Wildewood

SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,443 Transcendent
edited July 2013 in Ideas

So, this has been a long time coming but I’m really not happy with Wildewood on a thematic level and I have time now to actually write this all out. I don't feel that these are really all issues that an envoy can deal with and while I could send an email to support, I'd prefer to have open discussion.

 

Flowers Everywhere

We're told that the Wildewood are meant to be one with the forest, in turn becoming a reflection of the forest itself and yet, I find that we don't really fit that description

.

The most blatant aspect of this in the overuse of flowers, perhaps it is just me but this has never really felt like a overly visible aspect of Serenwilde. For some reason, the concept of flower users actually strikes me as more relevant to Ackleberry. Perhaps from that map Estarra showed us, the connection to bees, or perhaps because I expect a "cutesy but going to destroy you" vibe from there.


We actually have eight flowers mentioned as part of being a Wildewood, the four that we have in our abilities and another four specifically mentioned as being part of our garlands. Three of these are brand new ones that appear to have been created for the skill, four are ordinary flowers, and the last is well... Bluebells, a flower that requires a quest in the gardens of Maeve to earn and in turn has a special connection to the Moondancers.


Certainly we do have Maylea in the pantheon, however, I don't feel that we are meant to reflect the gods of the time, being honest one of the concerns I have is that I can look at the Wildewood and consider them the offspring of Hoaracle and Maylea.

 

Physical as opposed to Mystical

For me Serenwilde is very much a place that is outside of the normal world of Lusternia. The laws of nature are observed, however they are also protected by the countless beings that call the forest home. Serenwilde is the plants, it is the animals, it is all of the varied spirits, it is all of the adventurers and denizens.


Serenwilde is a place that you look after forever regardless of how long your body actually lasts.

It is very odd, but at times the messages for Wildewood are often at odds with their effects. I think the messages for Horned Lily are still "Meae's horned lily flowers sway in her eaves, releasing a trickle of orange pollen down upon you. You groan, your strength leaving your body." while the effect is your limbs breaking. It seems magical in the line, but the effect is ultimately... very physical. Ultimately feeling a bit disconnected or disjointed.


This isn't all too terrible, I would point to at Garland spray and the spores, except for flower power, as examples of where this skill captures the mystical nature of the forest and I wish that more of the skill worked with this sort of a feeling.

 

Sometimes, it feels like a joke

I'm just going to say flowerpower and treehug here.


Treehug itself feeds back into the issue of physical over mystical and kind of violates the standard that the skill has where the Wildewood very rarely, if ever, move. The image I have of the Wildewood is that, as much as possible, they just kinda stand there and things happen around them. So that rather impressive sight in my imagination, is kinda less cool when I realise... "hey, one of the better things I could spam is treehug" so I end up with the mental image of trees running around trying desperately to hug people to death... It's funny at first, but then the joke wears off.

 

 

So... what would I like to see?

Firstly... please make the "flowers" something else. There are some options, one that could be fitting is to make the sap a summoning reagent. There are a few spiritual elements that could be invoked such as Ancestors, Animals, the Hartstone or perhaps Serenwilde as an entity(though these last two may not make sense in context sadly).


While the tribal theme is present throughout Serenwilde, the Hartstone are one of the places where it tends to be concentrated. Exploring that more, could work quite nicely.

 

I'd like the afflictions and damage to be reconsidered, though these can be envoyed over time, I suppose I have to question why it is that Serenwilde is the forest of bone breaking and blunt damage? Given the damage layouts it it feels that concluding that we might have this primarily because the damage typing puts us in thematic opposition to Glomdoring (blunt vs cutting) isn't entirely out of the question. Their cutting perhaps due to how common bleeding is in their forest, and our bone breaking being a result of it matching up with blunt damage typing.

 

I'm not much with the combat effectiveness so I couldn't suggest what sort of afflictions would work, but I just feel that the current set with their lines don't sync up that much with Serenwilde and the Hartstone.

 

Rethinking flowerpower and treehug, it's really hard to get away from the stereotypes of snugglewilde, it's even harder when such beings that are so deeply representative of the forest have jokes about this stereotype in their abilities.

 

Oh and I suppose a few nice small things such as making Wildewood/Wyrdenwood count for family honour for Serenwilde/glomdoring families as there is no way you can get the racial bonus while having these skills. Also, something to compensate for the low charisma would be nice for village influencing such as a bonus to org specific influencing abilities.

