Afterimage Discussion

Draylor · April 2013

Given the recent report (#1010), I would like to offer the following, but first, the report as it stands right now.

Report #1010
Skillset: Glamours Skill: Flare/Afterimage
Guild: Minstrels Status: Pending
Problem: Glamours is a skillset which, at this point, is beginning to fall behind in many areas. All
of the afflicting skills (colourburst/spray, rainbowpattern, and maelstrom) draw afflictions from a
short list, afflict randomly, and are not "smart". In order to be semi-effective the Glamourist must
spend two balances to get an afterimage on the target which enhances these afflicting skills.
Afterimage only lasts for 20 seconds which is, at best, 3 tics of rainbowpattern (if they're already
afflicted with it before you flare) and 4 from Maelstrom. While other skills are also enhanced, the
length of time and cost in balance slows a Glamourist's offensive to a standstill while also having
to manage deafness in order to keep song effects hitting. This report hopes to make a tertiary skill
more fluid in enemy defense management, something other guilds do not face at the level bards do.
Solution #1: Keeping the power cost as is, change flare to a one balance afflicter of afterimage
rather than needing to already have stripped blind/sixthsense.
Solution #2: In addition to solution 1, extend the length of the afterimage affliction to 24 seconds
(approximately the time it currently takes to strip blind and hit with afterimage.)
Solution #3: As a result of comments: Remove blindness as a defense against Glamours effects such as
rainbowpattern, colourburst/spray and the like. Blindness can still defend against maze and transfix
in order to give flare a reason to exist.
Player Comments:
---[Shuyin on 4/5 @ 05:49 writes]:
Not comfortable with solution 1, since it's basically bypassing the blind mechanic even more, which
is already easy enough to do as a Glamourist. Maybe reduce the EQ cost some? I'm fine with solution
2 though.
---[Kregarn on 4/5 @ 13:06 writes]:
Glamours is a set only available to Bards. In order for music to be effective, we have to manage
deafness which works off of a very similar mechanic as blindness. That means, in order for a
Glamourist to be effective, they have to manage both deafness and blindness at the same time. Both
of these defenses take 2 balances to strip and keep off for any reasonable amount of time. A lot of
times, this means they have to choose one or the other to hit, not both at the same time. Along with
that, they're managing enemy lists and maybe trying to keep octave up. 20 seconds of afterimage is
really nothing when in that time you'll have to blanknote/pfifth again to even start your music
offensive. I don't think many understand the amount of management of OTHER PEOPLE'S defenses a bard
has to do at this point. I also don't believe it's unreasonable to ask that flare be a one balance
attack when the grand majority of offensive abilities that this enhances are completely random, dumb
afflicters and quite slow.
---[Thoros on 4/5 @ 13:16 writes]:
Type MORE to continue reading. (62% shown)
6130h, 5085m, 5400e, 10p, 27900en, 23371w xk<>-more
You continue reading:
I know blindness is a main defense mechanic versus glamours, but I've truly always believed (an i've
never been a bard) that this should be removed. Glamours should hit with it's maximum potential (as
if the target was not blind) all the time. I vote for a solution outside those suggested, for
blindness to not be a defense against glamours anymore (except in the case of maze, and transfix). I
felt after bards came out, the admin made too much of a nerf in the case of colorburst, colorspray,
and rainbowpattern. Not only were the abilities weakened, but they were made slower, too. In short,
I believe blindness should not protect against colorburst, colorspray or rainbowpattern (and
maelstrom too if that's the case) any more.
---[Celina on 4/6 @ 16:18 writes]:
Having to double up on a flare AND use power just so your abilities will be useful has been a pretty
unfair aspect of glamours for a long time. I support any of these, and I'd even support Thoros's
suggestion. It's just random affliction spam that the bard can not control and it's not even masked.
---[Enyalida on 4/6 @ 21:03 writes]:
This is fine. Solution 1+2. If transfix and maze need to be adjusted afterwards, they can be.
---[Shuyin on 4/8 @ 04:02 writes]:
Changed my mind after reading the comments. 1 + 2 is fine now.
---[Kregarn on 4/8 @ 17:18 writes]:
As per the comments above, I've modified solution 3. I would love to see this change as it would
definately go a long way towards making Glamours competative.
---[Kregarn on 4/8 @ 17:21 writes]:
I'd also like to comment that with strategems, even a slowpoke dworf like me can hit people with
maze and transfix without having to have afterimage so concerns about solution 1 and 2 being too
much in those cases would be moot.
---[Zynna on 4/8 @ 20:17 writes]:
Any supported.

