Wonderbrazier Purify

2

Comments

  • NiwynneNiwynne Member Posts: 54 Capable
    How about rather than just a straight weather changing thing, a reduction in the effects of wind on movement? The winds was pretty awful earlier, with like 90% speed reduction in some parts of the game.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,611 Transcendent
    There are a bunch of things that mitigate weather effects already.  There is something that reduces them when mounted, for example, and the Weatherproof demi power.  The advantage to a weather changing thing is that it would help other people too, another personal only effect is just a copy / paste of existing stuff onto yet another artifact power.

    90% reduction is pretty rough.  Cold temperatures slow you down too.  A cap on just how slow you can get would be useful, but I think that is more of an envoy report thing.
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  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    The WonderBrazier focuses on two things - Esteem generation/figurine and Illusions abilities being made public. I think the proposal I've now put is acceptable and we should roll with it.


  • IxionIxion Member Posts: 781 Transcendent
    edited March 5
    Orael said:
    I don't know that having engulf do 100% is the way we want to go. I don't know that we want bashing to become the best way to generate esteem and I feel like 100% engulfing would lead very quickly to that.
    You could literally double whatever the rate is now and still not be close to influencing for esteem generation. Any influencer worth their salt can easily get 5000 esteem units per hour, sustainably. Also as a note, with all easily available buffs and wonderbrazier, offering esteem is roughly a 741x multiplier to actual essence offered (slightly less for smaller godrealms). This is pretty easy to figure out from the esteem formula as well (5000 --> ~3,705,000 essence offered for example).

    I dare anyone to get anything close to that from individual hunting effort in an hour. Heck, I defy anyone to get even half of that by themselves in an hour. The only way to hunt where you'd even get close to that much in esteem via purify is to take a bunch of people to astral who have low crits or newbies not attacking, and getting the overwhelming majority of the kills/corpses. Even then, it's not an individual effort like influencing is AND is not sustainable due to insanity AND even still doesn't compare. One of the best sessions I've seen with ~80% crit and getting a huge ratio of corpses compared to the large astral group yielded like 11000 esteem via purify over 3-4 hours.

    If people hate the idea, fine, but let no one imagine that hunting is even eclipsing the power of influencing for esteem generation, and by way of the crazy buff stacking, offering to divine.


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  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    edited March 5
    Because I wish to appeal to the mid-tier of Influencers, here's what we're working with on a casual level too.

    13/13 empower buff
    Royalty prestige, sycophant added (doesn't do anything)
    1/3 Equilibrium from Infused Food (WonderCorn)
    Mask of Esteemed Beauty
    Regal WonderMask
    This setup takes me about 20 seconds to influence a guard at 11.3 esteem per guard. Calculated into unstopped influencing per hour is 2,040 esteem. That's mid-tier esteem gain, since guards are pretty low on the pole, but it's also the laziest. Using that as a comparison I will use astral beasts in a solo-link environment. I'm killing roughly 1 every 10 seconds because of linking speed and waiting for them to appear on my location. They are worth 7 esteem per corpse when in solo-environment so calculating that is 2,520 for a solid hour. Yes I'm aware that 10 seconds seems a lot, but it is factoring in the time when the mobs are too lost to find you and just sit on the bubble.
  • IxionIxion Member Posts: 781 Transcendent
    I don't see a point to use that type of comparison (Linked astral mobs vary in purify value. Sample size is too low also, doing a couple hours might begin to give a decent estimate, and it's not sustainable on multiple levels, and guards are rather crappy esteem to begin with, and I doubt you used cookies to double the esteem rate).

    The reasonable top end limitations seems more relevant IMO.
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  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    Right, I didn't use cookies at all, but the double masks was just a way to demonstrate something I can do. That's no ikon or cookies.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,611 Transcendent
    edited March 5
    Why are you comparing esteem from the corpse to esteem from influencing?  Corpses are painfully undervalued and simply cannot be directly compared; esteem has a +300% bonus that corpses do not (from the shrunken l40 figurine).

    What you need to do is compare the esteem from offering a number of things to the direct offering rate of that same number of corpses, taking into account a miniaturized level 40 figurine (all other offering buffs equaling out).

    You cannot use astral mobs because they vary in offering value (three different mitrans will not always offer for the same rate).

    If you have 10 Muud parasites and you offer them for 1000 each (numbers are very wrong there, I do not have access to the exact values), a direct 1:1 ratio of esteem to offering value would net you 10k worth of offerings from those corpses (which maths out to 25 esteem: 25 x 100 x 4).