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Comments

  • LlandrosLlandros Member Posts: 457 Gifted
    Well some of these are mechanical and I hate to be a Debbie downer but I don't see a lot of this happening. 

    Reworking the afflictions would take a special report, which won't happen, or up to 8 months of having the skill set messed up while in transition.This is pretty unreasonable just to change the feel of it.

    Treehug is an attack. It's not really a friendly greeting as it does about 1k damage and brakes bones. It also goes well with the afflictions and the rest of the set up. Maybe some kind of back hand or pimp slap to replace it but it would need to be something blunt that could break bones.

    Changing the flowers to be something else is cosmetic enough to not mess up too much. 
    Below are the equivalent themes for the specs.
    aeromancers - fields
    aquamancers - mists
    geomancers - fumes
    pyromancers - effluvim
    wildewood - flowers
    wyrdenwood - leaves

    You might be able to get traction on changing flowers to spirits but there is a high probability that the intent was to keep things organic as that is consistent across both woods. Maybe mushrooms or spores?

    The racial bonus to org influencing is something you could run with but it might be a tough argument. Illithoid get a level 3 buff but they have 7 cha. Viscanti get a lvl 2 with 10 cha. You could try for a lvl 1 with 12 cha but then you get into the argument of 12 cha races being fairly common and if we would we need to give that bonus to half the races in the game. Also, when the races were examined and influencing issues were brought up they were buffed with extra charisma.

    I would suggest you focus on cosmetic changes to the flowers and tree hug if you want to move forward with this. Also, I've found that talking with my patron or other related deities has been helpful in the past with struggling with theme issues.

    image
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods Member Posts: 4,386 Transcendent
    edited July 2013
    The afflictions are the way there are because I picked them to serve a few purposes:

    First, to synergize better with the majority of Serenwilde, as that seemed to be the pidgeonhole these skillsets were stuck in, group assistance. The combination with Shofangi and salve stacking is pretty obvious, but high amounts of proning and limb breaking (not to mention the stupidity-like effect and blind) also really help normal Druids and Warriors do their thing. 

    Second, the ostensible kill method (see my long posts about how viable the entire skillset is, even after all the changes) involves a timer kill. Though the flowers cut out before the skill can take effect (ergh), the afflictions you need for that skill are derived from the flowers. Why not use effects that inherently hinder you from leaving the area of the kill? Two birds with one stone. 

    The afflictions are good as they are, they do a pretty solid burst of hindering that can be captilized on extremely well in a group situation, especially by certain terts (cough cough ecology). In single combat, they're just annoying... but let's face it, the -wood skills aren't relevant in single combat anyways.

    =====================================================

    Treehug breaks 1 limb, explicitly. It's not really a good alternative to using garland, it doesn't do enough to be effective  at much (but a buff could make it crazy). It's one of those things. The same could probably be said about flowerpower, it's the most useless spore attack, so it won't see much use. A rename could go through and no one would probably notice, especially as we have like... 2 full time Wildewoods.

    As far as the influencing thing goes, the most compelling argument I have heard as to why the race (and Wyrdenwood too) should involve some kind of village influencing bonus is that they are the only skillsets in the game that force a racial change on you.  That would be the difference between these races and all the other 12 cha races, they aren't tied (mechanically and thematically) with an org quite as heavily. When the races were examined, the charisma bonus was actually overlooked until I brought it up again 'in person' on envoys, at which point the race got a single point of charisma (iirc) as an afterthought. Not a really impressive buff, or a well thought out one, iirc. A village influencing buff wouldn't be out of line (And wouldn't really unbalance anything), if there is a desire to see more woods hanging around from admins. Also, thank you to Iosai for what we did get on that, meager as it was.

    I agree with LLandros for the most part, aside from any place in the above where I clearly don't. I think that changing to straight up spirits hanging in the branches of the Wildewood isn't likely to get any sort of go-ahead from any administration, but there are plenty of other options that can preserve the theme and more perfectly express what's going on (as far as the afflictions).  

    ((When the affs were first changed, I spitballed that perhaps what happens is that we shower the enemy with pollen, which causes an enraged animal to jump out of our branches and pummel them, targeting via scent. This is too goofy though!))
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,443 Transcendent
    Llandros said:
    Well some of these are mechanical and I hate to be a Debbie downer but I don't see a lot of this happening. 

