Org Class Synergy-Celest

ShangoShango Member Posts: 153 Capable
One of a small series of threads, wherein I wish to address the game's general imbalance in a way that will better benefit all with bringing a given org's group combat synergy into a better, more even keel. Glomdoring is known for having great synergy in combat, as most if not all of their classes have strong means to push for and support the application of a given affliction combo that will drive hard for ease of killing across the board. That being a synergy between Bleed and thus Mana pressure, leading to either death from the initial aff if not cured, or death to rapid toading if it is.

Celest (pulling from my comment from a prior thread that got this started)

Celest....the odd egg. No real synergy build to speak of, but a number of singular, very strong skills. Great for burst lols, but harder to fit with the argument of synergy across an entire org for design. Inquisition is hella strong....HATE that it strips even Lichseed despite that def costing Power, and that stupid-long stun it has...but on its own, it will NOT kill the target. Tear of Shallah, you won't get away with popping it, and Judgement cheese, despite many attempts at just that over the years. Aquamancer melds passively, PASSIVELY, stripping Waterbreathe and Waterwalk with flows drawing targets to the centre, the only Mage build with such a powerful attribute, even if the flows has ironically worked against them quite a few times, rather than helped, due to Centre not being moved mid-battle to compensate for changing battle flow across meld locations. Aquachemancer+Dreamweaver is perhaps the strongest, most absurd combination in the game, due to strong passive builds on select affs assisting in ego drain abilities....both active and passive a la Dreambeast. Cantors being able to imbue their songs with Aeon so they have access without having to take up Tarot. It feels like a lot of neat little toys had been given over the years when desired, but no real through to overall scheme. Makes Celest classes strong in select scenarios, but lacking in that overall strength needed for proper balance to keep their own people engaged for the longer term. Working towards freezing the target for Preservation, Mana drains for Absolve, having Shackles for....some reason....Inquisition. Shiny toys to stand out, but no real fluidity in design seems to be present. There hopefully is a lot I am missing, @Romaan, @Minkahmet, you'd be the best ones to speak on this. @Auriella if you still play, you did well with the Aquachist+Dreamweaver combo, and thus best positioned to speak on it here. 

No comments as yet addressing Celest save my own above, but the largest problem historically has got to be the concerns of the shiny select skills, but no sweeping overall design to tie it all together. Leaves a bit of a shallow feel to much of what Celest's potential really should be offering, either as a member or having to face them, there is no enjoyment to lackluster. Let's all fix this.

From this we can move forward, with the various issues pointed out, on how best to address them, moving forward. Constructive disagreements and discussion is welcome, but as always keep it civil. And do NOT namedrop anyone in particular as a specific problem, or derail this attempt. This is a matter important to the general health and well-being of the game as a whole.

Comments

  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    edited April 6
    Can someone with access to what the Celestines have as invest-able powers could please either post them here or message me, that would be grand! I'm making a giant spreadsheet for this project and would like to make the most fair assessments of all skills and abilities.

    Edit: Also needing things for Cantor's PrincessFarewell, JustChorale, and AvengingAngel
    Post edited by Lycidas on
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    edited April 7


    EDIT: Thank you Minkhamet and Lorina for helping to compile an accurate list of what is going on. All skills are now represented.

    **NOTE** Let it be known that Aquamancers have multiple meld abilities that strip defenses and this is openly acknowledged. They do not appear on this last as they are not either present on the AFFS LIST in game, or have no 'cure' method. This is also a list of abilities from the Primary and Secondary abilities of the unique skillsets to Celest. Upon request, I can post a shared Warrior and Bard table I've made so that synergies can either be found, drawn, or created for the betterment of the game.
    Post edited by Lycidas on
  • TridemonTridemon Member Posts: 677 Fabled
    An aquamancer's demesne will strip an elemental defense (Needlerain), chill(Icefloe), force down flyers and people in trees(Typhoon), heal allies(Healspring), stun enemies(Jellies), pull enemies toward the center of the demesne(Currents), and passively make waterbreathing ineffective(Stillwater). Whirlpool will force people toward the caster in flooded environments, and make it harder to leave the room. The target is supposed to be to build toward Preserve, which is an instakill requiring the target being below half health and in a frozen condition- it also does damage if the target is shivering, or frozen but with more than 50% health, dealing more damage to the latter than to the former, with variable power costs depending whether or not the caster is in their own demesne and if the target is chilled/frozen.
    I'm Lucidian. If I don't get pedantic every so often, I might explode.
  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 153 Capable
    edited April 6
    Yeah, and how well does Celest build on Dust affs? Since shivering/frozen falls into that category of heal type, need a way to stack well enough to build easier. Mages in general can work the health with the right focus, plus the stun off the meld, but if they never get to frozen due to lack of effective dust stacking to overwhelm the basic 1/2s balance time plus Focus cooldown...

