(And before someone tells me they can't be killed in one hit, you just aren't smart enough. Go around and kill things on the floor around it until you get a World-shattering hit, then walk into the room and damageshift to that Mob. Tada! Guaranteed one hit kill).
Doesn't damage shift fade after a couple seconds?
Its 15 seconds, pretty sure.
And this tactic is very easily possible, and yes, I have abused it before.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
While it may seem unfair that dolphins can be protected and seawolves cannot, you can very easily raise 20 sea wolves in half an hour - conversely, dragon turtles take a fair amount of effort over an extended period of time (you have to scour the Inner Sea to find all the turtles, see if any are golden, if so find a shark to kill, then find that wandering, golden turtle again - every hour for quite a while).
searching out the dragon turtle again is not really an issue here since we have maps and pathfind to get right back to the location, they are not moving overly fast so it'd still be in the same area as it was when it was first found. on top of that. if someone knows they want to look for the golden dragonturtle they likely prepped and already have the shark needed on hand.
population does have its own issues when it comes to winning the sea battle. I just do not think any one quest should be an "I win" button and the other side has no chance because of mechanics. I still cannot think of any other quest that influences the sea battle as much as the cay even though you said there was another one. If it is the mutant/warrior kelpie quest, it is not an "I win" as stated before, at BEST it will postpone the sea battle one day.
I kind of wonder what the thought behind the cay being added to the game was. I have played for 8 years now, and I cannot remember in the past cay ever being an issue until I guess when it was added? what was the problem that it needed to be added to the game? I like it as a bashing area, stuff there is pretty good for exp, but how it effects the sea battle I just cannot get over.
The soft, hollow voice of Nocht, the Silent resounds within your mind as His words echo through the aether, "Congratulations, Arimisia. Your mastery of vermin cannot be disputed."
Nothing on Spectre Isle will enemy you to the SoD though. If you aren't enemied to Ladantine you can do anything you want there and not worry.
I am curious about the necklace quest. I know we have one to buff Ladantine up, he's still easily solo-able though. But I don't know of anything that can protect the sharks that Celest needs to make Dragon Turtles.
Being able to halt dragon turtle production would be more helpful than a stronger Ladantine who still dies and isn't any help if we can't kill dolphins
Edit:
I guess it would be easier for us rp wise to cull our own sharks than Celest killing cute cuddly dolphins but that's not something hard coded.
To note, the winner of the Sea Battle is determined by the number of dragon turtles versus the number of sea wolves. Kelpies, etc don't play into it (beyond the effects of the Carai Caroo quest, that do have an effect on Ladantine/Lanikai).
Like I said though, I really don't have a formed opinion on whether or not it's a problem. I think the real issue (as touched on by Phudmog) is the population disparity. Honestly, I don't think any of you genuinely want the Cay quest reset time to be reduced. It would just prove frustrating to both orgs when the objective becomes 'complete it or frustrate them until they can't'. Which would lead to calls demanding it be open PK (which have already started, even though on-prime areas are not and won't be open PK save for specific events), or enemy-able territory. And given there's no sapient population save the transmogrified souls of a Holy Celestine Empire project participants and they're invulnerable, that doesn't really make sense (or, for the organizations it would make sense - like the Kelpies - it would tilt it pretty unfairly in favour of Celest).
Kelpies just prevent dolphins/seawolves from being made, nothing out of an autowin button.
And... "complete it or frustrate them until they can't" already goes on, so not sure what you are arguing here. Just look at the Scent from this place:
Xena - behind a spiral stair - v20569
Shally - before a golden plinth - v20647
Sidd - amid patterns of shells - v20693
Kreaton - ascending seaside - v20648
Ryboi - uneven shoreline rounding a ruin - v20653
Luthian - sharp ascent in the shoreline - v20676
Iytha - sharp ascent in the shoreline - v20676
Xazlael - gentle cayside east of a sprawling ruin - v20670
Tridemon - alongside tousled shallows - v20691
Steingrim - radiant sands upon the cayside - v20669
Dynami - radiant sands upon the cayside - v20669
Or the conversation:
Grandmaster Ryboi D'Varden says, "You need more starfish though."
Canticle Iytha says, "And then there's the elementals."
Grandmaster Ryboi D'Varden says, "Oh they're influenced, the majority anyway."
Canticle Iytha says, "Or dead."
So I am pretty sure we are already way beyond the point that you think is going on.
There was a simple quest. Then it became overly complex and complicated, and boiled down to 6 pieces and 15 water elementals, which make or break the sea battle/epic quests for two organizations.