    Reworking the afflictions would take a special report, which won't happen, or up to 8 months of having the skill set messed up while in transition.This is pretty unreasonable just to change the feel of it.

    Treehug is an attack. It's not really a friendly greeting as it does about 1k damage and brakes bones. It also goes well with the afflictions and the rest of the set up. Maybe some kind of back hand or pimp slap to replace it but it would need to be something blunt that could break bones.

    Changing the flowers to be something else is cosmetic enough to not mess up too much. 
    Below are the equivalent themes for the specs.
    aeromancers - fields
    aquamancers - mists
    geomancers - fumes
    pyromancers - effluvim
    wildewood - flowers
    wyrdenwood - leaves

    You might be able to get traction on changing flowers to spirits but there is a high probability that the intent was to keep things organic as that is consistent across both woods. Maybe mushrooms or spores?

    The racial bonus to org influencing is something you could run with but it might be a tough argument. Illithoid get a level 3 buff but they have 7 cha. Viscanti get a lvl 2 with 10 cha. You could try for a lvl 1 with 12 cha but then you get into the argument of 12 cha races being fairly common and if we would we need to give that bonus to half the races in the game. Also, when the races were examined and influencing issues were brought up they were buffed with extra charisma.

    I would suggest you focus on cosmetic changes to the flowers and tree hug if you want to move forward with this. Also, I've found that talking with my patron or other related deities has been helpful in the past with struggling with theme issues.
     

    I feel that, as one of the two Wildewood that have logged in within the past two weeks, roughly, you could spend two years slowly envoying changes to the skill and no one would really notice.

     

    With the treehug comments, yes... treehug is an attack, this does not stop it from being a joke. Spirit stags could come in and attack you for the same mechanical effect and the ability ceases to be a joke.

     

    I don't think that consistency across the woods is something that is necessarily desirable in all honesty, already they are both trees who use bark and branches, with the first difference being that one uses leaves and the other uses flowers. The Woods are one of the ultimate expressions of the forests and in turn they should be as distinct as the forests themselves are.

    The influencing thing is primarily a nice thing to have because it feels appropriate. As an aside, the low cha and difficulties influencing as a result have been mentioned from memory as a reason for why some will not take Wildewood as a skill.

  • TetraTetra Member Posts: 277 Adept
    edited July 2013
    Something to remember.

    The physical is spiritual.  The Prime material plane is no less spiritual than Astral or Cosmic, it just has a denser vibration of source energy(Yudhe consciousness) and manifests itself as matter to the senses.

    So asking to change an org based on that rationale is from a faulty perception of what the Serenwilde already is.

    Lusternia, as a fantasy world, is very, very magic rich.  The use of magic is omnipresent in even day-to-day tasks..so not sure what you are asking.

                                                                                           "A man's not dead while his name is still spoken."  - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015

  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,443 Transcendent

     

    Enyalida said:
    The afflictions are the way there are because I picked them to serve a few purposes:

    First, to synergize better with the majority of Serenwilde, as that seemed to be the pidgeonhole these skillsets were stuck in, group assistance. The combination with Shofangi and salve stacking is pretty obvious, but high amounts of proning and limb breaking (not to mention the stupidity-like effect and blind) also really help normal Druids and Warriors do their thing. 

    Second, the ostensible kill method (see my long posts about how viable the entire skillset is, even after all the changes) involves a timer kill. Though the flowers cut out before the skill can take effect (ergh), the afflictions you need for that skill are derived from the flowers. Why not use effects that inherently hinder you from leaving the area of the kill? Two birds with one stone. 

    The afflictions are good as they are, they do a pretty solid burst of hindering that can be captilized on extremely well in a group situation, especially by certain terts (cough cough ecology). In single combat, they're just annoying... but let's face it, the -wood skills aren't relevant in single combat anyways.

    =====================================================

    Treehug breaks 1 limb, explicitly. It's not really a good alternative to using garland, it doesn't do enough to be effective  at much (but a buff could make it crazy). It's one of those things. The same could probably be said about flowerpower, it's the most useless spore attack, so it won't see much use. A rename could go through and no one would probably notice, especially as we have like... 2 full time Wildewoods.

