gods don't have what I mentioned earlier: the ability to tell mortals when they are OOCly frustrated
I'm curious why this is taken as a given. Why can't you flex a little administrative muscle when a situation is getting out of hand? IRE policy? Tradition? I don't have a ton of experience interacting with IRE gods outside of an administrative capacity so I can hardly even imagine what these extreme scenarios entail. But it seems strange that an admin under abuse would have no recourse.
A simple answer to this is that it sounds too defensive. Imagine if gods got into disputes on forums every time a mortal complained about them, for example, or if when a mortal was getting irritating, a god just messaged them, "Look, can you cut that out? It was fun the first time but now it's getting exhausting, and my org is suffering for it." It's also dangerous to allow players to conflate what your god is thinking or feeling with what you, the player, are thinking and feeling. There's a divide between player and admin, and it has to exist in order for us to perform our roles well, but it has its downsides. Gods will generally give you hints if your behavior, whether it be OOC or IC, is uncomfortable for them.
Usually, when an admin feels frustration to the degree that it's a problem, they will talk to Estarra about how best to resolve the conflict. It's certainly what I have done. Each conflict is of course different, some being OOC and others being IC in nature, and so the resolutions aren't across-the-board. Some admin admittedly decide that the best answer is to leave their position, because they don't believe the situation will improve (though I would not assume that is the norm, by any means). The most extreme resolution to a conflict in Lusternia that I can recall is the Glomdoring Summit, and I was certainly not haven-side at that point!
One reason I like participating in the God Blogs is that I believe it gives us a way to convey our point of view without too dangerously skirting the IC and OOC lines. It allows us to engage in conversations like this one, and personally I think a lot of great discussion has been generated as a result.
In my opinion, the Divine should not be too preoccupied with the notion that they are conventional players of the game; the fact of the matter is they are administrators, not just players. They have a specific role to play in the infrastructure of the game, in and out of their God role, and it comes with the realization that Lusternia is not just a community, it is a business. That business hinges on the social atmosphere and attitudes that they carry. They are for all intended purposes, representing the brand and vision of Lusternia. So while it is the case that the Divine have a certain advantage when it comes to in-game conflict, I believe some mindfulness to the aforementioned should always be present when interacting with the community. That may sound like a preferential bias that makes the volunteer position sound slavish, but I think anything less is a disservice.
I would point out, @Tetra, that it's a business most of the Divine do not directly benefit from. They are at least less obligated to provide a service to players than someone in a paid, customer-service related industry, since they do their 'jobs', presumably, for 'the fun of it.' And even within a paid customer-service industry, there is no financial compensation high enough to tolerate abuse or harassment. And that can be difficult to define or address when you can't speak directly to the ones causing the issue. The game should be fun for both sides. If it's not, there's a problem, period.
Edit: Also, many of those who become Gods spend or have spent money on the game themselves. From a business perspective, IRE has an interest in keeping them around, too.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
Reflecting on it, it's actually a shame there isn't a means for Divine to express OOC discomfort or frustration with something, the playerbase sees a Divine interacting with them and often safely assume that because they, the mortal, is enjoying this, the Divine must be too. Why wouldn't they, they're still interacting!
And because of that, the player(s) continue to go on, in the misguided understanding that everyone's having fun, because there's nothing to tell them otherwise. Especially when you have some players who enjoy being on the receiving end of Divine wrath. There's people who accept their characters are flawed, and don't want to win in every given situation, so they bite off more than they can chew, and OOCly they're laughing and talking amongst each other about how much fun they're having.
And yet I can pretty much assure that in all cases of misunderstanding, if they knew the Divine was getting unhappy with the situation, they'd gladly call it quits. People assume that if something stops being fun, people simply stop playing along, rather than continue to perpetuate their own frustration. There's no malice in what mortal players are doing, it's akin to the family dog jumping all over you, and misunderstanding your flailing and strange noises as playing with them.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I pretty much laugh and talk about how much fun I'm having whenever my characters get exploded in most games, this notwithstanding. Some of the most fun I had was when people actually cared about me long enough to hang me for talking bad about Morgfyre, for example.
