Reality/Envoys

This is a five power ability, it effects everyone, not only enemies so it isn't stopped by lust. It on active has a chanced to move everyone either to a random room in the area or a random room on astral. In domoths, this means those people cannot feasibly rejoin the group without being picked up, so you immediately remove people from combat anytime that hits.

Furthermore, once it is used, it puts an effect in the room which makes it so that any target regrouping has a chance to be thrown again.

This can be combined with starleaper to relatively safely walk into a group of 10 people, reality, and get out safely while completely disrupting the larger group. Then all you need to do to avoid any of the negative effects of reality is pick off the people who were thrown using reality, or beckon/rad/ anything else to move the group further.

Even if it was only an active ability, it'd be overpowered due to the astral affect effectively killing people when it throws them in Astral since they are out of the fight until the next wave.

However, the passive ability further removes the ability of a group to recover from this five power ability. 

Further, Envoys have been instructed that reports that attempt to address imbalances in other classes will be automatically rejected unless submitted with the agreement of the envoy of that class.

I understand that envoys are meant to be advocates for the game and combat, but that isn't how things play out. People accuse each other of trying to personally buff themselves, the agrees/disagrees almost always fall down party lines.

With this in consideration, There is a current draft to this skill that actually increases its power by limiting the downside. There are two solutions that propose allowing a reality user to remove a current instance of reality in a room, this would allow a reality user to jump into a room, active reality, remove reality, have group engage severely diminished group.

Ontop of this, There are some orgs (namely Hallifax) that has no unique ability to engage in these group fights because without beckon, wisp, throatcall, there isn't an ability that isn't stopped by monolith and that doesn't either require 10 seconds of not moving, or previously being in the room.

This was an issue that I presented should be worked in the special report, the lack of movement by Hallifax, and lack of group synergy in instant kills for Gaudiguch and Hallifax. None of these issues got addressed and they are far ranging problems that cannot feasibly be changed by envoys because we all know a report to give illuminati or researcher a mana kill, or something similar, like an ability that causes mana loss to give temp insanity/timewarp where roughly 50% of mana lost would cause massively is going to be autorejected because of certain things that make them powerful 1v1, but weak in groups.

tl;dr: Envoys is a broken system that encourages division among the envoys and a fierce dedication to your own class instead of the integrity of the game.
Reality is severely overpowered
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Comments

  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    edited March 2013
    Who uses such an overpowered ability.

    Edit:

    Okay fine, I will be slightly more constructive: I would be more inclined to take this seriously if, instead of posting to the forums trying to rally the masses to take up their pitchforks to Reality, you actually tried to have a discussion over envoys or even myself first.

    Instead, you make an entire thread that says 'Reality OP', not include any potential solutions we can investigate, make a rant about how the envoys system is not working, -and- lament about poor, poor Hallifax.

    Well, that just won't do.
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  • Not to detract from the thread, but I agree that I personally dislike Lusternia's envoy system. I believe the envoy system is tasked with an important and significant enough aspect of the game that they should require and receive the same requirements and rewards as a quasi-volunteer, something like mortal builders. Give them credit payment or other incentives as well as access to extensive testing capabilities to try out and find problems with theories or actual skillsets. In return, require entrance tests, and a clear line of command to an admin they are held answerable to. Those who don't do their job should get fired.

    It's not going to happen, though. Sadly. I can only dream. Anyway, sorry for the slight derail. Back to the topic.

  • Hallifax has passive room aeon.

    What now?
  • What Lerad said!


    And yes, reality is overpowered.
  • I have brought up reality countless times on envoys. However, I have no power to do anything about it.

    Solutions: Reality can only throw a person within 3 rooms, it's still significantly better than other movement effects that have the same power
    Reality only works when the user is in the room, disappears when they die, and costs 10 power and 5 seconds of balance.
    Reality no longer has an active effect, only passive, stays at 5 power, only hits enemies and disappears with reality check, can only have one reality up at a time





  • edited March 2013
    Besides people being flung to astral, what's stopping people from just moving and regrouping?

