Org Class Synergy-Gaudiguch

ShangoShango Member Posts: 156 Capable
edited April 5 in Ideas
One of a small series of threads, wherein I wish to address the game's general imbalance in a way that will better benefit all with bringing a given org's group combat synergy into a better, more even keel. Glomdoring is known for having great synergy in combat, as most if not all of their classes have strong means to push for and support the application of a given affliction combo that will drive hard for ease of killing across the board. That being a synergy between Bleed and thus Mana pressure, leading to either death from the initial aff if not cured, or death to rapid toading if it is.

Gaudiguch (pulling from my comment from a prior thread that got this started)

Gaudiguch is based on Slush based, but so damned chaotic...fitting for a city of Flame based on Chaos as a theme with their access to the Cosmic Plane of Vortex. However, means much of what they need, will be heavily RNG based. Illuminati is one of the strongest classes in the game, but hampered by this fact more than any other, with only real advantage over MDs and SDs being that their mass of ents need to be targeted individually rather than a common moniker like 'fae', so take longer to kill. Limited access to Aeon as well, Tarot being the primary means for it for them, compared to Institute, but more on par to Nihilists of Mag save with more diversified ents and harder to hamper with a Nymph mask or denizen targeting due to multiple targets. Remains the RNG nature of Para that hampers most of what they can do. Now we get to the other side of it, their focus IS on Slush, while half the city needs to rely on ice as ablaze/burns is cured through that. Synergy gets divided into two focuses rather than complimentary, and no aff in Slush or Ice tables bridges the gap, with the exception of DamagedThroat that I hope their new monks can dish out as an Ice cure that also stops Slush sipping....but ONE class in the whole city can offer that. Warriors could, depending on spec (Pureblade and Blademaster, via SlitThroat, both requiring Heavy Wounds to apply so you will NOT get that easily in the fast paced engagements group combat especially revolves around), but timing is a factor. Burns focus could get the kill, if some of their focus was switched to that, TemporaryInsanity somehow switched to an Ice cure (baaad idea) else built off burn sources from Pyromancers, newmonks, etc, could get them closer to be on par with Glomdoring's bleed and mana synergy. Biggest issue is that, intentional I think, haphazard and chaotic design of their classes in general though. @Malarious, @Steingrim, @Dys as the primary experts more familiar with the nuances of Gaudiguch, best for you to help me out here for specifics, accuracy being more important than my outside observations.

'Illuminati -used- to be one of the best classes about until a certain envoy suggested nerfs to -intentionally- underpower the class in a what he claimed was a two step program to make Illuminati a less passive build. He removed the majority of passive build but failed to ever include new active building of insanity. Leaving Illuminati in a very bad place in terms of killing power. Add to this there are things like karma blessings affecting this insanity build and a bigger reliance on easily killed ents (including the 5 power temporary one) this class is probably on the bottom of the pile for killing. It does have some neat support skills though. Also compared to my playing Celestine, Nihilist, Moondancer and Researcher. Ent control of Illuminati is a lot more complex then the others I played (eg one small mistake or even delay on a command can instantly reduce your build to 0).

Researchers actually got the skills that were removed from Illuminati for being to passive. And I would certainly place researchers well above Illuminati at this point.' as per @Esoneyuna

Such a matter is a great example of what needs to be addressed, moving forward, how can we resolve this, how can we address the other classes in Gaudiguch to assist in a better synergy design? Burns, slush focus, what?

From this we can move forward, with the various issues pointed out, on how best to address them, moving forward. Constructive disagreements and discussion is welcome, but as always keep it civil. And do NOT namedrop anyone in particular as a specific problem, or derail this attempt. This is a matter important to the general health and well-being of the game as a whole.
Post edited by Shango on

Comments

  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    edited April 6


    Missing what all Morrible and VisionFlux can afflict with. If I missed something, please point it out so I can update this and we can have a good starting point.

    Edit: Thank you, Dys, for the information. Let me know what other corrections you notice.
    Post edited by Lycidas on
  • DysDys Member Posts: 662 Fabled
    edited April 6
    Thanks for setting those out @Lycidas, there's some changes which I'll add when I get chance later, and more thoughts. I know Illuminati best.

    Morrible does one of clumsiness, sensitivity, anorexia, hallucinations, temp insanity every 12s. Dies in 1-2 hits (@Shango? It always takes me 2 but sometimes looks like you manage it in 1. Is that right?). 2 power, 4s to resummon.

