Does anyone actually enjoy peaced revolts?

Kai

The general consensus seems to be no, but I thought I'd come ask the forums.

My thoughts on peaced revolts are that they're pretty unfun by nature. Debating isn't a very well fleshed out mechanic and it's more or less impossible to keep someone in the room to debate you if they don't want to, so it devolves into a game of running in circles and groups spamming divert on mobs, sometimes for hours on end.

What do you think of peaced revolts? Are they a fun aspect of the game? If so or if not, why?

Gurashi

I think if I understood how to debate I might enjoy peaced revolts. My tactic for revolts when someone starts debating me is to ... run away!! I like not dying though, but yeah peaced revolts can last for -ages-... So, I'm on the fence. I like them, and don't like them. 

[edit] I should specify: revolts are one of my favorite things in Lusternia, when they're going my way and I'm able to attend them XD

Ghibli

I don't enjoy revolts, period. Peaced revolts do seem extra boring though (for the reasons you said). I agree with you there.

Lief

I like participating without being all but required to PK, so I like them.

I'd rather governments be looked at instead of removing peaced revolts entirely, as discussed in this thread.

I understand I might be in the minority here, though.

Kai

One thing I would like to note about peaced revolts vs unpeaced revolts:

CAMPAIGN SANCTUARY exists. If you don't want to PK in an unpeaced revolt, you do not actually have to, there's nothing stopping you from bunkering down in a room with a mob and keeping sanctuary up. However, if you do this, running away from a debate to avoid being shattered could mean getting killed.

Lief

Bunkering in sanctuary for someone who's not up for much PK doesn't really lend itself much to participating due to being tied to one room. That would probably be even more boring than peaced revolts as they are, wouldn't it?

Kai

Lief said:

Bunkering in sanctuary for someone who's not up for much PK doesn't really lend itself much to participating due to being tied to one room. That would probably be even more boring than peaced revolts as they are, wouldn't it?

I guess that depends how you want to look at it. I consider peaced revolts boring because they're quite simply not interactive, debates are easily avoidable and so it turns into a game of who has more watchers and diverters. Using sanctuary comes with benefits and potential consequences and, in my opinion, gives potential for interesting strategies, like having your non-coms posted up in sanctuary rooms watching mobs (which they'd be doing anyway in a peaced revolt) while the combatants do their combat thing, but with a real need to be able to debate and teleport/etc between sanctuaries, since leaving your sanctuary to avoid a shatter could very well mean death. Overall, I think the dichotomy of peaced revolts vs unpeaced revolts would be better off abandoned, but I'm sure not everyone shares that opinion either.

Alexandria

I prefer peaced revolts. I can win at debate. I cannot win at PK unless the other person happens to be silly enough to stand still while I DCC. 

What I don't prefer is when people force me to influence through negative feelings because they think I'm unimportant as a noncom, regardless of how often I turn around to help them with all kinds of things frequently. And on that note, refer back to Lief's link to the thread about governments.

Kali

I think the problem with peaced revolts is that debating is simply not effective because the other person can just walk away and reset the debate.

Enya

I think it's nice to have peaced revolts.

What I'd suggest is just to allow campagning in peaced results but with different effects than normal.

Have sanctuary do some kind of debate resistance effect so that you can hunker down and not be bothered overmuch by aggro people but have it negate the automatic conquest bonus to influencing that peaced revolts have.

Have conquest do a debate rubble effect making it easier to actually debate people and gain the extra influence benefits as well as lock out sanc in the room as normal.

Also just rework debating itself to be less miserable.

Ayisdra

Kai said:

One thing I would like to note about peaced revolts vs unpeaced revolts:

CAMPAIGN SANCTUARY exists. If you don't want to PK in an unpeaced revolt, you do not actually have to, there's nothing stopping you from bunkering down in a room with a mob and keeping sanctuary up. However, if you do this, running away from a debate to avoid being shattered could mean getting killed.

Campaign Crusades, I think, is just too good to use instead of Sanctuary in 90% of rooms of an unpeaced village. Giving up double points (and thus being able to claim a village in half the time) is something I wouldn't do unless there was no way around it and even then Sanctuary is only a single room, and doesn't help when traveling between rooms.

Like others, I like peaced revolts because I can actually help and not just be killed.

Jolanthe

100% prefer peaced revolts. Violent revolts are just open PK events like all the others that I am disinterested in.

Jolanthe

Also, sanctuary is kind of garbage because if you're forced into using that, you can't use crusade. The side that can crusade will always have an edge. If peaced revolts get removed, people will then complain about sanc and expect that to be removed too.

Violent revolts are rarely interesting and more often just one side locking down and shutting down the village entirely. Sometimes they -do- end up interesting when the pop is evenly spread/thin across all orgs, but most of the time they are even more boring than peaced revolts.

Daraius

Look at improving the debate mechanic, not at eliminating peaced revolts. There are enough pk conflict mechanics. 

Elexia

I like peaced revolts as well! Although as a fairly poor combatant, I certainly have a bias to them. I'd love to see more mechanics for debating, in particular something to counter escaping debaters since that seems so prevalent. Maybe campaign options related to debating? 

