a possibility. 

     
    EDIT: It looks like the lesser spores just use the base damage value, boosted the minuscule amount by mana loss. Getting damage values around 2800 on Sondayga.
  • What is possible is for multiple Wildewood to start it in a room and run into a group and wipe them out still. You should still add area messages and maybe something like psyvamp where you can only be hit with 1 Glinshari in a certain amount of time (5-10 seconds or so).
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited February 2013
    Report 1047 is still a thing, I'm just reporting here for the sake of completeness. Gotta love jumpy responses.


    EDIT: And to note that it's impossible for a Wildewood to kill 1v1 now.
  • Confused though, I thought these abilities were effectively the same except for damage types and what boosts them?

     

    So is Glinshari acting in a manner different to the perceived norm of the adjuvant/spore/catalysts (a bug) or is this something that all of them have in common?

  • edited February 2013
    2840 out of 6361 health is 44%.

    For an enemy-list, delayed attack that can be stacked with multiple wildewood users, this looks pretty potent as is. With these numbers, 2 wildewood/aquachem/whatevertherestarecalled already stand as a very dangerous unit.

    Not viable 1v1? Well, that doesn't justify Glinshari/Aquoxitism/alltheotherspecsversion being OP'd for teams. The new numbers look like they are at a decent place for now, until more information about their performance via logs are had. I also didn't realise broken limbs could be stacked as part of the boostable affs, though I guess that should've been obvious in hindsight. In which case, it's not difficult at all to easily add 2 to 3 boostable affs to your Glinshari. (Edit: 3 well-timed glinshari are still going to be able to decimate pretty much the entire enemy team if it can be ninja'd in, so...)

    The only problem is keeping enemies in your room when they see the Glinshari coming.

  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods

    Sidd said:
    Jumpy responses like a Wildewood special report forum topic a few hours after the skillset is released? 

    Never too early to start discussion. 


    Broken limbs of the same type cannot be stacked to increase the damage. That is, having a broken arm and having two broken arms deal out the same damage. Having a broken arm and a broken leg, on the other hand, does count as two affs for boosting Glinshari. In other words, an effect that breaks random limbs (let's say.. 2), has a chance to break two legs or two arms, which only boosts the damage once, instead of twice. This means that my earlier analysis of the number of afflictions that can be stacked by shamanism needs to be dropped by one (two against a smart enemy), but the other numbers still hold true. You can stack a few of the afflictions if you are clever, in such a way that there is no time to cure them RIGHT before Glinshari hits. 

    The maximum number of afflictions you can reliably count on your enemy to have with Glinshari hitting is 4, as an ecologist with good timing (who is unhindered), and who has had a chance to set up bond sting and snakebane. At that level, I would be doing ~4200 damage to Sondayga, which is about 66% of his health, not enough to bring him into any kill range. This strategy already applies one broken leg, one broken arm, so having a lucky mountain hit or another method of breaking limbs added on would not increase the damage. The only thing that can increase this damage is the application of vertigo, which isn't a possibility. There is no way I have seen to get around this limit! 

    With the proposed changes, there isn't going to be a sneaky way to stack Glinshari spores, because that was an unfair and broken tactic. Regardless, having an ability that can be stacked when you have 2 or 3 members with the same skill, all using it at the same time, all of them hitting at once, when not a single member in that group is being hindered, and no members of the other group use the easy measures to avoid the attack isn't a fair reason to leave a skillset/archetype in the lurch every other instance. The same comparison can be made for any number of skills in group combos: 10 seconds can be a long time with three high-powered enemies attacking you with 10p worth of skills each.


  • Never too early to start discussions, you are so ridiculous. I make a valid comment and you retort 'jumpy response', yet it's never to early to have a discussion.

    Does your report address multiple Glinshari hits? Do you think a skill that does just under 50% is totally cool to stack in groups? Because the report I saw had nothing of the sort
  • What are the "easy measures to avoid the attack"? Running several rooms away?
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited February 2013
    I posted a big list of damage values from testing, and now it's gone, not sure what happened there.

    Shielding. A shield put up ~3 seconds before the Glinshari hits effectively kills the entire strategy. Teaching your beast to reflect has much the same effect! To maximize this, move one room away and shield, to make it harder to stack room effects! Once that's done, you've got 80 seconds of time minimum before the wildewood can persue their kill again, more likely to be closer 2 minutes or more. If shielding isn't your thing, use any lust effect within that ~4 second window just before it hits to bork up their strategy. 

    Why does this work? The way that Glinshari aff stacking works is that you hit just before the spore goes through to try and catch your opponent with those affs so that he/she can't cure them. For ecology, assuming you've set up bond sting properly and used snakebond, you can beastspit/shieldstun, and have your bond sting during that stunned time just before glinshari hits. This has the side effect of negating the stun from Glinshari, but without all 5 affs, that stun is shorter than our standard eq time (iirc), so its loss isn't a terrible tragedy

     If you do anything to disrupt their attacks to stack offenses in the final second before the spore hits, the Glinshari does minimal damage, not enough to endanger even upper-middle tier combatants. Any hinder works for this, including a web. Just web the wildewood ~3.5 seconds before Glinshari hits, and you've escaped the kill! Shielding has the same benefit, it'll take them ~2.5 seconds to nullify it away, during which you can either move (to escape the affs), or the danger will have already passed. Heck, CLIMB UP, CLING! To afflict you, the Wildewood will need to PERSPECTIVE UP, which incurs a greater eq loss than the balance loss on cling. Trigger them perspectiving up to climbing back down, and you've effectively dodged the bullet.

    So yes, easy measures. Two courses of action: 1) dodge the spore with lust/blind/reflection/shield/avoid/movement. 2) dodge the afflictions, by doing absoultly anything to make sure that right when Glinshari fires (or moderately before, in the case of Ecologists), the Wildewood is unable to attack you. This can be accomplished by all of the methods in point 1 (sans lust), or via any means of hindering you have available from class skills or common enchantments. I believe that a clever, well-versed opponent will always take this second tack, and will enjoy extreme success with it in avoiding Glinshari kills. If you get killed 1v1 by Glinshari, you're doing it very very wrong. (Not to mention that with the current damage, even with all four possible afflictions out of the five boosting affs, and you standing stock still doing nothing to avoid or resist, you're still not likely to be killed.)

    If anyone would like to take me on in the arena to see first hand the effectiveness of these ploys, and the damage my spores give you, hit me up any time I'm online. Any envoy can tell when any other envoy is online!
  • The situation we were discussing was group combat specifically. Both shielding and moving can be impractical, and certainly it's possible to pin people down so they die horrible deaths. I still support a temporary immunity to similar skills, or perhaps making it hit everyone-except-caster like old pollute.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    In a war games situation, faced by three Wildewood walking in and trying to obliterate an entire enemy team by dropping three glinshari spores (or the lesser spores) all at once, yes: Just move away. Once they've foolishly blown their big finisher, it's over, and you can commence fighting them. 

    The problem I have with immunity solutions is that it means that someone else's poorly executed technique can make someone immune to a perfect buildup and an otherwise perfectly executed kill. How long would this immunity have to be? 5 seconds, 10? In a situation where you really are pinned down, what difference will that make? 
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