As a previous and long standing Glamourist, I would like to offer the following:

This report is far too much. Removing the afterimage requirement would make Glamours, which is one of the more potent affliction based skillsets, far too much.

Let's put things into perspective a moment.. The report is asking for complete and whole removal of the afterimage requirement for associated skills: ColourBurst, ColourSpray, RainbowPattern, Mesmerise, HypnoticPattern and ColourMaelstrom.

Where do we draw the line here? An awful lot of the Glamours skills have an added effect when there is a direct correlation between the used effect and an afterimage. I simply think it will get too much and given the request to have the afflictions delivered 'smartly' will only compound this problem considerably.

Discuss.

Draylor · April 2013

The main thing that needs taking into account here is that the affliction set from Glamours is not the only set delivered. You also have the bard specific skillsets hitting your opponent.

Whilst I do indeed feel that work needs doing on how an afterimage works, I firmly believe this report is a step in the wrong direction.

Morshoth · April 2013

I don't see anything in there about removing afterimage. I just see removing blindness.

Draylor · April 2013

Maybe I worded it wrong, but consider this: (It seems to be explicitly requesting the requirement be removed, as per):

'Change flare to a one balance afflicter of afterimage rather than needing to already have stripped blind/sixthsense'.

There is a moderate power and balance cost on this action for a very good reason.

Morshoth · April 2013

I'm not going to speak on this as a skilled combatant, as I'm not, I'm only moderate, at best, but I do think having to keep up with deafness alone is a pain in the butt, and the blindness is what keeps me from really liking glamours.

Other things would need to be adjusted though, and I can see that.

Draylor · April 2013

Oh, I totally agree. Something definitely needs doing with how an afterimage works, but quite what...

Can you imagine, for example, a Cantor with this sheer afflicting power? It's already wholly possible to almost completely lock down an opponent with Glamours. (Given an afterimage being active).

Synkarin · April 2013

I am curious how often you used afterimage, please provide logs detailing this use. In all my testing, I never really felt the boost was worth the cost and don't really see an affliction overload potential

Draylor · April 2013

You're not a Glamourist, to be fair. I'm really just expressing valid concerns given the fact that I likely know Glamours far better than most people.

Draylor · April 2013

Consider just how powerful this will be in groups when coupled with a ColourMaelstrom and bard n spamming ColourBurst(Spray) - I've hit people for -well- over 4k with a double indigo.

Draylor · April 2013

A Glamourist has two options, mostly. You're either flat out music afflicting for a DC, or you're hindering via the Glamours skillset. While Glamours is indeed a decent skillset offensively, given the chance at hindering afflictions, etc, it's also extremely capable when used in a defensive manner. Melding this together with extreme passive damage -as well as- effective hindering makes it all to simple in my eyes to see a possible issue here.

Synkarin · April 2013

I would like to see a log of this potential, I don't really see a bard spamming color burst as a big deal

Synkarin · April 2013

I realize this is on top of the passives, but I still don't really see it being a big deal

Cyndarin · April 2013

Well, this report was my suggestion (though I won't take full credit, this report has been requested for RL years ever since glamours got impaled by the nerf bat when Mag bards were using it to wreck Celest shortly after its release.) and I was chiefly a glamourist during my time as a harbinger.

Here's the overarching problem of glamourists bards: you are either juggling bnote and earache or you are juggling faeleaf and afterimage to use glamours.

You can't effectively do both because of the short duration of both effects, and the power cost of afterimage and glamours doesn't help the situation. Because you kill with aurics and songs, glamourists end up not using the afterimage mechanic. You can spam your opponent with afflictions and long writhes and whatever, or you can kill them. The choice is usually pretty obvious.

So I guess the concern is that an extended afterimage or afterimage requiring two equilibriums (that are not short like blanknote) will give the bard too much affliction potential. I don't think this is the case. We have to consider what glamours actually is. It's 1) random, 2) a limited pool of afflictions, and 3) not masked. The glamourist can spam colourburst, rainbowpattern, and maelstrom and yes, that is a lot of afflictions. However, keep in mind the previous points and the fact that if you are being barraged with afflictions, the glamourist is using a lot of power and isn't really setting you up for a kill. It'll have value in group fights (that aren't EVERYONE MASH DAMAGE RAAAH) in this incarnation, but I still don't forsee it being a huge change to 1v1. The illusion report IMO will do much more for for 1v1.