And there is something terribly wrong with that.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
My dream scenario of changing that will never happen
1. Remove all critical hit chances Ladantine and Lanikai
2. Changes to Cay:
Make Cay enemy territory to Kelpies/Inner Sea
Make crabs, otters and water elementals loyal to Kelpies/Inner Sea (crabs/otters form the talisman, talisman unleashes urn, which is required to weaken 15 elementals, if there is an enemy on Cay attempting the quest, all you have to do is follow the urn around and attack whatever elemental they are influencing, and you will never, ever, complete it)
Remove the 'Lanikai always dead' from the pro-Magnagoran version of Cay
Remove the kill dolphin/seawolf turns to mist, and instead give it a chance to give you a corpse or turn to mist if its set to one side
Move the entire Magnagoran side of the quest to Spectre Isle
3. The New quest on Spectre Isle:
Make crabs/otters/water elemental equivalents on spectre isle be loyal to ladantine
Require Magnagora to weaken 50 spectres to empower the talisman (celest weakens 50 spheres*) - this is the only way you can disrupt either side in this scenario without being in enemy territory,. In Cay's current state, you have more then one reset time to get to empower the talisman, so you should be able to get it. *Make the spheres on Cay killable, comparable to Spectres, but won't get you enemy status
Allow both quests to be in the process at the same time, a race to whomever completes it first before it resets. So, someone can be on Cay doing the quest while I'm on Spectre doing the quest, if I finish before them, their progress stops and the quest can't be completed until it resets.
Having a quest on the Sea of Despair side without some kind of supporting lore being developed would not make a heck of a lot of sense in my opinion, As it is, when you complete the quest a denizen spawns which gives a nice chunk of backstory as to how you are effectively completing their work. It also wouldn't make any sense to make the spheres killable since (once again) it specifically says that when they sought out Shakiniel's protection, it came in the most literal form, making them unable to be killed, unable to die but also unable to complete their work or leave the isle. - That being said, Magnagora have as many opportunities to thwart Celests attempts at doing the cay as we do in kind. We can kill the starfish, you guys can influence the spheres so we can't empower them. Either side can influence the Elementals, either side can steal cobalt pearls or talisman pieces.
Also making the crabs and otters enemy to Lanikai will likely never happen - simply because it would require Celest enemying themselves to one of their own key territories in order to do so (and if a magnagoran wanted to, they could easily use this as a trap of sorts: hang around the cay not doing anything, so that defenders will come out and start killing stuff to "stop" you - go kill Lanikai, thus keeping them stuck as enemies - Kill them with impunity - PROFIT. Simply wouldn't work.) Also being enemied to one of our key territories would not make sense - same as if Magnagora was to be enemied to the Sea of Despair.
I'd definitely love to see Lanikai and Ladantine changed so that they can no longer have critical hits done on them - Defending Lanikai is often implausible at best, impossible at worst - She takes maybe 4 hits from a demigod to kill, 1 hit if you get lucky and get a crushing crit or better - and if you do as was mentioned earlier and pre-shift a critical strike, then there is guaranteed no chance of defending her.
Never put passion before principle. Even if you win, you lose.
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
I forgot about the crabs/otters, because I thought of that in the 10 minutes I was farming crabs. I just think its pretty silly that two org's epic quests boil down to six pieces and fifteen elementals.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Come to think of it, does Magnagora actually need to set foot in the Inner Sea for any key parts of their epic quest (besides the cay), taking into consideration that Celest citizens need to do a full quest in the Sea of Despair (making the quest downright miserable if you happen to be enemied to Ladantine and he is not raised for you to get amnesty).
(Incidentally all I know is that part of their quest involves Marani, part involves the gorgogs)
Never put passion before principle. Even if you win, you lose.
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
it would make perfect sense adding more into the sea of despair, a LOT of lore happened, spectre island is old celest for christ sake! I for one would love to have more added to reveal more about the histories since really not all that much is written about it.
The soft, hollow voice of Nocht, the Silent resounds within your mind as His words echo through the aether, "Congratulations, Arimisia. Your mastery of vermin cannot be disputed."
Regardless of whether or not the sides are balanced, I think the whole thing is incredibly boring and repetitive and wish it wasn't so vital to the epic quest cycle.
it would make perfect sense adding more into the sea of despair, a LOT of lore happened, spectre island is old celest for christ sake! I for one would love to have more added to reveal more about the histories since really not all that much is written about it.
