Gnomish weapons, feedback and discussion.

KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
*Insert joke about a lack of surprise that I make a post about bashing stuff*

First off, I want to say I love the concept of these weapons, also the attack lines and descriptions are pretty awesome. However there are a couple of concerns with them that are standing between my dingbats and the game taking all of them.

The multi attack function of gears apparently does not overflow onto targets of the same syntax. What I mean by this is if you do not use all your gears to kill a target, the remaining gears will not hit something else with the same name.

For example, Bob is on astral, hunting bulls. He has bulls targeted (or astralbeast, ymmv) and three are in the room with him. He unleashes his supercharged 11 gear gnomish box of wonder and the first bull dies in 5 attacks. The remaining six attacks do not hit another bull, his balance has been consumed, and he takes no further action till he is back on balance again.

Meanwhile he is up there with his friend Ted. Ted does not have an awesome gnome pimpcane of doom, but he is a monk, and does three attacks a round. His first two punches are WORLD SHATTERINGly effective and the bull dies, leaving him with a kick, which instantly hits the next bull.

That level of overflow should also be granted on boxes.


The second problem is the mechanics of adding more gears. Each gear you add to the box, grants an extra attack, and a small amount of damage, but the overall damage is divided by the number of gears you have, and then split evenly across all active types.

So while you gain a bit of damage from adding a gear, it may be a damage type that your creature of choice is super resistant to, so not only is your attack portion that was doing effective damage reduced in total (due to now having a smaller share of the overall damage) your new portion does less damage due to resistances, and your overall attack is weaker despite your item being theoretically more powerful.

For example. Jim is hunting in the gutter. Jim has a gnomish clockwork nyancat of pew with two gears, divinus and cutting. Therefore the damage is split three ways 33% unblockable (the default) 33% divinus, 33% cutting. Jim decides he's going to murder lirangsha afterwards and wants to buy an excorable damage gear. However, for his current scenario zombies are super resistant to excorable, and his awesome divinus/cutting vulnerability hitting damage will go from 66% of the total to only 50%, while 25% of his attack will be almost entirely pointless, Jim decides not to purchase more gears as it would be a damage loss to his hunting.

My solution here is retain the multiple attack feature of gears, as well as the small damage increase per gear added, BUT, allow the box to do full damage (or 50% unblockable, 50% chosen if balance decrees) as any type of gear that the box is attuned to.

This encourages pimping your gnomish weapon out because of the bonus attacks and extra damage, even if you don't plan on using those damage types, ever.


These really are so close to "shut up and take my money dingbats" level, but need some adjustments making before they're worth buying. With the above recommendations they will be the "must have" bashing artifact of choice.

This won't kill off wonderwand and whips, as whips are cheaper than spending over 1000 dingbats, and wonderwands still do more single shot damage (and have other benefits) but it'll make them a very worthwhile investment for the would be hunter extraordinaire.

The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


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Comments

  • SteingrimSteingrim Member Posts: 1,154 Mythical
    edited May 2018
    First a PSA (edit: having a command for gnomeweapons would bypass all of this).

    The command to use the gnome weapons is a generic one ACTIVATE, meaning it will check your entire inventory, meaning it will match:

    beep beep toy, poteen spider and possibly mount: 966  A mechanical spider                  Utility             250db
    concealment, harvesting, mastery, and tailored gloves: 967  Mechanical lace gloves               Utility             250db
    chromapen: 968  A mechanical fountain pen            Utility             250db

    top hat container (maybe): 970  A mechanical tophat                  Utility             250db

    tailoring apron: 971  A mechanical apron                   Utility             250db

    (maybe manse cats, but not sure cat owners tent to kill those): 964  A mechanical cat                     Utility             250db

    (might be a problem for trackers, or those with tracker companions in the room): 965  A mechanical dog                     Utility             250db

    Note: spider, dog, and cat. It probably defaults to inventory over room. But I'm not buying one to test.


    This is how screwed I am: 972  Mechanical goggles                   Utility             250db

    You are wearing:
    "goggles29860"                a set of clockwork goggles
    "goggles160213"               a pair of aviator's goggles
    "goggles164389"               gnomish beer goggles
    "goggles203560"               chromatic sun goggles

    Which doesn't include pyrochem goggles.