    Other classes in the city offer anything to assist in that? Added to the question, other classes in the city able to build off that focus from the Aquamancers to gain their own reqs in turn? Number from Tahtetso at least, to assist the Aquamancer. But for the other half of the question? And any ideas on how to tweak the current design build for classes to springboard off the Aquamancer's focus?
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    @Tridemon I know that they strip a ton of defenses and such, but I'm focusing on actual afflictions for these spreadsheets, hence why it isn't being shown. I probably overlooked Preserve thinking it was just a way to keep a corpse from rez'ing, I'll add it to the spreadsheet.
  • MinkahmetMinkahmet Member Posts: 74 Apprentice
    edited April 6
    Defense stripping counts as an affliction in my thinking. It can actually work against a person in combat, a little nuisance, but if the victim isn't an avid pker, it would easily play to the advantage of the one doing the stripping. Like a common stripping would be quicksilver>aeon. Though by the by, Celest do have very good synergy, it just all ties into having an aquamancer :)
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    I guess we can agree to disagree? As stated prior, I acknowledge that Aqua melds do a lot of defense stripping, but in and of itself, is not an affliction. I'm listing things that show up on AFFS LIST in game. Though, still need help with Celestine powers so that I can finish this spreadsheet, as well as the effects of the few Cantor abilities.
  • EstarraEstarra Administrator, Moderator Posts: 1,071 Creator
    I'm really impressed by these org class synergy threads and just want to say if you guys come up with a fairly clean plan, we'll definitely look at implementation. (Though please note that the demesne system is getting a big rework so don't spend too much time worrying about that at this time.)
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  • TylwythTylwyth Member Posts: 1,640 Mythical
    OK, if no one else does, I'll get you a list of affs per supernal pledge later today. 
    FOR pposters who aren't steingrim:

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  • MinkahmetMinkahmet Member Posts: 74 Apprentice
    You have the following pledges and investible powers:
    Raziela the Loving Radiance
    * Recklessness, pacifism, karmichealing, clumsiness, manabarbs
    Shakiniel, Defender of the Dawning Hope
    * Paranoia, anorexia, blackout, confusion, egovice
    Methrenton, Crusader of the Holy Flame
    * Sensitivity, bleeding, justice, powersap, flame
    Elohora, Lady of the Eternal Light
    * Addiction, paralysis, powersink, luminous, kneel
    Japhiel, Illuminator of Merciful Justice
    * Stupidity, amnesia, hallucinations, shackles, disloyalty
  • KalnidKalnid Member Posts: 525 Fabled
    Kneel is prone with a small stun, right? What're karmichealing and justice these days?
  • MinkahmetMinkahmet Member Posts: 74 Apprentice
    justice seems to be an affliction that didn't get overhauled or whatever recently. Its not in line from the looks since it gives me this line: surrounded by the aura of justice.  Karmichealing just cures the Celestine when the target heals themself and supposedly lasts 60 seconds.
  • TylwythTylwyth Member Posts: 1,640 Mythical
    Weird that the Merciful Justice doesn't give you the justice aff?
    Right?
    FOR pposters who aren't steingrim:

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  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    Updated the spreadsheet, still missing those Cantor skills and then whatever karmichealing and justice is.
  • LorinaLorina Member Posts: 156 Gifted
    Karmichealing causes the angel to give a 60 second defensive debuff on the Angel's target, and for the duration, any Healing sips is given to the angel's owner at 25% power. Only one of these debuffs can be in effect and it can't be cured other than waiting the 60 seconds. 

    Justice is a weird one that is cured by reishi. I think it just reflects a portion of damage back, right?


    For Cantor's skills:
    Princess Farewell:
    Starlight, CrusaderCanto, Starchord, ColourSpray/Burst, RainbowPattern, Warrior, Pratfall, and AvengingAngel will all trigger twice or have their effectiveness roughly doubled while the victim is suffering from these echoes. If AvengingAngel is on target, JustChorale will also be twice as powerful.

    Just Chorale:
    Afflicts Paranoia, Pacifism, Paralysis... maybe other things.

    Avenging Angel:
    60 second affliction that spawns either one or two hidden afflictions every 5ish seconds. Gives impatience, recklessness, amnesia?, confusion, stupidity.

  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    Thank you, so PrincessFarewell is no longer a stun and blackout like I remember from years ago? Just clarifying so I have accurate records for this. Thank you for helping in this also, much love.
  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 153 Capable
    They did change PrincessFarewell, with the intent of re-balancing things (including the suggestion of stripping that singable aeon effect in-song Cantors get), but not sure how far they went with it. I don't recall the change to PrincessFarewell, and haven't seen anything put in its place since...
  • LorinaLorina Member Posts: 156 Gifted
    I hunted down the change:

    Announce News Post #2649  |  Sunday, October 9th, 2016
    o PrincessFarewell no longer causes aeon and stun; instead it gives a 
    new affliction, Echoes, which causes damage and afflictions from certain
    skills to be roughly doubled while in effect. Echoes cures by itself 
    after 12 seconds. Report 1164. 

