Orclach Whips

13

Comments

  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,825 Transcendent
    Zvoltz said:
    I'm not certain why people got the impression that Excorable-Divinus bashing will never be equal because whip artifacts were released. I never once heard an admin say "Oh well, let's just say screw it and make an artifact instead."

    The fact is that areas take an extremely long time to build, even when you have time to dedicate too it. A "quick" area takes about 3-6 months. Most areas take up to a year or longer to be built. Excorable-weak bashing areas (or any type of bashing area) don't magically appear and just because whips are a thing doesn't mean there will never be excorable-weak areas.
    Cynicism is likely bred from a lot of other games where actual development and improving the overall balance of things is often overlooked for a quick fix that saves development time for some new jesus feature. A lot of games are too focused on instant gratification that they sacrificed real content development some time ago.

    As I said earlier, Lirangsha was an area designed to combat the discrepancy and I'm optimistic as new areas open up in future they'll continue to cater to different types. These whips will become optional to be optimal and feel less and less essential for certain classes.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


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  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 1,718 Mythical
    edited October 2013
    I'm just moderately entertained by this introduction. Mainly because I vaguely remember denizen resistances being added to make bashing more flavourful or interesting and now you can kinda pay to ignore that change...
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  • EstarraEstarra Administrator, Moderator Posts: 868 Creator
    Boy, there's a lot of conspiracy theories out there! Truth be told, I wanted more dingbat items before the promotion ends that weren't tied to manses or curios and that anyone could use. I thought items aimed mainly for bashing would be fun; thus, the orclach whips were born. There really isn't much beyond that. If they aren't working as expected, we can adjust them but really I didn't expect much of a conversation about them (le sigh).

    And, Lusternia is " too focused on instant gratification that they sacrificed real content development some time ago"--really? Excuse me while I slit my throat....
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  • IasmosIasmos Member Posts: 461 Virtuoso
    edited February 2014

    Post edited by Iasmos on

  • SsalissSsaliss Member Posts: 3,575 Transcendent
    I'm not trying to speak in Morkarion's place, but here's what I think he meant:

    People complain about the whip.

    Zvoltz comes in and explains things.

    Morkarion explains to Zvoltz why people complain (the whole "too focused on instant gratification" did say "other games", after all). I don't think he meant that Lusternia has that problem too (especially since the combat overhaul should be ample evidence that's not the case).

    Of course, I'm not Morkarion, and if I misunderstood him, I apologise.
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  • KioKio Member Posts: 992 Mythical
    Estarra said:
    Boy, there's a lot of conspiracy theories out there! Truth be told, I wanted more dingbat items before the promotion ends that weren't tied to manses or curios and that anyone could use. I thought items aimed mainly for bashing would be fun; thus, the orclach whips were born. There really isn't much beyond that. If they aren't working as expected, we can adjust them but really I didn't expect much of a conversation about them (le sigh).

    And, Lusternia is " too focused on instant gratification that they sacrificed real content development some time ago"--really? Excuse me while I slit my throat....

    Oh piffle, beautiful lady.  You stop that nonsense.  There's always someone being bitter about something forever and always.  I recommend smiting them, but that's just me.

    As for the conversation about it, it's not just fun thing, though.  It's an artifact that gives you a bashing attack that is inherently better than most bashing attacks and can rival an ascendant power.  There's a lot of talk about "the rich getting richer" when it comes to things like Great Hunts - this is another example of something that can be used by someone who already has all the credits they could ever want to steal away the opportunity for little folk to win a good chunk.

    At the end of the day, the disparity exists, no matter how large or how small.  Artifacts that create a disparity aren't a bad thing - they are, after all, artifacts.  However, when the disparity created is large enough that the artifact becomes required (or perhaps seemingly required) to compete on an even playing field, it stings some people a little.

    I think the idea is top-notch.  I just think they're a little too powerful for the investment.  If you compare this to another pure-bashing artifact of the same price, we can put it alongside a level one crit rune, which costs 200 credits.  You can either choose to spend 200 credits for a 2/100 crits, or you can spend 200 dingbats on an artifact that will give your bashing attack the same oomph as an ascendant power.
  • EstarraEstarra Administrator, Moderator Posts: 868 Creator
    Sorry if I misunderstood the comment. Sometimes I can be thin skinned... quelle surprise!
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  • SsalissSsaliss Member Posts: 3,575 Transcendent
    edited October 2013
    Personally, I'm a bit split on whips. On the one hand, it's a sizable boost to your damage output (in some cases, at least; personally, I'd probably do 30-35% more damage with a whip than with nightkiss, ignoring resistances/weaknesses) that's only available for dingbats. On the other hand, it's "just" 200 dingbats, so it's nowhere near the 1600 credits I'd have to pay to raise my nightkiss damage by just 20%. If I actually were a basher, a whip (or two) would definitely be on my to-buy list. Although that'd mean I'd have to find 200 dingbats somewhere, and until I did that, it'd mean that people who could pay would get a pretty massive damage buff over me, which... dunno, just feels weird, I guess.
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  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,825 Transcendent
    edited October 2013
    Estarra said:
    Boy, there's a lot of conspiracy theories out there! Truth be told, I wanted more dingbat items before the promotion ends that weren't tied to manses or curios and that anyone could use. I thought items aimed mainly for bashing would be fun; thus, the orclach whips were born. There really isn't much beyond that. If they aren't working as expected, we can adjust them but really I didn't expect much of a conversation about them (le sigh).

