Guild Clans

Estarra

In the past, guilds didn't own clans and we had made it that you can deed a clan to a guild and the Guild Administrator has control over it, including redeeding the clan.

Would like opinions on whether it should be impossible to deed clans back to individuals; rather that they permanently become guild property (no exceptions).

Shaddus

Yes, please. I certainly didn't realise you could undeed clans from orgs, and I've been around for a while. I'm sort of wondering how certain people learned you could do such things.

While in the Ninjakari, we had an incident where one of the guild leaders "purchased" one of the guild's clans and gave it to someone as a gift. It remained deeded to the guild for the longest time, and I thought it was permanently deeded.

Silvanus

I had 0 idea it can be undeeded as well.

Can manses be undeeded?

Editted: how about just adding a function that allows the three guild leaders to vote on releasing guild property?

Xenthos

Manses can be undeeded.

I've been asking for years for this 'feature' to be removed!

Right now I could steal 4k+ credits worth of aethership by transferring Ilosia to myself and undeeding it.  That's just wrong.

Enyalida

Yes, please.

Shuyin

I'd rather just make deeding to an org permanent myself, no switching back to a person. Add a confirmation that informs people too if you want.

If you're feeling productive, I'd also be fine with allowing you to switch the deeds from related orgs to other related orgs only. So Gaudiguch can give a clan to the Illuminati, etc.

Lavinya

It's unfortunate that it has paved the way for abuse, as with the recent issue in the Geomancers - one spiteful person can quite successfully run away with all the clans/cartels, which is more than a monetary loss for the guild, it's the loss of numerous scrolls and designs. Either remove the function, or make it impossible for one person to undeed the clans.

Viynain

The most straightforward action I'd like to be considered is that either deeding be made permanent or that all three guild leaders require permission inputted for an undeed to go through.

While the former will guarantee no theft, it stifles the possibility of guild to commune transfers (and vice versa), while the latter would enable transfers still, but is susceptible should all three guild leaders be corrupt.

And if all three of your leaders are corrupt, well, that might be a bigger problem than just theft.

Shaddus

I realise the  admin aren't going to just come out and announce their plans, but I wonder if Someone can give us a definitive answer on whether they plan on doing anything about Ghaliith's actions. The fact is, a lot of us have been donating gold to the Geomancers, and some of us are perfectly willing to donate clans/cartels to the Geomancers if we find out the clans they lost are permanently removed and not going to be returned via the admin.

Xenthos

I'd be fine with being able to undeed with a vote of all the leaders, but that's not really necessary.

What's important is that this change work for both clans and manses.  Manses are just as rough when stolen (if not more so).

Eventru

Xenthos said:

I'd be fine with being able to undeed with a vote of all the leaders, but that's not really necessary.

What's important is that this change work for both clans and manses.  Manses are just as rough when stolen (if not more so).

Well, the change would be to deeding in general, not 'just clans' or 'just manses'. It'd be the underlying functionality of deeding, so both would be affected.

Moi

Please do this:

Viynain said:

The most straightforward action I'd like to be considered is that either deeding be made permanent or that all three guild leaders require permission inputted for an undeed to go through.

While the former will guarantee no theft, it stifles the possibility of guild to commune transfers (and vice versa), while the latter would enable transfers still, but is susceptible should all three guild leaders be corrupt.

And if all three of your leaders are corrupt, well, that might be a bigger problem than just theft.

Luthian

I agree with the require-signatures-from-all-three-guildleaders approach. With that, there's little issue of some guy coming along and swiping everything.. At least, not without the consent of the other two ranking individuals. It would definitely prevent loss of gold, scrolls, things like that.

Morbo

The required permission from all guildleaders thing works for guilds, but what about orders?

Personally, I feel like permanently deeded clans/manses would not be great because Hallifax would have lost its best ship and several clans when Elostian went kapoot. And even though that is an extreme example, it is not unusual to see orders come in and out of dormancy along with their divine, and in those times of dormancy switching deeds from the order to the city.

I'd just say only the deed holder can re-deed (similar to a title in real life) would take care of most of this problem with little muss and fuss. There is still the potential for abuse, but a lot of us have known about this for a long time and never abused it. I don't think it's going to suddenly start now.

Eventru

Morbo said:

I'd just say only the deed holder can re-deed (similar to a title in real life) would take care of most of this problem with little muss and fuss. There is still the potential for abuse, but a lot of us have known about this for a long time and never abused it. I don't think it's going to suddenly start now.

This is more or less what happened (the deed holder, AKA the guild administrator, knew they were going to lose so stole all the guild clans).

Hadn't given thought that orders are different. Seems like the best approach is just to make them permanent. Saves a lot of headache trying to sort that kind of stuff out. If the parent org is deleted (a la Elostian's order), it'd probably be easiest to just remove the deeding on them.

Xazlael

I think Viynain's idea is a good one - a vote by the three guild leaders can undeed a clan/manse but otherwise the action is permanent. 

Maybe something similar should be considered about deeding things to Orders, families, cities etc. I am not entirely sure who has control over those when deeded though. 