    As far as the influencing thing goes, the most compelling argument I have heard as to why the race (and Wyrdenwood too) should involve some kind of village influencing bonus is that they are the only skillsets in the game that force a racial change on you.  That would be the difference between these races and all the other 12 cha races, they aren't tied (mechanically and thematically) with an org quite as heavily. When the races were examined, the charisma bonus was actually overlooked until I brought it up again 'in person' on envoys, at which point the race got a single point of charisma (iirc) as an afterthought. Not a really impressive buff, or a well thought out one, iirc. A village influencing buff wouldn't be out of line (And wouldn't really unbalance anything), if there is a desire to see more woods hanging around from admins. Also, thank you to Iosai for what we did get on that, meager as it was.

    I agree with LLandros for the most part, aside from any place in the above where I clearly don't. I think that changing to straight up spirits hanging in the branches of the Wildewood isn't likely to get any sort of go-ahead from any administration, but there are plenty of other options that can preserve the theme and more perfectly express what's going on (as far as the afflictions).  

    ((When the affs were first changed, I spitballed that perhaps what happens is that we shower the enemy with pollen, which causes an enraged animal to jump out of our branches and pummel them, targeting via scent. This is too goofy though!))

    The arguments may be very sound from a mechanical point of view but it is incredibly sad to me that there is nothing in there about whether or not they're thematically appropriate.

    Wasn't that one of the reasons why Wyrdenwood had their affliction reshuffle result in a discussion of revamping afflictions because the afflictions that made sense for the skill but were underpowered/unappealing.

    I feel though that you have missed that part of the issue is that it just feels strange for the Hartstone to be using flowers. This is resulting in the simple question "Why?" and the only reason I can really think of is Maylea, not in an acusatory way but simply that she's the primary flower association in Serenwilde for me, with some tangential things like the Bluebells/Snoefaasia (for the Moondancers) or the Moonglory (which is just a stage).

    Two of the Hartstone specific abilities in the game involve spiritual powers (original pathtwist more so than the current incarnation), where the other two involve calling on creatures of the forest (even though lightning bugs kinda came out of nowhere, but that's another thing). So yeah, like... they just don't especially say Serenwilde or Hartstone to me and come off as more "generic nature" in this instance.

  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,210 Transcendent
    Because plants vs zombies, that's why.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods Member Posts: 4,386 Transcendent
    edited July 2013
    The afflictions as they originally were had no particular thematic design either, they were just a grab bag of random afflictions based around the idea: "These are things flowers do" (and even then, it was a very tenuous relationship). In other words, even if they had been thematically appropriate, they would have been thematically appropriate things for flowers to do, which was part of what you objected to, right? 

    On that front, I agree: I don't really get why it's flowers either, and the thematics come across as pretty generic and tree-huggery, something we've been trying to move away from for a while. There's a bunch to be said on the front of the 'generic-ness' that I won't even start on, out of fear of "violent" administrative backlash. I 100% agree, and can think of a few different ways to approach that problem without violating the underlying theme of the woodchemantics skillsets. As I said, I doubt (for consistency reasons) that summoning spirits to perform our attacks will be an accepted suggestion, but that doesn't rule out other thematic changes. I repeat: I'm not arguing that the skillset is well-themed. I agree with you, it's not. 

    However, even if the thematics change, let's not change the afflictions. Unless we get the go ahead for some  fundamental changes to the underlying mechanics of the flower, spore, and branch abilities, the affliction set we have now is fairly close to optimal without being broken. That's not ultimately saying more than "We've squeezed some sunquat-aide out of these bitter fruits that don't even have the decency to be lemons", but it's a small victory we should hold on to. The way to have more people play Wildewoods isn't to make them less relevant than they already are, as poor bashers, poorer influencers, and borky combatants. Like it or lump it, relative ability  to level up and participate in conflicts like village influencing, raids and defenses, domoths, and so on is something that informs many (if not most) players as they pick their guild and guildskills.  
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods Member Posts: 4,386 Transcendent
    As a side note, I haven't drafted any serious Wildewood reports since the Special report because the entire experience was very depressing, and involved thought about changing Wildewoods tends to bring that back. However, non-mechanics changes don't have the same "irredeemable-dead-end" feeling.