Everiine

When I still participated in revolts, the peaced ones were the only ones I liked because I suck/ed at combat. At least I could be useful in peaced revolts.

Kai

Just like to point out that at no point in this thread has anyone actually suggested deleting peaced revolts, not sure why so many people are jumping to that conclusion. If anything I'd like to see them reworked to be less of a multi-hour grindy hassle, or at very least something less common. Being stuck sitting around trying to influence mobs and running from unwinnable debates (looking at you, Laetitia) for 2+ hours really isn't my idea of fun gameplay. This could be approached in a few ways, many of which have been touched on in this thread. I like the idea of changing campaign behavior in peaced revolts to make it more possible to actually keep someone in a debate, or better yet just overhauling debate mechanics entirely, they've been a pretty flawed system from day 1. Here's another idea: Just make revolts a little easier to swing one way or another, so nobody winds up wanting to bash their head against a wall for 2-3 hours. I'd personally rather lose a shutout revolt than deal with a grueling multi-hour divertfest, maybe that's just me though.

Reworking government styles would be a good thing, but really isn't relevant to anything that's been brought up here, nerfing benign conquest (which should happen, IMO) isn't going to make it any less possible for someone to just walk away from a debate in a peaced revolt and keep it going for hours on end.

Maligorn

Bunkering in sanctuary is pretty much a free lose, and the enemy can CAMPAIGN CRUSADE in important rooms to deny sanctuaries outright. Sanctuaries are a very poor answer to non-peaced revolts for that reason, and because Crusades are too important to not do when in a non-peaced revolt.

Peaced revolts need to exist so orgs with less combat presence have a hope at claiming a village. Hallifax owns all the always-peaced villages because we're skilled at debate and strategy regarding shuffles etc.

Yes, it's possible to be better at debate than someone else, see: Justice Seal.

Jolanthe

The divert mechanic could use a look at too, perhaps. Maybe it should restore less ego each time it is used, and only reset to the max amount once the denizen resets/shuffles again. As is, people divert so much that they often divert away from their own allies - make over-diverting potentially punishable in any way would lead to faster resolutions and keep the gears turning.

Might also make denizens reset more quickly as the revolt goes on longer.

Uzriel

My issue with peaced revolts is they take forever and a day.

Anaklusmos

Make it so that running away from a debate will add a -2/20 to your max ego. So, eventually, constant running will make your ego so tiny that one hit will kill you. The -2/20 malus will wear off only when the revolts end.

Pysynne

I don't have an issue with peaced revolts. I have an issue with only one government type being worth using. I have an issue with quests/influencing mechanics not actually doing anything to sway village feelings. I have an issue with debating being so easy to run away from, I know cause I run away from it all the time cause it is so easy and I am terrible at it.

Esoneyuna

The largest problems with peaced revolts is that it favours curative classes over others. These differences are mitigated in PK (well lets ignore any pvp imbalance argument to keep it simple) by offensive skills on the others but that is blocked in peaced revolts. And then you of course have that debating is not engaging and easy to run from and it is very much a divert fest which often just relies on who has the best ping.

Peaced revolts would be interesting if they completely locked out class skills and you could somehow slow people down/prevent running. One thing is to add a hefty movement ego hit when you run from a debate. You can still run when you get only one hit but if you run after the debate went on for a while you would just burn out. Also probably have to think about preventing the dramatics pile on by multiple people but not sure how much a problem that actually is.

Kaizynne

I have a love-hate relationship with peaced revolts.

I am an avid debater and I do love peaced revolts for that reason, however, nobody ever tries and they just walk out because it's easier. There was a change that was pushed for a while ago that never got implemented, in order to make it harder to run from a debate (being that at present you can run from a debate without penalty).

Just my two cents worth.

Enya

If all that changes is that you can no longer run from a debate, either literally by locking out the option or by hefty penalties, that would be bad. There's a reason it hasn't been done in the past, knowing when to walk out is the only real strategic element to competitive debating (against someone who changes mindsets etc.). Beyond that it's basically all luck and building a high ego pool ahead of time.

Kaizynne

I am inclined to disagree. While I agree that there is a lot of rng in debating, I don't think the only 'strategic' element is walking out.

Nyana

Kaizynne said:

I am inclined to disagree. While I agree that there is a lot of rng in debating, I don't think the only 'strategic' element is walking out.

Just my experience, but when debating someone(who knows what they're doing), trying to out-debate them takes longer than it would to just ignore them and keep searching for open NPCs. Most people will just run. If you team up with someone, debating becomes somewhat more viable, IF you can lock them in one room... but you're still removing two people from influencing/searching for npcs to do that. I know some people can manage it consistently, but it's way too much effort and frustration, imo.

There needs to be some penalty to running, either to influencing gains in the village, ego hits, family points, or something else.

My only problem with peaced debates is how long they can take, same as what everyone else has said. And I'd rather just give up a village than resort to using campaign sanctuary - maybe because I've never seen it work for those using it. One other consideration of peaced revolts is they're much easier, most of the time, to teach newbies how to help in revolts.

The government issue, too, just... dittoing that.

Maligorn

https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/3749/government-in-lusternia#latest : ^)