    Not really aware of things which conflict with these:

    969  A mechanical clock                   Utility             250db
    962  A mechanical parasol                 Utility             250db
    963  A mechanical cane                    Utility             250db


    Post edited by Steingrim on
    You tell Wyrden Ravager Tarken, "Come to Gaudiguch. I'll give you the title of Grand Moth."
    Eyes peering skywards as he thinks, Ironbeard the Magnanimous says to Sksez, "Welll, on my gooD lis *hic* t, we have....Stei *hic* ng *hic* rim.U..Xypherv....Luu *hic* hghaigh *hic* hhe....Breandryn....."
  • SteingrimSteingrim Member Posts: 1,154 Mythical
    Warning: There's a couple of odd bugs that may or may not be part of the design.

    You can't use pliers to remove gearboxes (which would be nice for rp changing out weapons, plus more dingbat sales).

    Yet, parts of the system seems to think gearboxes are runes (or at least item attachments). Meaning you cannot tradein the weapons as the artifact system demands you to remove the gearboxes first.

    You cannot use the Artifact command to remove the gearboxes either.

    So no tradeins allowed for now.
    You tell Wyrden Ravager Tarken, "Come to Gaudiguch. I'll give you the title of Grand Moth."
    Eyes peering skywards as he thinks, Ironbeard the Magnanimous says to Sksez, "Welll, on my gooD lis *hic* t, we have....Stei *hic* ng *hic* rim.U..Xypherv....Luu *hic* hghaigh *hic* hhe....Breandryn....."
  • SteingrimSteingrim Member Posts: 1,154 Mythical
    Suggestions for more weapons.

    Mechanical Owl (you know 1981 demands it).

    Mechancial Claws 
    You tell Wyrden Ravager Tarken, "Come to Gaudiguch. I'll give you the title of Grand Moth."
    Eyes peering skywards as he thinks, Ironbeard the Magnanimous says to Sksez, "Welll, on my gooD lis *hic* t, we have....Stei *hic* ng *hic* rim.U..Xypherv....Luu *hic* hghaigh *hic* hhe....Breandryn....."
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 7,019 Transcendent
    I would think the splitting damage not flowing onto another target is a bug, was that bugged?  It was the entire point of the idea when presented (though implementation obviously changed a bit!).

    Steingrim: Can you GET GEARBOX FROM ITEM?  That is how the curio pieces that attach work; everything else that attaches I have tried, the pliers can remove (including aethergears).

    If you cannot take them out either, I would bug that too.
    image
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,416 Transcendent
    Karlach said:
    These really are so close to "shut up and take my money dingbats" level, but need some adjustments making before they're worth buying. With the above recommendations they will be the "must have" bashing artifact of choice.

    This won't kill off wonderwand and whips, as whips are cheaper than spending over 1000 dingbats, and wonderwands still do more single shot damage (and have other benefits) but it'll make them a very worthwhile investment for the would be hunter extraordinaire.
    I feel like possibly hitting damage resistance/immunity is the cost for the efficiency of getting overflow (which I'm told is a bug?)

    Convos are also making me want to confirm how the Rune of razing interacts with it.
    i.e if the attack hits a shield is it just the first attack that's reduced or all of them?
    If it's only the first then it reduces only that part of your damage where it impacts the full hit of the wand/whip, which is again efficiency.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    But you get overflow by buying select vulnerability gears.

    But then you're punished for making further investments, which is a bad business model. Buying things should reward, not penalise.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • BairlochBairloch Member Posts: 184 Adept
    Steingrim said:
    Suggestions for more weapons.

    Mechanical Owl (you know 1981 demands it).