I'd be more inclined to agree to this if there was a directly matching/correlating effect that had a more significant impact on the Sea of Despair (for example while the seas are "cleansed" Ladantine can not be raised, all coffin fish disappear, thus making it impossible to start the quest, plus some kind of denizen spawning in the sea of despair that is hostile to Magnagora, to match the fact that while the inner sea is tainted all kelpies (including lanikai) currently vanish and lurkers start wandering the seas)
As far as I am aware, the cay being cleansed doesn't even stop Magnagora doing steps of their epic quest chain, it simply hinders their ability to raise the ship of the dead since it factors into the outcome of the sea battle. While the cay/inner sea is tainted, Celests epic quest pretty much grinds to a screeching halt since we can not light beacons - and if we can't light beacons, we can't work on later steps of the quest chain. (The tome of remembrance and Malacoda quests do not count towards your epic quest if you have not lit your sets of beacons prior. If you do either of the quests early, you have to do them once again after you have done your beacons)
Never put passion before principle. Even if you win, you lose.
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
it would make perfect sense adding more into the sea of despair, a LOT of lore happened, spectre island is old celest for christ sake! I for one would love to have more added to reveal more about the histories since really not all that much is written about it.
I'd be more inclined to agree to this if there was a directly matching/correlating effect that had a more significant impact on the Sea of Despair (for example while the seas are "cleansed" Ladantine can not be raised, all coffin fish disappear, thus making it impossible to start the quest, plus some kind of denizen spawning in the sea of despair that is hostile to Magnagora, to match the fact that while the inner sea is tainted all kelpies (including lanikai) currently vanish and lurkers start wandering the seas)
As far as I am aware, the cay being cleansed doesn't even stop Magnagora doing steps of their epic quest chain, it simply hinders their ability to raise the ship of the dead since it factors into the outcome of the sea battle. While the cay/inner sea is tainted, Celests epic quest pretty much grinds to a screeching halt since we can not light beacons - and if we can't light beacons, we can't work on later steps of the quest chain. (The tome of remembrance and Malacoda quests do not count towards your epic quest if you have not lit your sets of beacons prior. If you do either of the quests early, you have to do them once again after you have done your beacons)
you are wrong on this. First and foremost, the lurkers are there ONLY when Mag manages to get cay turned for them, so yes, your kelpie and lanikai poof too which has already been stated happens when we get the cay turned for us. The ship of the dead had nothing at all to do with that. Removing ladantine permanently until a condition is met, makes it harder on you all in the long run too. celest would naturally try and stop Mag from doing it and until it was done, we cannot kill Marilynth when you raise her.
this has become so frustrating to the point I am ready to campaign in Magnagora to stop trying to win and stop messing with it all together until something is done. Why should we continue to kill Marilynth when we are just going to lose again? Why should we raise ladantine, fight with celest to raise him even, and do it multiple times in the 2 or 3 hours it takes to down Marilynth through him. it is a lot of effort that it is getting harder and harder to justify doing, and in fact assists celest by doing it in the long run because we let them go through it and win again and we get to do it all over again.
The soft, hollow voice of Nocht, the Silent resounds within your mind as His words echo through the aether, "Congratulations, Arimisia. Your mastery of vermin cannot be disputed."
Clearly, the answer is to nerf the effect of the cay quest on the sea battle. That way, Magnagora no longer has a need to turn the cay to their side in order to ensure they don't lose the sea battle. When they no longer have to do it, the rest of the Celest epic gets griefed less.
I mean, there certainly will be jerks who will grief the cay in order to show Celest the middle finger anyway, but if you make it so that the sea battle can't be won just with the cay, neither side will feel obliged to keep the cay on their side 24/7. Those who only want the sea battle will know their efforts are better spent elsewhere. Then you can make/keep the cay more advantageous to the Celest side, because turning it Mag is effectively griefing Celest.
Alternatively, you can just do the opposite and make cay affect nothing but the sea battle. As it is, if I'm reading it right, the cay quest is already essentially the sea battle. Win it and you win, period. If that's the way the admin want the sea battle to be played, then just remove the effect of the cay quest on all other parts of the celest/mag epic chain. This way people can fight over the cay as a proxy for the result of the sea battle and then you can address how fair or unfair it is that the cay is itself in an area more advantageous for one side to defend/complete.
Also, while you can say 'Nothing on spectres enemies to Ladantine so you can just walk through protected', nothing on Cloadahi enemies to Kelpies so you can just walk through the Inner Seas, protected. So it seems like either both are perceived problems, or neither are. Particularly since the argument being made is Magnagora is forced to spend too much time in enemy territory for their epic quest versus Celest.