    As I said on our combat channel when you broached an issue, I think we could have an interesting take on 'spirits' without violating the 'alchemist-y' feel of the woodchemantics skills. The lore would basically be that the forest remembers, even things that haven't happened yet. The sap we collect is... sorta the concentrated essence of the forest's people memory (as it comes from either silvery essence or amber), the connection being that sap/resin hardens into amber - known for trapping and preserving a record of past life. So, in growing something from that sap, you're tapping into the spiritual energy and emotions of Ancestors/Descendents and the resulting wraiths to attack. The distinction there is that it's not a specific cohesive ancestor spirit a la Wildarrane, but more an amalgam of the residual experience/power of countless people who are living, have lived, and will live in the forest. Kinda like a mini-spiritbomb, all the time.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,443 Transcendent
    edited July 2013

    That could work and it would potentially tie in more directly with the stones, though it might still ultimately come to flowers.

     

    Another thought was something like carvings or etchings. Perhaps the squirrels, or potentially other things, that live in the crown of a Wildewood could race along to carve designs into them that are then filled with sap that hardens?

    Decay could be that the carvings heal and the sap falls away, with some form of weird glowing power-overload looking thing (can't brain, at work) for when they are used in an adjuvant.

     

    Edit: Yes, I did just suggest mystical scarification for the Hartstone.

  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods Member Posts: 4,386 Transcendent
    That could also work for any potential armor-equivalent for Wildewoods: Instead of carving magical runes into their bark, they could instead make magical patterns with sap (or channels through the bark, a good use for those pesky weevils. Assuming you have corky bark). Because the sap is charged with magical forest energy, the magical patterns have constant effects. It's basically the same metaphysical explanation the game has for how tattoos work, they shape and align ka energy to elicit effects. 

    You could even base an interesting mechanics rewrite off making these etchings and using them up in combat, if such a thing was on the table.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,443 Transcendent

     

    Tetra said:
    Something to remember.

    The physical is spiritual.  The Prime material plane is no less spiritual than Astral or Cosmic, it just has a denser vibration of source energy(Yudhe consciousness) and manifests itself as matter to the senses.

    So asking to change an org based on that rationale is from a faulty perception of what the Serenwilde already is.

    Lusternia, as a fantasy world, is very, very magic rich.  The use of magic is omnipresent in even day-to-day tasks..so not sure what you are asking.


    Yes and no. The spiritual is entwined with the physical, but they are also distinct as well.

    This is mechanically reflected in afflictions. There are afflictions that affect your characters mental state, there are others that affect their physical body, and there are others that have an effect on them on a spiritual level.

     

    In terms of the physical forest, the plants tend to just sit there and not do much.

    However, their spiritual component, the fae, are able to cause them to physically harm you.

    At the same time, that spiritual entity might go another route such as a curse which might have limited or even no physical effects on you but causes a wide variety of other effects, I would class original pathtwist along the lines of mystical/spiritual rather than a physical effect.

    Entities such as the ancestors or Chuchip, who don't have physical forms any more, might similarly cause effects on your character.

     

    This distinction extends to the way that issues are resolved by the org and/or guild in question. Celest seems likely to construct something in a certain style and perhaps call on the power of the light, Hallifax would probably create an art installation and then charge it up with magical super-science, and Serenwilde might make something but is more likely to contact the spirits and ask them to help(like when we got bridges over the road, we grew them with assistance from ancestral spirits).

     

    I feel that your post analyses how Lusternia is but doesn't put enough weight onto how each of the orgs in turn interact with the world.

  • StefanStefan Member Posts: 38 Apprentice
    This is getting...extremely weird.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods Member Posts: 4,386 Transcendent
    And is of questionable import, I think people are already starting to talk past each each other (@Tetra/@Saran), which is creating a string of posts that make no sense in series.

    If I had to chime in on the subject (which of course means I'm about to), there is a pretty damn good case that the 'physical' nature of Lusternia is 100% spiritual/mental, if you go far enough back, to Yudhe, as @Tetra mentioned. It's just... entirely irrelevant. 



  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,443 Transcendent
    Enyalida said:
    And is of questionable import, I think people are already starting to talk past each each other (@Tetra/@Saran), which is creating a string of posts that make no sense in series.

    If I had to chime in on the subject (which of course means I'm about to), there is a pretty damn good case that the 'physical' nature of Lusternia is 100% spiritual/mental, if you go far enough back, to Yudhe, as @Tetra mentioned. It's just... entirely irrelevant. 



    Yes, it's also not how our characters really interact with the world which is the most important factor here.

    And yes it is also irrelevant, I use physical to describe the fact that many of the afflictions and effects of Wildewood are physical in nature (such as the physical breaking of bone), spiritual to describe more ethereal effects. If we can't make this differentiation then any discussion regarding thematic elements can't take place.

