Upcoming System: Timequakes!

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  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    Again, if you feel the Nature project isn't worth your guild's time or effort, we have four options. The other four powers in the Nature project are extremely good on their own and are more than worth their weight in why you should choose it. I didn't want to design level 5 powers that were "must haves" or altered PK, at least much, so that these choices could be made based on the merits of the other powers. If Beauty vibes with you better for all the crafting love, then pursue.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    Lycidas said:
    Nature - It helps those not of the communes to be able to help plants, as well as strip harvesting then immediately fixing the entire area as if nothing went wrong. Not sure how desirable it is for everyone else, since I can't speak for them, but I know I'd find it quite useful.
    It's your own words really, if it's not really useful to communes then that means communes realistically only have three options which then fill all of their slots.
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  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    How is it not useful for communes? You're telling me you'd rather painstakingly fix each and every strip harvest manually? Even if you don't use it to fix stripharvests, it still grants rain and watering can to the ENTIRE area. It is useful for everyone, just depends on how much you value the utility it offers.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    Alright, a different angle.

    If the suggested use case for the power is so people can go strip harvest entire zones and then "fix it" that encourages a type of behaviour that ignores the negative reinforcement current mechanisms provide.

    Similarly, it's a capstone that has an impact on one trade? How useful would it really be to an org with few herbalists or even just to the non-herbalists in an org who could have gotten a different power instead?
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  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    Lycidas said:
    Again, if you feel the Nature project isn't worth your guild's time or effort, we have four options. The other four powers in the Nature project are extremely good on their own and are more than worth their weight in why you should choose it. I didn't want to design level 5 powers that were "must haves" or altered PK, at least much, so that these choices could be made based on the merits of the other powers.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    Alternative, you could also do something more guild focused.

    The first time any guild achieves a capstone it enables them to submit a guild request to have a thematically appropriate effect available whenever they have that capstone active.

    For example, maybe the Listeners research the desolate anomaly type and have a ritual they can perform that consumes archpower to pull Seren's dead from that timeline into ours temporarily which could provide the forest with some "free", tough, guards while it's maintained.

    But again, dependent on the variables, cause you could also do bigger things if it's harder. Like a Past Anomaly project for the Listeners providing a method for wiping the alabaster road out and restoring the forest that was there.
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  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    Lycidas said:
    Lycidas said:
    Again, if you feel the Nature project isn't worth your guild's time or effort, we have four options. The other four powers in the Nature project are extremely good on their own and are more than worth their weight in why you should choose it. I didn't want to design level 5 powers that were "must haves" or altered PK, at least much, so that these choices could be made based on the merits of the other powers.
    I feel like you're a bit stuck on how useful the power would be to you personally. The other capstones seem generally useful to everyone as opposed to having an ability that's potentially only useful to one trade that it seems likely the majority of players wouldn't have.
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  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    I literally quoted the important part of what I've said and why. I'm not stuck on how useful it is to me personally, I don't even exist in game! The capstone ideas are generally useful to everyone in varying degrees. Magnagora isn't going to take Death because of the capstone idea, we have lichseed which is better, but they'll take the research project because of the other powers in it. Also, Herbs is important to everyone, not just communes. That's how curatives are made and any conflict can honestly happen. City people give a rat's arse about herbs too and their maintained health, not just communes. There are loads of people who take Herbs as either their primary or a skillflex to supply, and would more than likely love a way to keep crops growing more frequently.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    Lycidas said:
    I literally quoted the important part of what I've said and why. I'm not stuck on how useful it is to me personally, I don't even exist in game! The capstone ideas are generally useful to everyone in varying degrees. Magnagora isn't going to take Death because of the capstone idea, we have lichseed which is better, but they'll take the research project because of the other powers in it. Also, Herbs is important to everyone, not just communes. That's how curatives are made and any conflict can honestly happen. City people give a rat's arse about herbs too and their maintained health, not just communes. There are loads of people who take Herbs as either their primary or a skillflex to supply, and would more than likely love a way to keep crops growing more frequently.
    And if it's an issue with supply in the trade system then that issue should be resolved within the scope of the trade system.

    To take that power people are sacrificing one of faster teleports and milestones access, the death effects, or a second trade skill with the majority only gaining an abstract benefit. Maybe death isn't the most widely useful capstone, maybe what it needs is a visit back to the drawing board to devise interactions with effects like lichseed. But that's a lot closer to being universally useful.
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  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    It's not all about the capstones, nor are we going to come to any form of agreement. You don't like Nature's level 5, and that's entirely fine. Also, what else does Nature even do? I got asked to make these in the theme of what they do, so let's look at what it does. AscensionDisc binds, Domoth is literally Herbs tradeskill, Karma is hp regen outdoors. So yea, went with the Herbs part of Nature since I tried to stay away from PK.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    But why are you getting stuck on what currently exists in those aspects when developing something new?

    The theme is nature, you could give people the ability to use their orgs terrain and put in an interaction with censers and melder terraining. The drums of kiakoda artefact might also provide inspiration.
    The grove of isolation from other games also provides something nature themed, drop in something that gives you a "nature"bix that connects to some naturey areas around prime.