    From the Illuminati side most Gaudi classes could help with temp insanity apart from pyromancers. Need to think about how to help other classes

    One of the downsides of relying on mental afflictions is that everyone has a great counter with chaos karma blessing which eats about 30% of them. I'll check that %.

    Edit: Checked and it absorbed 36% of paranoia hexes over 300 attempts. So I guess around a 33% rate.
    Post edited by Dys on
  • EstarraEstarra Administrator, Moderator Posts: 1,074 Creator
    I'm really impressed by these org class synergy threads and just want to say if you guys come up with a fairly clean plan, we'll definitely look at implementation. (Though please note that the demesne system is getting a big rework so don't spend too much time worrying about that at this time.)
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  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 156 Capable
    Gnomeweapon, to note, have a good base damage, added to with each Gearbox. And I have maxed out damage buffs for Divinus....likely lets me one shot things most need two for. Not sure if they're crittable, never noticed as I was focused more on countering the class mechanics at the time than focusing on the specifics =/
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    Loyals act like smobs in the sense they cannot be crit. Is there a chance of that it uses attacker's Divinus buff vs defender's Divinus resist?
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    I'm asking if that is the current case, not suggesting it.
  • InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
    Personally, with a hidden love for Gaudiguch, I would love to see ablaze the synergy for Gaudiguch. Leave tempinsanity alone. Maybe remove unneeded illuminati nerfs. Changing the minstrel ego kill to a burns kill could create greater synergy between pyro, nunchaku, and minstrel. Plus warrior could help with pyrotoxin. Maybe make the minstrel song have the ability to strip and/or prevent the frost defense for x seconds. I'm unsure if illuminati could build burns, but it would be cool if they could too.
  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 413 Adept
    Except that one is slush and one is ice, so there's no real choosing which to handle first. Warriors and Monks deal ice afflictions to try and bury burns for their pyromancers and all the mental afflictions everywhere try to bury tempinsanity for the paradigmatics users.
  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 413 Adept
    Honestly, after that post I made a bit of a solution came into my mind. If Yongdengqishi and Burst were modified, we might be onto a winner of a combination with minimal changes. So their current Ninchaku burst is:

    Bursting allows you to convert hemorrhaging to mental afflictions.
    You can afflict one mental affliction for every 150 hemorrhaging burst.
    You can afflict one hidden mental affliction for every 250 hemorrhaging burst.
    You cannot afflict temporary insanity by bursting.

    and Yongdengqishi now deal 15% damage per mental affliction.

    -IF- we changed burst to:

    Bursting allows you to convert hemorrhaging to burns.
    You can afflict one stack of burns for every 150 hemorrhaging burst.
    You can afflict one additional stack of burns for every 250 hemorrhaging burst.

    and Yongdengqishi now deals 25% damage per degree of burns.

    What does this do? Well it makes Nunchaku rely less on the mental afflictions they don't really afflict minus through current bursting, requiring allies. This gives them bite again in a solo environment, as well as giving them beautiful synergy with a Pyromancer. They can still afflict with tempinsanity to help the Paradigmatics users, as can the Minstrels and Pyrochemancers. Likewise, the other classes are able to apply burns to help the other fork of this synergy. Sure both can be equally cured at the same time, but it is still multiple pressures and -every- class can take advantage of at least one.
  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 156 Capable
    'Gaudiguch=Burns, ice and slush pressure (because of insanity)' And idea I had for a focus for Gaudiguch's path to unified improvement. Makai's suggestion above is another good step as well, to consider. Biggest issue here with mine, Ice affs have some of the strongest hinders in the game, so a focus on them...bad news for most others.

    But on the other hand, such DOES fall into the effectivity goal I'd love to see all orgs reach. What are the thoughts of those of you from Gaudi on this?
  • DysDys Member Posts: 662 Fabled
    Sorry for the slowness.

    Visionflux does the same affs as Greywhispers I think, so one of paranoia, confusion, addiction, anorexia, hallucinations, stupidity each tick. It might still do temp insanity too, like Greywhispers did. It costs 6 power for about 6 ticks and hits all enemies but that's not terribly useful as unless you're focusing someone you'll never build temp insanity and it's all cured fast. I'll try and test later.

