Mage Revamp

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Comments

  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 245 Capable
    I think chems are being brought up because linking to the melder increases the range of the meld. Would linked chems increase the 'range' of the actual node effect (aka protection bypass) or?
  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 152 Capable
    I imagine, remove the mage, supermob can be harmed...mage returns, gotta regust the mage. Or remove them via bubble, timecast, maze, etc.
  • DeichtineDeichtine Member Posts: 2,008 Transcendent
    Its hard to really judge it without knowing the effects then.


    Would really need to see some examples of what the minor and major effects would be to make a fair assessment on it.

  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 245 Capable
    The meld effects are seemingly the same for now, regardless if on a node or not. The node only matters, thus far, if it bypasses the protection scroll or not as far as effects go. The current goal is to get an agreeable meld situation, then worry about effects, which I agree with.
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 237 Creator
    Deichtine said:
    Its hard to really judge it without knowing the effects then.


    Would really need to see some examples of what the minor and major effects would be to make a fair assessment on it.

    Why? 

    You can't branch out until you get a sturdy base. The effects will be designed with the base in mind, not the other way around.
  • ShangoShango Member Posts: 152 Capable
    Orael said:
    Deichtine said:
    Its hard to really judge it without knowing the effects then.


    Would really need to see some examples of what the minor and major effects would be to make a fair assessment on it.

    Why? 

    You can't branch out until you get a sturdy base. The effects will be designed with the base in mind, not the other way around.
    I presume she meant AFTER you get the base meld-node design setup and decided on, rather than prior. Just a matter of timing throwing off her meaning.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,134 Transcendent
    Makai said:
    I think chems are being brought up because linking to the melder increases the range of the meld. Would linked chems increase the 'range' of the actual node effect (aka protection bypass) or?
    Linking only affects the Woodchems radius, power is enhanced if you're in a linked meld. The reason Woodchems keep coming to mind for me is that it's the "Mage revamp" not "Melding revamp" it's unclear how far it's going to go.
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  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,134 Transcendent
    Shango said:
    Orael said:
    Deichtine said:
    Its hard to really judge it without knowing the effects then.


    Would really need to see some examples of what the minor and major effects would be to make a fair assessment on it.

    Why? 

    You can't branch out until you get a sturdy base. The effects will be designed with the base in mind, not the other way around.
    I presume she meant AFTER you get the base meld-node design setup and decided on, rather than prior. Just a matter of timing throwing off her meaning.
    Potential effects can give context to the strong vs weak effect aspect of the core design? Particularly because it's the option that's not the same as what we have now.

    Maybe something like
    Weak: Procs to move people towards a node
    Strong: Makes it difficult to leave the node room
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  • EnyaEnya Member Posts: 380 Gifted
    Makai said:
    I think chems are being brought up because linking to the melder increases the range of the meld. Would linked chems increase the 'range' of the actual node effect (aka protection bypass) or?
    Neither of the takes on what woodchem links do is precisely correct.

    Being in the room with a linked person gives the woodchem increased range on their bombs. Being in the meld of a linked melder gives the woodchem +10% damage on their bombs. 

    Neither of these will be appreciably changed by changing to nodes, though doing so might open up different avenues of design (such as woodchems being able to merge with avatars in rooms the melder isn't in to do.. stuff?). 
  • EnyaEnya Member Posts: 380 Gifted
    I have two overall concerns with the new design concept.

    First, while it will make it somewhat less of a headache as you won't NEED a melder to counter a melder and therefore people aren't pushed into a class they hate... it also seems like it will make it easier for large groups to shut out smaller groups. Whereas before the bigger group made it easier to outright kill an enemy melder, it was only really easier to break the meld if the bigger group also had more melders. Having more melders actually would then *lessen* the impact of the large group, as their primaries basically don't stack so once they establish a meld they will have less of a overwhelming force than they would if they held the meld with only one melder and everyone else using a full compliment of class skills. With leylines, the larger group gains the meld breaking benefit by virtue of having more damage attacks without needing to burn primary skills on melding classes. 