    I mean, you could potentially make all of the capstones *bix's that connect to zones that "resonate deeply with the domoths"
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  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,008 Transcendent
    edited April 4
    I havest a lot, more than most, there's only one or two people in the game who harvest more than I do and I don't think the nature power would be of much interest to me. Takes a tick to fix up a messed up room and its rare to have a big area messed up.

    It's a bit specific to a single trade skill as well. Anyone not a herbalist doesn't care about it.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,008 Transcendent
    For knowledge I like the concept of the milestones but would suggest adding in the Catacombs tarot travel locations as well.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,008 Transcendent
    Beauty giving an extra trade skill is pretty sweet. That's a very very interesting power and probally is one of the best of the bunch overall.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,008 Transcendent
    edited April 4
    The death power statis effect sounds pretty strong. I don't think its op but I think it encroaches upon an issue we have already that getting back to a fight after a death is way too quick and easy and this just adds to it. If it stacks with vitae people are effectivly going to have to kill me three times, maybe four if my power regens before I'm shifted off an objective which sounds excessive to me.

  • EstarraEstarra Administrator, Moderator Posts: 1,069 Creator
    Any other ideas for nature? (Or any of the other sets?)
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  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    Just make one post instead of four! The stasis keeps you from actively doing anything, including healing. You're left there at 50% everything with no defenses at all, its just a better vitae. As for the Nature, it is like people don't read.
    Lycidas said:
    I got asked to make these in the theme of what they do, so let's look at what it does. AscensionDisc binds, Domoth is literally Herbs tradeskill, Karma is hp regen outdoors. So yea, went with the Herbs part of Nature since I tried to stay away from PK.
    Bolded just in case. Things were asked to be kept in theme, THAT'S WHY.

    Knowledge could also get the Catacombs teleports, sure, but that then makes it a must have and kind of encroaches on what Death does. What I don't understand is what is people's obsession with the capstones having to being super good? None of these projects are requirements, you're not forced to take any of these. You can permanently keep all three projects at level 1 if you insisted on it. You should be picking a project for ALL the powers, not just number 5.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    Lycidas said:
    Lycidas said:
    I got asked to make these in the theme of what they do, so let's look at what it does. AscensionDisc binds, Domoth is literally Herbs tradeskill, Karma is hp regen outdoors. So yea, went with the Herbs part of Nature since I tried to stay away from PK.
    Bolded just in case. Things were asked to be kept in theme, THAT'S WHY.

    Knowledge could also get the Catacombs teleports, sure, but that then makes it a must have and kind of encroaches on what Death does. What I don't understand is what is people's obsession with the capstones having to being super good? None of these projects are requirements, you're not forced to take any of these. You can permanently keep all three projects at level 1 if you insisted on it. You should be picking a project for ALL the powers, not just number 5.
    You've quoted your post not someone asking you to do what you're saying they have. Theme is not the mechanics a concept already utilises, the theme of nature is nature.

    Further, the capstone must be good because the capstone is the incentive for guilds to push to get the resources necessary to maintain the highest level of their project.
    Again, it's dependent on aspects @Estarra and @Orael haven't confirmed yet, but if it follows the expectation that it's hard to maintain a full project then you need to make it worth the effort.

    Also, to be blunt, I don't imagine any guild that chooses to not take a project at all would be looked on favourably by their org.
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  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    To my understanding of how this system works, using their postings thus far and the systems of the other IRE games this is inspired by, you use a product of the event (anomaly) to raise the level of the project, then use commodities as an upkeep mechanism so that it doesn't regress. As a reference point, were you around for Nexus Weakenings and using auronidion spheres to power org constructs in the nexus? Same kind of deal, just instead of power it needs the commodity of design choice.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    Lycidas said:
    To my understanding of how this system works, using their postings thus far and the systems of the other IRE games this is inspired by, you use a product of the event (anomaly) to raise the level of the project, then use commodities as an upkeep mechanism so that it doesn't regress. As a reference point, were you around for Nexus Weakenings and using auronidion spheres to power org constructs in the nexus? Same kind of deal, just instead of power it needs the commodity of design choice.
    You mean the system that was eventually removed? Yes.

    Creating a system where people need to work and can then just rest on their laurels as long as they get a bare minimum for maintenance is one where eventually everyone would reach the cap.

    Meanwhile, a system with significantly scaling maintenance costs with each additional stage means that players have to regularly engage with Timequakes to make sure they upkeep their projects. Likely to the point where not everyone can have capstones because the maintenance requirements consume enough that there aren't enough anomalies to go around.
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  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    It wasn't removed because it was "too easy" or people rested on their laurels, it got removed because the losing side at that time complained, hard, and it got removed. The "Glom's fault" of today used to be "Celest cried enough" of the past. I was using it as a reference point, not saying it was going to be exactly like that.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    Again, the point was, at this point we're stabbing in the dark as far as bonuses go.