  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 153 Capable
    'Celest=Steam, ego pressure as well? (Because best Dreamweaver as tert would be Aquachemancers, so expand on it more)' Idea I had for Celest's focus on improvement towards a more synergy based approach, rather than the hodgepodge the skills currently seem oriented.

    Comes to means of Ego pressure, Celest already has THE strongest methods with a number of their classes, from the rest of the orgs. So really just means tweaking a few of the classes lacking a means to pressure and capitalize on, and a route opens up to some sort of unified approach to work collectively. Note when I said ego pressure, I mean to include methods of doing an ego kill...some classes at 50% like Dreamweavers, some at 25% for others such as the more physically based Classes....NOT just to tell you to pressure Ego then stare at the target as they sip bromides but aren't really bothered. Some skills may need to be tweaked though, any method of drain with the long stun and def stripping on Inquisition for instance...but such means you lot already have a strong potential if you wanted to take that route, to build upon. 

    What are your thoughts, Celestians?
  • TylwythTylwyth Member Posts: 1,640 Mythical
    Monks would use Harmony'a heartfire for this?
    FOR pposters who aren't steingrim:

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  • AuriellaAuriella Member Posts: 24 Capable
    edited April 10
    Lorina said:
    Karmichealing causes the angel to give a 60 second defensive debuff on the Angel's target, and for the duration, any Healing sips is given to the angel's owner at 25% power. Only one of these debuffs can be in effect and it can't be cured other than waiting the 60 seconds.
    Karmic Healing can be cast on anyone, including the Celestine themselves for a stronger health sip.

    Preserve is best pulled of with a Tahtetso as they can build and stack dust affs which allows an Aquamancer to stick chills/frozen.

    An Aquachem Dreamweaver is quite frankly the strongest Dreamweaver you can get, as their passives also drain ego alongside active drains and dream entities which is also what makes them someone okay Telepaths though that path is incredibly difficult due to Telepathy being the way it is.

    In my honest opinion,  Celest has some synergy though not much, the best synergy in Celest is a Tahto/Aquamage with the other classes just adding pressure.

  • NelrasNelras Member Posts: 134 Gifted
    Shango said:
    'Celest=Steam, ego pressure as well? (Because best Dreamweaver as tert would be Aquachemancers, so expand on it more)' Idea I had for Celest's focus on improvement towards a more synergy based approach, rather than the hodgepodge the skills currently seem oriented.

    Comes to means of Ego pressure, Celest already has THE strongest methods with a number of their classes, from the rest of the orgs. So really just means tweaking a few of the classes lacking a means to pressure and capitalize on, and a route opens up to some sort of unified approach to work collectively. Note when I said ego pressure, I mean to include methods of doing an ego kill...some classes at 50% like Dreamweavers, some at 25% for others such as the more physically based Classes....NOT just to tell you to pressure Ego then stare at the target as they sip bromides but aren't really bothered. Some skills may need to be tweaked though, any method of drain with the long stun and def stripping on Inquisition for instance...but such means you lot already have a strong potential if you wanted to take that route, to build upon. 

    What are your thoughts, Celestians?
    Not a celestian, and greater consideration should be given to the people using the skills of course, but why steam? Just because there is potential room for ego pressure, doesn't mean that the skillset has to fall back on steam afflictions. Looking at the table posted earlier, both slush and dust afflictions have more support than steam. You suggested a thematic synergy between steam and ego in the Hallifax thread, @Shango, but wouldn't it be better to go with the existing themes within the org as well as building towards existing kill methods such as preserve, and to develop the mechanical synergies to support this?
  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 153 Capable
    Indeed it would. Suggest them, and I doubt there'd be much issue with it. Tried to make each org somewhat unique with their designs, if sharing a bit...this stage is just the brainstorming phase anyway, so nothing would be set in stone till it's hashed out to be workable or not.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,939 Transcendent
    edited April 11
    I don't think Celest needs any special makeover unless they want to redistribute power away from Aquamancy (totally understandable).

    As it is, Preserve is a very compelling killpath available to New Celest - we've got Tahtetso and Paladins that can use mactans as well as pin down, we've got an Aquamancer (Preserve obviously, but also drowning damage, stuns etc.), we've got Cantors who are more damage-focused than even other bards (PrincessFarewell, CrusaderCanto).

    This leaves Celestines and Aquachemantics a little on the fringe, but they can still contribute to health kills in a big way: Celestines and Aquachem can both force a vitals choice - will you die to Absolve, EternalSleep or Preserve? Pick your poison kind of deal.

    EDIT: Problematic because it hinges on one class? That's life for Glomdoring and Hallifax, so it wouldn't be totally out of the ordinary. It's just that instead of Shadowdancers and Researchers, the keystone class in Celest is Aquamancer. Doesn't mean you can't change that, but the synergy is there if you want to keep rolling with it.

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