     

    It's also the second time that this argument has been brought up in relation to Serenwilde, so it is entirely frustrating to have it brought up again.

  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods Member Posts: 4,386 Transcendent
    I don't know if I understand what your point is. Are you saying that Wildewoods should be more spiritual and therefore should do fewer physical afflictions as part of a thematic shift? 
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,443 Transcendent
    Two distinct things.

    Presentation: 
    Treehug is a very physically presented skill. Garland walks the line, it looks like a physical skill but hints at something more in the 2nd person message and also references how the forest works together. Nature curse and barktouch are more specifically magically/mystically aligned, while barktouch physically affects the skin of the target it's beyond the "mundane" of lusternia. (I.e Treehug hurts you and breaks bones because... a tree is hugging you which comes off as a mundane ability)

    Presentation is the primary issue, you could give almost any set of afflictions to the aerochemancers and they would still appear engineery as long as the presentation still matches up.

    Effect: 
    The mechanical effect is a secondary consideration, with good presentation you can make the limb breaking seem more mystical in nature. You've previously mentioned that their afflictions have been adjusted to offer a nice amount of synergy with the Shofangi and then some other assistance to Druids and Warriors. 

    I do feel that if there was another choice that wasn't "Rawr, I come in and break you" it'd be nice though, but I don't know what that might be or if it exists. So presentation first.
  • TetraTetra Member Posts: 277 Adept
    edited July 2013

    Saran said:

    I feel that your post analyses how Lusternia is but doesn't put enough weight onto how each of the orgs in turn interact with the world.


    It's a gripe over the difference between water and ice.  I understand, aesthetically, where you are coming from - but I would be careful about suggesting major mechanical changes like afflictions.  Guild skills are(generally speaking) designed the way they are for reason other than taste.  Not only for balance, but to achieve certain win conditions/locks.  Changing the lines and updating the theme is one thing, reworking the afflictions is another story.

    Just keep in mind that theme is very subjective, and it will always be different for each individual.

    @Enyalida : It is relevant, only because you cannot justify changing combat for a class based on such an unsubstantiated whim.

    By all means discuss the different ways to improve on the skillset, but don't base it off of such a shallow reasoning.

                                                                                           "A man's not dead while his name is still spoken."  - Terry Pratchett 1948-2015

  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,443 Transcendent
    Tetra said:

    Saran said:

    I feel that your post analyses how Lusternia is but doesn't put enough weight onto how each of the orgs in turn interact with the world.


    It's a gripe over the difference between water and ice.  I understand, aesthetically, where you are coming from - but I would be careful about suggesting major mechanical changes like afflictions.  Guild skills are(generally speaking) designed the way they are for reason other than taste.  Not only for balance, but to achieve certain win conditions/locks.  Changing the lines and updating the theme is one thing, reworking the afflictions is another story.

    Just keep in mind that theme is very subjective, and it will always be different for each individual.

    @Enyalida : It is relevant, only because you cannot justify changing combat for a class based on such an unsubstantiated whim.

    By all means discuss the different ways to improve on the skillset, but don't base it off of such a shallow reasoning.

    It really isn't, and I would like to see you actually make an argument to counter the one that these skills feel thematically inappropriate to the people actually using them. I am quite serious when I say that it sometimes feels like we are the children of Hoaracle and Maylea(this is a purely discussion purely about rp btw). 

    While they are both gods of the Serenwilde and are tied to the forest, they are not the entirety of the forest. Like all gods, they have come from the ancient past, from a time before the Serenwilde became what it is today and have decided to ally with it, just at they could very easily decide to leave it one day to go else (such as with Elostian and Isune).

    The floral aspect is almost entirely absent from the Hartstone other than in this skill, there are two shared abilities that directly use them in druidry for example. And when combined with the other jokes in the skill this does not really work with the theme of the Hartstone and Serenwilde, and potentially works against the efforts to suppress the "snugglewilder" stereotype.

    I don't really know how much direct experience or knowledge you have with Serenwilde and Hartstone lore, but in my experience this isn't really fitting and this is why I would like to see it changed so that it can be an enhancement of that. 