    My expectations are:
    • given the context around why this is being implemented, it's going to be an actual effort to research and maintain the projects.
    • in line with the previous, each project level ramps up in terms of research and maintenance cost.
    • there will not be enough anomalies going around for every org to maintain maxed out projects.
    If these expectations hold true, then every level of a research project would require more and more work from the guild maintaining it. This would in turn mean that level 5 powers would be rare, potentially to the point that not every org might even have one.

    If this is accurate, then the level 5 powers need to be worth the amount of effort they would require, otherwise people just won't participate in the system to hit that point. Let's say that org is Ackleberry.
    Which in turn would free up resources so the other orgs (Jojobo) can get higher. but likely not to the point that anyone would actually hit the cap. 
    But depending on where that balances out, Ackleberry and Jojobo along with their allies could maintain a point which renders fighting over the resources meaningless because no one cares enough to get more anomalies.
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  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    We know that multiple rifts are going to open each day from the initial posting and questions, I want to say we're going to get two of each type daily, AND it has been confirmed that after the an anomaly has been harvested, another can appear if there's time remaining. So we have this to go off of at least.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    edited April 5
    Lycidas said:
    We know that multiple rifts are going to open each day from the initial posting and questions, I want to say we're going to get two of each type daily, AND it has been confirmed that after the an anomaly has been harvested, another can appear if there's time remaining. So we have this to go off of at least.
    Right...

    So let's just plonk numbers into excel here.

    If we get 2 of each rift type every weave, those last for an hour and harvest time is 5 minutes.
    That would mean a weekly maximum of 84 anomalies for each type without the harvest bonus from beauty (112 with it which is a pretty significant step up in numbers and can really make beauty important).

    That's four different assumptions there:
    A ) that anomaly spawns are tied to the weave not the month cycle in game
    B ) that the maintenance cycle is weekly
    C ) that the length a rift is active for is an hour
    D ) that harvesting is a 5 minutes uninterrupted channel

    That's also maximums, so you are liable to see less than that.

    Then we need to look at research and maintenance costs.

    Let's say research for level 1 is 10 anomalies and each level doubles after that with maintenance being half the research cost.

    This would mean moving from level 4 to 5 would cost just under two full weeks worth of anomalies and the maintenance cost would be a couple points under every anomaly for a week. Which then shuts out anyone else from using that project at all.

    Something like a 1.5 multiplication would bring it down but you're still looking at around a quarter of the anomalies each we meaning maybe 4, more likely 3, orgs would be able to have the same project maxed out.

    Change the cycle to follow the day and year cycle in game, two orgs at a stretch could maintain the level 5 while the other orgs can fight over the lower levels with costs doubling. Leave it at a 1.5 and all orgs can maintain all level 5s as long as a couple have beauty.

    You could even have some form of exponential growth to costs which again changes what things would look like.

    All those small variations put different weight on how powerful each level needs to be.
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  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    I find those to be very high estimations for what is to come, as they're wanting to use archpower for level 3, 4, and 5 abilities to either maintain or activate. Not to mention a 5 minute channel, nobody would ever get one because all it would take is an annoying affliction (mantakaya) to pause it. Perhaps we should wait for more details before speculating how it works. My thoughts are they are going to be low-end easy to achieve, and just require some maintenance that won't be too bad.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    edited April 5
    Lycidas said:
    I find those to be very high estimations for what is to come, as they're wanting to use archpower for level 3, 4, and 5 abilities to either maintain or activate. Not to mention a 5 minute channel, nobody would ever get one because all it would take is an annoying affliction (mantakaya) to pause it. Perhaps we should wait for more details before speculating how it works. My thoughts are they are going to be low-end easy to achieve, and just require some maintenance that won't be too bad.
    The plan, afaik, is that orgs would be using the fourth anomaly type for archpower.

    Again, numbers in a spreadsheet, if you drop the channel time you need to up the research and maintenance costs.

    I'd also note, the basis for your suggestions is your speculation on how this is going to work. This is the problem with the current amount of public knowledge about the system, if things are harder than you are assuming then at least some of your suggestions are not worth the effort and, in turn, will require more dev time to replace later on to get people engaging with the system.

    If it's trivial, then bonuses need to be considered within the scope that at some point everyone in the game will reasonably have access to a combination of any three. But this also seems counter to the goal because it means the heightened engagement that is a goal of this has a somewhat limited lifetime.


    edit: Realistically, it seems pretty clear that there are varying expectations of how difficult this is. Which, in turn, is why there are significantly different expectations of the power level of the bonuses. Until @Estarra provides more context there's no realistic way to get closer to an agreement because you'll always be suggesting things that are less powerful than I'd expect.
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  • EstarraEstarra Administrator, Moderator Posts: 1,069 Creator
    I may start removing posts that derail the conversation from brainstorming power ideas as this is what is critical right now. It is way too early to worry about how easy or hard it is to maintain research projects, but it will probably be tweaked as we go along (there's really no way to test these sorts of things until after it's implemented). Keep in mind that it's been said multiple times that other ways will be looked at to generate anomalies (for example, the aethertraders may start trading them for refined craft items).
    So, getting back on topic... any more ideas for Nature or any other research project powers?
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