Ascension - Wyrdenwood, Lag, Bragging Rights.

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  • MboagnMboagn Member Posts: 147 Master
    edited July 2020
    Treehug and Noose both do that, though, right? That is, deal one aff on their 10-p bomb list? It's broken bones for Treehug and entanglement for Noose.


    edit, I don't usually notice the bleeding because I'm dead before it ticks :D:D

    edit, I also don't find broken limbs to be as hindering as entanglement, although that may be mage bias.
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  • ParhelionParhelion Member Posts: 402 Fabled
    Mboagn said:
    Treehug and Noose both do that, though, right? That is, deal one aff on their 10-p bomb list? It's broken bones for Treehug and entanglement for Noose.
    Yes, and both can have runes affixed to them to afflict with more of their specified afflictions.

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  • ParhelionParhelion Member Posts: 402 Fabled
    edited July 2020
    Brawrur said:
    Our 10p bomb actually does less damage than one of our 5p bombs if it doesn't have any affs on it. 

    Also, yes, we can benefits to our 10p bomb, but any benefits a Wyrdenwood has have a +2 added on top. 

    If we had 5 chemists using the 10p bomb at the same time it'd deal about 10k damage, which would kill people without runes or whatever Celestine buffs you were throwing around. There'd also be no stun.

    5 Wyrdenwoods would do 20k damage and 5k bleeding, also stunning for 3s. I know that's slightly unfair since not everyone has the demi+ aff so let's bring that down a bit.

    To 15k with 5k bleeding and stuns. And that's if no one has the demi+ thing.


    So  let me ask you this. Serious questions.

    How many of your 'chemwoods were using attacks during your bombs building to try and stack afflictions to increase your damage? Did you coordinate on one person, or were you all over the place? What were your damage buffs like? On the flipside, what are your poison and cutting resistances like? 

    How many of you were holding Justice Karma blessings? How many Magnagorans kept up unholywater? I know I saw a log earlier of someone in Mag's unholywater hitting Kreon for 6k or so. 
    Her voice firm and commanding, Terentia, the Even Bladed says to you, "You have kept your oath to Me, Parhelion. You have sworn to maintain Justice in these troubled times."

    Yet if a boon be granted me, unworthy as I am, let it be for a steady hand with a clear eye and a fury most inflaming.
  • BrawrurBrawrur Member Posts: 25 Inept
    Treehug (Broken Limb) is Wyrdenwood's Noose (Entanglement) with 2 runes if a runist.

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  • BrawrurBrawrur Member Posts: 25 Inept
    edited July 2020
    Parhelion said:

    So  let me ask you this. Serious questions.

    How many of your 'chemwoods were using attacks during your bombs building to try and stack afflictions to increase your damage? Did you coordinate on one person, or were you all over the place? What were your damage buffs like? On the flipside, what are your poison and cutting resistances like? 

    How many of you were holding Justice Karma blessings? How many Magnagorans kept up unholywater? I know I saw a log earlier of someone in Mag's unholywater hitting Kreon for 6k or so. 
    I would weave reality in the room before dropping arson a number of times, Lisuarte had colour maelstrom up frequently, my cannon can set people ablaze and give them hallucinations if the timing is right. Things often don't quite line up and the speed at which mental affs and ablaze cures (since I can't stick either of those in any way) make things generally more random/unreliable. 

    I feel like I need to say this clearly, we co-ordinated pretty well. We didn't have a disaster in strategy or some flaw in our planning (other than not being Wyrdenwoods/having a mass exodus to Serenwilde to become Wildewoods). What your side did hardly counts as strategy either, it was just pressing the same one button over and over again.

    I'm always going to be 2k damage behind a Wyrdenwood no matter how many affs or how high my resistances and buffs are. 

    We did generally try to keep people with Unholywater but I didn't track it through the whole fight and a lot of the time it'd be triggered by a tiny tick of damage then go on cooldown. 


