Estarra and Orael Meeting 21/10/28

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Comments

  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,443 Transcendent
    edited October 2018
    Kalnid said:
    Saran said:
    A way to bridge that gap could be for some more official "how tos" and the like. Maybe some thing where you can look up any potential kit and get a basic thing like...
    Historically that's been an org pvp clan sort of thing to do. Mag's got basic stuff in the city's, and some more specific - but more outdated, miss u Silvanus - stuff for nihilists specifically in the old nihilist combat clan.
    Yeah, my issue with that methodology is the gaps that it leaves.

    From hops around the old guilds there was a massive difference in what the different clans would offer from lots of info including scripts for managing stuff down to basically nothing. This was particularly bad for certain kits given a lack of interest in them and at one point I wasn't even able to get help with what I should be doing with a kit from anyone in the alliance at the time.

    Orael said:
    Right, that kind of stuff I think is ultimately up to the players to sort out. I don't think the admin should be telling you how to play your class because the admin don't participate in the day to day stuff so those that are familiar with the more nuances of combat should be the ones developing those kind of how to's.  Again, I think there's a significant difference between explaining how a skill works vs explaining how a skill is used. I think us as admin should be responsible for explaining how something works via AB's and HELP files, where the players should be explaining how to use a skill via CHELP, GHELP and CLHELPS or books or whatever.
    I think there's a third thing which is how the kit is intended to work which is more what I'm getting at.

    Relying on players to create even that basic level of info about a class also pretty clearly doesn't work because I've run into this issue pretty regularly over my time in the game, such as in the above example.
    The difficulty I've had has made it seem that there weren't any players that had actually figured out the intention of a kit.

    Also it relies on someone with the intersection of interests in combat and actively passing on that knowledge (writing stuff down as opposed to happy to answer questions), and if the game is in decline that's only going to get harder when it hasn't been reliably happening when the population was higher.


    edit: Just to keep it clear, I think the admin provided info about classes needs to be increased to a point where player shared info takes over.
    Such as how your class deals with other classes and more skillful use of your abilities (like timing your fae with sending an order and a doublewhammy with the old MD example or offsetting a demesne effect)
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 478 Creator
    Saran said:

    I think there's a third thing which is how the kit is intended to work which is more what I'm getting at.


     Except that we don't want to box people in to using a kit a specific way. We want to leave it open so people can experiment, test and learn, try different things and really see what they can accomplish with any given kit. Shoehorning something into working a specific way only takes away from people's abilities to expand and really learn the nuances of a kit. 

     If you've run into issues with information on how to use a kit, I would encourage you to test things out, ask me questions on how things work and really dive in so you can provide that information for others. 
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,443 Transcendent
    Orael said:
    Saran said:
    I think there's a third thing which is how the kit is intended to work which is more what I'm getting at.


     Except that we don't want to box people in to using a kit a specific way. We want to leave it open so people can experiment, test and learn, try different things and really see what they can accomplish with any given kit. Shoehorning something into working a specific way only takes away from people's abilities to expand and really learn the nuances of a kit. 

     If you've run into issues with information on how to use a kit, I would encourage you to test things out, ask me questions on how things work and really dive in so you can provide that information for others. 

    Being honest, when I couldn't find anyone who could fill me in on how my kit was meant to work I eventually gave up and it lead to the impression that the kit didn't really have even one way which it actually worked out. (WW/Shaman was that particular experience, I'm currently Cav/Tracker purely to make questing easier) 

    I've tried a few times over my years here, but I just gave up on it altogether and if I want to do PvP I go to other games. At the end of the day, this is just sharing my experiences, what kept me from diving into combat here even though I enjoy pvp in other games.
  • ArkhArkh Member Posts: 39 Apprentice
    edited October 2018
    I think what @Saran is getting at is that all archetypes should have at least one clear kill route, and this is the kill route that should be made apparent. For example: (disclaimer, I haven't actually PVP'd in Lusternia in a long time) mana drain into toad for wiccans. Build tempinsanity into illuminate for Illuminati. Stack aurics into dchord for bards.

