1. Leave the Drain and remove the offering Malus (non Order members from other cities don't have offering maluses, so why should an Order member who lives in another city) -or- 2. Just tell Gods they can't have Order members from outside their Org.
I voted: Maybe. Not because I have plans to leave, but because a year is a long time and anything can happen in a year.
What could be done to help people with staying? The Envoy system is falling behind, Reports are drastically behind so some envoys are feeling like they cannot change the face of combat, an argued over major factor in Lusternia, in any meaningful way because reports they put in a year ago are only now being dealt with. (I am not faulting any particular admin in charge of this, because life happens, just stating issues)
You have a lot of Admins holding RP God Roles and not doing a damn thing with those roles. There are a few amazingly great gods, a couple that even post in the Absence thread apologising that they can't be around for a couple weeks, but then you have ones that are "around" and ignore their city, Order, patron requests. To players that enjoy Order RP this is a major setback, that also leads to the whole "join an Order in another Org cause at least that God shows up and RPs"
I don't know how factual this one is, but it feels to some that you are out of touch with the game lately. Your asking what can be done, and your post in the ascension thread acknowledging players views on the matter were HUGE steps to a lot of people, like I don't know if you are even aware of how much people said "Woah! That was great of Estarra to post that." So, if the "out of touch" is even partially true, then perhaps drawing yourself back to the game more is needed too.
So, I hope none of that offended it is just rambling thoughts on things I have seen/heard.
For the most part - we're caught up on envoy reports.
There are a handful of accepted reports left undone. Some of them are related to special reports and are waiting on those to finish before implementing in case they no longer become relevant. Some are larger undertakings, such as the temporary tattoo report. Some are just open ended and accepted acknowledging the issue, but not sure on what action should be taken (like the Aethercraft ramming, or the anatine reports).
I agree with you 100% that the reports lagging behind makes the job of an envoy really tough and it makes it difficult to put forth reports without knowing how previously approved reports work out in game. It is being worked on. Once a decision is made on Feb 2018 reports, we'll work on getting those out.
On the other end of things, as a mostly culture person who is mostly inactive and put down a maybe:
-Bardics going away was huge for me. Personally, I assume they're not coming back at this point. Updating them has been in process for a really long time, so I have to guess that it's been tabled. But bringing them back would be nice. Even without credits, if that has turned into a problem. I just covet the honors line.
-The library really, really needs a consistent scoring rubric. That rubric needs to be public. I've stopped doing library stuff because I got tired of trying to guess what the admin was looking for. Not just on matters of taste, either. Basic things, like 'Are scholarly books supposed to be based purely on things that can be observed in game and judged in part on truthfulness, or are they judged on quality of writing without regard for factual accuracy?' Just going on prestige comments, there's pretty compelling evidence that some gods judge on accuracy and others ignore it. If the basic requirements change based on which admin happen to be around to judge that contest, you cannot treat it as a competition and try to appeal to the judges.
Honestly, culture as a whole feels like a largely abandoned set of systems. Which is probably the correct choice since only a small number of people care about them, but it does reduce interest for people who do care.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
So I keep hearing this a lot but I really want to put my 2c in on the matter. People collectively refer to 'admin' as a lot of things. What seems to be overlooked time and time again is that a lot of people collective ya'll refer to as 'admin' are volunteers going more than out of their way to make the gameplay experience fulfilling and enjoyable. I might have been lucky, but I've never had an interaction with an RP God Role that I didn't enjoy. As Yarith I never really sought out any gods apart from a flirting with Nocht at the very start and my late flings with Czixi (who is the absolute B O M B btw), and to me those were supplementary to what I actively sought in the game, but they all contributed to my enjoyment.
I think it's really harsh and misunderstanding to say 'the RP God roles aren't doing anything'. I think they do much, much, much more than they are ever given credit.
I didn't want to speak up about why I am retiring Yarith, but since I've been spurred to comment on this thread I'll divulge that, for my own reasons, it has absolutely nothing to do with interactions with RP Gods or the restrictions/limitations/whatever on them.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
The envoy system has many issues. It's contentious and enervating. I don't think, in any way, I'm wrong in saying that people have more than burnt out merely in engaging with envoys.
The state of combat balance is whatever. Some of it works, some of it works really well, some of it is busted.