The current limitations of afterimage are so harsh that some skills rarely see the light of day. You practically have to go merian or wump to get any use out of them. It's just very clunky and unwieldly (and a heavy handed solution to the early glamours problem). The afterimage mechanic is just awkward and needs a mix of solutions 1 and 2.

I guess my general stance is that Glamours is a group skillset. Bards just aren't designed to capitalize on or press curing. Bard is about timing and intelligent tracking of a very specific set of afflictions while trying to stay alive and stationary (which doing both at the same time can be pretty difficult).

Now, double indigo spam might be an issue, but I suspect the better solution to the proposed indigo problem if it does, indeed, exist is to not limit glamours becuase of the one off indigo bomb, but rather address indigo individually. In the big picture, spamming glamours trying to get indigo bombs is probably not the most effective and efficient use of a bard's time. I would also say that it's equally likely that you get double reckless hits, which is pretty valueless.

Draylor · April 2013

Synkarin said:

I realize this is on top of the passives, but I still don't really see it being a big deal

Care to elaborate with some actual tangible reasoning, please? Much better than just blanket claiming the issues presented are unwarranted.

Cyndarin · April 2013

It's kind of hard to explain why something won't be a big deal, just because it's arguing the absence of something which is kind of confusing. It's easier for the person who disagree to give examples as to why it would be a big deal.

Draylor · April 2013

@Celina: Yeah... I expected as much from you. Solid arguments and reasoning... Thanks.

To quickly address those raised: While I completely agree with the 1vs1 aspect as you stated, we cannot use this as a reason to approve this, given just how powerful this could turn into within a group setting.

Bards are hardly starved for further afflicting power right now. As aforementioned, a bard can either go down the, "RARRRR, I KEEL YOU!" or down the, "Shit, you're killing me" route... There is that -option- there. Just because a few skills seem under par, should be go ahead and just buff them? I'd have to say no in this instance.

As for how to address the indigo bomb, the only real way to do this both easily and effectively, in my opinion, would be to place an upper limit to the damage that it can deal. Setting in nerfs to the damage calculations would harm the effect overall, rather than targeting the min/maxers where this issue would be most apparent.

Synkarin · April 2013

Your asking me for tangible reasoning while providing none yourself? I asked for logs twice already, giving you a chance to provide evidence to your statements.

The boost that afterimage provides isn't worth the cost, in my opinion. I can't recall ever seeing you use afterimage, or anyone else, to the effects you are suggesting, and would like to see evidence of such. Until then, I don't see why you would sit still, and actively hinder if you were going to die when you could just run, heal up and save your power.

Cyndarin · April 2013

Bards really aren't that great afflicters IMO. Passives included. Sure some do better than others (harbs have pretty poor afflicting for instance, while caco do a bit better because their skills are designed for it) but overall the method in which they afflict with glamours and passives is widely random and uncontrolled.

I mean, even with this change we aren't talking illuminati level of afflicting. Bards are the most balanced archetype which I think allows them to test something out like this. If specific instances of issues pop up they can be addressed as they come, but I think the rng and just the nature of this change kind of limits how abuseable any unforeseen issues will be

Draylor · April 2013

Synkarin said:

Your asking me for tangible reasoning while providing none yourself? I asked for logs twice already, giving you a chance to provide evidence to your statements. The boost that afterimage provides isn't worth the cost, in my opinion. I can't recall ever seeing you use afterimage, or anyone else, to the effects you are suggesting, and would like to see evidence of such. Until then, I don't see why you would sit still, and actively hinder if you were going to die when you could just run, heal up and save your power.

One would have thought the mere fact I played a Glamourist for well over a year should be sufficient for most people, but hey...

Ciaran · April 2013

I can't decide which argument I prefer. The person saying he played a bard so he doesn't need evidence, or the person who says bards are the most balanced class so we should buff them...

Hmmm.

Synkarin · April 2013

Draylor said:

Synkarin said:

Your asking me for tangible reasoning while providing none yourself? I asked for logs twice already, giving you a chance to provide evidence to your statements.