1: The stupid quote function is broken again -.-
2: I think the grief is that it's not just moving through the Inner Sea and the zap to kill abuse that people do in Cay without requiring a declare. It's also the first part on the isles where you hunt Merian and get enemied. AFAIK there's no Celest part where they have to quest on enemy territory.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
2: I think the grief is that it's not just moving through the Inner Sea and the zap to kill abuse that people do in Cay without requiring a declare. It's also the first part on the isles where you hunt Merian and get enemied. AFAIK there's no Celest part where they have to quest on enemy territory.
I think by 'the first part' you're referencing Nyalia/Gorgog quest? This is true, however the entirety of Celest's first quest (Spectres Isle) requires spending the entire time in Ladantine's territory (usually those individuals are enemies, as they've been working to setup the Marilynth quest). The majority of the second quest is spent off-plane (Malacoda's reflections), where there is no PK protection of any kind. Then the third quest is the Sea Battle.
So though the territories they perform it in do not enemy for taking part in the quest, they usually do spend large amounts of time in territory they are either an enemy in or are attackable.
To Silvanus, you noted the Carai quests just prevent dolphin/seawolf conversion. Wouldn't that more or less be an 'I win' button for Magnagora, whereas Celest has no such equivalent in that chain (they can only prevent the conversion, they still have to raise sea turtles, as opposed to Magnagora, who just needs to prevent the conversion of seawolves)? And I'm aware it's at 'that point' already, however my point was that such would become even more common place (ie every hour of the day). I remember the days the Sea Quest was considered a really big problem (I'm sure you do too), and I doubt anyone on our end wants it to return to the point where it's a constant contention 24/7 (moreso than it seems like it's become).
To Malarious (and Llandros, I think? I was confused by what you were referencing, there's been a lot said), while Spectres can be accessed via means other than the Sea of Despair, the isle is also property of Ladantine, and therefore enemies thereof are open PK.
I've started to lose track of what the actual complaint/problem is - the opening post (and subsequent posts by the author thereof) seemed to suggest the problem was that the quest could not be altered quickly enough. Conversely, others seem to think there's some imbalance in that dolphins can be protected and seawolves can't. I know Celest has voiced complaints about Lanikai and her ease of dying as compared to Ladantine, while she's integral to Celest's epic quest for every step save Spectres/Malacoda. My impression from Silvanus' is that he feels the importance of the quest has shifted from battling over turtles/dolphins/seawolves to fifteen elementals and some pieces of a staff (or something like that).
If someone wants to try to sum up what the problem(s) are, succinctly, that'd probably help a bit.
To Eventru: My impression from Silvanus' is that he feels the importance of the quest has shifted from battling over turtles/dolphins/seawolves to fifteen elementals and some pieces of a staff (or something like that).
1: the kelpies can be destroyed in (as Phudmog points out earlier in the thread) ~90 minutes since release. Doing the Joiya is just as easily stopped as Cay (easier actually, Jeitara dies quickly, or just run in and steal the medallions), so the only time it would truly be effective is a few hours before the sea battle, which anyone with a brain, will know, and easily stop, always, if it weren't for point 2-4 completely dominating everything.
2: If someone knows you are doing Cay. You will never, ever, ever complete it. You have to turn, push and move an urn around and influence 15 elementals, any person can follow you around and kick the elemental you are attempting to influence to distract it. If you kill the person that does it, they have 30 days of protection from you. All you have to do is follow the Urn around, and even if they are at 14 out of 15 elementals, they will never, ever complete it.
3. To release the urn, you need 6 pieces of a talisman, which is empowered by killing 50 starfish (easily killed) or influencing 60? spheres (easily influenced). Once you begin Cay, you have three hours to complete the three main parts (collecting/empowering the talisman, empowering the urn, setting the pearl in the puzzle). If you manage to complete the talisman, you still have to kill 50 starfish or influence 60ish spheres (there's only 50ish/60ish starfish/spheres). So just by killing one starfish or influencing one sphere, you most likely have put back the quest one hour, and knocked 33% off their time to complete it. (And to top it off, the last part of the quest, you have to kill 50 snakes in a maze)
4. Cay is on a 10-15 hour reset timer. It completely decides the sea battle. Once you are down, you will always be down.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
no one should be complaining about doing the spectre quest,
a novice can do that quest because there is no killing whatsoever involved in
it unless you want to kill the spectre after getting them to write n the tome.
As compared to Magnagora having to kill Merians which is something celest is
suppose to protect and also gives enemy status to the area. But this is not the
issue I wanted to bring up what so ever, it is not an issue as far as I am
concerned.