    Also wanted to make a comment regarding how Wyrdenwoods heal for every bleeding person in the room, and everything they do and all their org is centred around is bleeding and dust affs while Wildewoods have less of a cohesive synergy.


    Pretending that you didn't win this fight purely because of how powerful Wyrdenwood is would just be lying. Our frustration at this whole thing is because we've been saying that this was unfair for weeks/months now.
  • KaizynneKaizynne Member Posts: 22 Inept
    I mean. Pressing the creeping/chembomb button is a strategy. I stand by the fact that yes, xyzwood need a look over, and that's my personal opinion. You're not the only one in the boat of, "my chem sucks more than xyzwood"
  • BrawrurBrawrur Member Posts: 25 Inept
    edited July 2020
    Kaizynne said:
    I mean. Pressing the creeping/chembomb button is a strategy. I stand by the fact that yes, xyzwood need a look over, and that's my personal opinion. You're not the only one in the boat of, "my chem sucks more than xyzwood"
    I was just saying, it's a bit cheap to claim your side had some superior strategy when it amounted to actually just pressing enter (or using a reflex) every so often.


    The fact the ONE ability won that for you shows there's a MASSIVE flaw.
  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 218 Adept
    If you really feel it is unfair, you could always report CrimsonMoss be changed to an EmberDance equivalent - something that causes maybe haemophilia and bleeding, instead of ablaze and burn damage.

    In addition to the report fixing the racial/racelock. The confusion is nobody reported it, there were a few rants on discord, and then people expected a change from that? How is that fair to the producers that they didn't make changes to classes before a major event based on discord rants??
  • BrawrurBrawrur Member Posts: 25 Inept
    edited July 2020
    They were part of those discussions and dismissed everything that led to this issue.

    Look at literally every Mboagn comment.


  • MboagnMboagn Member Posts: 147 Master
    I don't know how we'll convince you that we did absolutely the best we could do. Org brews, shoulderguns, wonderitems, karma blessings, rock candies, goop scarves - we used these, and more. We made triggers to try and get our chembombs off together. We did manual count-downs.

    The "get good" argument is just incredibly disheartening when we did everything you suggested, everything we could think of, and you're still making it seem like it's a failing on our part instead of a skill being overtuned. 
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  • MboagnMboagn Member Posts: 147 Master
    Also, regarding envoy reports, when we raised the issue of Creeping the first time, you guys diverted the topic and said that maybe that Noose was the problem. As a bonus, nerfing Noose would also cut off the rad+entangle+damage from adjacent!

    So we reported Noose...and a partial solution was adopted. Creeping remained a problem. I guess we were naive to think that envoy reports were a valid solution.  :/
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  • SilvanusSilvanus The Sparrowhawk Member Posts: 1,674 Transcendent
    Meh

    Even Boulderblast was nerfed, I don't know how a skill like boulderblast could be allowed years later. You would think how many times it was abused by Val would prevent a skill from being introduced like that again.
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  • SilvanusSilvanus The Sparrowhawk Member Posts: 1,674 Transcendent
    This was the most competitive Ascension I have ever been apart. I do not remember a time where it was 3600-3400, that is truly remarkable that we were able to achieve something so balanced.

    This was also the most unbalanced Ascension I have ever been apart of. When in two weeks Chemwoods bombs get nerfed, all of you will know that it was deserved. I do not know how to say correctly what needs to be said, but this was a failure in an inability to address this beforehand. I know it is also weird to take the opinion of someone that has been gone for 4 years, but I know that the integrity of the game has been loss this day, because the skill that won the Ascension will be nerfed within weeks.

    I feel as a Lusternia has been robbed of her integrity, a chance for redemption from the previous turmoil has been ripped from her as the only thing it succeeded in was proving it was the same all along.

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    2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
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  • BrawrurBrawrur Member Posts: 25 Inept
    This sort of stuff, along with the other side insisting that we just needed to try harder is what drives people away from Lusternia.