Everybody understands that it's a work in progress. Everyone understand that there's only so many coder fingers capable and willing of slinging and digging through code.
But the environment in this game, surrounding pvp, surrounding envoy reports is really heavy and toxic. I'm pretty certain I can inb4 that I'm going to have people tell me 'it's because of your approach' or 'you're abrasive' but I honestly think you'll find a great majority of people agree with me, even if they won't be confident enough to say something. Some of the people who have been envoys the longest have avoided envoying things simply because of the drama that surrounds it.
I don't think, with a game in the shape and status that Lusternia's combat environment is in, that's a luxury ya'll can afford. What's worse is I'm not sure how you're going to be able to fix it. Perhaps, even worse than that, are the people who insist, much like on the stances of combat, that there's 'nothing wrong'. It's that attitude that generates the disenfranchisement that resonates with a lot of people I personally enjoyed engaging in PVP alongside.
Edit: Also. Let's not kid ourselves. Solution 4, especially without consulting THE ACTUAL USERS OF THE SKILLSET FIRST, really, really sucks. I'm going to ramble a bit more and say that, for a lot of cases, fixing things with envoys is counterproductive. You fill a single report with a lot, or you submit several reports to work in tandem. Often a single sol 4 in any of those regions, or a single reject, ruins everything. This is just the tip of the iceberg regarding envoys. I could ramble all day.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
I really, really did love most of my time in Lusternia though. For the longest time it filled a void in my life I couldn't find elsewhere. The most of you are wonderful. It merely turned into a pvp game for me as time went on, however, and that's when things took a turn for me. Lusternia will always be something special to me, even if I didn't like the last few bites as much.
Edit: It's the last one, I swear. I won't quadrapost.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
@Estarra I voted yes because Skanylla's character arc was royally messed up by the old guilds disappearing and i just don't feel like starting a new character with a fresh story after pouring one and half a years to developing Skanylla. I don't find the current position of Skanylla enjoyable to play. Basically these days she's handing out vigilante justice and planning to take down the corruption she thinks is rampant in New Celest after she no longer has the old paladins guild to back her up on fighting the tainted. She's a zealot and proud of it. On top of that she was never caught lying during her adventuring career.
But yeah, i just don't see how Skanylla could continue from this moment onwards without violating the holy paladin code too much. She would likely go into deep depression if she lost her faith and then consider suicide. Let's not RP that please.
I have to say that I think you might have a point there; Lusternia has never been a PvP game for me. There are some PvP elements but I tend to play it as a more comprehensive thing, and that is a large part of why I am still here. I go through periods of focusing on other things with Lusternia open on the side as a bit of a "refresher" period, but I always return fully. I find Lusternia to just be more flexible and provides more overall than other games.
A community that does not require smashing other people is huge for me. If I was just to treat it as a PvP game... well, there are tons of other games out there that have a PvP focus (and even graphics too) and, as such, are going to fill that role much better because that is what they are built to do.
Ticked the 'Maybe' option because I don't plan on retiring either of my characters (not Arkh, the actual active ones) but I am spending more of my time back in another IRE game. I think I got spoiled by the sheer population size (relatively), which really does wonders on activity, development, and enjoyment.
I think it's really harsh and misunderstanding to say 'the RP God roles aren't doing anything'. I think they do much, much, much more than they are ever given credit.
So, I didn't mean to say that Admins do nothing. I intentionally did not comment on the behind the scenes activities that Admins perform, because I cannot judge that, none of us can unless they come out and specifically say 'I built/coded/ran that"
What I was saying is that there are a number of Volunteers that take roles and don't perform in those roles, which leaves people feeling disenfranchised. People are excited that this God just came out or the god they love returned only to have an Order as silent as a nunnery. I have not only witnessed it first hand, I have watched people leave Orders they love the concept of because the Volunteer that took over that role has not engaged it in any manner that would make people want to stick around. I have listened to people state they would leave an Order if it wasn't for the fact that they hold a high rank with many privs, as well.
I have had people ask, and heard people ask, "Who can I offer to for favours?" Now, being in an Order should not be about "favours" or "powers", but both of those make a huge difference in a lot of aspects of Lusternia. So you have people who won't join an Order because the Volunteer does not engage in it, or they will sit in an Order they love the concept of and offer to another Order because that Volunteer appears to be engaged.
