Competitions (bashing, influencing, questing, etc.)

Sulaei

I realize this could be a very popular subject on one side of the coin, and very unpopular on the flip-side. But it seems pertinent enough to at least mention!

The recent weekly competitions have spurred these thoughts. Being a newer character in the game, and on the lower spectrum of levels, I've come to realize it's nearly impossible to keep up with Titans and Demigods in pretty much any and every competition out there. This is obviously due to the boost in stats that start with Titans and work their way up.

In order to even out the playing field, there really needs to be level categories like (1-60, 61-98,) <-- open to suggestions... then 99+. I realize that in order for this to happen Lusternia would have to hand out three times the credits, but they'd have a better chance of being distributed to players who don't have it all already. And, for all you Titans/Demi's out there, no I'm not saying you all have it all! Just that you're more likely to.

That aside, is it possible to implement something like this in the future? And, where bashing is concerned, maybe disabling crits to, again, even the playing field. After all, competing where the prize is credits is easier for those who can afford them if they have all the bells and whistles to give them an advantage.

Just food for thought. Thoughts?

Enyalida

Those already exist for normal hunting, point based challenges.

 The thing is that these monthly events aren't really intended to inject the huge number of credits a full blown contest does (a few thousand, at least). Therefore, no tiers! For the majority of players, this sort monthly event has similar winnings as any monthly event, a nice small hunk of credits for participating.

Sulaei

Ah, well it's good to know there are some in general. Though, that being the case, couldn't it just be incorporated into these ones too? The point still stands that even in these ones the ones that are typically going to come out ahead are going to be 99+. And even in a small competition, any prize is a good prize

Eventru

We do tiers for Great Hunts, yes.

I do tend to purse my lips a bit about 'evening the playing field' in events that are meant to reward the best bashers, best influencers, best debaters, etc, though. If they're meant to seek out and reward the best basher during the contest, is it really fair to handicap them? Is it really representative of such, once we start cutting away at their advantages?

Ah well.

Lerad

There is a difference between "evening the field" and "handicapping". Tiers based on levels is a great example of evening the fields, you compete with the people who have the same baseline stats as you do, WITHOUT reducing any of the benefits they invested into the field. This is largely due to the crits that come with levels. Doing things like removing crits will certainly be handicapping some players for others.

It all boils down to what the admin want with the competitions they create - do they want an actual competition everyone can take part in? If they do, they should do it great hunt style. In this case, monthly promotions don't seem to be an actual competition everyone can take part in for the "top" prize. It is geared, designed and tailored for the top tier bashers - everyone else has a chance to get their 5 bound credits, and that's all.

Nara

I agree with the sentiment shown, it would be great to get some more enthusiastic participation from the lower circle players, currently with a requirement of 1 million experience to just get the 5 credits it means that any newer characters have little to no chance of getting them - and they are the people that would probably appreciate the credits the most, since they can be put towards lessons to help them learn valuable skills to put them on an even remotely more even footing (yes I know 30 lessons is effectively a drop in the bucket but they add up)

Lothringen

I don't think the tiers necessarily help true novices, though. As far as I know, the credit rewards for Great Hunts are still considered OOC; therefore, I suspect a lot of more experienced players simply create alts to win the less competitive lower tiers, then transfer the winnings back to their main character.

I think this has come up before, and (as far as I know) wasn't changed. But it should be!

Sulaei

If the credits are bound, they couldn't be transferred. Problem solved on that note. I mean, even the 5 credits you get for getting the 1 mill experience are bound so...

Sulaei

And in response to Eventru, I understand a want to gear things for the best players... but does having money in real life make you the best player, or just someone fortunate enough to have money to make you the best geared for things like this? I think, in reality, saying something like "best player" should encompass people who are passionate about the game, not just those passionate with deep pockets.

Lothringen

Sulaei said:

If the credits are bound, they couldn't be transferred. Problem solved on that note. I mean, even the 5 credits you get for getting the 1 mill experience are bound so...

My point is, they aren't, and the admin have not wanted to change that in the past, so I dislike the idea of adding more tiers while it's still so easily to abuse them.

Otherwise, I'm all for it.

Lerad

Everything competitive in this game is disadvantageous to true newbies, nothing will change that. The most important resource in competitions is knowledge and experience, which you don't have by definition of being a true newbie. Experienced players will dominate rankings for most, if not all, competitions, and nothing's going to change that. Making the rewards from the tiered great hunts bound will help a lot, of course, something the admin could look into if they are really interested in helping said newbies participate and win.