    And what's going to follow is going to be pretty predictable. Either nothing, or there's going to be some chemwood nerf which doesn't actually address any single issue raised and somehow worsens the leveling between classes even more, and doesn't at all fix how badly chem fits in as a class into things or the fact that it's never been properly finished after however many years it's been out for. 

    It also feels like there's just no reaction to negative feedback other than to shrink away or double down and pretend there's no issue or blame the players. This shit is honestly going to lose you players if it carries on. I'm sure it's already lost you countless.
  • MboagnMboagn Member Posts: 147 Master
    The admin reaction has put me off from hoping the issues will actually be addressed.
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  • BrawrurBrawrur Member Posts: 25 Inept
    I think city warriors should have a bonus +2000 damage and 3s stun to their instakills (Pureblades cast 2 seconds faster) because of reasons I don't really need to specify or explain properly.
  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight Member Posts: 1,307 Transcendent
    What I find so sad on threads like these is... that people are so quick pointing fingers at 'this is OP' and 'that is OP' and 'you had no skill, no luck, you simply  had that one overpowered skill, thats why we lost.'. Yes, I get it, I've been there myself, many times. It is easy to point the finger at one ability and say 'this is why we lost', it is a lot harder to acknowledge that both sides did an amazing job and gave each other real pressure and kept this whole thing engaging. It was a huge showing by both sides, probably more people we've seen active at the same time since a long time.

    Do specific skills maybe need a look at ? possibly, thats what our report system is for! Though, interestingly, most of the times skills are only the issue if you lost, not when you win.  We would all be better off if everyone were honest to themselves if one of their own skills was a little too good.

    Did wyrdenwood win this ascension? I highly doubt it. I don't think anyone can say to be able to stand in 100 power worth of bombs and rightfully claim they would survive, unless they pulled a prismatic out in the right moment.

    Did the lag make everything a lot worse then it should've been? Yes it was. I had a section where I watched someone else needing 3 minutes till they reached back to the present. One section where I stood  alone in a room and couldn't move into any direction and another where path track from minutes ago circled me around the room my group was currently without ever landing me in the right spot. Trying to gust allies that were on a different sphere by  the time the game caught up to me. We all basically played in RL aeon the whole event.

    Truth is, you did all very well, we had a very tight acension event that could've gone either way because both groups that showed did an amazing job at fighting and competing!
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  • BrawrurBrawrur Member Posts: 25 Inept
    edited July 2020
    I disagree with pretty much everything you're saying and think you would have a very different opinion if you on the receiving end.

    Everyone agrees that is it OP, we have some people who are lying and pretending that it isn't, but consider that it was wiping out 7+ people at once from 3 rooms away with absolutely no hindering on those people. It was the sole reason for how things turned out.

    After about halfway in, Creeping made up probably about 96% of all kills.

    It is just beyond ignorant, flat out rude and insulting, to suggest that it wasn't an absurdly unfair impact.

    I'm legitimately disappointed but not completely surprised.


    And yes, part of it was due to the lag, but Creeping wouldn't have secured those kills without the +2 buff that woods get or the free bleed on Creeping. Or the free 3s stun which prevented healing after being hit by one.



    "Though, interestingly, most of the times skills are only the issue if you lost, not when you win.  We would all be better off if everyone were honest to themselves if one of their own skills was a little too good."

    Agree with this completely and think Shadowlight could become twice as tolerable if they followed it.
  • MboagnMboagn Member Posts: 147 Master
    Aeldra said:
    What I find so sad on threads like these is... that people are so quick pointing fingers at 'this is OP' and 'that is OP' and 'you had no skill, no luck, you simply  had that one overpowered skill, thats why we lost.'. Yes, I get it, I've been there myself, many times. It is easy to point the finger at one ability and say 'this is why we lost', it is a lot harder to acknowledge that both sides did an amazing job and gave each other real pressure and kept this whole thing engaging. It was a huge showing by both sides, probably more people we've seen active at the same time since a long time.