    I'm sorry, but you may as well be saying that if Aquachemancy had a gritty steampunk theme then the aquamancers should just be happy with it and incorporate that into their rp.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,210 Transcendent
    image
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • AnnickAnnick Member Posts: 245 Adept
    Just so I understand. You want to make changes to a skill set from an alternate timeline in which they had to find a new means to manifest the powers of the forest because it doesn't fit with your idea of what the a Hartstone should be in the descriptions of the skills.
  • StefanStefan Member Posts: 38 Apprentice
    edited July 2013
    This reads more and more like a self-entitlement rant every time I glance over the posts. If you feel it is thematically bad, and the suggestion of incorporating the skills into your roleplay is so completely abhorrent to you, maybe you should stick with Druidry and cut your losses.

    In either case, you can still roleplay being a badass tree in a tribal forest, regardless of how your skills read off. There is more to your character than a few skill messages that don't fit into your perfect image. If they are really enough to make you throw up your hands and demand that such (realistically speaking) trivial things be changed to suit your needs, maybe the problem is not the skill.

    /bitch
  • HoaracleHoaracle Member, Gods Posts: 207 Divine
    edited July 2013
    Hi!

    I have a feeling that this is going to get uglier by the minute. I understand legitimate concerns regarding the aesthetic and mechanical aspects of Wildewood; however, such a discussion would be best played out via an envoy report.

    I would like to remind everyone that the lore of the skillset is as Annick pointed out - contained to a now non-existent future where the forest needed to act in ways quite differently than now.

    I am not going to close this thread, but if things start turning sour, I will act accordingly.

    Also, I am moving this to the Ideas section - in case more fruitful conversation does play out!
  • KioKio Member Posts: 992 Mythical
    edited July 2013
    Welcome to the forums, Treemangodthing!

    (This is a sincere statement, not a sarcastic one.)
  • StefanStefan Member Posts: 38 Apprentice
    My last comment was slightly more hostile than I'd intended, so I will apologize for that. But I stand by the essence of the words, at least.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,443 Transcendent
    edited July 2013
    Stefan said:
    My last comment was slightly more hostile than I'd intended, so I will apologize for that. But I stand by the essence of the words, at least.
    My main response to that is that if I do then there is one maybe one active Wildewood, though they might not be sticking around much longer and if they do leave then there pretty much aren't any.

    So, however much time has been spent on the skill ultimately becomes a waste because no one wants to play with it.

    @Hoaracle: I do understand this, I just feel that... at least as an outsider of the other guilds, or former member in the case of the aeromancers, their skills seem to fit well with them at least from the perspective I have which might be different to what members of that guild have.

    @Shaddus: As an aside, I've put forward applications over the last few years for almost every ephemeral call out. I would be more than happy to step up and offer my time to code for the game (about a quarter of my degree I suppose is in someway related to game design), I just haven't been chosen so I suppose your joke is irrelevant.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,210 Transcendent
    You don't feel that your guildmates turning themselves into trees in order to better link themselves to the Nature they might lose in an alternate future is something that fits them?
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,443 Transcendent
    Shaddus said:
    You don't feel that your guildmates turning themselves into trees in order to better link themselves to the Nature they might lose in an alternate future is something that fits them?
    Yes, but that is the base of the skill. We have perhaps the deepest bond with the forest and are effectively walking representations of it. I quite love that aspect of it and have enjoyed playing with that, if I didn't I would have dropped the skill immediately and we probably would already be at the point where the only Wildewood are the people who try it for a few days and then don't return. (I tend to keep an eye on the ledger so I can see their names with slowly increasing last logins until they disappear)

    The issues that I have are with the layers that are on top of that. As I've said, Glinshari is amazing and while there is a bit of a joke in the text the garland spray ability ties in nicely with themes of unity and harmony that are in the Hartstone and the forest, along with a feeling of not merely being physical. The lines for the skills are great, but they just don't feel like they fit.
  • CalyptusCalyptus Member Posts: 5 Inept
    I've been thinking about Wildewood for a while now, and overall, I am unhappy with the overall aesthetic it provides. At a base level, I represent the Hoaracaean belief that I am one with the Forest, taken to such a level so as to physically and spiritually hold the Serenwilde within myself. I grow the moonhart, pine, ironbark and plenty of other trees. I grow the branches of willows, wrap myself in moss and grow hoary, gnarled knobs. Therefore, I feel that lots of different flowers are also a reasonable part of that collection of inner botany, given that 'I am the Serenwilde, and the Serenwilde is me'. 