    Mechancial Claws 
    I was thinking wristwatch, though that "slot" might not be something people want to give up.
    How about piercings? We've got lots of possibilities there... who cares if it's completely illogical! So are lace gloves and goggles! :P
  • VersaleanVersalean Member Posts: 1,109 Transcendent
    Worth pointing out that you can only put one of each damage type on the weapon, so not as if you can get the overflow whilst sticking to divinus, for example. 
  • SteingrimSteingrim Member Posts: 1,154 Mythical
    edited May 2018
    Xenthos said:

    Steingrim: Can you GET GEARBOX FROM ITEM?  That is how the curio pieces that attach work; everything else that attaches I have tried, the pliers can remove (including aethergears).

    If you cannot take them out either, I would bug that too.
    That does indeed work, thanks. I appended my ingame bug to include that is possible and we'll leave it to them to sort out if that is the way to want to keep things.

    [as an aside to the curios that attach, I find it hard to locate them in things. Guess I'll have to write aliases to keep track of what is on which, unless you have another nifty trick up your sleave?]
    You tell Wyrden Ravager Tarken, "Come to Gaudiguch. I'll give you the title of Grand Moth."
    Eyes peering skywards as he thinks, Ironbeard the Magnanimous says to Sksez, "Welll, on my gooD lis *hic* t, we have....Stei *hic* ng *hic* rim.U..Xypherv....Luu *hic* hghaigh *hic* hhe....Breandryn....."
  • SteingrimSteingrim Member Posts: 1,154 Mythical


    Saran said:

    Convos are also making me want to confirm how the Rune of razing interacts with it.
    i.e if the attack hits a shield is it just the first attack that's reduced or all of them?
    If it's only the first then it reduces only that part of your damage where it impacts the full hit of the wand/whip, which is again efficiency.


    attach Razing to goggles258812
    You cannot attach a Great Rune of Razing to mechanical goggles!


    Seems like a bug, so bugged.
    You tell Wyrden Ravager Tarken, "Come to Gaudiguch. I'll give you the title of Grand Moth."
    Eyes peering skywards as he thinks, Ironbeard the Magnanimous says to Sksez, "Welll, on my gooD lis *hic* t, we have....Stei *hic* ng *hic* rim.U..Xypherv....Luu *hic* hghaigh *hic* hhe....Breandryn....."
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    You should be able to wield a weapon with the razing rune on in one hand, and the gnomish weapon in the other?

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • NoiraNoira Member Posts: 11 Apprentice
    I don't know that I like the idea of multiple boxes overflowing to new mobs. Wouldn't you be able to clear out a wiccan's entourage with only an attack or two?
  • TremulaTremula Banished Quasiroyal Member Posts: 2,645 Transcendent
    ANNOUNCE NEWS #2822
    Date: 5/1/2018 at 17:42
    From: Estarra the Eternal
    To  : Everyone
    Subj: Gnome Weapon Update

    Ianir won't be available to for a few days.

    We know there are a few coding issues regarding gnome weapons, including detaching gearboxes from gnome weapons, inability to attach same damage type gearboxes, and damage overflow (right now leftover damage moves into damageshift regardless of whether or not you killed with a crit; we will look into moving the attack to the next mob with the same alias). While we'd like to resolve these issues immediately, we may have to wait for Ianir to get back so I hope you will be patient.
     
    Penned by My hand on the 5th of Estar, in the year 501 CE.
                          * * * WRACK AND ROLL AND DEATH AND PAIN * * *
                                         * * * LET'S FEEL THE FEAR OF DEATH AGAIN * * *
              * * * WE'LL KILL AND SLAUGHTER, EAT THE SLAIN * * *
      * * * IN RAVAGING WE'LL ENTERTAIN * * *

    Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    Noira said:
    I don't know that I like the idea of multiple boxes overflowing to new mobs. Wouldn't you be able to clear out a wiccan's entourage with only an attack or two?
    This could just as easily backfire with hilarious unintended results.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 7,019 Transcendent
    edited May 2018
    Steingrim said:
    Xenthos said:

    Steingrim: Can you GET GEARBOX FROM ITEM?  That is how the curio pieces that attach work; everything else that attaches I have tried, the pliers can remove (including aethergears).

    If you cannot take them out either, I would bug that too.
    That does indeed work, thanks. I appended my ingame bug to include that is possible and we'll leave it to them to sort out if that is the way to want to keep things.