Regardless, tiered competitions still even the playing field - whether or not you're a true newbie, or an experienced player using an alt, your characters still are in the same bracket, with all the crit chances and max health/mana of those brackets. If you're experienced, then you have an additional resource: your knowledge, that gives you an edge. That's every bit as valid as money.

Arguing the semantics of the word "best" is pretty pointless. It doesn't prove anything.

If anything, from a developer's point of view, monetary investment is more important than passion. If you do have enough money in real life to buy every single advantage you can buy with money, and are of equal skill as a player who doesn't, then you'll be better than he is. End of story. If you happen to have the "best" skill in the game, and also have the money to pour into it, then you'll be the "best" player. End of story.

Competitions indeed reward those who have money over those who only have passion. And there's nothing that can be done about it - this is the nature of the pay-for-perks game model.

Sulaei

Lothringen said:

Sulaei said:

If the credits are bound, they couldn't be transferred. Problem solved on that note. I mean, even the 5 credits you get for getting the 1 mill experience are bound so...

My point is, they aren't, and the admin have not wanted to change that in the past, so I dislike the idea of adding more tiers while it's still so easily to abuse them.

Otherwise, I'm all for it.

No I completely get that. They're bound elsewhere for that very reason, so I assumed they'd be bound here. Either way, it's a shame people abuse things like that. If you win a competition on one character, and it's supposed to be because that character is "the best" as it's been put, the credits ought to remain with "the best" character that won.

Cyndarin

The idea that all these competitions should be fair with a level playing field, while noble, is impossible and a waste of time.

 

If you remove crits, then it becomes a battle of damage types (aka divinus wins). Remove damage types and then you have a who has the most friends to help. Remove that and it's a newbie kick contest and who has the faster ping. No amount of watering down is going to fix the proposed problem.

 

FYI: pretty sure great hunt "get a million xp" credits are bound. I know they were for this last promotion.

 

I don't really understand the logic behind brand new players expecting to be able to compete with people who have invested in demigod, or even further, the handful of Ascendants who have invested substantially more. Dumbing things down to that extent doesn't help new players as much as it craps on players who have invested in what they have. Lusty gives a fair amount of free credits away. It'll take time, but there are players with piles of toys and they got all or most of them IG.

 

I think the true issue, as far as these bashing style events is the org to org disparity in skills and damage types. Divinus will win if divinus wants to win, and there isn't crap you can do about it. Everyone else is basically competing for 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc and hope the divinus users/ascendants destructioning icewynd get a computer virus.

Sulaei

Celina - This topic isn't about skills, as the subject seemed to shift to with your disagreements, it's just about the competitions in general. I agree with one thing, there's never going to be a 100% fair playing field. Now that we've agreed on that point, let's also agree that wasn't the point.

There is "everyone is even and we all make a campfire and sing songs holding hands" even, and there is "let's make it rationally level by at least breaking it up by likeness of levels that can hang with one another" even. Crits are icing on a cake here. Leave them in at this rate, but at least the same circle of levels will be getting about the same amount of the same types of criticals. But a level 50's critical hit!, compared to a Demigod's WORLD SHATTERING CRITICAL HITt!!!!!!!!! (<-- emphasis included for making a point) are a little different, and nowhere in the same ballgame. I mean you may as well put a toddler's softball team against the major leagues at that rate and somehow tell them to play the same game and see who wins. Wouldn't that be a sight, "Play ball!" ... "Dude, you just ran that kid over." 

But, to maybe change the understanding of said logic that you say you don't get, welcome to the IRE 1%. No new player IS expecting to compete with the 99+ crowd. That IS the point. Making tiers is hardly "dumbing things down" so much as making the competitions enjoyable for people who don't have a million hours to spend leveling due to having a job/family/life outside of Lusternia/endless finances/etc. (playing devil's advocate there, don't shoot the messenger)  Obviously everyone who plays Lusternia is playing it due to enjoyment (I hope), and the "end game" people would still be competing, just with one another (which is already what is happening) so really what's to get ruffled over by allowing other levels who are on-par to do the same thing?

Lerad

These weekly rankings are just not meant for that kind of large scale competition for all players. I would guess, as far as the admin are concerned, everyone is given 20 credits as long as they get 1 million points every week. That's the extent they're going to go for monthly promotions. Having prizes for placements is just them being generous.