    This doesn't 'box in' players into one type of play, it just adds a baseline. Tarot wiccans/guaridans can still try for hinder into death fling. Bards can still stick undeaf into deathsong.
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 478 Creator
    edited October 2018
    Arkh said:
    I think what @Saran is getting at is that all archetypes should have at least one clear kill route, and this is the kill route that should be made apparent. For example: (disclaimer, I haven't actually PVP'd in Lusternia in a long time) mana drain into toad for wiccans. Build tempinsanity into illuminate for Illuminati. Stack aurics into dchord for bards.

    This doesn't 'box in' players into one type of play, it just adds a baseline. Tarot wiccans/guaridans can still try for hinder into death fling. Bards can still stick undeaf into deathsong.
    Maybe I'm just not understanding because I think that baseline is already the case. The AB's and the helpfiles explain what skills do and how they work. For instance, paraphrashing, the AB for toad states that if performed on someone under 50% mana, they will turn into a toad and you can STOMP TOAD to squash it. The AB for illuminate states that if someone is at massive temp-insanity and you have a truename, you can illuminate them, instantly killing them. The AB for dchord explains that it does big damage and stun based on the number of aurics. The AB's for WW states that their big damage bomb does increased damage based on having certain afflictions.

    This information is explained. What's not explained is the nuance and strategies you need to employ to get to <50% mana, or massive temp-insanity, or sticking the aurics. That's where I think the players should come in, test, experiment and discover. We explain the tools and what they do, players figure out how they're used.

    Again, maybe I'm just not understanding the intent here or maybe we just fundamentally disagree on the line, but I believe we should be providing players with enough information so they know how their skills work. If you find an AB or a helpfile that doesn't sufficiently explain how something works, please ABBUG or HELPEDIT and we can get that fixed. 
    Post edited by Orael on
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,443 Transcendent
    edited October 2018
    Orael said:
    Again, maybe I'm just not understanding the intent here or maybe we just fundamentally disagree on the line, but I believe we should be providing players with enough information so they know how their skills work. If you find an AB or a helpfile that doesn't sufficiently explain how something works, please ABBUG or HELPEDIT and we can get that fixed. 
    I think it's that we disagree on the line, ultimately the question was about why people give up on combat, my response is that it's too complex on top of the line for how much info the admin give being too low for some players. (As an invested player I gave up and switched around to try something else, I imagine the story might be different for a new player who's just dropped money into a kit that they thought looked cool)

    Which is then exacerbated where kits aren't popular or just haven't attracted the interest of someone who'll go through and document strategies for other players to learn. In theory, there's probably some link between how hard a kit is to learn (or how ineffective it is) and a lack of guides.


    Like, for WW/Shaman yeah I see Glinshari. When I was trying things out I had someone standing in the arena just with their curing system on, I'd be able to damage them down with it. But that was basically it, converting that to an actual kill with d-trance, gore, or just damage was just not something that I could work out or anyone could clue me in on.

    It's also just too much personal effort when I could just go to other games and have more positive experiences more easily with far less time committed to succeed on the entry level.

    edit: The lack of interest is probably also increased because, as seems to be a recurring comment, I wasn't playing lusternia to pvp. I was here to do other things and pvp was something I was learning because I wanted to be able to try to defend when we were being raided and some other reasons which weren't super positive incentives.
    Post edited by Saran on
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 478 Creator
    I think the thing is I ultimately agree with you. It would be good for those players that don't want to go through the time of theorycrafting and experimenting to ensure we had guides for every class. That could certainly be a goal we move towards but at this point in time, it's not a priority to make happen outside of pushing players to take it on themselves to not only experiment and figure it out, but also write up something that others can use.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,443 Transcendent
    Orael said:
    I think the thing is I ultimately agree with you. It would be good for those players that don't want to go through the time of theorycrafting and experimenting to ensure we had guides for every class. That could certainly be a goal we move towards but at this point in time, it's not a priority to make happen outside of pushing players to take it on themselves to not only experiment and figure it out, but also write up something that others can use.
    The wiki might work?

    You could create a page for each class, create links to each kit, people with edit access could then put up guides. 