    [as an aside to the curios that attach, I find it hard to locate them in things. Guess I'll have to write aliases to keep track of what is on which, unless you have another nifty trick up your sleave?]
    Jewellery curios show up on probe.

    The only trick I have for tailoring curios is ITEMLIST PRESTIGE (or maybe it is CLOTHING).  The red ribbons are on whatever is super terrible looking, and the others are on the things that look super spiffy.

    As to which is where of those... good luck!

    Edit: Assuming the GET command is not a bug, then you can just pull out whatever aethergear is super resisted and go on from there, which addresses that issue imo.
    image
  • SteingrimSteingrim Member Posts: 1,154 Mythical
    edited May 2018
    Xenthos said:
    Steingrim said:
    Xenthos said:

    Steingrim: Can you GET GEARBOX FROM ITEM?  That is how the curio pieces that attach work; everything else that attaches I have tried, the pliers can remove (including aethergears).

    If you cannot take them out either, I would bug that too.
    That does indeed work, thanks. I appended my ingame bug to include that is possible and we'll leave it to them to sort out if that is the way to want to keep things.

    [as an aside to the curios that attach, I find it hard to locate them in things. Guess I'll have to write aliases to keep track of what is on which, unless you have another nifty trick up your sleave?]
    Jewellery curios show up on probe.

    The only trick I have for tailoring curios is ITEMLIST PRESTIGE (or maybe it is CLOTHING).  The red ribbons are on whatever is super terrible looking, and the others are on the things that look super spiffy.

    As to which is where of those... good luck!

    Edit: Assuming the GET command is not a bug, then you can just pull out whatever aethergear is super resisted and go on from there, which addresses that issue imo.
    I just kinda struggle with it since I loan them out and they curios can return before the item. Guess I'll have to go with aliases. Thanks

    As to your edit. There was some funky stuff with gearboxes going into some voidy type spot and I didn't want to assume what might be responsible or if they'd just decide to move them to the rune system. There's a weird slight headache involved in that ARTIFACT in some sense sees them as runes and should you go to try to turn the item in, asks you to detach them. probably few will turn the weapons in, but currently, it might be asking for future issues on how to resolve.
    You tell Wyrden Ravager Tarken, "Come to Gaudiguch. I'll give you the title of Grand Moth."
    Eyes peering skywards as he thinks, Ironbeard the Magnanimous says to Sksez, "Welll, on my gooD lis *hic* t, we have....Stei *hic* ng *hic* rim.U..Xypherv....Luu *hic* hghaigh *hic* hhe....Breandryn....."
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 7,019 Transcendent
    I have a bug reported with that and my multitool too.  If I loan my multitool out everything inside it resets to me (and leaves the multitool).

    Would be really weird if gearboxes did that though.  Then again, I never thought that curios might... very annoying.
    image
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    I'm not entirely sure we should be discussing bugs this openly, for now report anything you have concerns about and hopefully Ianir won't be too bogged down when he returns in a few days.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • VersaleanVersalean Member Posts: 1,109 Transcendent
    Karlach said:
    I'm not entirely sure we should be discussing bugs this openly...
    W-why not?
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    Versalean said:
    Karlach said:
    I'm not entirely sure we should be discussing bugs this openly...
    W-why not?
    For the same reason we've always been discouraged from doing it, especially when one significantly game breaking one just got mentioned in here.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • VersaleanVersalean Member Posts: 1,109 Transcendent
    edited May 2018
    Genuinely confused :( ETA back on topic - I wonder if these things will improve the market in gold cookies
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 7,019 Transcendent
    Posting bugs is fine as long as it is not abusable.  That rule change happened ages ago.  If you can use it to generate billions of gold, don't post.  If things are behaving weirdly but does not actually break things though, it is okay.