    Edit; I agree that it should block off rooms/areas you can't get out of, that's a bit much. But other than that, you can all move and regroup? i
  • You can get moved into enemy melds or into parts of the area that require you to move through enemies to get back, just from the top of my head.
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    I also would like to know how you guys can't just regroup especially in the era of nerfed gravity.

    You can even fly to bypass traps if needed (not that GG has any trappers).

    Furthermore, you guys keep downplaying the fact that reality does hit allies as well. In fact, a most recent occurence was when Sidd kept repeatedly getting booted into a Fog of Creation room and couldn't even rejoin the group properly. The ability hurting friends happens more often than you'd think.

    On top of this, Reality + Starleaper isn't an invincible combo. Anything that stops me leaving (most notably, pfifth/pits) still stops it from firing. If for whatever reason you don't have access to either, just chase me down and kill me anyway.

    P.S. Reality doesn't fire if I'm not in the area or dead.
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  • It dramatically increases the ability of a defensive group to maintain their forward momentum, the same complaint that was prevelant with gravity. Typically when invading a group there are only certain areas you can feasibly group without demesne effects wrecking you. To lose one of those rooms by default to a 5 power skill is very strong
  • Chasing you down means moving and risking getting split up, though.
  • Veyrzhul said:
    You can get moved into enemy melds or into parts of the area that require you to move through enemies to get back, just from the top of my head.
    It's the same problem that every other moving skill presents - tackle, catapults, whirlwind and so on.
  • Except it is exacerbated by the fact that it presents multiple rooms, which could have their own reality, meld, illusions, shrine effects. The very fact that I am proposed that it be limited to three rooms (still three times the distances presented by those skills) should speak to the fact that it is not the same experience.
  • edited March 2013
    Catapults are multiple rooms as well...
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    edited March 2013
    Yeah, not buying the 'maintaining forward momentum' angle I'm afraid. 

    If anything, the fact that everyone instantly respawns is what makes maintaining forward momentum easier. As an example, if my report were to be accepted - if I died, you wouldn't have had to suffer through reality for a minute+, more than enough time to shift the momentum around. Support 1018!

    If for some reason you don't agree there, I would argue that bubblixes are an equally culpable agent when it comes to the momentum argument. People coming back easily makes it hard to maintain.

    On another note, there are far more popular skills that do the same for less cost that do the same, such as embedded rad, fearaura, whirlwind, scissorflip, etc. If reality is overpowered because it breaks people up, why are those fine? Because it "only" moves you 1 room? Those are far cheaper, usually tick more often, -and- only hit enemies.


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  • Is reality the most effective group breaking skill in the game currently?

    If not, what is more powerful?
    Take great care of yourselves and each other.
  • edited March 2013
    To echo Vadi, None of this is really a unique problem to reality, the only difference is the distance. We've run into issues with reality backfiring quite often.

     There was a domoth fight on facility, where Shuyin jumped in, realitied, then I followed with a group and half my group disappeared to all corners.

    Edit: Melds also only fire if you land with or next to the melder, shrine effects aren't really a big deal if you play it smart and don't lead a group of invasion mobs around. 

    Double Edit: No Ciaran, I don't think it's the most effective group breaking skill, I'd totally rank fearaura higher
  • Knowing that this would never happen.

    Would there be objections to aeonfield being replaced by a reality clone by those who are supporting it, if not, why.
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    Fearaura is easily way more reliable than reality IMO. So is rad, once it gets going.

    As the only person who uses the skill, the one area where Reality shines is during the inital rush where I go be a hero and walk into their angry group. That's about it. Other skills like rad, etc trump reality after that.
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  • Sure, I'd rather deal with reality than aeonfield, but you're right in that it won't happen.

     Aeonfield is pretty powerful, not sure why'd you give that up when you have runes/acrobatics/tarot to help seperate people
  • Admin already said they don't support skills that go 'x-org has it, so why not us' for the reasoning, so that would be moot.

    Also, trying to say Hallifax doesn't have access to group separators is silly.
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  • edited March 2013
    As I've seen so far, it has been used liberally by a single person (usually without allies in tow) to disorient a group, pick off separated targets while they attempt to regroup in an enemy meld and force people to have to leave the fight to pick up stranded allies. The only solution that has worked thus far is to try your best to keep the reality-whore dead. Need better solutions!

