Org Class Synergy-Serenwilde

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Comments

  • NelrasNelras Member Posts: 128 Gifted
    My concern around that system is that it is built around everyone building a debuf, the ire, for one person to convert it to rage.
    That would then undo an amount of the work that has been done against the target and all the enemy would need to do to nullify it would be to gust the one person/remove them in some other way until their rage expires.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    Nelras said:
    My concern around that system is that it is built around everyone building a debuf, the ire, for one person to convert it to rage.
    That would then undo an amount of the work that has been done against the target and all the enemy would need to do to nullify it would be to gust the one person/remove them in some other way until their rage expires.
    With the MD idea I was thinking they'd mostly actually maintain their own rage, but like maybe the dark ability generates a small amount of ire on the target each tick that they can also convert.

    Sorta popping each class at a different focus along a spectrum of ire <-> rage?
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  • MinkahmetMinkahmet Member Posts: 72 Apprentice
    edited April 6
    Lycidas said:


    Here's what I have, I'm missing the Crone for Moondancers.
    Crone is missing the recklessness affliction in your table. In the Others section of MD, you're missing defense stripping. It's also a Moon totem specific set "Dark"/"Darkmoon" that strips defs and gives a mental too now that I'm recalling what it did when I was one.

  • NelrasNelras Member Posts: 128 Gifted
    Ok, that does alleviate that concern somewhat Saran. It does however raise the issue of what happens if Seren decides to take part in some combat one day and finds that they only have classes that are primarily rage(or ire) generators and none of the other type. While it could be solved with classflexing, I don't believe that it is a good idea to design things so that people have to change classes if they want to be useful (see: mages who don't get to meld).
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    edited April 6
    Nelras said:
    Ok, that does alleviate that concern somewhat Saran. It does however raise the issue of what happens if Seren decides to take part in some combat one day and finds that they only have classes that are primarily rage(or ire) generators and none of the other type. While it could be solved with classflexing, I don't believe that it is a good idea to design things so that people have to change classes if they want to be useful (see: mages who don't get to meld).
    Yeah fair, I guess I expect that there's kinda a prioritisation?

    Like, it should be more useful for a HS druid or Spiritsinger to be the one working with ire, but if they're not present there's still some use to the Moondancers and Shofangi. (I think WW might actually sit on the rage side, and Serenguard seems like it'd be tied to totems choice)

    I'm kinda imaging that they could maybe do a risky thing where they push themselves to the high end of rage so they can use more rage consuming abilities before needing to generate some more? It's just finding that balance where that's a useful option in solo or when no one else needs the ire. (Could also set it up so they "skim off the top" even when an ire focused person is present)


    edit: for some reference, the rage thing I'm imagining is like the heat mechanic Machinists (XIV), Elementalist (SWL), and Holosmiths (GW2) utilise.
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  • EstarraEstarra Administrator, Moderator Posts: 1,069 Creator
    I'm really impressed by these org class synergy threads and just want to say if you guys come up with a fairly clean plan, we'll definitely look at implementation. (Though please note that the demesne system is getting a big rework so don't spend too much time worrying about that at this time.)
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  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Three Lakes, WIMember Posts: 2,909 Transcendent
    I actually think the concept of "spirits" is pretty universal in the Serenwilde. There's the obvious connection between the Ancestors and the Listeners (and the ancestors themselves are one of the primary unique concepts of the Serenwilde), the Wodewoses have their totem spirits and believe that the Verdant Land itself is inspirited, alive with spiritual energy and presence, of which the Great Moon-and-Hart is but one manifestation and facet. The Serenguard tacitly understood the Warrior Spirits to reside in the Spirit Realm/Plane. The fae are spirits. I know almost nothing about the Sowers though. So incorporating a unifying theme of "spirits", as long as its not a focus that resembles just one understanding too much could work. We know that the Ancestors and the way they communicate and exist, tied to the Serenwilde, isn't the same as necromancy. There's something else at work. What is it that impregnates the Serenwilde and its people with such spiritual energy?

    I've always liked the idea that there are secrets and ancient powers buried in the Serenwilde Forest; that the forest is dangerous not because it's malevolent or evil, but because as the oldest forest in the world it has seen more, absorbed more, grown more; and the secrets it has gathered, whether that's knowledge, artifacts, strange energy, give it an unpredictable power.

