Chaos Event Megathread

IanirIanir Administrator, Moderator Posts: 540 Creator
edited January 20 in Common Grounds
Just going to set this up because there's obviously going to be some venting, some discussion, some rants, some admin hate, what have you. At this point, I've seen what you've all been saying in your clans, in envoys, what have you.

So, here's my view of admin perspective. We tried something new. You all complained that Ascension was stale, so we tried something new. We tested it - Obviously we didn't think everything through, and we screwed some things up.

In the end, we ended up having to make a decision. Either nullify the decision and redo the event, or call it. The decision to call it was based on two factors - the winner having veil up, and others being in the location with him at the end of the event.

We have fixed some of the locations being accessible to players. We will be changing the hamster to be whitelisted locations (the teleport actually used anywhere the hamster could go.)

You may choose to disagree with our decisions. You may choose to... I don't really even know anymore. That's fine. Do it here. Do not attack other players. Other than that, have at.
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Comments

  • KagatoKagato Auckland, New ZealandMember Posts: 1,240 Mythical
    edited January 20
    I personally feel that it should be nullified and redone, given that Lorina was unfortunate enough to be flung to an area that she was forced to drop the hamster in the final 3 minutes, then to rub salt in the wound, Tarken got teleported TWICE to areas that were mechanically impossible or unknown to mortals (I would have thought that the divine havens would be the FIRST place to be put on a blacklist as a no-jump area...).  Please do not interpret this as an attack against him because it is anything BUT that.  The silence from Avechna for pretty much the entire event and his disappearance without even announcing those who placed beyond the sealholder also put a bit of a dampener on the finish.
    Never put passion before principle.  Even if you win, you lose.

    If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

    If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
  • VersaleanVersalean Member Posts: 1,002 Transcendent
    edited January 20
    I just want to say that this is one of those situations where it might be worth taking a break before posting. Anything you really need to say will still be sayable tomorrow morning.

    ETA: For the removal of doubt, this is not a response to Kagato's perfectly reasonable and measured post.

    ETA: Or Maligorn's. Double-ninja'd.
  • MinkahmetMinkahmet Member Posts: 29 Apprentice
    Ianir said:
    Just going to set this up because there's obviously going to be some venting, some discussion, some rants, some admin hate, what have you. At this point, I've seen what you've all been saying in your clans, in envoys, what have you.

    So, here's my view of admin perspective. We tried something new. You all complained that Ascension was stale, so we tried something new. We tested it - Obviously we didn't think everything through, and we screwed some things up.

    In the end, we ended up having to make a decision. Either nullify the decision and redo the event, or call it. The decision to call it was based on two factors - the winner having veil up, and others being in the location with him at the end of the event.

    We have fixed some of the locations being accessible to players. We will be changing the hamster to be whitelisted locations (the teleport actually used anywhere the hamster could go.)

    You may choose to disagree with our decisions. You may choose to... I don't really even know anymore. That's fine. Do it here. Do not attack other players. Other than that, have at.


    I'm going to have to disagree with this, and with all due respect, mind you. Was this even tested prior to this? I'm highly doubting it was, and quite honestly, I do think this is very distasteful, as -all areas- should've been reviewed for this prior and fixed up so that there wouldn't be any reason for foul play. Also, going forward- I do believe the hamster needs to drop automatically upon leaving the prime.  This isn't some attack on Tarken, as I do congratulate him, its clearly the mechanics and the lack of checking and double-checking prior to running these. Unfortunately, there are clearly those who live to grief and cheat and they do this knowningly, and I'm highly certain the admins were watching this closely and there should've been immediate interfering to halt those issues, for a more quality form of play for everyone. 
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,012 Transcendent
    What "griefing or cheating that people are doing knowingly" are you talking about?  The initial post says nothing about cheating or griefing of any kind, simply that the hamster was teleporting people to areas that it shouldn't have (which obviously the person holding it has zero control over).  I mean, it sounds like there's a mechanics issue that needs fixing (and will be fixed), but I don't know what the grief-and-cheat you're speaking of is even referring to.
    image
  • KagatoKagato Auckland, New ZealandMember Posts: 1,240 Mythical
    Xenthos said:
    What "griefing or cheating that people are doing knowingly" are you talking about?  The initial post says nothing about cheating or griefing of any kind, simply that the hamster was teleporting people to areas that it shouldn't have (which obviously the person holding it has zero control over).  I mean, it sounds like there's a mechanics issue that needs fixing (and will be fixed), but I don't know what the grief-and-cheat you're speaking of is even referring to.
    Therein lies my entire gripe.  The error has been acknowledged, but the event should be run again, given that more than once people were flung into areas that caused them to automatically drop the hamster (me being the first one when I got flung into Rikenfriez village.  Chances are I would have been killed soon after anyway :p )

    I think that if the chaos teleport areas were more clearly defined so that certain areas were off-limits to hamster teleports, the event would have probably finished quite differently.
    Never put passion before principle.  Even if you win, you lose.

    If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

    If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
  • TaevyTaevy Member Posts: 3 Inept
    edited January 20
    These reasons aren't even that valid.