    A fork approach is interesting. At the moment you can just cure both paths at the same time. Maybe some inspiration from Huoyanti in Nunchuku, the kick where burns increases with mental afflictions. That's the kind of unifying skill that would be handy. I don't know how that scales, so many things to test! :D


  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 413 Adept
    Indeed you can cure both at the same time, but burns is hidden behind all the other ice pressures (literally every ice aff) and tempinsanity is hidden behind all the other slush pressures (addiction, anorexia, clumsiness, stupidity, sensitivity, etc) so it is harder to cure them, especially when you're told, "If you focus on curing burns over limbs, now you're stuck in place and can't run. If you focus limbs over burns, I can instantly kill you for that decision." as well as, "If you focus tempinsanity over mental affs, the burning is only going to get stronger. If you focus the mental affs over tempinsanity, I can instantly kill you for that decision."
  • DysDys Member Posts: 662 Fabled
    edited April 10
    Is that the suggestion after potential changes? Because currently when you sip slush you cure a mental aff AND temp insanity. Or can focus temp insanity to cure at double rate.

    Making temp insanity cure last would be too strong I think.
  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 413 Adept
    Wasn't aware it worked like that, figured it behaved like -every- other affliction in the game. If necessary, can make it so that you have to cure it individually since it takes a while to stack up to a usable level.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,633 Transcendent
    Makai said:
    Wasn't aware it worked like that, figured it behaved like -every- other affliction in the game. If necessary, can make it so that you have to cure it individually since it takes a while to stack up to a usable level.
    Don't some other level things work like that?
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  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,955 Transcendent
    I've said this in a few other mediums, but I want to say it here too. I think that karma chaos blessing precludes any chance of Illuminate as it stands, as if there were enough obstacles. Karma chaos (and death) probably need to be tuned down.

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  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 163 Adept
    Karma chaos gives resistance to astral insanity. 
    Karma death prevents essence/experience loss on death.

    Someone throw in a report?
  • EjderhaEjderha Member Posts: 185 Gifted
    Makai said:
     Well it makes Nunchaku rely less on the mental afflictions they don't really afflict minus through current bursting, requiring allies. This gives them bite again in a solo environment...
    Hi, I'm a has-been who doesn't play anymore, and I'm a bit out of the loop, but you've said something that touches the only thing that positively engages my brain relating to Lusternia so I'm going to say some words. Feel free to ignore them or push the "LOL" button as you see fit.

    the fact that Nunchaku 'don't really afflict' with mental affs- which is to say, they don't have arm/leg actions to afflict mental afflictions is a design decision, not a 'weakness' of the class. Tessenchi is the same way with steam affs. The model is not that you just push 'max mental affs' until you overwhelm them and burst. Which I'm glad for - that sounds much less fun than the actual design. And probably OP.

    Instead, you have to manage a series of actions with one set of tools that feeds one goal, then switch to another set of goals in a 'burst' to finish the job. The function of affliction attrition in the class is to enable hemorrhage building. 

    It is completely possible (on paper) to be successful in solo combat doing this. I did so (as Tessenchi) even before we envoyed increased damage per aff and other changes to make it more reliable.

    I'm not trying to say 'get good,' and if it comes off like that, I'm sorry. I liked the newmonk design but I do think it's one of the more complicated and finicky strategies to manage, at least that I dabbled in.

    I'm also not trying to say that The Vision trumps everything. On the other hand, if there is a solid design strategy, breaking basic principles of it is more likely to cause complicated consequences than making changes within it. In my opinion, the long arc of Lusternia design and balance has had maybe too many visions and hands and so few strict design goals, and that had built up many imbalances. More recent development - newmonks at least, which seemed to have some very clear design goals and a 'primary' person handling the before and after release changes - has stronger goals, and I think leaning into them rather than fighting them is both better for the game and more likely to get accepted/implemented.

    Tessenchi is (was) 'better' than Nunchaku, on balance. There were a few reasons I think that was true, but the most relevant here is that one of the burstable affs was also a cure delay, which made the window of sufficient affs just a little bit longer.

    Nunchaku was therefore more heavily impacted by shrugging/immunity/poison unreliability/etc and hoping for RNG to help in terms of stupidity or the like screwing up healing (which also took a hit with SSC).

    I'm not a huge fan of RNG mechanics; I'm glad I wasn't Nunchaku. But if I were trying to propose a change I thought was likely to help, be accepted, and not be OP I would lean into this mechanic rather than fighting it.