    Of course, there's nothing that says we have to take something already existing and build our synergy concept around it. We can always create something new and incorporate it into the already existing Serenwilde mythos.
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,124 Transcendent
    There's a defensive person in this thread that is going out of their way to be aggressive against someone who is simply doing some bookkeeping and trying to help suggest things.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 152 Capable
    Then let's focus back onto the main topic at hand and proceed onward.

    So a spirit based focus, both for flavor of messages of attacks, as well as perhaps curative focus to pile on from various classes in Seren?
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    The initial idea I had for a synergy was along the lines of a reverence and wrath of the spirits. Spiritsingers could have a change to their haunting to apply the wrath, Hartstone replacing allergies with a building wrath for their enemies daring to encroach upon Nature, Wildewood having an on-hit (getting hit) effect that all chemancers/woods have that builds this wrath. Totems (Moon) can change Wane to bathe enemies in the Mother's light to build the wrath. Then it could be used to trigger the built-up wrath to cause it to be used up for an insta-kill. Kind of like Night's ShadowTwist, but everyone has a way to build up the wrath and after whatever threshold is achieved can be MOONDANCE WANING <target> PERSECUTE or something like that.

    Obviously this is only currently idea'd to give another kill method to Moondancers and Serenguard (Moon) but as Estarra said, I'm not trying to focus on Harstone/Wildewood due to the incoming changes. If we can get a synergy idea built up first, then they have something to reference.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    Estarra said:
     (Though please note that the demesne system is getting a big rework so don't spend too much time worrying about that at this time.)
    Except the melders are logically part of the org synergy so building things with an idea of where they could slot in gives direction to the melder overhaul, conversely if the previous discussions serenwilde has had on the topic are being implemented then we already have some beginnings to synergy
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  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Three Lakes, WIMember Posts: 2,909 Transcendent
    I like the idea of a mechanic called "wrath", whatever it ends up being.
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    Everiine said:
    I've always liked the idea that there are secrets and ancient powers buried in the Serenwilde Forest; that the forest is dangerous not because it's malevolent or evil, but because as the oldest forest in the world it has seen more, absorbed more, grown more; and the secrets it has gathered, whether that's knowledge, artifacts, strange energy, give it an unpredictable power.

    Of course, there's nothing that says we have to take something already existing and build our synergy concept around it. We can always create something new and incorporate it into the already existing Serenwilde mythos.
    This is part of why i actually place it more as the forest than the spirits. I kinda see the forest as increasingly like an unawakened Maeve, but it’s not just the fae spirits. It’s the ancestors, the mortals, even the gods of the wilde that are all connected to and strengthening “The Forest”. 
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  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    Shango said:
    Then let's focus back onto the main topic at hand and proceed onward.

    So a spirit based focus, both for flavor of messages of attacks, as well as perhaps curative focus to pile on from various classes in Seren?
    I’d need to dig out my logs but I’m fairly sure one of our other brainstorms suggested looking into a method to link physical and mental. Creating a synergy between the existing more physical focuses of ww and shofangi and the more mental focus of the mds 
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  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    Shaddus said:
    There's a defensive person in this thread that is going out of their way to be aggressive against someone who is simply doing some bookkeeping and trying to help suggest things.
    I mean, really my favourite part is that we're now up to two posts (just in this thread) by, I assume, the latter which demonstrates they're ignoring discussions about suggestions from others (as they were called out on).

    Like, the latest post from Lycidas seems to present a reskinned variation of "ire" as what they've actually being talking about all along with their idea to make Serens "synergy focus around spiritual afflictions!?" (without just saying, "oh yeah I had a similar idea"). 

    And now it would seem, discussion on different ideas are being deemed "off-topic"
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  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    edited April 7
    Saran, I'm just going to be blunt because apparently you need it. I didn't ignore the posts, I didn't say this is all my idea, and nor did I suggest spiritual afflictions. You're impeding progress rather than aiding with your misguided attempts to discredit me. I clearly read the posts and added onto it, since nothing more was said than, "We could generate a wrath synergy". Quit being vindictive for the sake of it, nobody here wants to read you constantly being after one individual.
  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 152 Capable
    Back on target, if you all would, mm? This is a serious conversation that needs to be had after all. Take it to DMs for further comments one way or the other.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    edited April 7
    Shango said:
    Back on target, if you all would, mm? This is a serious conversation that needs to be had after all. Take it to DMs for further comments one way or the other.
    Perhaps then you should respond to the comments and suggestions?