The boost that afterimage provides isn't worth the cost, in my opinion. I can't recall ever seeing you use afterimage, or anyone else, to the effects you are suggesting, and would like to see evidence of such. Until then, I don't see why you would sit still, and actively hinder if you were going to die when you could just run, heal up and save your power.

One would have thought the mere fact I played a Glamourist for well over a year should be sufficient for most people, but hey...

And having been a bard for well over a year as well, a significant portion as glamours lends credence to my opinion as well. Thus the need for more concrete evidence.

Also, flagging my responses to your remarks toward me is just silly.

Draylor · April 2013

It's bloody clear to everybody that I have no such logs, given my propensity to just damage spam under blackout, though regardless, would it not be safe to assume that somebody who has extensive experience in a skillset knows a damned sight more than somebody else who has never used it?

Cyndarin · April 2013

Believe it or not, you can make improvements that don't imbalance things. Thanks for trolling ciaran! You're just a big help.

Xenthos · April 2013

Throwing around troll-flags, curses, and inflammatory statements does not help *any* argument (either for or against). It just detracts significantly from your points.

Synkarin · April 2013

Draylor said:
It's bloody clear to everybody that I have no such logs, given my propensity to just damage spam under blackout, though regardless, would it not be safe to assume that somebody who has extensive experience in a skillset knows a damned sight more than somebody else who has never used it?

I have used Glamours, I just said so in my previous post. I've tested it quite a bit. I've used it in both group and 1v1. You were at some of these group fights I used it in. I still stand by my opinion that afterimage isn't with using.

From what I have read, you only think it's useful in defense mode, which may be true, but if I am able to attack at all, I an going for the kill, not playing defense.

Eventru · April 2013

I really feel like this is a discussion that should be carried out on the report by envoys, versus every report being dragged to the forums for a hostile tit-for-tat dispute. I'm not going to close it just yet, but a some of the comments/posts really are making me feel like it should be, with the caveat that if you have opinions, you should share them with your envoy so that they can be expressed in the proper venue.

To further my point, the Minstrel envoy is welcome to submit whatever he likes, and from a review perspective, 99% of the posts in this thread probably won't even be considered (I've certainly missed anything substantive in the back-and-forth) - it's in the report comments where we actually get opinions/perspectives on reports. We have enough to read there - we don't need to go through the forums to find every comment, opinion or thread on a given point, too.

Draylor · April 2013

Synkarin said:

It's bloody clear to everybody that I have no such logs, given my propensity to just damage spam under blackout, though regardless, would it not be safe to assume that somebody who has extensive experience in a skillset knows a damned sight more than somebody else who has never used it?
I have used Glamours, I just said so in my previous post. I've tested it quite a bit. I've used it in both group and 1v1. You were at some of these group fights I used it in. I still stand by my opinion that afterimage isn't with using. From what I have read, you only think it's useful in defense mode, which may be true, but if I am able to attack at all, I an going for the kill, not playing defense.

You're almost entirely just repeating what I have already stated, heh.

Synkarin · April 2013

Right, I was summarizing your argument and then saying why would anyone do that?

I have talked to both the Minstrel and harbinger envoys by the by.

Cyndarin · April 2013

Well looks like this discussion has been invaded by an unhealthy group flagging randomly posts, trolling, and trying to stir up an otherwise cordial discussion. Too bad, this thread didn't have to go that route! I think it best for me to leave my opinion as is and let ciaran, malicia, and iasmos claim this one.

Xenthos · April 2013

I don't even understand the reasoning behind reporting to the forum administration as "abuse" a post that is asking both sides to stop doing it because it does nothing but detract from the arguments at hand.

Maybe I just don't get the fascination with creating more work and frustration where it's not needed. Perhaps some day we will actually be able to have a civil discussion where both sides are willing to actually talk, not just try to brow beat each other.

One can always dream.

Karlach · April 2013

It gets silly when people take a fantasy game's political setup to to the ridiculous level of petty flagging of posts and abusing what is suppose to be used as a moderation feature on an OOC forum.

It makes me wonder if there are people with posters of their respective Divines on the walls at home that they look at while snuggling down in their city/commune thematic bedding, wrapped up nice and warm in matching pyjamas. Because while fanboyism and a bit of pride in your faction is one thing, abusing mechanics designed to overall improve the playerbase enjoyment both in and out of game is a step too far.

(In before someone designs Eventru themed pyjamas)

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