In my opinion, the Divine should not be too preoccupied with the notion that they are conventional players of the game; the fact of the matter is they are administrators, not just players. They have a specific role to play in the infrastructure of the game, in and out of their God role, and it comes with the realization that Lusternia is not just a community, it is a business. That business hinges on the social atmosphere and attitudes that they carry. They are for all intended purposes, representing the brand and vision of Lusternia. So while it is the case that the Divine have a certain advantage when it comes to in-game conflict, I believe some mindfulness to the aforementioned should always be present when interacting with the community. That may sound like a preferential bias that makes the volunteer position sound slavish, but I think anything less is a disservice.
I would point out, @Tetra, that it's a business most of the Divine do not directly benefit from. They are at least less obligated to provide a service to players than someone in a paid, customer-service related industry, since they do their 'jobs', presumably, for 'the fun of it.' And even within a paid customer-service industry, there is no financial compensation high enough to tolerate abuse or harassment. And that can be difficult to define or address when you can't speak directly to the ones causing the issue. The game should be fun for both sides. If it's not, there's a problem, period.
Edit: Also, many of those who become Gods spend or have spent money on the game themselves. From a business perspective, IRE has an interest in keeping them around, too.
When I mentioned a player should not addle a volunteer, I mean literally that it should be quite impossible. If you cannot handle criticism or the nuances of being in authority, then do not take that position. Plain and simple.
The game should be fun for the players, but there is a problem when administrators(hi, this word) are playing to 'win' as any normal player would. That is not the attitude I believe any volunteer should have, ever.
So yes, everyone should have fun. But how you go about that fun is crucial. If you are a Guild Master, and you have responsibilities to fulfill, does that mean you subsidize them for the sake of your own fun? Maybe. But eventually that could(keyword, could) lead to you not having that position anymore. There are overarching consequences and results that come about through your actions. If you find the responsibilities and duties of being a volunteer lead you towards a most-of-the-times state of Fun, great, be a volunteer.
If a Divine's ego is really sore because Munsia or some such other person is griefing your godrealm, there's a bigger problem at hand.
I mean really...You are immortal, you can't die, can't lose demigod/divinity, are all-powerful, everyone adores and loves you by admonishing corpses and other shinies. What could possibly make your heart hurt so bad. For regular players, the feeling of loss is immediate and very real. I don't think it's fair to compare the two on the same plateaus, because they are not the same plateau.
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
I couldn't disagree with you more, Tetra, and quite frankly I find your opinion and the way you deliver it borderlining on obnoxious.
Gods will always win against mortals, because quite frankly it's the equivalent of a pea shooter vs an Apache helicopter. You can't hit them and they can blast you from a comfortable distance at their leisure. If you have an issue with the way the game is set up with that imbalance, then find another game. It's not a case that they're "Playing to win" but if you poke the lion through its cage, don't complain when it bites your arm off. There aren't any admin in the game who are power tripping.
Ultimately while in game they are superior in power and ability, their players are as human as everyone else, they get frustrated with the same things we do, and they get annoyed at the same behaviours. Being an admin doesn't mean you pull your shirt open and have a Superman logo underneath, where all criticism can be deflected with so much of a real life wavehand dismissal. The admin of this game have significantly more patience than players, because frankly most of the time we are all to willing to express our displeasure through wanton killing, verbal smackdown, or mechanical punishment. You sure don't see anything close to the same frequency of divine intervention in terms of zapping, disfavouring or other suitable punishments.
The biggest difference between a GM position and an admin is that GMs are answerable to their guild. Admin are answerable to Estarra, and have no obligation to justify their actions or time spent to you. If you are displeased with your GM, you have the right to vote someone else you think is going to be a better fit for the position, but if you have concerns with an admin, take them up with Estarra. Because truth is, we haven't half a clue what the Divine are up to, they don't sit in clans with us and talk about personal lives and how they might be busy this week. They don't talk about the projects they are possibly working on in game, and why they can't be around on beck and call.
And ultimately if Estarra is content with their job, so should we all. If you have a problem with that, find another game.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I couldn't disagree with you more, Tetra, and quite frankly I find your opinion and the way you deliver it borderlining on obnoxious.