    Currently the corpses are supposed to be a little worse than that, with the tradeoff being that you can stock it up.  If brazier lets corpses generate the same esteem per hour as influencing, why would anyone ever offer a corpse?  Esteem is just so much better.

    If you want them to be more equal you are going to have to buff the value of corpses themselves (and thus the esteem value they generate should also go up equally).

    Edit: And as Ixion points out there are tons of ways to buff esteem generation that have zero impact on corpses, leaving them even further behind in output.
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  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    Lycidas said:
    Because I wish to appeal to the mid-tier of Influencers, here's what we're working with on a casual level too.

    13/13 empower buff
    Royalty prestige, sycophant added (doesn't do anything)
    1/3 Equilibrium from Infused Food (WonderCorn)
    Mask of Esteemed Beauty
    Regal WonderMask
    This setup takes me about 20 seconds to influence a guard at 11.3 esteem per guard. Calculated into unstopped influencing per hour is 2,040 esteem. That's mid-tier esteem gain, since guards are pretty low on the pole, but it's also the laziest. Using that as a comparison I will use astral beasts in a solo-link environment. I'm killing roughly 1 every 10 seconds because of linking speed and waiting for them to appear on my location. They are worth 7 esteem per corpse when in solo-environment so calculating that is 2,520 for a solid hour. Yes I'm aware that 10 seconds seems a lot, but it is factoring in the time when the mobs are too lost to find you and just sit on the bubble.

    I wouldn't really call 13/13 casual level.

    Thats pretty buffed.

    A better compare would be someone with about 7 empower and no mask.
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    As I stated in my post, I did lazy esteem generation versus something more active. And yes, I was using 7 esteem per corpse as an average, since I was engulfing them one at a time for values. But something I asked earlier and still needs an answer, "What is so wrong with an artifact investment being better than base corpse offering?" Why should the basic offering method be equal to, or better, than someone investing in an artifact -designed- to increase offerings. There aren't any active Divine (to my knowledge) that require corpse offerings rather than esteem.
  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 156 Capable
    I like the suggestion of making it so you can do quests with otherwise enemied mobs for a time with this. Let's go with that.
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    yes, 7 esteem is the base, but that wouldn't be mid-tier now would it? There's a reason why I called it mid-tier and listed what I was personally working with in that sample.
  • IxionIxion Member Posts: 781 Transcendent
    edited March 5
    Xenthos said:
    Why are you comparing esteem from the corpse to esteem from influencing?  Corpses are painfully undervalued and simply cannot be directly compared; esteem has a +300% bonus that corpses do not (from the shrunken l40 figurine).

    Because we were provided direct ability to convert one into the other (corpses into esteem), and esteem before such time was ONLY generated from influencing. Comparing esteem per unit time, to.... esteem per unit time seems very appropriate to me.

    Alternatively, perhaps esteem buffs need to be nerfed into the ground to make hunting corpses actually worth a damn. Frankly, if you're hunting mass corpses for anything other than gold turn-ins, that's a darn shame because it's such a waste of time comparatively.
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  • NiwynneNiwynne Member Posts: 54 Capable
    Xenthos said:
    There are a bunch of things that mitigate weather effects already.  There is something that reduces them when mounted, for example, and the Weatherproof demi power.  The advantage to a weather changing thing is that it would help other people too, another personal only effect is just a copy / paste of existing stuff onto yet another artifact power.

    90% reduction is pretty rough.  Cold temperatures slow you down too.  A cap on just how slow you can get would be useful, but I think that is more of an envoy report thing.
    Fair enough. I'm not super clued up on all this. 
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    Ixion said:
    Xenthos said:
    Why are you comparing esteem from the corpse to esteem from influencing?  Corpses are painfully undervalued and simply cannot be directly compared; esteem has a +300% bonus that corpses do not (from the shrunken l40 figurine).

    Because we were provided direct ability to convert one into the other (corpses into esteem), and esteem before such time was ONLY generated from influencing. Comparing esteem per unit time, to.... esteem per unit time seems very appropriate to me.

    Alternatively, perhaps esteem buffs need to be nerfed into the ground to make hunting corpses actually worth a damn. Frankly, if you're hunting mass corpses for anything other than gold turn-ins, that's a darn shame because it's such a waste of time comparatively.
    Maybe remove converting corpses to esteem then if its going to cause these issues.