    That multitool bug has been out there ever since the multitool was released (even got resolved once as "could not reproduce," so I reproduced it in an hour and rebugged).  It does not really break anything, it just irks me greatly.

    image
  • EstarraEstarra Administrator, Moderator Posts: 1,076 Creator
    Thanks for all the feedback! New gnome weapon ideas (owl?!) are welcome.
    We can look at an alternate verb besides ACTIVATE (no promises) but suggestions welcome there as well.
    I'm uncertain about the unblockable damage idea and would rather defer that to Ianir once he's back.
    I think you should be able to have multiple damage type gearboxes on the same weapon (still up to a max 9 total of course).

    image
    image
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    Estarra said:
    Thanks for all the feedback! New gnome weapon ideas (owl?!) are welcome.
    We can look at an alternate verb besides ACTIVATE (no promises) but suggestions welcome there as well.
    I'm uncertain about the unblockable damage idea and would rather defer that to Ianir once he's back.
    I think you should be able to have multiple damage type gearboxes on the same weapon (still up to a max 9 total of course).

    No problem, thanks for replying!

    The unblockable thing was just more a suggestion if you thought a 9 attack, all one damage type attack was too strong. As the base weapon is unblockable damage, it's a good neutral source.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 7,019 Transcendent
    Unblockable can't be buffed, though, so that's not really great.  Sure, can't resist it, but also means that you're lowering your damage (even universal doesn't affect unblockable-- hence it being unblockable).  Unless that changed just for the buff side of things?
    image
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 7,019 Transcendent
    edited May 2018
    Okay.  I'm scrounging Moi's quote from another thread:
    "gearbox formula is 925 + 25 per additional gear (max 9 gears) for a minimum of 925/3s and a maximum of 1150/3s
    wonderwand is 680 + 30 per additional gem (max 19 additional gems) for a minimum of 680/3s and a maximum of 1250/3s
    whips are a flat 950/3s"

    Wonderwands are not a 3 second balance.  Wonderwands are a 3.5 second balance.

    This means that wonderwands at 1250/3.5 = 357 DPS, and the new gearboxes (assuming the 3s balance is correct) are 1150/3 = 383 DPS.

    Can someone please verify the attack time of the gearboxes?  If truly 3s, I'm... feeling a bit thrown off by this, because not only are these trumping whips, they are trumping 20 crystal wonderwands on pure damage alone (not even counting splitting attacks).
    image
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,869 Transcendent
    Xenthos said:
    Unblockable can't be buffed, though, so that's not really great.  Sure, can't resist it, but also means that you're lowering your damage (even universal doesn't affect unblockable-- hence it being unblockable).  Unless that changed just for the buff side of things?
    Hence using it as a bargain tool if the admin think a 9 attack of one type is OP, make it 50/50 between damage type and unblockable.

    If they're fine with 100% of any type than great! But 50/50 would be better than what we have.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,681 Transcendent
    My only request is that this doesn't overpower wonderwands.
  • MrakMrak Member Posts: 232 Master
    Xenthos said:
    Steingrim said:
    Xenthos said:

    Steingrim: Can you GET GEARBOX FROM ITEM?  That is how the curio pieces that attach work; everything else that attaches I have tried, the pliers can remove (including aethergears).

    If you cannot take them out either, I would bug that too.
    That does indeed work, thanks. I appended my ingame bug to include that is possible and we'll leave it to them to sort out if that is the way to want to keep things.

    [as an aside to the curios that attach, I find it hard to locate them in things. Guess I'll have to write aliases to keep track of what is on which, unless you have another nifty trick up your sleave?]
    Jewellery curios show up on probe.

    The only trick I have for tailoring curios is ITEMLIST PRESTIGE (or maybe it is CLOTHING).  The red ribbons are on whatever is super terrible looking, and the others are on the things that look super spiffy.

    As to which is where of those... good luck!

    Edit: Assuming the GET command is not a bug, then you can just pull out whatever aethergear is super resisted and go on from there, which addresses that issue imo.

    10800h, 12186m, 12300e, 10p, BE, B, sSi 0 0 09:26:03:977 curio show complete 295453
    ******************************[ A PINK BOW ]*******************************

                             ID: 295453
                      Curio Set: Pink Bow
                           Part: Completed
                     Collection: Redbows
                           Type: Magic Bows
                          Power: None
                       Location: inside of "hat220489"

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 7,019 Transcendent
    Oh, neat!  That's certainly useful.
    image
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