Gods will always win against mortals, because quite frankly it's the equivalent of a pea shooter vs an Apache helicopter. You can't hit them and they can blast you from a comfortable distance at their leisure. If you have an issue with the way the game is set up with that imbalance, then find another game. It's not a case that they're "Playing to win" but if you poke the lion through its cage, don't complain when it bites your arm off. There aren't any admin in the game who are power tripping.
Ultimately while in game they are superior in power and ability, their players are as human as everyone else, they get frustrated with the same things we do, and they get annoyed at the same behaviours. Being an admin doesn't mean you pull your shirt open and have a Superman logo underneath, where all criticism can be deflected with so much of a real life wavehand dismissal. The admin of this game have significantly more patience than players, because frankly most of the time we are all to willing to express our displeasure through wanton killing, verbal smackdown, or mechanical punishment. You sure don't see anything close to the same frequency of divine intervention in terms of zapping, disfavouring or other suitable punishments.
The biggest difference between a GM position and an admin is that GMs are answerable to their guild. Admin are answerable to Estarra, and have no obligation to justify their actions or time spent to you. If you are displeased with your GM, you have the right to vote someone else you think is going to be a better fit for the position, but if you have concerns with an admin, take them up with Estarra. Because truth is, we haven't half a clue what the Divine are up to, they don't sit in clans with us and talk about personal lives and how they might be busy this week. They don't talk about the projects they are possibly working on in game, and why they can't be around on beck and call.
And ultimately if Estarra is content with their job, so should we all. If you have a problem with that, find another game.
My opinion doesn't require you to agree with it.
I am not talking about winning in the context of mortals vs Divine, I am talking about the attitude of 'winning' altogether. Why? Because that attitude is not conducive to nurturing RP across the game world. Facilitating roleplay within an org is an undertaking for any volunteer. You are not in your position to win the game, you are in the position to support and foster healthy roleplay & org environments, and by extension expanding the game world.
This has nothing to do with actual GMs and I don't know what you're trying to get at, it is a colloquialism. Exchange that with GA and the point is still illustrated.
Your logic is also flawed. Just because Estarra is happy with something personally, does not mean you should also automatically be happy. That's like saying if your boss is happy, you should just be happy. It's nonsense. People who think for themselves critically analyze things for the sake of positive change. If you feel like admin should play with the intention of being better than such-and-such org, or crushing the playerbase into submission for the appeasement of their egos, you are nuts. Sorry.
On the topic of other games, I do not think such an attitude exists elsewhere. Admin are the highest authority of the game and people depend on them to be an unbiased, ethically-behaved channel. Playing to win as an admin is not unbiased, and it is definitely not ethical, no matter which way you slice it.
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
I feel that your attitude and opinion are absolutely terrible.
The "admin" that you are telling to "suck it up or quit" are the people who make the game fun for us. We, as players, have absolutely no "right" to make them feel miserable for our own enjoyment, with the expectation that they will just go along with it. They are not even getting paid; they volunteer their time themselves specifically to have fun with us, not in spite of us. It is a joint effort, where both parties working together create the best environment.
Poisoning the well is a Bad Idea. Demanding that they drink the poisoned water and like it is absurd.
I'm fairly sure that when gods talk about being frustrated with players, more often than not it has relatively little to do with IG activities like raids, and more to do with players acting OOC or having unreasonable expectations. It seems like @Tetra is the only person talking about an IC god-mortal relationship here.
That said, I agree with @Tetra to some degree, in that there should be some standards applied to god players in their roles as representatives for the game, paid or otherwise. For the most part, I'd say that they are applied, and are upheld, albeit unevenly sometimes.
I disagree with a lot of what I think are general policies, from what some admins (past and present) have said about why they do things, but (again for the most part) admins tend to be pretty good about keeping player frustrations more or less out of the game. I also disagree with some general attitudes that I sense coming from admins (some more than others) about what's worth spending time on, and reactions to criticism. If feasible, would spend my energy very differently if I were an admin, and hopefully respond differently to criticism of my work.
That doesn't mean I, you, or anyone else has to make things adversarial.
I feel that your attitude and opinion are absolutely terrible.