I don't know what else to say, maybe everything is fine and
it is just the lopsided playerbase that is the actual problem and due to that
the losing side is less desirable for players to continue on with so they move
off. If this is the case this whole thread can just be ignored entirely.
The soft, hollow voice of Nocht, the Silent resounds within your mind as His words echo through the aether, "Congratulations, Arimisia. Your mastery of vermin cannot be disputed."
I disagree with Malarious's assessment. I think it boils down to: 1. Fighting the Sea Battle by killing denizens/hiding quest items for Ladantine's resurrection ritual, the Cay, Joiya and Lanikai quests is very easy. 2. Fighting the Sea Battle by chasing other players out of the Inner Sea/Sea of Despair when they show up to kill Turtles/Sea Wolves is very difficult. 3. The Sea Battle is important enough to Celest/Magnagora that they cannot ignore it when it starts to get obnoxious to fight over it. 4. As a result of #1, #2 and #3, Celest/Magnagora fights the Sea Battle by disrupting quests (mostly the Cay quest and killing Ladantine/Lanikai). 5. Both sides are sick of fighting the Sea Battle, but are not willing to stop fighting, because if they do the other side will win and they will lose.
I have to say, I think it's awesome that one of the central conflicts in Lusternia is a war between zombie dolphins and turtles that are so badass they eat sharks. That should be the important part. :P
1.a. Cay is far too influential, which wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for points 1-4.
Otherwise, pretty much spot on.
I actually really like the Cay quest, doing the pearl maze puzzle part is my favorite part. I just dislike that its become so tediously annoying to try and even get it to that part, that it has sucked the fun out of most of the quest.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
I actually really like the Cay quest, doing the pearl maze puzzle part is my favorite part. I just dislike that its become so tediously annoying to try and even get it to that part, that it has sucked the fun out of most of the quest.
I would very much like to even see the end of the Cay quest. For the reasons previously stated, it is impossible to even get to the maze stage without a gem.
Celest has more people and are probably better organized especially since the cay quest wrecks their epic chain when it is turned to us. It's not surprising they have been coming out on top lately.
I like the conflict part an that we are fighting over it. It's just not a very fun fight to have. It's just a perma stale mate until one side logs off. It's gaming avenger protection and makes it a contest of who can be the most annoying.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Not by a large amount. I haven't done Seren's, but my understanding is
that our first and second is the "anti-quest" of eachother (the
different sides ofVersavir and Hifarae), while our thirds are on the Night/Moon bubbles.
It doesn't matter how many rooms you are in enemy territory for before reaching the cay. You can be zapped immediately and the declare carries through. I'm not even mag anymore and get zapped by Kelly sometimes as soon as I step out of limbo to go do the Aestra quest. A celest demi with spectacles (or well placed meld) can sit one room outside their city and trigger to zap everyone that enters the sea. The rest of celest on the cay can defend that person and fight with impunity. This is also why avenger status isn't dropped, because the avenger sees you as the aggressor for having been in enemy territory (counts as you having pre-auto-declared anyone who hit you while you were there).
Celest having to be on spectre for any other part of their epic really doesn't matter for this discussion. They can have someone get them temporary amnesty for that part and will not re-gain that status for anything they do for that portion of the quest, which is completely independent of the sea battle. Only one person is working on this at a time, so there should never be a problem with a line of people trying to get such amnesty.
Mags could try for amnesty with kelpies before going to do the cay, but the cay is directly related to the sea battle, and you are expected to kill turtles, dolphins, etc. as you work on the sea battle. Getting amnesty from lanikai before doing the cay and then immediately losing that amnesty doesn't make sense at all. Also, only one mag can get such amnesty an hour, making this an unrealistic tactic anyways.
Currently an unfair burden is placed on Magnagora because of the way these mechanics work. There is certainly more risk involved for the mag side. The time it takes to do a golden dragon turtle is offset by the ability to deny mags the dolphin to seawolf conversion with necklaces. Because it already has an offset it isn't really a fair way to justify the much greater risk mags must take to undergo the cay. Getting avengered is more than just dieing, and I think we all know how much it sucks. The fact the avenger can clearly be gamed to celest's advantage here is pretty lame, and is certainly outside the spirit of the mechanic.
Also, who the heck looks for a turtle and doesn't already have dead sharks in their hands??? Lack of planning doesn't constitute a legitimate hardship.