    Veil shouldn't count for anything. Malarious used veil for all of last years ascension and we still won. Seek completely elimintates veil. Veil shouldn't even be a factor because when he was booted to the room in that place, I was able to scry him, therefor he didn't even have veil up. The others in the location only happened because an individual was able to complete a teleport on Tarken. 

    The thing that killed it in the end was the fact he was in the Divine Havens room, which nobody had access to, for more than half of the final 3 minutes. He literally had the ending given to him by an RNG roll on a table that doesn't seem to have been revised very well (no offence to anyone here, I probably would have skipped over rooms if I made it myself).

    All Tarken had to do to stop us was to drop a monolith. 

    If they just redid another 10 minutes like they did two years ago, when Saoirse was holding it and dropped it with like 20 seconds to go, it would have been fine. Providing the hamster didn't get booted to places we couldn't acces. Like the Havens or the Solstice area.

    These reasons aren't really even that good. I don't see any reason why this decision, based on the two given reason, should be valid.
  • FalaeronFalaeron Jolteon Member Posts: 1,663 Transcendent
    Ianir said:

    The decision to call it was based on two factors - the winner having veil up, and others being in the location with him at the end of the event.
    Veil: Firstly, veil does have a counter in seek and that is why we knew he was in two non-accessible rooms. Secondly, even ignoring that, if you actually make decisions as major as this based on a single skill, don't you think it's time to actually think about whether or not that skill is too impactful in such situations?

    Others being with him: This could have easily been prevented by him through a myriad of different methods. We got in because we teleported in. He could have moved out in that time. Better yet, he could have dropped a monolith and there would have been no way mechanically for any other player to get to him.

    These decisions are yours to make, but at least give better reasons for them, and if you don't have any, just own up to it.
  • JaspetJaspet Member Posts: 59 Apprentice
    Kagato said:
    I think that if the chaos teleport areas were more clearly defined so that certain areas were off-limits to hamster teleports, the event would have probably finished quite differently.
    Possibly? Tarken grabbed the hamster from Taeyvn with just about 90 seconds remaining, who's to say what would have happened if he'd been able to run. He held it for quite a while during the middle with everyone chasing.
  • TaevyTaevy Member Posts: 3 Inept
    Jaspet said:
    Kagato said:
    I think that if the chaos teleport areas were more clearly defined so that certain areas were off-limits to hamster teleports, the event would have probably finished quite differently.
    Possibly? Tarken grabbed the hamster from Taeyvn with just about 90 seconds remaining, who's to say what would have happened if he'd been able to run. He held it for quite a while during the middle with everyone chasing.
    I lost it with four minutes remaining.
  • MinkahmetMinkahmet Member Posts: 29 Apprentice
    I said the admins weren't watching?  Might want to read that line again, I said exactly "I am sure the admins were watching" that does not equate to the admins -not- watching.  Also, I still believe that there were ample time prior to this, as in months ago. I do understand the lacking of coders as that's always been an issue with Lusternia,  and not faulting it there-but I'm of the belief it could've been done so. So-don't take my disagreement as an attack if that's how its coming off, but its not
  • KagatoKagato Auckland, New ZealandMember Posts: 1,240 Mythical
    edited January 20
    Jaspet said:
    Kagato said:
    I think that if the chaos teleport areas were more clearly defined so that certain areas were off-limits to hamster teleports, the event would have probably finished quite differently.
    Possibly? Tarken grabbed the hamster from Taeyvn with just about 90 seconds remaining, who's to say what would have happened if he'd been able to run. He held it for quite a while during the middle with everyone chasing.
    Tarken held it for the entirety of the final 3 minutes after Lorina dropped it.  First place he teleported to was Divine Havens, second place was that room, which as mentioned above, the only reason anyone was there with him was because they had managed to complete a teleport just before the timer ran out.
    Never put passion before principle.  Even if you win, you lose.

    If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

    If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
  • IanirIanir Administrator, Moderator Posts: 540 Creator
    Minkahmet said:
    I said the admins weren't watching?  Might want to read that line again, I said exactly "I am sure the admins were watching" that does not equate to the admins -not- watching.  Also, I still believe that there were ample time prior to this, as in months ago. I do understand the lacking of coders as that's always been an issue with Lusternia,  and not faulting it there-but I'm of the belief it could've been done so. So-don't take my disagreement as an attack if that's how its coming off, but its not
    Sorry, yeah, after rereading just now, I misread. Long week.

    I didn't take it as an attack really, just explaining. Sorry if I'm coming off as blunt.
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  • MinkahmetMinkahmet Member Posts: 29 Apprentice
    Thank you

  • SazSaz Member Posts: 133 Master
    edited January 20
    Karlach said:

    The solution has never been to redo

    That's not true, admins said that they had to decide between a redo and a pass. And the reasons that swayed their judgement are open to more controversy than the entire event itself. So if everyone gave up because Tarken was at a room he shouldn't be at and not teleported, was this going to be a redo?

    Will Veil be banned in next year's event? Will prismatic barriers?