    Its not something thats needed, its a nifty little thing you can do to save up esteem but its really not something thats needed.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    edited March 5
    Like my way of thinking on turning corpses to esteem is that any corpses I can convert to esteem is a lot.

    Even if its at a crazy high loss. 

    Esteem is better than having corpses in many ways. It lasts longer so I can store it up to save for later defiles or empowering of shrines. 

    I can sell esteem for gold as well which is something I can't do with corpses.(most corpses)

    Being able to convert any corpses to esteem even with a massive loss is still a very good ability.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,611 Transcendent
    Ixion said:
    Xenthos said:
    Why are you comparing esteem from the corpse to esteem from influencing?  Corpses are painfully undervalued and simply cannot be directly compared; esteem has a +300% bonus that corpses do not (from the shrunken l40 figurine).

    Because we were provided direct ability to convert one into the other (corpses into esteem), and esteem before such time was ONLY generated from influencing. Comparing esteem per unit time, to.... esteem per unit time seems very appropriate to me.

    Alternatively, perhaps esteem buffs need to be nerfed into the ground to make hunting corpses actually worth a damn. Frankly, if you're hunting mass corpses for anything other than gold turn-ins, that's a darn shame because it's such a waste of time comparatively.
    I think I get where you are coming from here, but the design was not to be competitive with other esteem generation but instead to be roughly equivalent to just offering the things (though a little bit worse).

    By doing so, however, it just makes how wide the disparity between one method of generation and the other absolutely glaring (which is your underlying point, yes?).

    I wouldn't object to influencing esteem going down or corpses (and engulf esteem) going up to bring things closer to being in line.  I think it would actually be a good thing.  But that is the underlying design here and why they are saying they don't want to buff it past the raw offerings rate.
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  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,680 Transcendent
    Personally think the poison curing one sounds interesting but at 10p and once a day why would anyone bother?
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 291 Creator
    I'm still mulling this one over. The extra esteem generation is the current winner of the poll, but as noted, the wonderbrazier already provides a bonus to this.

    I do think it's better to leave esteem generation to influencing (even if hunting will never rival it) but would something like Lycidas suggested to increase corpse offerings be something people are interested in?
  • NiwynneNiwynne Member Posts: 54 Capable
    Yes.
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    @Orael Can we also do the order shuffle that was suggested as well? Or are we only altering Purify with this?
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,016 Transcendent
    Orael said:
    I'm still mulling this one over. The extra esteem generation is the current winner of the poll, but as noted, the wonderbrazier already provides a bonus to this.

    I do think it's better to leave esteem generation to influencing (even if hunting will never rival it) but would something like Lycidas suggested to increase corpse offerings be something people are interested in?

    I like the offering buff idea lycidias put out
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,950 Transcendent
    edited March 8
    EDIT: Wrong thread.

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  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 291 Creator
    I haven't forgotten about this, I'm still mulling ideas over in my head. 

    I'm fine with the offering buff but it's kind of lackluster and boring. I'll think on it some more and if nothing comes to me, we'll go with that.
  • InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
    I really like the censor idea. 
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,950 Transcendent
    Just make sure that wonderbrazier censer doesn't stack with Air/Water/whatever censer. I don't want to have to make Yet Another Wonderitem to be competitive (in this case, if they stacked they'd get base 3s to terrain a room, while a melder with just a regular censer would still be stuck at 3.5)

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  • InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
    Ayisdra said:
    Orael said:
    I haven't forgotten about this, I'm still mulling ideas over in my head. 

    I'm fine with the offering buff but it's kind of lackluster and boring. I'll think on it some more and if nothing comes to me, we'll go with that.
    What about giving a Censer (ashop 552-557) effect - WONDERBRAZIER CENSER <meldtype> to make the room whatever meldtype (same time reduction if in hands of the right melder, stacking if you have the matching censer?)? Not sure if it is higher enough in the item to justify a omni-censer.
    Maybe  allow the censor type to be changed once per IG month or year? 
  • TridemonTridemon Member Posts: 688 Fabled
    How about... Purify can make Truegrounding cost 1 power, and reduce the EQ cost by 3 seconds.
    I'm Lucidian. If I don't get pedantic every so often, I might explode.
  • IxionIxion Member Posts: 781 Transcendent
    Tridemon said:
    How about... Purify can make Truegrounding cost 1 power, and reduce the EQ cost by 3 seconds.
    Neat idea. You could even fully remove power cost from TG and make it same base balance cost as censer. At least then it would get used. There's no need for a power cost since it's not contributing to building melds.
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