    Second, I do fear that effects will be left basically the same and the entire project called done - tossed to players to finish by an increasingly slow and restricted envoy system, something that will be impossible. Along with the above concern I think that moving entirely away from a melding system or going with a more thorough reimagination of the class would be for the best, both short and long term. 
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 237 Creator
    The effects will not be left the same, they will be getting overhauled as well. I thought that was clear, but in case it wasn't, it should now be.
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 237 Creator
    Regarding the first point, while we're reducing the need to have a melder, we're also increasing the difficulty in breaking melds. Yeah, a larger group may have more damage attacks, but that means they're damaging the avatar rather than killing the enemy team. Breaking nodes requires a channeled action from a melder. We're introducing strength to balance out the counterplay abilities. 

    Melders have always been about area control, that's the role they've been in and the role we'll want to keep them in. I don't think a more thorough redesign is in the cards at this time unless you're willing to wait even longer for any changes to come about. We're working off a base here that was thought about and designed over several months already, starting over will again take months to do.
  • KalnidKalnid Member Posts: 513 Fabled
    edited May 16
    I'm wondering if it would be good to extend node influence to a one room radius, leylines aside. Thinking of things like the museum in a future rift which is lots of single adjacent rooms and, while fairly small, would be a real nuisance to cover with nodes. On the other hand, that makes breaking into a node room way harder because you can't meld adjacent.
    Is the current plan for leyline rooms to block leyline formation from other melders? You said nodes can't be placed in them so I assume yes, but I'm uncertain. Naturally this wouldn't extend to the same mage.
    I'm definitely a little concerned about random path choice for equal distances, but I guess you can just avoid that by forcing it with putting a node in the middle?
    There's a lot of meld effects that interrupt channels right now. Would those be paused while a break channel is going on, or would you just have to time it so you don't get hit by meld effects in the middle of the break?
    edit: oh yeah enya mentioned this but chems being able to fuse with avatars would be Cool. I'm not sure how you'd do it in a balanced way and it might be a little outside scope but
  • MakaiMakai Member Posts: 245 Capable
    As an idea, perhaps make the channeling mage (the breaker) temporarily immune to the meld effects during the process? Not like there's any real way to game it, the breaker spends the entire time incapable of other actions to avoid the powers and would probably be faster to finish the channel than keep reseting it to have a party kill the avatar. Adds to the counterplay without having the annoyance of meld effects bypassing protection while you're trying to break it as a melder.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,124 Transcendent
    Enya said:
    Makai said:
    I think chems are being brought up because linking to the melder increases the range of the meld. Would linked chems increase the 'range' of the actual node effect (aka protection bypass) or?
    Neither of the takes on what woodchem links do is precisely correct.

    Being in the room with a linked person gives the woodchem increased range on their bombs. Being in the meld of a linked melder gives the woodchem +10% damage on their bombs. 

    Neither of these will be appreciably changed by changing to nodes, though doing so might open up different avenues of design (such as woodchems being able to merge with avatars in rooms the melder isn't in to do.. stuff?). 
    I may be mistaken, but a melder who is linked to a woodchem gets +1 meldable room.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • DrastrathDrastrath Member Posts: 3 Inept
    I believe chems linked to a melder have stronger bombs within the meld. Chems linked to other chems add to their bomb range. I could be mistaken though. 
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,134 Transcendent
    I guess for some clarity, what's the actual scope of the revamp?

    "Mage revamp" to me implies looking at the whole of the Mage and Druid archetypes. Melders, Woodchems, as well as their secondaries and tertiaries.

    Like, Woodchems exist (afaik) because there wasn't/isn't much point in being the second melder on your team. If that's not changing (or is even being reinforced) then a one over there wouldn't go astray.
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  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 237 Creator
    The scope of the revamp is melders, mostly their primary skillsets but we'll need to consider how the secondary and tertiary skillsets work with that.

    Woodchems might be something worthwhile to look at, but they operate differently and I'd rather focus on one thing at a time, so looking at them is not part of the scope at this time.
  • TridemonTridemon Member Posts: 671 Fabled
    Please, please, PLEASE remember to include the artifact runestones and dream motes into your calculations of the tertiaries and demesne interactions.
    I'm Lucidian. If I don't get pedantic every so often, I might explode.
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