I doubt it will happen, but the fairest way to fix this without adding a non-inner sea route to cay is to add an additional sister quest in SoD. Both quests can still be done by both sides, one tuned to each counters, one tuned for an org and the other one not done gives same situation as normal. Both tuned to same org gives same situation as normal. This provides a way to counter the cay besides lolkilling starfish, and both orgs must take the same risks to guarantee full quest effect.
I doubt it will happen, but the fairest way to fix this without adding a non-inner sea route to cay is to add an additional sister quest in SoD. Both quests can still be done by both sides, one tuned to each counters, one tuned for an org and the other one not done gives same situation as normal. Both tuned to same org gives same situation as normal. This provides a way to counter the cay besides lolkilling starfish, and both orgs must take the same risks to guarantee full quest effect.
I simply can't see them implementing a quest in the sea of despair that affects an area that it is not even connected to, the whole premise behind the cay quest is that when doing the ritual correctly you are effectively finishing the work they started to protect the denizens of the inner sea. When doing the counter quest (pro-magnagora) you are twisting the ritual to serve your own ends, allowing you to taint the sea and give the mist lurkers the ability to roam the inner sea. The only way I can see such a proposal working is if they made the quest/s so that both the inner sea and the sea of despair were equally affected (For example If the seas are cleansed, then kelpies, etc roam both the inner sea and sea of despair, if the seas are tainted, lurkers roam in both areas - both areas retain their affiliations regardless of alignment)
(Incidentally is there anything in the sea of despair that is even remotely linked to the cay that would make such a new quest possible, short of creating an entire new island and shoehorning in fitting backstory?)
Never put passion before principle. Even if you win, you lose.
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
If there is a clear mechanical imbalance, "shoehorning in fitting backstory" is perfectly justified and should be seriously considered as a possible solution. The question here isn't what makes or does not make sense in terms of the current quests. The question here is, is there a mechanical imbalance in terms of the current quests? If there is, then discussion moves toward solution and brainstorming of ideas that fits the RP, if possible, and of ideas that change or adjust the RP if it can't be solved otherwise. If the admin are not convinced that there is a mechanical imbalance, then discussion stops, is all.
In otherwords, the RP "premise behind the cay quest" isn't a factor in whether or not things should be changed.
Adding a new quest in the SoD is not needed. There's exactly two valid complaints being made in this thread: 1. The stealing oysters & killing starfish tactics currently used to keep control of the Cay are annoying for both sides to have to deal with. 2. Zapping someone as they walk through the Inner Sea so you can PK them on the Cay is an outstanding issue with Avenger.
#1 is not easily resolved, but doing so involves changing how the Cay quest works, not adding new quests on top of it. #2 involves changes to Avenger, which is worth it's own thread.
Glom and Seren can mess up each others epic. It just doesn't happen much.
Glom could stop it by keeping Master Quettle constantly dead, or at least, dead at the right times of the month. But they don't. Tosha is a monastery that doesn't have much to do with either commune. Sure, the loboserens love Tosha. But who in Glom really cares?
Also, there isn't a visual/in your face thing that happens, like the sea battles. You give White Hart the fruit, he just goes 'Thanks, but I can't attack them cause the Drums of the Dead are too powerful'. There's nothing that gives them an incentive to stop us. If the Night Avatars are dead, sure, then there's a reason to keep us off the epic, but that doesn't happen much, if ever.
The only thing in which we might come into conflict directly is getting fae from Faethorn. And if you're smart, you can do that pretty easily.
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searching out the dragon turtle again is not really an issue here since we have maps and pathfind to get right back to the location, they are not moving overly fast so it'd still be in the same area as it was when it was first found. on top of that. if someone knows they want to look for the golden dragonturtle they likely prepped and already have the shark needed on hand.
population does have its own issues when it comes to winning the sea battle. I just do not think any one quest should be an "I win" button and the other side has no chance because of mechanics. I still cannot think of any other quest that influences the sea battle as much as the cay even though you said there was another one. If it is the mutant/warrior kelpie quest, it is not an "I win" as stated before, at BEST it will postpone the sea battle one day.
I kind of wonder what the thought behind the cay being added to the game was. I have played for 8 years now, and I cannot remember in the past cay ever being an issue until I guess when it was added? what was the problem that it needed to be added to the game? I like it as a bashing area, stuff there is pretty good for exp, but how it effects the sea battle I just cannot get over.
And there is something terribly wrong with that.