    @Sidd: Are you kidding? Why would you rate fearaura over reality? Fearaura moves you a single room away and does not move you when off balance, the complete opposite of how reality works. Also, the ally argument is moot when Shuyin runs into the room alone, with starleaper, to use reality. I realize I haven't played in awhile but it's interesting to see that people who benefit from it/use are in full support of it. I'm sure this thread won't change a thing.


  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    Yeah, I don't really get how Hallifax doesn't have any access to group breaking skills when they have scissorflip, pits, fearaura, and rad. 

    If you mean a unique one, sure. But do you -need- a unique groupbreak skill? Probably not.

    Also, the admin have repeatedly said 'no clone skills'. If we're going to indulge this thought experiment, I'd be in favour of dropping your "crappy" passive aeon for a reality clone.
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  • That wasn't the reasoning, and like I said, it would never happen because of this.

    However, is there any reasonable argument other than "the gods don't support this type of thinking" for why researchers shouldn't have reality from a game balance perspective?

  • Morbo said:
    That wasn't the reasoning, and like I said, it would never happen because of this.

    However, is there any reasonable argument other than "the gods don't support this type of thinking" for why researchers shouldn't have reality from a game balance perspective?
    I don't think Hallifax's skills have anything to do with the reality argument. Should stick to one thing or they'll just try and mute the actual issue.
  • edited March 2013
    @Malicia I'd totally rate fearaura over reality, looking over this log, fearaura from Viynain*, Shuyin, myself, you and Kelly all worked really effectively against enemies, I know Kelly's fearaura got me a few times. 

    Fearaura is super nice, there's a reason I instantly picked it up when destruction went inherent.

    edit: Viynain had it up as well
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    Yeah, we're the ones totally muting the issue when the thread opened up with 'envoys suck' and 'poor hallifax'. 

    If anything, we're keeping on topic. :P
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  • I'm basically stating that the waaa Hallifax argument can divert from the actual issue.
  • Well lets focus on Reality here. I agree.

    Here is why I'm afraid more of reality than fearaura.

    Reality can throw me anywhere, I can't stop it as far as I know. I can be sitting with my whole team and suddenly I'm in the middle of your guys' meld.

    Fearaura may fear me into your group, but I'm 1 tumble away from mine, and normally I'm offbal and can cure fear before it ticks.

    How am I wrong?
    Take great care of yourselves and each other.
  • edited March 2013
    Sidd said:
    @Malicia I'd totally rate fearaura over reality, looking over this log, fearaura from Viynain*, Shuyin, myself, you and Kelly all worked really effectively against enemies, I know Kelly's fearaura got me a few times. 

    Fearaura is super nice, there's a reason I instantly picked it up when destruction went inherent.

    edit: Viynain had it up as well
    @-)

    Oh dear.  Fearaura is a passive ability on a timer that can be disrupted by love potion, can be resisted, that only moves a target one room away if they're on balance and ONLY if the exits aren't blocked. Fearaura can and has been countered. Reality is an active ability that ignores most of the aforementioned circumstances and needs to be toned down.
  • From pre-Morbo envoy talks on the situation we were informed that cherry picking which rooms it could fling people to would be prohibitively complicated.

    Giving it a room radius is an interesting idea until people use it right next to a blocked off quest area.

    Also, if you think you have no power to move the discussion to areas that you feel suffer a serious imbalance then you are a terribad envoy. I'm not even kidding.

    If Shuyin opens the can of worms that is reality by seeking a buff for it then you will have an invitation written in stone to give your opinion on the subject. So you should have a mad scientist laugh over it, not outrage.

    Also, there is an envoy board that you can immortalize your comments on. Just be really nice and constructive about it.

    Envoying a skill you don't have means it will have increased scrutiny from the admin. They could set the bar impossibly high for any number of reasons, including forum rage posts, so it is best not to do it. It is not automatically a dead end though.

    I'm inclined to agree with you but after this post i'm disinclined to work with you. This was not the right approach for this situation.

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