The "admin" that you are telling to "suck it up or quit" are the people who make the game fun for us. We, as players, have absolutely no "right" to make them feel miserable for our own enjoyment, with the expectation that they will just go along with it. They are not even getting paid; they volunteer their time themselves specifically to have fun with us, not in spite of us. It is a joint effort, where both parties working together create the best environment.
Poisoning the well is a Bad Idea. Demanding that they drink the poisoned water and like it is absurd.
You're putting words in my mouth, and poison. You taste vinegar, but I taste wine. This is a constructive conversation, not a match of rightness.
I believe the admin, with their position taken into consideration, do not need to internalize the goings-on of the players so personally. If they are fully conscious and understanding of the role they play in the game structure, what is there to be upset about?
It is a joint effort, but they are two different peripheries of gameplay, and as such require to be handled in two very different ways. To insinuate that an admin and player should behave or think the same way is simply wrong. I hold the administration to a higher standard of conduct. Wether they are getting paid or not is irrelevant and frankly, none of my business. Being a volunteer is a choice you make, and you can levy as much in spite of that fact, but it still stands; you decide to become a volunteer to improve Lusternia, so you do it.
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
Iirc, Tetra has always been an advocate of having everyone pretend to like it when people are bad/deliberately obnoxious/toxic roleplayers. So it's a little difficult to sympathise with this.
Similarly, I just don't see any examples today of admin power-playing or "playing to win". I really do trust all of them to be mature enough not to overstep their boundaries.
The administrators are held to a higher standard of conduct already. That was part of what Isune's whole post and discussion was about, finding the balance between character portrayal and the need to be good stewards of the game.
One thing I am super unbelievably frustrated about, however, is other Gods being able to read OTELLS and suspectedly OTITELLS. Talan ran into this problem also. Why is Mysrai or any other god allowed to read Isune's Order's conversations?
Yeah, that's a little weird. Part of that comes from not having a really solid (or at least, widely known and official) IC explanation of what's going on with channels, so there isn't really a fantastic way of talking about why it's wrong.
Iirc, Tetra has always been an advocate of having everyone pretend to like it when people are bad/deliberately obnoxious/toxic roleplayers. So it's a little difficult to sympathise with this.
Similarly, I just don't see any examples today of admin power-playing or "playing to win". I really do trust all of them to be mature enough not to overstep their boundaries.
Your conception of a bad roleplayer is subjective. I advocate mentoring and teaching people to become better roleplayers, not shunning them because they are noobs or boisterous. Lusternia has a certain roleplay culture that oftentimes excludes the snuggly or naive. That is not toxic. What is toxic is marginalizing a roleplayer based on your notion of them being 'bad'(also if you're curious, you are unable to sympathise with my comments because of your bias).
The administrators are held to a higher standard of conduct already. That was part of what Isune's whole post and discussion was about, finding the balance between character portrayal and the need to be good stewards of the game.
I completely agree with Isune's post and most of what I've said supports her angle. What I find jarring is the playerbase pushing the idea that volunteers aren't paid, therefore they can act however they please so long as they enjoy the game. That is a hilariously incorrect way to be an admin.
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
One thing I am super unbelievably frustrated about, however, is other Gods being able to read OTELLS and suspectedly OTITELLS. Talan ran into this problem also. Why is Mysrai or any other god allowed to read Isune's Order's conversations?
Mechanically, we are only able to read our own Order channels. We are not able to read the channels of other gods' Orders.
What I find jarring is the playerbase pushing the idea that volunteers aren't paid, therefore they can act however they please so long as they enjoy the game. That is a hilariously incorrect way to be an admin.
I don't think anyone is saying that. What they are saying is that you do not get to be the sole arbiter of their behavior either.
EDIT: Nor do you get to unilaterally decide why people do not sympathize with you.
What I find jarring is the playerbase pushing the idea that volunteers aren't paid, therefore they can act however they please so long as they enjoy the game. That is a hilariously incorrect way to be an admin.
I don't think anyone is saying that. What they are saying is that you do not get to be the sole arbiter of their behavior either.
EDIT: Nor do you get to unilaterally decide why people do not sympathize with you.