    Do specific skills maybe need a look at ? possibly, thats what our report system is for! Though, interestingly, most of the times skills are only the issue if you lost, not when you win.  We would all be better off if everyone were honest to themselves if one of their own skills was a little too good.

    Did wyrdenwood win this ascension? I highly doubt it. I don't think anyone can say to be able to stand in 100 power worth of bombs and rightfully claim they would survive, unless they pulled a prismatic out in the right moment.

    Did the lag make everything a lot worse then it should've been? Yes it was. I had a section where I watched someone else needing 3 minutes till they reached back to the present. One section where I stood  alone in a room and couldn't move into any direction and another where path track from minutes ago circled me around the room my group was currently without ever landing me in the right spot. Trying to gust allies that were on a different sphere by  the time the game caught up to me. We all basically played in RL aeon the whole event.

    Truth is, you did all very well, we had a very tight acension event that could've gone either way because both groups that showed did an amazing job at fighting and competing!
    I disagree with many things with this post, but particularly the bolded bit:

    Wyrdenwood Creeping had been raised as problematic before. You even have players here who play on the side of Glomdoring who at least acknowledge that something needs to change with how the skill operates. Creeping was not just "suddenly problematic during Ascension"; we saw it coming from a mile away and the powers that be chose not to do anything about it.

    Incidents like this, where we know something's a problem and elect to defend its existence is a sure way to ensure that this "huge showing" doesn't happen again because players will be leaving.
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  • AeldraAeldra , using cake powered flight Member Posts: 1,307 Transcendent
    I am sorry if I came across as saying things are fine, I never meant to get this across. I don't have the knowledge to gauge whether doom has the kind of impact on this ascension that you claim it did, I can literally say next to nothing about it, aside of it being a wyrdenwood bomb. I can only say from what I've seen of this ascension,  I doubt it is the case. That doesn't mean its fine, again, I don't have the expertise to make that kind of call. If you think that was the point of my post, then either my english is seriously failing me or it is what you want to read into it.
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  • BrawrurBrawrur Member Posts: 25 Inept
    If you got hit by any of my bombs in this event, just imagine that dealing 2000+2000 more damage, stunning you for 3 seconds and making you bleed 1000.  

    And then four more bombs will follow, and you'll see your entire room of allies get wiped out with no ability to shield multiple times. You've never experienced this, because we can't do it to you. I understand if you can't empathise with that at all, it's understandable.

    If Serenwilde was an actual organisation and not somewhere where we have to grab random people to decide on important political decisions regarding them, you might get a slight taste of what this is like to go through.

    I'm sorry if I've come off as particularly combative but it beggars belief that anyone can look at this and think anything other than "Bullshit." 

    I've read a bunch of pvp-combat threads and whenever people speak up around a certain org there tends to be a bunch of really... Victim-blamey (for lack of a better allegory) comments which make the losing side out to be lazy, unprepared etc. along with a bounty of people who'll just make excuses for how things are, or just get the thread shut down by gods which you can see in basically every post about conflict on these forums.

    It's getting a bit old at this point and some people need to wake up and take a look at themselves and wonder whether they actually want anyone else in the game with them. And that's not just pointed at players.
  • MboagnMboagn Member Posts: 147 Master
    Aeldra said:
    I am sorry if I came across as saying things are fine, I never meant to get this across. I don't have the knowledge to gauge whether doom has the kind of impact on this ascension that you claim it did, I can literally say next to nothing about it, aside of it being a wyrdenwood bomb. I can only say from what I've seen of this ascension,  I doubt it is the case. That doesn't mean its fine, again, I don't have the expertise to make that kind of call. If you think that was the point of my post, then either my english is seriously failing me or it is what you want to read into it.

    Your first paragraph disregards the issue of skill balance and instead chalk it up to better strategy; it argues that the Ascension was won solely because of better play by the winners and not because of mechanical issues with abilities and how they translate in actual game combat.