    Talk pages would enable players to hash out issues, templates are possible for flagging out of date guides, it moves to a public ooc system so contributors can be from anywhere, and there's a visibility that might encourage some people to contribute. (or maybe there's a template for a good guide and once verified maybe there's a credit reward)
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 478 Creator
    Saran said:
    Orael said:
    I think the thing is I ultimately agree with you. It would be good for those players that don't want to go through the time of theorycrafting and experimenting to ensure we had guides for every class. That could certainly be a goal we move towards but at this point in time, it's not a priority to make happen outside of pushing players to take it on themselves to not only experiment and figure it out, but also write up something that others can use.
    The wiki might work?

    You could create a page for each class, create links to each kit, people with edit access could then put up guides. 

    Talk pages would enable players to hash out issues, templates are possible for flagging out of date guides, it moves to a public ooc system so contributors can be from anywhere, and there's a visibility that might encourage some people to contribute. (or maybe there's a template for a good guide and once verified maybe there's a credit reward)
    If it's something that players are willing to do in game, why would players be willing to do it out of game? There's nothing stopping people from contributing OOCly or discussing it with anyone. You yourself said you couldn't get anyone in your alliance to help you. I think our time is better spent elsewhere at this moment. That could change in the future though.
  • BairlochBairloch Member Posts: 184 Adept
    I am not capable of contributing to this effort, I don't know enough. But to your question of "If it's something that players are willing to do in game, why would players be willing to do it out of game?", I might have an answer.

    Because then it is available out-of-game.

    There's plenty of times (work, watching the kids, etc.) when I can't log into the game, but I can spare a few minutes to peruse a wiki. Having this done out of game means I could reference it for strategical musings whenever and wherever on my phone.

    Now, that's not saying I wouldn't want it in-game as well, of course, but I'm of the opinion that all informational resources should be mirrored in and out of game. It's a big help to folks who can't log in but still have Lusternia on the brain.
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 478 Creator
    Let me put it another way - the wiki has been available for players to edit for quite some time. It just requires asking for permission to become an editor.

    If people want to put up wiki pages to do this, I'm all for it. 

    They haven't though just as it's being said they haven't in game.  It's already available.

    If anyone wants access to edit the wiki to take care of this, just ask and I'll work on getting you access.
  • DysDys Member Posts: 709 Fabled
    I've got a document of Illuminati skill info that I'm transferring to Gaudi's combat clan. We can coordinate adding similar for the other classes.
  • VionneVionne Member Posts: 11 Novice
    Historically a big reason I haven't been interested in PvP in IRE games is, frankly, the attitude PVPers have. It encourages a toxicity that I don't find pleasant to deal with at all. 
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,443 Transcendent
    Orael said:
    Let me put it another way - the wiki has been available for players to edit for quite some time. It just requires asking for permission to become an editor.

    If people want to put up wiki pages to do this, I'm all for it. 

    They haven't though just as it's being said they haven't in game.  It's already available.

    If anyone wants access to edit the wiki to take care of this, just ask and I'll work on getting you access.
    One reason could be that it doesn't seem like it's what the wiki is for right now? The list of things that it is don't lend themselves to the assumption that this would be okay, the name being "The Archives of Lusternian Lore" further supports the assumption.

    Orael said:
    You yourself said you couldn't get anyone in your alliance to help you. 

    Yes, where the expectation is that I should be able to get help from other players, I couldn't get help from that alliance to use a kit I had paid for through credits to lessons, because of that I have an unresolved negative experience as that particular kit is probably my thematic favourite in the game. Switching to other classes doesn't actually super help here because it's more money to try to see if something else is fun and the motivation isn't great.

    The lack of incentive for other players to help is why I suggested offering rewards to players who do spend their time building this out.

    Vionne said:
    Historically a big reason I haven't been interested in PvP in IRE games is, frankly, the attitude PVPers have. It encourages a toxicity that I don't find pleasant to deal with at all. 
    One of my reasons for pushing myself to try was this actually, doing something I'm not interested in to try to stop people directing their toxicity at me for being a non-com which, at least for me, isn't a super great motivation.
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