    And, Lusternia is " too focused on instant gratification that they sacrificed real content development some time ago"--really? Excuse me while I slit my throat....
    Hell no, entirely the opposite. Please reread what I wrote, it was a criticism of the games industry in general, especially AAA producers. See the endless rehashes of Call of Duty and FIFA to make a quick buck.

    That constant let down gives players a cynical attitude, that such instant gratification has become the status quo in game development. I was trying to explain people's cynicism and why they assume the worst, not state that it's actually the case in Lusternia.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


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  • VivetVivet , of Cows and Crystals Member Posts: 2,223 Transcendent
    The fact that they are superior to standard upgraded caster damage attacks is what irks me most, personally. I don't think a fire whip should be doing more damage than a pyro staff set to 100% fire damage on the same target when all other factors are the same - if the pyro has to buy the whip just to be on equal terms with everyone else who's running around with the whip, that bothers me. You could make comparisons to destruction here, but there at least feels like there is some IC explanation for this, particularly with it being tied to ascendants. Why should any Joe Blow with 200 DB be able to obtain better fire output than the pyromancer? Like Ssaliss said, it just feels weird.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,825 Transcendent
    The thing is while they're stronger in bashing, they're just that, bashing weapons. They were designed to do reduced damage to players, and that's been nerfed again already.

    Also remember two main factors here. The whips are static, they won't scale off intellect, nor do they scale off magical damage runes. It may be possible to push staffcast to do as much or more than a whip, this needs player testing. I still need to find the intellect level that makes destruction equal at base to whip damage, I can't at the moment because War Domoth is artificially boosting me, and I can't be bothered doing a handover when it fluxes this weekend.

    Of course, there's no guarantee that staff cast CAN be pushed to equal or eclipse whip damage, but it might well be worth running the numbers first.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • VivetVivet , of Cows and Crystals Member Posts: 2,223 Transcendent
    Morkarion said:

    Also remember two main factors here. The whips are static, they won't scale off intellect, nor do they scale off magical damage runes. It may be possible to push staffcast to do as much or more than a whip, this needs player testing. I still need to find the intellect level that makes destruction equal at base to whip damage, I can't at the moment because War Domoth is artificially boosting me, and I can't be bothered doing a handover when it fluxes this weekend.

    Well, that's another matter then. I've heard before they weren't supposed to be affected by any boosts, then I heard that DMP boosts affect them (some, but not all), then I heard that all dmp boosts will improve whip damage except for bard songs. It's really not clear to me just yet how "static" they are.
  • SsalissSsaliss Member Posts: 3,575 Transcendent
    They are static in that they aren't affected by int, or strength, or anything like that. Everyone should do the same basline damage with them. They are affected by DMP though (except the bard song, which apparently is being looked at), so that will increase their damage.
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  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens. Member Posts: 3,825 Transcendent
    Vivet said:
    Morkarion said:

    Also remember two main factors here. The whips are static, they won't scale off intellect, nor do they scale off magical damage runes. It may be possible to push staffcast to do as much or more than a whip, this needs player testing. I still need to find the intellect level that makes destruction equal at base to whip damage, I can't at the moment because War Domoth is artificially boosting me, and I can't be bothered doing a handover when it fluxes this weekend.

    Well, that's another matter then. I've heard before they weren't supposed to be affected by any boosts, then I heard that DMP boosts affect them (some, but not all), then I heard that all dmp boosts will improve whip damage except for bard songs. It's really not clear to me just yet how "static" they are.

    Ok the reason for the confusion is it turned out DMP wasn't working in PvE the way it was suppose to, and this was found out after the Bard song issue was reported.

    The static factor is, as Ssaliss said, they (unlike normal bashing attacks) do not scale from intellect or strength. They have a fixed base stat, that is then multiplied by DMP based factors.

    The DMP that boosts whips in PvE is the same as all DMP that affects general PvE damage, not sure if Bard songs were fixed or not, I'm not the person to really explain all this though, but I will say that nothing boosts whips that doesn't also boost any other PvE attack. However staff cast can be boosted by your intellect stat, and the magical damage runes.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • KioKio Member Posts: 992 Mythical
    Intellect does not have nearly as much of an influence as it might be perceived, especially considering the spec races reach higher-end diminishing returns very quickly.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,972 Transcendent
    As a note: I imagine that your caster attack, with high int and a +magic damage rune, will surpass the whip.  Whips are not magic-sourced or physical sourced and thus not modified by intelligence, strength, or anything that boosts Magic or Physical source damage (which includes the +magic rune).