    This position is supported by your second and third paragraphs. You even stated that issues of skill balance only come up when you lose to it, thereby implying that it is irrelevant to how Ascension played out. You cap this off by making the argument that Wyrdenwood did not win Ascension, despite it alone taking way more than fifty kills (according to my records; I didn't see deaths which happened when I was dead/did not have deathsight up). You'd expect combat to have kills from different sources; toading, decapitation, deathsong, perhaps. But in this particular instance, Creeping bombs literally caused the majority of deathsights.

    You cap this off with an anecdote on lag, which is increasingly looking like the scapegoat that's going to be sacrificed instead of taking an actual review of wood bombs and their overall design. While lag was indeed equally horrendous for both sides, the fact that woods can natively stun and access bigger damage with their bombs means that they are less affected by it (the lag). Chems needed to make sure their bombs went off within a split second of each other in order to outpace serverside autocuring (and thus, also get access to bomb stun and big damage); woods don't have this problem in the same order of magnitude.

    In conclusion, it's great to be on the side of Creeping. We know.
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  • MboagnMboagn Member Posts: 147 Master
    edited July 2020
    I know my tone is abrasive and this is intentional; from experience in IRE, in general, only the biggest fires draw admin attention in a timely manner. You saw how quick the admins tried to slap a band-aid on Ascension woes with a truefavour.  With that in mind, I'm going to keep pushing until some real solutions are enacted. I do acknowledge that those who aren't on the receiving end of Creeping probably don't realise how frustrating it is to deal with. All I'm asking is that you acknowledge that our concerns are real, even if you don't feel them yourselves.


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  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 218 Adept
    Mboagn said:

    Wyrdenwood Creeping had been raised as problematic before. You even have players here who play on the side of Glomdoring who at least acknowledge that something needs to change with how the skill operates. Creeping was not just "suddenly problematic during Ascension"; we saw it coming from a mile away and the powers that be chose not to do anything about it.
    No, it has not. You keep saying this and it is still a lie. There has been no report put in for wyrdenwood bombs. You did rant about it on discord, but there is way, way more consistent ranting about monks on discord too. There was huge ranting about Aeonics, at one point. Etc. It is unreasonable to expect IO to change things because a handful of people are ranting about an ability.

    Put in a report. If that report is supported by players, and then still rejected by the admins, then you can start saying what you've been saying and it will actually mean something.
  • KethaeraKethaera Member Posts: 981 Transcendent
    Ascension this year: See warning about creeping. Enter command for shield. Wait 10 minutes. Wait 10 more minutes to phoenix/return to Astral cause I'm already dead.

    Bombs generally are a ridiculous "strategy" in events like this, and chemwoods are worse than others. Added with the lag, and this was unplayable. There was no strategy to overcome it, and we did try everything available to us. All this posturing about "well maybe you could have done..." No, stop. Anything after that statement - I tried that. Repeatedly. I tried everything suggested, either from people here or from people on our side during the event to adjust for the bombs and the lag and the difficulty of moving people out of the room, and there was nothing else. 

    We worked with what we had, and we did damn well at doing so, and nearly won. All the suggestions of how to "git gud" is just as absurd in this case as it ever was in the past. You want to pretend like you'd have done better in our place - BS. You'd have lost, and whined about it. 
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  • BrawrurBrawrur Member Posts: 25 Inept
    We've literally had multiple discussions with Oraeal over the course of like months telling him how bullshit this thing is. 

    It's not that it hasn't "gotten to the people who make the decisions" or somehow slipped by. We've literally had him tell us that it's very fair and balanced and right.

    "Do reports" is a shit response. We may as well tell IHC to just not do any combat for the next year until those open again. 

    I remember being deterred away from touching the whole race thing as an envoy report and had my hands too full of reports to actually make some of Gaudi's classes not as much of a joke.

    I don't know why you're calling anyone liars, there are logs of this.


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