Also making the crabs and otters enemy to Lanikai will likely never happen - simply because it would require Celest enemying themselves to one of their own key territories in order to do so (and if a magnagoran wanted to, they could easily use this as a trap of sorts: hang around the cay not doing anything, so that defenders will come out and start killing stuff to "stop" you - go kill Lanikai, thus keeping them stuck as enemies - Kill them with impunity - PROFIT.
Simply wouldn't work.) Also being enemied to one of our key territories would not make sense - same as if Magnagora was to be enemied to the Sea of Despair.
I'd definitely love to see Lanikai and Ladantine changed so that they can no longer have critical hits done on them - Defending Lanikai is often implausible at best, impossible at worst - She takes maybe 4 hits from a demigod to kill, 1 hit if you get lucky and get a crushing crit or better - and if you do as was mentioned earlier and pre-shift a critical strike, then there is guaranteed no chance of defending her.
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
(Incidentally all I know is that part of their quest involves Marani, part involves the gorgogs)
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
As far as I am aware, the cay being cleansed doesn't even stop Magnagora doing steps of their epic quest chain, it simply hinders their ability to raise the ship of the dead since it factors into the outcome of the sea battle. While the cay/inner sea is tainted, Celests epic quest pretty much grinds to a screeching halt since we can not light beacons - and if we can't light beacons, we can't work on later steps of the quest chain. (The tome of remembrance and Malacoda quests do not count towards your epic quest if you have not lit your sets of beacons prior. If you do either of the quests early, you have to do them once again after you have done your beacons)
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
you are wrong on this. First and foremost, the lurkers are there ONLY when Mag manages to get cay turned for them, so yes, your kelpie and lanikai poof too which has already been stated happens when we get the cay turned for us. The ship of the dead had nothing at all to do with that. Removing ladantine permanently until a condition is met, makes it harder on you all in the long run too. celest would naturally try and stop Mag from doing it and until it was done, we cannot kill Marilynth when you raise her.
this has become so frustrating to the point I am ready to campaign in Magnagora to stop trying to win and stop messing with it all together until something is done. Why should we continue to kill Marilynth when we are just going to lose again? Why should we raise ladantine, fight with celest to raise him even, and do it multiple times in the 2 or 3 hours it takes to down Marilynth through him. it is a lot of effort that it is getting harder and harder to justify doing, and in fact assists celest by doing it in the long run because we let them go through it and win again and we get to do it all over again.
I mean, there certainly will be jerks who will grief the cay in order to show Celest the middle finger anyway, but if you make it so that the sea battle can't be won just with the cay, neither side will feel obliged to keep the cay on their side 24/7. Those who only want the sea battle will know their efforts are better spent elsewhere. Then you can make/keep the cay more advantageous to the Celest side, because turning it Mag is effectively griefing Celest.
Alternatively, you can just do the opposite and make cay affect nothing but the sea battle. As it is, if I'm reading it right, the cay quest is already essentially the sea battle. Win it and you win, period. If that's the way the admin want the sea battle to be played, then just remove the effect of the cay quest on all other parts of the celest/mag epic chain. This way people can fight over the cay as a proxy for the result of the sea battle and then you can address how fair or unfair it is that the cay is itself in an area more advantageous for one side to defend/complete.
Also, while you can say 'Nothing on spectres enemies to Ladantine so you can just walk through protected', nothing on Cloadahi enemies to Kelpies so you can just walk through the Inner Seas, protected. So it seems like either both are perceived problems, or neither are. Particularly since the argument being made is Magnagora is forced to spend too much time in enemy territory for their epic quest versus Celest.
2: I think the grief is that it's not just moving through the Inner Sea and the zap to kill abuse that people do in Cay without requiring a declare. It's also the first part on the isles where you hunt Merian and get enemied. AFAIK there's no Celest part where they have to quest on enemy territory.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
So though the territories they perform it in do not enemy for taking part in the quest, they usually do spend large amounts of time in territory they are either an enemy in or are attackable.
To Silvanus, you noted the Carai quests just prevent dolphin/seawolf conversion. Wouldn't that more or less be an 'I win' button for Magnagora, whereas Celest has no such equivalent in that chain (they can only prevent the conversion, they still have to raise sea turtles, as opposed to Magnagora, who just needs to prevent the conversion of seawolves)? And I'm aware it's at 'that point' already, however my point was that such would become even more common place (ie every hour of the day). I remember the days the Sea Quest was considered a really big problem (I'm sure you do too), and I doubt anyone on our end wants it to return to the point where it's a constant contention 24/7 (moreso than it seems like it's become).
To Malarious (and Llandros, I think? I was confused by what you were referencing, there's been a lot said), while Spectres can be accessed via means other than the Sea of Despair, the isle is also property of Ladantine, and therefore enemies thereof are open PK.