    This isn't the first time this topic has been raised as far as Serenwilde skills have gone, this is why I'm going through to repost those ideas here, ideas that have already seen interest from serens of varying levels of interest in lore and combat.


    Again. Afaik, one of the main reasons these concepts haven't already started being envoyed is because the impression was the melder overhaul wasn't going to be taking this long and that it would give us the core mechanic to work with in other classes.
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  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 152 Capable
    Not an admin, just another who can Envoy. And not familiar enough with the Serenwilde to be offering 'YOU SHOULD DO THIS' at this time, nor would such be welcome, mm? I won't be using the skills, might be a bad idea to have ME being the one offering too much direction in this, seen a lot of what armchair dictation can do to ruin just about everything, and why I made these threads to begin with FOR each org.

    This is more for the sake of those who actually use the skills, to give input and decide what they may, or may not, feel comfortable having their skills oriented around. This is the early stages of such a movement, so that WHEN the mage rework is done, A) its implementation can build upon what is the desired method of synergy for your org to be included in its changes, and B) you lot can have at least some control over the nature of that aim. Matching up to a suitable mechanic like Bleed is rough, admittedly, but baby steps.

    Honestly, as has been pointed out if with a bit of negativity in many other threads before this current effort, the best synergy would come from pressure that comes from multiple angles. Say your Spiritual+Physical redefining focuses that has been suggested, great start. Spirit affs:

    Spiritual Afflictions (Smoke, Soothing Steam):
    achromaticaura  disloyalty      jinx            pacifism        timewarp
    aeon            egovice         luminosity      powerspikes     warpedaura
    deaf            healthleech     manabarbs       slickness

    Timewarp is out, Hallifax only. Most will be best suited for the nonphys classes like Moondancers, Spiritsingers and to a lesser degree Hartstone. As tested with Magnagora and our 'lol just use more dust affs' nonsense, this also isn't a good focus on its own towards netting the kill....whatever pressure is applied, outside of sticking aeon (which shouldn't be the focus, again the Hallifax theme), this isn't going to do it on its own. That established, we want a vitals pressure to better push for their deaths...got your picks of mana, ego, and health to a degree. Powerspikes and Manabarbs coming from multiple sources, means to keep them from being cured easily aside from Octave from your bards, could be suggested inclusions into a given class...likely Shofangi to assist in support for the first two, new access to said spiritual affs to Moondancers (such as Mother given a dual purpose of healing the MD when needed as well as popping one of the spirit affs). Coupled off this, each spirit aff present, you can get auras for Serenguard and Shofangi stance strikes to proc a passive drain on the target per hit for as many of said affs present from one of the three vitals, which can be discussion if mana for toading, ego for a half-ego kill akin to EternalSleep, or just straight health would suit best for the Wilde. I might go with either Mana for toads or Health for the primal nature of the forests ability to just tear apart their prey, but up to however your theme is oriented for yourselves.

    The phys classes also working on applying spirits affs as well as capable of capitalizing on them could be done, but for Power...Warriors get that, forget what Serenguards was called. Next two strikes, two affs per hit? Though since pushback about phys classes applying spiritual affs, might be a tad difficult to argue. But with Totems, that may be the exception and how to thematically bond the spiritual to the physical. Stag and Moon both could get at least one of their skills altered to apply said affs from a pool (changed from whatever said skill might do now, like AncestralCurse or Moon whatever, I don't know your skills at all :( ), and if already present, does damage to a selected vital. Shofangi can have their final execute altered to INCLUDE (not replace their current, but as an alternative set of requirements to) this same setup. Harder for the phys to apply, but CAN capitalize upon/make it harder to have them cured by their own pressure application....nonphys classes have an easier time applying, and once done can have their methods do scaling damage based on number present or give a nice boost towards a given kill method. Specifics are the sort of thing that really needs input from those with the skills to comment on.


    All this, I'm just spitballing here, what are your thoughts, all of you? Build on it, tear it apart, replace wholesale I don't care...make it work for yourselves, that is the whole point.
  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    Chiming in with Shango since we were discussing some ideas while he was typing this up, so just going to add some more onto it with clarifications.

    Stag - AncestralCurse will remain the same but have an added benefit of making use of current spiritual afflictions on the enemies. Do a vital damage (health, mana, ego) on each tick per spiritual affliction.