Xenthos

Nobody actually has control over them; I imagine that being deeded makes it easier to issue the admin for transfer of, say, a family manse from an inactive holder (because it is deeded and thus the intent is there), but there is not a mechanical structure to transfer them as there is for guilds, cities, and communes.

While it would be nice to add that as privs for family head / an investable order power, I would prefer not to see that unless it is made impossible for a disgruntled individual to just waltz off with the combined work of many people over a period of years.

You simply should not be able to steal deeded clans and manses / aetherships. That is really the entire point in deeding, to make it accessible in perpetuity to that organization!

Eventru

Xenthos said:

Nobody actually has control over them; I imagine that being deeded makes it easier to issue the admin for transfer of, say, a family manse from an inactive holder (because it is deeded and thus the intent is there), but there is not a mechanical structure to transfer them as there is for guilds, cities, and communes.

While it would be nice to add that as privs for family head / an investable order power, I would prefer not to see that unless it is made impossible for a disgruntled individual to just waltz off with the combined work of many people over a period of years.

You simply should not be able to steal deeded clans and manses / aetherships. That is really the entire point in deeding, to make it accessible in perpetuity to that organization!

It is an investable order priv. And I think the Family Seat can, as well, for family deeded things.

Xenthos

If it is an investable priv, not all Gods know about it then (unless it's relatively new). And you might want to check into the family one, since I have heard numerous complaints about that subject; it may very well exist without the syntax being known, though?

Zvoltz

Xenthos said:

If it is an investable priv, not all Gods know about it then (unless it's relatively new). And you might want to check into the family one, since I have heard numerous complaints about that subject; it may very well exist without the syntax being known, though?

It's REPRESENT. The people who show up on the help file are the people who have it:

11.1.27 ZVOLTZ, THE ARCHITECT

       Keeper of the Archetype: Ushaara

Eventru

Xenthos said:

If it is an investable priv, not all Gods know about it then (unless it's relatively new). And you might want to check into the family one, since I have heard numerous complaints about that subject; it may very well exist without the syntax being known, though?

Represent

   - You serve as a representative of your Order.

   - SHRINE PRIVS (at your God's master shrine)

shrine privs

SHRINE LEDGER CLANS

   - List clans deeded to your order.

SHRINE LEDGER CLAN <clan>

   - List information about a clan deeded to your order.

SHRINE LEDGER CLAN <clan> ASSIGN <owner>

   - Transfer ownership of a clan deeded to your order.

SHRINE LEDGER MANSES

   - List manses deeded to your order.

SHRINE LEDGER MANSE <manse>

   - List information about a manse deeded to your order.

SHRINE LEDGER MANSE <manse> ASSIGN <owner>

   - Transfer ownership of a manse deeded to your order.

Xenthos

Yep, found it, thanks.

Quite useful!

What about families?

Eventru

Xenthos said:

Yep, found it, thanks.

Quite useful!

What about families?

From a quick run through of the code, it looks like only manses can be deeded to families. Ownership also cannot be changed by the family, but rather it's more or less used as a method of calculating honour for largest manse and largest ship. They serve no other purpose beyond that.

I'm not sure if we'll change that, but I do remember it being deliberate (I'm a bit vague on the details, as it's been a bit).

Karlach

The fact one person can essentially hijack a entire guild's value (or close enough to it) EVE Online style is an odd system.

If it has to be kept in in some form of feature, I'd have also have it be an agreed vote of all guild leaders. But personally I think once a clan or manse is deeded, it should just stick to the guild in question.


I'd also suggest an adjustable cap on gold/credit withdrawls within a 24 hour period to stop mass theft, reliant on an agreed vote over any proposal, but I'm not sure how feasible that is with some guilds and inactive leadership.

Lavinya

Even just having a second guild leader confirm the action to undeed would drastically reduce the ability to abuse the mechanic.

Enyalida

Yeah, or perhaps instead of a cap, a delay on it. If it's over a certain level, you only get the gold after a RL day, and any guildleader can cancel the withdrawal before then.

Karlach

Enyalida said:

Yeah, or perhaps instead of a cap, a delay on it. If it's over a certain level, you only get the gold after a RL day, and any guildleader can cancel the withdrawal before then.

This. If you're the only active leader in a guild it's not going to stop your embezzlement but for any real chance of theft this would block it dead.

Enyalida

It takes a while for the behind the scenes bank gnomes to prep all that gold for transporting to you, after all.

Qistrel

Dedding to family doesn't change owner, and the original owner can undeed. It's only for 'who has the biggest manse?'

Xenthos

Qistrel said:

Dedding to family doesn't change owner, and the original owner can undeed. It's only for 'who has the biggest manse?'

That's how deeding works... deeding something does not change owner, it gives the org the ability to assign a new owner at whim.

Whomever the current owner is (not original owner) can then undeed it, and that's the part that needs to change.

Luthian

I figured it would be best said here: massive kudos to Eventru, Raezon, and Iosai for sorting everything out. You guys are awesome, and I'd send you all some of my mother's homemade cookies if I had enough money to overnight a batch to each of the Godrealms. I hope my gratitude is enough.