The act of agreement and disagreement is pure bias. I'm not superimposing a unilateral perspective on him. If you're offended by how I communicate that is also your own bias. Throughout the conversation I have stated, "In my opinion." I'm sharing, not exacting. Because I am a voice of one, you assume it is adversarial. I often play devil's advocate in group discussions and have no problem doing so, because I understand majority does not always mean objectivity.
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
It's starting to sound as if you are not quite sure of the meaning of the words you are using, even if the problem is only connotative. I'm looking at you, bias. I believe this is going to retreat soon into what I fondly call the "Revan defense", which signals an end to authentic discussion, if not constructive discussion. If nothing else, it's becoming contradictory and not worth the effort to untangle.
It's starting to sound as if you are not quite sure of the meaning of the words you are using, even if the problem is only connotative. I'm looking at you, bias. I believe this is going to retreat soon into what I fondly call the "Revan defense", which signals an end to authentic discussion, if not constructive discussion. If nothing else, it's becoming contradictory and not worth the effort to untangle.
It's not safe to assume much.
I've spent the last six months in a college course for counselling psychology that discusses bias daily. I have written more twelve-page essays on bias than you probably have used the word in your daily life.
Yes, assumptions are never safe.
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
Comments
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
>:D<
It's true, I really am you.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
It's true, I really am you.
It's true, I really am you.
And because of that, the player(s) continue to go on, in the misguided understanding that everyone's having fun, because there's nothing to tell them otherwise. Especially when you have some players who enjoy being on the receiving end of Divine wrath. There's people who accept their characters are flawed, and don't want to win in every given situation, so they bite off more than they can chew, and OOCly they're laughing and talking amongst each other about how much fun they're having.
And yet I can pretty much assure that in all cases of misunderstanding, if they knew the Divine was getting unhappy with the situation, they'd gladly call it quits. People assume that if something stops being fun, people simply stop playing along, rather than continue to perpetuate their own frustration. There's no malice in what mortal players are doing, it's akin to the family dog jumping all over you, and misunderstanding your flailing and strange noises as playing with them.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
Gods will always win against mortals, because quite frankly it's the equivalent of a pea shooter vs an Apache helicopter. You can't hit them and they can blast you from a comfortable distance at their leisure. If you have an issue with the way the game is set up with that imbalance, then find another game. It's not a case that they're "Playing to win" but if you poke the lion through its cage, don't complain when it bites your arm off. There aren't any admin in the game who are power tripping.
The biggest difference between a GM position and an admin is that GMs are answerable to their guild. Admin are answerable to Estarra, and have no obligation to justify their actions or time spent to you. If you are displeased with your GM, you have the right to vote someone else you think is going to be a better fit for the position, but if you have concerns with an admin, take them up with Estarra. Because truth is, we haven't half a clue what the Divine are up to, they don't sit in clans with us and talk about personal lives and how they might be busy this week. They don't talk about the projects they are possibly working on in game, and why they can't be around on beck and call.
And ultimately if Estarra is content with their job, so should we all. If you have a problem with that, find another game.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
It's true, I really am you.
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
The "admin" that you are telling to "suck it up or quit" are the people who make the game fun for us. We, as players, have absolutely no "right" to make them feel miserable for our own enjoyment, with the expectation that they will just go along with it. They are not even getting paid; they volunteer their time themselves specifically to have fun with us, not in spite of us. It is a joint effort, where both parties working together create the best environment.
Poisoning the well is a Bad Idea. Demanding that they drink the poisoned water and like it is absurd.
I disagree with a lot of what I think are general policies, from what some admins (past and present) have said about why they do things, but (again for the most part) admins tend to be pretty good about keeping player frustrations more or less out of the game. I also disagree with some general attitudes that I sense coming from admins (some more than others) about what's worth spending time on, and reactions to criticism. If feasible, would spend my energy very differently if I were an admin, and hopefully respond differently to criticism of my work.
That doesn't mean I, you, or anyone else has to make things adversarial.
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
Similarly, I just don't see any examples today of admin power-playing or "playing to win". I really do trust all of them to be mature enough not to overstep their boundaries.
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
It's true, I really am you.
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015
"A man's not dead while his name is still spoken." - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015