    I don't care at all as to who wins this, just show me a glimpse of a "just" decision that doesn't absolutely gut everyone in the game you are running about participating in everything else that's left.
     "Oh the year was 453CE, how I wish I was in Serenwilde now... aletter of marque come from the regent to the scummiest aethership I ever seen, gods damn them all...I was told we'd cruise the void for auronidion and dust, we'd fire no turrets, shed no tears.. now I'm a broken man on a Hallifax tier, the last of Saz's privateers."

    -Kilian
  • KaimanahiKaimanahi The One True Queen Member Posts: 719 Transcendent
    I'll also note that the winner was actually standing in org-affiliated territory when he won. 
    image
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,863 Transcendent
    Whether they decided whether to or not, my point stands.

    A redo has never been the answer.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,791 Transcendent
    edited January 20
    I will say, delayed teleports was another surprise. In a challenge that has such a furiously fast tempo, I feel like this shouldn't have been sprung on us. If anything, teleports should've been made a bit faster, so people that are slower to chase or -whatever- can keep up. Participation by people that wanted to be in a supportive capacity (and in general) was really hindered.

    image
  • VersaleanVersalean Member Posts: 1,002 Transcendent
    @Ianir - why's it called a Megathread?
  • KagatoKagato Auckland, New ZealandMember Posts: 1,240 Mythical
    Versalean said:
    @Ianir - why's it called a Megathread?
    Because posts about the topic are not permitted in other threads.  I ninja'd Ianir earlier with a post in the tweets thread, he deleting it and saying to keep all chaos-related posts in here.
    Never put passion before principle.  Even if you win, you lose.

    If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

    If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
  • AnitaAnita Member Posts: 801 Transcendent
    edited January 20
    I enjoyed the event, I always love hamster events!

    Can it be requested that there be MORE hamsters though next time? :smiley:
  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 592 Gifted
    I agree with the admin decision on this. 

    Let's consider the other options:

    1) Redo the last few minutes.
    Most people held the hamster for over a minute, in some cases a few. Based ENTIRELY on the RNG, you may get places like inner sea or you may get dead ends like Shallamurine. There is no telling if you'd get really luck or not because of this. If Tarken had been thrown to SoD or Inner Sea, he would still have won. So from his perspective, he had good chances to win still when time was almost over. Is it unfair he got to safe zones? Yes, but Taevyn got to Night Market, which may or may not have been open and has no fast ways to get to. Should we take second place for him having gotten those points too?   Doing a sudden death stands to give an advantage to the first grabber, which EVERYONE would now know about. Usually, people lose track of when it gets dropped and people get it as a result of the chaos.  This is not what would happen in a redo, and it would not end up the same way. 

    2) Leave the results.
    This makes people unhappy because of the end.  RNG means you have no idea where Tark could have otherwise ended up.  The most rightful complaint here is having lost the hamster when thrown into a bad place. That is chaos, not good chaos, but chaos. I feel sorry for her the same way I felt sorry for myself when I lost the hamster when I hadn't moved (failed attempt to move in random direction).  There is no reason to believe the results would be significantly different if he had been thrown elsewhere.

    As for "was this tested". Yes, yes it was. We have been told this. "Then how did............".  I want to show you the peppermint hat. I want to give you 1 room in a temple in.. Morgfyre's realm. There is nowhere near as many rooms, but it will still likely take you FOREVER.  Even when you "randomly" move, you can end up in the same area. Ianir said there is nearly 30K rooms, so even if they tested it once a minute for 10 hours they would only see 600 rooms... and they have a chance to go to the same room, much less same area. Work was done, efforts made, and event was neat.  Something went wrong, but that is part of the thing.

    I understand people are not happy. They wanted their person to win, or they themselves to win. So did I!  This was a mistake as a result of not having happened in testing and not being on their mental list. Going to quest areas that can be locked (Solstice Court, Night Market), areas that dont exist, rooms that you shouldnt be in, etc are bad... but after all the work being put in, I do not expect that things might not be missed by people. I did not even know Night Market counted as prime until today, same for Solstice Court.

    So I understand the displeasure, but let's take a breath. 


  • TremulaTremula Banished Quasiroyal Member Posts: 2,645 Transcendent
    I know that for a while people have felt a little underwhelmed with Ascension, at least the past two years or so. I really hope that the original responses to this don't drive the Admin to feel like they can't/shouldn't experiment or change things around, I really did like the concept and hope that there are more surprises waiting for us in the other trials as well.
                          * * * WRACK AND ROLL AND DEATH AND PAIN * * *
                                         * * * LET'S FEEL THE FEAR OF DEATH AGAIN * * *
              * * * WE'LL KILL AND SLAUGHTER, EAT THE SLAIN * * *
      * * * IN RAVAGING WE'LL ENTERTAIN * * *

    Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 7,806 Transcendent
    I for one am utterly shocked that something was introduced into Lusternia that wasn't completely tested. Shocked. 


    That being said, it sounds like the admin have made a decision based on what they think is right, and I see no reason to complain about it. Rngsus smiles on us all differently, and this time, she smiled on Tarken. Congratulations to him, end of story.
    Bob Junior says, "I had a party hook onnce. Lost it iNsiDee of soMe buxsm dracnari maiden, I thiik."
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