    The DMP thing is a separate matter, and that applies broadly to all attacks (whip or no).  Certain DMP things won't adjust NPC damage (darkmalt, war domoth blessing, havoccry), but most others (including guild skills that provide offensive DMP) will.
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  • VivetVivet , of Cows and Crystals Member Posts: 2,223 Transcendent
    Xenthos said:

    The DMP thing is a separate matter, and that applies broadly to all attacks (whip or no).  Certain DMP things won't adjust NPC damage (... war domoth blessing...), but most others (including guild skills that provide offensive DMP) will.
    ... What? Since when? War domoth blessing has always affected bashing from my experiences, so it still should unless this changed recently. More importantly, why would this be changed, and why would it not be announced (or I don't recall it ever having been)?
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,972 Transcendent
    edited October 2013
    Vivet said:
    Xenthos said:

    The DMP thing is a separate matter, and that applies broadly to all attacks (whip or no).  Certain DMP things won't adjust NPC damage (... war domoth blessing...), but most others (including guild skills that provide offensive DMP) will.
    ... What? Since when? War domoth blessing has always affected bashing from my experiences, so it still should unless this changed recently. More importantly, why would this be changed, and why would it not be announced (or I don't recall it ever having been)?
    It's not a change, it just never has.  The code only had bard songs, ancestralfealty, geo-staff, kirigami, war harmony blessing, and magic rune affecting NPC damage.

    Edit: It's been changed so that tattoos and curios do now affect PvE as well.
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  • VivetVivet , of Cows and Crystals Member Posts: 2,223 Transcendent
    Xenthos said:
    war harmony blessing
    Ooh, nevermind. I made a stupid.
  • EritheylEritheyl ** Trigger Warning ** Member Posts: 1,670 Transcendent
    Beers don't affect PvE? Why am I just now learning this?! Need a damn list in-game, mrmgghrhgmm...
  • ArdmoreArdmore Member Posts: 509 Fabled
    edited October 2013
    I don't think anyone knew, and if they did more than likely it was just envoys. So much happens on that channel that isn't  reiterated to the remainder of the players.
  • LavinyaLavinya Former Queen of Snark AustraliaMember Posts: 3,354 Transcendent
    Xenthos said:
    As a note: I imagine that your caster attack, with high int and a +magic damage rune, will surpass the whip. 
    Unless your attack is 100% excorable and 90% of the basin resists it. :(




  • EritheylEritheyl ** Trigger Warning ** Member Posts: 1,670 Transcendent
    Ardmore said:
    I don't think anyone knew, and if they did more than likely it was just envoys. So much happens on that channel that isn't  reiterated to the remainder of the players.
    Here's to hoping for more specific ABs, at the very least. Please :(
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,972 Transcendent
    Ardmore said:
    I don't think anyone knew, and if they did more than likely it was just envoys. So much happens on that channel that isn't  reiterated to the remainder of the players.
    No, nobody knew at all- not even the coders.  You found out the same time we did!
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  • ArdmoreArdmore Member Posts: 509 Fabled
    Ah, the way the talk on the clan happened, it sounded like people knew that darkbeer never worked for PvE.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,972 Transcendent
    Ardmore said:
    Ah, the way the talk on the clan happened, it sounded like people knew that darkbeer never worked for PvE.
    Nope, people were just saying that they could understand why it wasn't suddenly turned on for PvE once the issue was discovered (because turning on curios, tattoos, and malt all at once could skew bashing quite a bit from where it was before).
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  • SilvanusSilvanus The Sparrowhawk Member Posts: 1,659 Transcendent
    Wait, so Amber (or dark forget which) malts provide no bonus to damage while bashing?

    Does the other beer mitigate NPC damage? Or was that never part of it either?
    2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,972 Transcendent
    The other definitely mitigates NPC damage, that was tested thoroughly by Chade.
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  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 7,761 Transcendent
    Estarra said:
    Boy, there's a lot of conspiracy theories out there! Truth be told, I wanted more dingbat items before the promotion ends that weren't tied to manses or curios and that anyone could use. I thought items aimed mainly for bashing would be fun; thus, the orclach whips were born. There really isn't much beyond that. If they aren't working as expected, we can adjust them but really I didn't expect much of a conversation about them (le sigh).

    And, Lusternia is " too focused on instant gratification that they sacrificed real content development some time ago"--really? Excuse me while I slit my throat....
    It's not so much that as that there's a lot of us asking for specific things for years, and we rarely ever get them or we're told to go through our envoy for simple fixes, but then we commonly get new things we didn't ask for or need. I'm not saying we don't appreciate what you do, but.... it would be nice if the things we need would come before the things we want in some aspects, especially designers.
    Bob Junior says, "I had a party hook onnce. Lost it iNsiDee of soMe buxsm dracnari maiden, I thiik."
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 5,972 Transcendent
    We get a lot of simple things done through the Simple Ideas thread, so I kind of have to disagree there.  So many lovely convenience things have gone in over the years to make playing easier (and more enjoyable).
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