- Cay:
- Dolphins/Seawolves
- Ladantine/Lanikai
Do I about have that hammered out?
no one should be complaining about doing the spectre quest, a novice can do that quest because there is no killing whatsoever involved in it unless you want to kill the spectre after getting them to write n the tome. As compared to Magnagora having to kill Merians which is something celest is suppose to protect and also gives enemy status to the area. But this is not the issue I wanted to bring up what so ever, it is not an issue as far as I am concerned.
I don't know what else to say, maybe everything is fine and it is just the lopsided playerbase that is the actual problem and due to that the losing side is less desirable for players to continue on with so they move off. If this is the case this whole thread can just be ignored entirely.
1. Fighting the Sea Battle by killing denizens/hiding quest items for Ladantine's resurrection ritual, the Cay, Joiya and Lanikai quests is very easy.
2. Fighting the Sea Battle by chasing other players out of the Inner Sea/Sea of Despair when they show up to kill Turtles/Sea Wolves is very difficult.
3. The Sea Battle is important enough to Celest/Magnagora that they cannot ignore it when it starts to get obnoxious to fight over it.
4. As a result of #1, #2 and #3, Celest/Magnagora fights the Sea Battle by disrupting quests (mostly the Cay quest and killing Ladantine/Lanikai).
5. Both sides are sick of fighting the Sea Battle, but are not willing to stop fighting, because if they do the other side will win and they will lose.
Celest having to be on spectre for any other part of their epic really doesn't matter for this discussion. They can have someone get them temporary amnesty for that part and will not re-gain that status for anything they do for that portion of the quest, which is completely independent of the sea battle. Only one person is working on this at a time, so there should never be a problem with a line of people trying to get such amnesty.
Mags could try for amnesty with kelpies before going to do the cay, but the cay is directly related to the sea battle, and you are expected to kill turtles, dolphins, etc. as you work on the sea battle. Getting amnesty from lanikai before doing the cay and then immediately losing that amnesty doesn't make sense at all. Also, only one mag can get such amnesty an hour, making this an unrealistic tactic anyways.
Currently an unfair burden is placed on Magnagora because of the way these mechanics work. There is certainly more risk involved for the mag side. The time it takes to do a golden dragon turtle is offset by the ability to deny mags the dolphin to seawolf conversion with necklaces. Because it already has an offset it isn't really a fair way to justify the much greater risk mags must take to undergo the cay. Getting avengered is more than just dieing, and I think we all know how much it sucks. The fact the avenger can clearly be gamed to celest's advantage here is pretty lame, and is certainly outside the spirit of the mechanic.
Also, who the heck looks for a turtle and doesn't already have dead sharks in their hands??? Lack of planning doesn't constitute a legitimate hardship.
I doubt it will happen, but the fairest way to fix this without adding a non-inner sea route to cay is to add an additional sister quest in SoD. Both quests can still be done by both sides, one tuned to each counters, one tuned for an org and the other one not done gives same situation as normal. Both tuned to same org gives same situation as normal. This provides a way to counter the cay besides lolkilling starfish, and both orgs must take the same risks to guarantee full quest effect.
(Incidentally is there anything in the sea of despair that is even remotely linked to the cay that would make such a new quest possible, short of creating an entire new island and shoehorning in fitting backstory?)
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
In otherwords, the RP "premise behind the cay quest" isn't a factor in whether or not things should be changed.
1. The stealing oysters & killing starfish tactics currently used to keep control of the Cay are annoying for both sides to have to deal with.
2. Zapping someone as they walk through the Inner Sea so you can PK them on the Cay is an outstanding issue with Avenger.
#1 is not easily resolved, but doing so involves changing how the Cay quest works, not adding new quests on top of it. #2 involves changes to Avenger, which is worth it's own thread.
Glom could stop it by keeping Master Quettle constantly dead, or at least, dead at the right times of the month. But they don't. Tosha is a monastery that doesn't have much to do with either commune. Sure, the loboserens love Tosha. But who in Glom really cares?
Also, there isn't a visual/in your face thing that happens, like the sea battles. You give White Hart the fruit, he just goes 'Thanks, but I can't attack them cause the Drums of the Dead are too powerful'. There's nothing that gives them an incentive to stop us. If the Night Avatars are dead, sure, then there's a reason to keep us off the epic, but that doesn't happen much, if ever.
The only thing in which we might come into conflict directly is getting fae from Faethorn. And if you're smart, you can do that pretty easily.