    Moon - Moonfire can now do additional bonus damage based on the number of spiritual afflictions (health, mana, ego)

    Shofangi - Add bonus 50 hemorrhaging per spiritual affliction on the target to count towards the Burst threshold to weaken the target for Crunch.
  • NelrasNelras Member Posts: 128 Gifted
    While ultimately it should be up to the people who actually use the skills, I would have to question why there is the focus on steam afflictions.

    Looking at the chart listing current afflictions, steam is the least populated. From a flavour standpoint, the 'non-physical' classes already dealing with 'spirits' i.e. moondancer and spiritsinger are focused more on mental afflictions (with the exception of the aspects of the spiritsingers which are common to all bards), while the physical classes obviously do physical and internal afflictions.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    Shango said:
    Honestly, as has been pointed out if with a bit of negativity in many other threads before this current effort, the best synergy would come from pressure that comes from multiple angles. Say your Spiritual+Physical redefining focuses that has been suggested, great start. Spirit affs:


    Spiritual Afflictions (Smoke, Soothing Steam):
    achromaticaura  disloyalty      jinx            pacifism        timewarp
    aeon            egovice         luminosity      powerspikes     warpedaura
    deaf            healthleech     manabarbs       slickness

    Just to reconfirm, the focuses that have previously been suggested by Serens is Mental+Physical.

    The mental here is because it follows the mythology surrounding the Moon being responsible for lunacy, with the physical being linked to the White Hart. The affliction table heavily reflects with how far the numbers of mental and physical affs we have outstrips the spiritual. It's also represented in how succumb isn't just a timed aff but has interactions with how many mental affs the target has and is increased when more are added.


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  • LycidasLycidas Member Posts: 555 Master
    Just rolling with what Shango was asked to comment on and attempting to make another avenue that isn't stacking mental afflictions with succumb to toadcurse. If what Shango is suggesting is considered, this opens up another avenue of kill other than just relying on a MD with Succumb to be your executioner.
  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 152 Capable
    Well mental aff table then, works just the same.  We'll go with the slush list from AFFS LIST, does that work?
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    Shango said:
    Well mental aff table then, works just the same.  We'll go with the slush list from AFFS LIST, does that work?
    Sure, it just seems simpler to kinda maintain the identities somewhat (Moondancers make you crazy, Shofangi/WW beat you to a pulp) and then find ways to make them synergise.
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  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 152 Capable
    A step in the right direction is still progress at least.

    Crazy how, tempInsanity?
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    Shango said:
    A step in the right direction is still progress at least.

    Crazy how, tempInsanity?
    There was disappointment when it was being looked at cause that's a Gaudi mechanic so we couldn't really utilise it.
    But I think that it's why Moon has so many mental affs, it reflects that concept of "lunacy" which now is linked to their kill method through succumb.
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  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    The issue I come to with a direct translation is that, it's kinda useless for a MD personally to be able to do stuff with physical affs if they can't really do anything with them personally.

    Ire/Rage are a potential method for achieving this because it can act like a bridge. In theory you could set it up so the mental things that MD is doing can help the physical things WW is going through that connection.
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  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 152 Capable
    'Serenwilde=Bleeding, mana and slush pressure' Was an idea I had for what Serenwilde might be able to focus on in a singular path, for a collective synergy. Bleeding, already proved how good that is, and I see no reason that only one forest gets it when the primal forces of any natural leaning org would be prone to heavily bleeding out their prey.

    Mana and Slush (mental) cure focus seemed appropriate due to also having access to Toading, jumps off the Bleed focus above as well, and meshes with Saran's suggestions of Mental aff pools being the better focus to work off of. Would mean not much work is needed to orient all the classes within to have means to utilize. MD's already have the 50% toading threshold, can give Spiritsingers, Serenguard, and even Shofangi a 25% mana threshold to work off, beyond their already existing kill methods, with Spiritsingers likely adjusted to lean more heavily on the slush affs to further weaken the target/s and gain a special kill of their own in addition.

    This is just a bare-bones idea suggestion here, needing a lot more fleshing out to actually work, so what do you all think for it as a foundation to build off of?
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,136 Transcendent
    For me I'm hesitant on a level relating more to other issues we've had with maintaining a separate identity from Glomdoring. 
    Like, yeah it's been shown to be a workable path for synergy no doubting that but just doesn't sit quite right? 

    Difficulties arguing against an alliance with Glom previously come to mind also, shared synergy seems like another point in favour of working together that makes that potentially more difficult.
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