    For example (and off the top of my head):
    DISCO PANIC: 
    Successful Attacks with Nunchaku (arm actions) passively afflict with DISCO PANIC, an incurable condition with a duration of 3s, refreshed (not extended) by other Nunchaku hits.
    While afflicted with DISCO PANIC, the target Has a chance at failing to cure mental afflictions when sipping slush (throwing the balance) based on the number of slush affs (n% per aff, or some log function for diminishing returns).

    (this could also be triggered by Nunchaku burst rather than just hits, which would tone it down as a general utility and target it more for monks)

    Maybe this is just my strategy for game changes, or my love of newmonk design, or maybe I'm washed up. Take or leave this, no skin off my back.

    I'm not saying I hate your idea or that it's bad for the game. Just offering a perspective as a former monk and Envoy.


  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 156 Capable
    Bear in mind, all of this is the brainstorming phase to address the lack of cohesive synergy across most orgs in the game, so that we can get things fixed. 'Vision' or not, things aren't working as is and we seek to do what can be done to address that...so while what you describe may but how it currently is, all of this seeks to make things better in the future, even if it requires quite a few changes to make it so.

    What would you suggest for changes to fix the problems you feel are present in Gaudiguch's classes, nunchaku included?
  • EjderhaEjderha Member Posts: 185 Gifted
    Shango said:
    Bear in mind, all of this is the brainstorming phase to address the lack of cohesive synergy across most orgs in the game, so that we can get things fixed. 'Vision' or not, things aren't working as is and we seek to do what can be done to address that...so while what you describe may but how it currently is, all of this seeks to make things better in the future, even if it requires quite a few changes to make it so.

    What would you suggest for changes to fix the problems you feel are present in Gaudiguch's classes, nunchaku included?
    I appreciate you keeping the conversation on topic.

    i think my idea directly addresses the org synergy issue for Gaudiguch by allowing two org strengths (burns and mental affs) to interact. It increases the benefits of burns for Gaudi only (it was noted pyromancer doesn't really mesh with the mental affs part, yes?) and increases the ability of Nunchaku to achieve their kill condition, while providing group utility.
  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 156 Capable
    Wouldn't hurt to suggest a few mental affs into the pyro toolkit (I'm on fire, I'm not gonna be exactly in the right frame of mind...), buuut...Mage rework will have to come first before much of that is touched, sadly. Once that IS set though, or even just before so such can be included, no reason Pyromancers cannot be on board with the rest at least.

    Real question is, is that what everyone would feel comfortable pushing as their synergy? It's not just 'you all got this, should do this, you're stuck with it'...but what would mesh best with the thematic feel of a given org by those who are members? Seems to be a good fit so far: Nunchaku, Illuminati especially, and throw in 'shit's on fire, yo' Pyros later...how best to start pushing the designs in? There'd be a number of select skills per class that might do with some suitable adjustments to start, can put those up as Envoy reports now, likely.
  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 413 Adept
    @Ejderha Ignoring or disregarding someone's opinion and insight is how we lose progress. Even though I'm not apart of the org itself, I want people to feel empowered to take on an opponent if they choose to, and not just be told their class is weak and you need X partner to be good. Your response to Shango about the issue kind of touches what I wanted to address as well, similar goal different methods. My main reason for suggesting Nunchaku switch to burn levels for Burst and their insta over mentals was because of solo viability as well as kind of bring Pyromancers into a synergy without too many changes being required in the mage update. HOWEVER! I also like your approach to the idea, as Burst currently does 5 normal affs and 3 hidden affs (assuming at 750+ hemo) which is 3/4 of all mental affs and it can't afflict with tempinsanity, so really you're at 8/11. Granting the Disco Panic or whatever it gets called to either a Surge stance or the Burst itself (instead of weakening like original monks). Though maybe do 4s instead of 3s, if only because most balance timers for monks are either at 3s or more without boosting the form prior.
  • InnonInnon Member Posts: 152 Capable
    Just saying a perfect newmonk setup kill can be avoided by vitality, allheal, and either slush/steam; however, working in sensitivity and some other things may strengthen the kill method. The point is that the kill condition is much harder to achieve compared to others. The strength of newmonk is groups. Having a group able to slush/steam stack and just tcuts/nunchaku one on killer twice is really good. Literally 600 hemo and a Tessenchi can drop all aurics. If any bard is around and timed properly then boom dcord. Nunchaku has access to asthma and locks. The problem is all this is possible, but in my opinion not competitive in current meta or population. 
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