Actual great hunts already do have tiered competitions, so if you're concerned about that, and since you have also acknowledged that removing crits is not a good solution, I don't think anything else needs to be done. Everyone's happy, aren't they? The field is as "level" as can be already.

Sulaei

Lerad said:

These weekly rankings are just not meant for that kind of large scale competition for all players. I would guess, as far as the admin are concerned, everyone is given 20 credits as long as they get 1 million points every week. That's the extent they're going to go for monthly promotions. Having prizes for placements is just them being generous.

If you look back at the comments already made, you'd see I wasn't aware of there being other competitions that already separated things. I've only been commenting in response to comments made after the fact.

Eventru

Sulaei said:

Lerad said:

These weekly rankings are just not meant for that kind of large scale competition for all players. I would guess, as far as the admin are concerned, everyone is given 20 credits as long as they get 1 million points every week. That's the extent they're going to go for monthly promotions. Having prizes for placements is just them being generous.

If you look back at the comments already made, you'd see I wasn't aware of there being other competitions that already separated things. I've only been commenting in response to comments made after the fact.

Don't stress too much, I think everyone recognizes you're new to Lusternia and aren't familiar. I think they're just trying to explain things. (Don't mind Celina, the more caustic and mean she gets, the more it means she likes you - when she starts shrieking in guttural, incomprehensible howls, it means she wants a hug)

I'm mildly curious, if anyone knows the answer - do other IRE games break their weekrank contests like this into tiers by level? I know most - if not all - of us do with Great Hunts. Honestly, I'm not sure it's ever been really considered to do tiers for weekranks.

Sulaei

Oh I'm not stressed, but thank you! I honestly do appreciate all the input. Some learning is better than no learning at all, even if opinions differ. 

Lerad

None of the other IRE games have tiered rankings for this month's promotions.

Morshoth

Speaking from a business side of things, I see why they wouldn't be split into the same tiers - giving away a bunch of what the game makes money on (3x what they normally give away) every week would be a lot.  Not to say it shouldn't/couldn't happen, but it makes sense.

Maybe if the prizes were split if there were tiers, or maybe if there were even only two tiers, then maybe it'd be a good middle ground.

Cyndarin

Sulaei said:

Celina - This topic isn't about skills, as the subject seemed to shift to with your disagreements, it's just about the competitions in general. I agree with one thing, there's never going to be a 100% fair playing field. Now that we've agreed on that point, let's also agree that wasn't the point.

There is "everyone is even and we all make a campfire and sing songs holding hands" even, and there is "let's make it rationally level by at least breaking it up by likeness of levels that can hang with one another" even. Crits are icing on a cake here. Leave them in at this rate, but at least the same circle of levels will be getting about the same amount of the same types of criticals. But a level 50's critical hit!, compared to a Demigod's WORLD SHATTERING CRITICAL HITt!!!!!!!!! (<-- emphasis included for making a point) are a little different, and nowhere in the same ballgame. I mean you may as well put a toddler's softball team against the major leagues at that rate and somehow tell them to play the same game and see who wins. Wouldn't that be a sight, "Play ball!" ... "Dude, you just ran that kid over." 

But, to maybe change the understanding of said logic that you say you don't get, welcome to the IRE 1%. No new player IS expecting to compete with the 99+ crowd. That IS the point. Making tiers is hardly "dumbing things down" so much as making the competitions enjoyable for people who don't have a million hours to spend leveling due to having a job/family/life outside of Lusternia/endless finances/etc. (playing devil's advocate there, don't shoot the messenger)  Obviously everyone who plays Lusternia is playing it due to enjoyment (I hope), and the "end game" people would still be competing, just with one another (which is already what is happening) so really what's to get ruffled over by allowing other levels who are on-par to do the same thing?

Sassy little thing, aren't you.

 

I'll break it down. The opportunity is there to make credits (for free) and work your way up to competing at the top end eventually. Only then you will find out that even at the top 99+ tier, it's still not all that competitive aside from a select few based on the issues I mentioned to you. Do we create brackets inside of brackets then? Divinus artie whores over here, excoro generic demigods with less than ideal races over here? Obviously, not, so why start at all. So now that we've established that you're not proposing a real solution to a somewhat abstract issue, we can come to an agreement that it's less about "demis/ascendants steamrolling lowbies" and more about "more opportunity for lowbies." Which I can at least understand, though don't necessarily agree for because of the following:

There is a ton of opportunity to get free credits in this game, and if you want to compete for top spots, then work your way to that top spot. Don't ask for the game to make more top spots. Don't water down a system that is balanced around the top end, or temporarily lower the ceiling people are competing at. Encourages bad things, and the rewards are pretty minute.