    I feel that, bluebell aside, the flowers were constructed to make them unique to the Seren, as opposed to more mundane flowers that could be found elsewhere. This provides a platform for RP refinement; I would like to take up the new flowers and spread them around Seren culture. -Make- bluebells into a memorial flower (as they are for some reason identified in the AB). -Make- hornedlilies and moondrops symbolic of the Spirits. -Make- faeblossom decorate Faethorn, so that it can be taken to represent our bond with the ethereal plane. Given some exploratory RP and aesthetic tweaking, the flowers would seem more... complete.

    As Saran said, the Wildewood are supposedly passive things, not moving until they need to (which I feel is also supported by the mechanic of waking from sleep less easily), so active, physical attacks are unlikely. Having the treehug seems like a perfect opportunity for a dramatic attack that helps to make Wildewood distinct from inert trees, but more active attacks would not suit that passive behaviour. I feel that the descriptions of the attacks need to be reviewed individually, while reconsidering the theme of the skillset as a whole. What exactly are the Wildewood doing to attack? Toxic spore clouds from flowers (such as the humble and nonmagical bluebell) seem unlikely, but dreamy magics, ancestral/spirit evocations and minor fae interaction appear more in-tune with the passive Seren-theme.

    I'd like to make it clear that the clouds of pollen are -amazing- to imagine. It's just that their effects are entirely unrelated to what is happening.

    At the moment, to use Saran's example, the floral attacks are non sequiturs.
    --------
    Saran said:

     "Meae's horned lily flowers sway in her eaves, releasing a trickle of orange pollen down upon you. You groan, your strength leaving your body." 

    --------

    This attack does not in any way link to broken bones, and that kind of nonsensical cause/effect is hardly flattering for any skill. Changing the ability's text to something sensible would be much appreciated. The Wildewood remembrance and evocation of spirits and ancestors through flowers could be another brilliant platform to work from, which ties in perfectly with the spirits the present-day Forest is so fanatic about. 
    ------------
    Enyalida said:
    "I think that changing to straight up spirits hanging in the branches of the Wildewood isn't likely..."
    -------------
    I hardly think Saran was asking to have Spirits loitering around in his branches, Enyalida. My perception thus far has been that he would like sensible reactions to his attacks that fit the passive, Seren-centric theme established by current mechanics.

    On a personal note, I really dislike the garland. AB establishes the garland as sacred to the centaur, but I can make it myself, with flowers that have never been part of the Serenwilde, and with it, I can command squirrels to throw acorns. After reading someone mention unity and community, it's a bit more understandable, but I still feel that it's a bit of a stretch. The attack text for the garland is downright ridiculous: I am staunchly against anyone in the Serenwilde using 'squirrelly wrath' as their most frequently-used attack, particularly given the previous attack, which turned enemies into mulch piece by piece, was so very perfect - forestal in the extreme, survivalist, practical and terrifying while still nourishing the earth. 

    It's a pleasure to work with the Wildewood RP since it provides so many beautiful opportunities and moments and memories, but I'm embarrassed to use the garland, and the flowers simply don't make sense in their current in-carnation.

    -------
    PS. I have no idea how to use the forums. My quotes suck.
    PPS. Carnation was a pun. I felt that I shouldn't miss out on the chance to make a joke.
  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice Member Posts: 2,631 Transcendent
    I don't see stags replacing flowers anytime soon. Remember, the woods all come from a time where Moon and Night, Hart and Crow are dead. Both Serenwilde and Glomdoring are gone then replaced by Serens/Gloms who became the wood. Wyrdenwoods got thorns and leaves and critters who reside in them(wasps, locusts, no crows!). I don't think the flowers make Wildewood a joke. Personally, I see it the alternate timeline Serenwilde's way of adapting, flourishing in a way that preserves the beauty of old Seren. And if Treehug is an issue, maybe you can have it change to falcon punch. Personally, I'd like to see root related skills(roots flinging dirt/rocks at someone's eyes). I don't know what'd make a good erplacement for flowers if not leaves.
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice Member Posts: 2,631 Transcendent
    edited July 2013

    Also, one can assume that wildewood garlands are made as an homage to the alternate timeline centaurs, who probably joined everyone else in turning into wildewoods and thus sharing the knowledge to every other wood. You can make it in the real lusty timeline because of this as well.

    As for Ackleberry, I think they'd get berries(how original) as an equivalent. Or sap++.

     

    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


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