 

That being said, IRE wide greathunts are broken up by level brackets.

Karlach

I will make a point of stating that the person who came 2nd (or was it third?) during the first contest did so starting it in her 80s. She just finished it a Demigod because she worked like crazy.

Beyond the fact Demigod is ridiculously easy to get, what puts people apart in these contests are the hours involved in willing to participate. People who can play from work, have time off work, don't work and require little sleep to function have a clear advantage.

Looking at this week. It's a three horse race for first. 4-10 is anyone's ballgame, and you don't need to be a Demigod to place.

Lavinya

worked like crazy = having a superb system that makes all that hard work a lot more palatable, be realistic. There will always be a bias for those who have the better arties and systems, which generally means have put in the most finances and or have generous friends. It's not hard to endlessly loop the undervault for hours on end when your system does it for you, and you only have to be sitting watching it to avoid trouble.

These competitions aren't a competition of the best basher/influencer, it's a competition of the best set up, which explains why someone can go from 80 to demigod with a great system and still beat the demigods who theoretically have the advantage.

What's my point? I think I had one. Right, there's never going to be 'fair' or 'even playing field' in these comps, but at least there is the opportunity for reward if you can get the right perks!

Karlach

I'll object to that, I've had to do this walking by myself uphill both ways in the snow!

But in seriousness some people do have fully automated systems that allow them to remove hands from the keyboard and keep one eye on the screen. And yes there is an unfair advantage in that, but it's an issue that plagues the game as a whole.

From a personal PoV, trying to compete with those people for 18 hours at a time and fighting exhaustion to maintain some level of points upkeep to either stay in line or break them and make gains is hell. Remind me to never do one of these week longs again.

Majanishi

Yes the week longs are a bit stressful, but let me make a point about myself. Before the weekly contests started, I was at level 78 and stressed about ever leveling to demi. Now I'm 84 and moving quickly. The learning curve is a little steep but if you find the right person to help, then you gain a lot of horsepower.

This last contest (bashing) I managed to get top 20, and if I had had more time and better luck with bashing respawns I could have placed. All this at a level that really is easy to achieve quickly. One of my new characters (2 years in and played hardly at all) is already 50.

Granted I'm a warrior, so that biases my point a bit, but regardless.

Shuyin

The week long xp contests are a sucker's competition. Why work 1 week for 100 credits when you can work 3 days for 500 credits or 1 hour for 2000 credits, heh.

Glick

Lusternia already does a large amount of things for newbies: prizes/lessons just for logging in, influencing for those who don't have a system or like to fight, The fact is, they don't have to do any of those things.

Cern

Shuyin said:

The week long xp contests are a sucker's competition. Why work 1 week for 100 credits when you can work 3 days for 500 credits or 1 hour for 2000 credits, heh.

If I knew how to do that, I'd be dripping with bling. 

Qistrel

It's just an excuse to force myself to actually work on getting enough essence for SecondTradeskill. :P

Sulaei

Lots of valid points, even the snarky ones (though I admire your passion to make your opinions blatantly obvious Celina). I'm not trying to change the game on some catastrophic level. Hell, I'm not even trying to change the game in a way that would hurt anyone. Everyone's been a low level at some point, and with 5 games open in IRE I don't think 300 credits, split between 3 tiers, would break them. Quite the contrary, I think it'd be extra incentive to play. After all, wasn't that the point of the achievements, to make players at all stages of their gameplay feel like they were getting rewarded? I completely commend Lusternia for a great many things, inclusive of the competitions, role-play, events, etc. I'm not going to quit playing just because it's "not fair", and I'm sure other people won't either.

The point was simple: to ask a question. Nothing more, nothing less. I've learned about other competitions and that there are tiers for them, which is awesome. The week long ones as extra perks are pretty obviously for those with the most time, most artifacts, best system, and what not that everyone's named. Got it. That doesn't mean I'll stop asking questions about things I see a potentially good change for, or that I short anyone their own opinions. As I stated at the very start, the suggestion would be very popular among some (obviously the lower crowd) and not so popular among the higher crowd with all their uphill walking both ways in the snow without shoes thing.

For those of you who have gotten to Titan or higher, it's admirable. Good job. I'm right behind ya.

Majanishi

Shuyin said:

 or 1 hour for 2000 credits, heh.

Go on...