I absolutely understand that wearing multiple hats; coder/builder/family life/rp takes it toll, I am not unfamiliar with these concepts. However, the Volunteers that engage their City and their Order are the exception not the rule.
I also 100% applaud those Volunteers that can manage all those aspects, and any Volunteers that do work hard behind the scenes. Lusternia would not be as fascinating if it was not for their hard work on the Admin level and that should never be dismissed out of hand.
So, again, if I offended or upset anyone that was absolutely not my intention. There are a lot of areas where people feel upset in Lusternia and I was just listing what I have seen or heard in various echo chambers.
I never got involved majorly in combat, and I think avoiding the hostility and occasional toxicity of that environment is what has allowed me to stick around and keep enjoying the game. Which is why I am continually baffled when I am drawn to combat classes
For the most part - we're caught up on envoy reports.
There are a handful of accepted reports left undone. Some of them are related to special reports and are waiting on those to finish before implementing in case they no longer become relevant. Some are larger undertakings, such as the temporary tattoo report. Some are just open ended and accepted acknowledging the issue, but not sure on what action should be taken (like the Aethercraft ramming, or the anatine reports).
I agree with you 100% that the reports lagging behind makes the job of an envoy really tough and it makes it difficult to put forth reports without knowing how previously approved reports work out in game. It is being worked on. Once a decision is made on Feb 2018 reports, we'll work on getting those out.
You forgot to respond to the below part by Tenaka. --------- You have a lot of Admins holding RP God Roles and not doing a damn thing with those roles. There are a few amazingly great gods, a couple that even post in the Absence thread apologising that they can't be around for a couple weeks, but then you have ones that are "around" and ignore their city, Order, patron requests. To players that enjoy Order RP this is a major setback, that also leads to the whole "join an Order in another Org cause at least that God shows up and RPs"----------
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I didn't forget to respond, I chose not to respond.
But as it seems you want a response, here you go.
I agree with him. Players enjoy interacting with RP Gods and a lack of interaction can be disappointing. It's undeniable and more players would enjoy more interactions with their Gods and their Orders. It certainly would lend more reason for people to stay and not want to leave.
I can't speak for anyone but myself when it comes to this part, but frankly, I don't derive a lot of enjoyment from RP. I don't feel I do the job justice. I see what the other admin do, and I feel overwhelmed, even knowing that I'm not expected to meet those standards. I typically walk away from any RP interaction or event upset and disappointed at myself because I know what I would enjoy as a player and I don't think I'm able to deliver that. It makes it difficult for me to approach interactions with players.
When I started my order, I laid some general guidelines and direction (mostly in an attempt to make sure that it wasn't all about drinking whiskey) and then tried to give them the tools to make it what they wanted. I tried to impress that I was going to be hands-off and once it got started, I didn't really interfere except to help with requests etc. I tried to add a voice to issues going on in Gaudiguch, but again, I didn't want to interfere too much and let the players really have a say in what's occurring in the city. It's a delicate line, and I'm not sure I dance around it well. I've seen players complain from both sides, that so and so is too involved and to hands-on, or that so and so doesn't do enough. It's a precarious position to be in and is just compounded by my own feelings.
We do have amazing RP Gods that do incredible things. They work extremely hard on giving those interactions the players in their organizations and orders. I completely understand that someone in Gaudiguch or my order would look over at those others and feel jealous. I'm jealous of them myself.
My enjoyment as an admin is on the coding side of things. I've done a lot of work there, some of it well received and others not so much, but that's where I find my enjoyment, so I tend to focus more on that than on the RP functions of my role.
@Kalikai It is interesting to see a divine have the same reservation about RPing with players as I do with divine. (I went to talk to Czixi as Esoneyuna and she talked back I pretty much freaked out and probably bored her to death).
I think the largest annoyance about divine that I currently feel is that as a Gaudi we were at some point involved with a Czixi-Mysrai-Tear of Zvolt story line, but the Gaudiguch involvement seemed more as plot device for Hallifax. I don't know if that is because we simply missed the clues, lacked participants or if it really wasn't intended for us or Mysrai got to busy to continue. I just find it unfortunate as it looked interesting and was a diversion of the Gaudi infighting.
I also think players being more and more in conflict OOCly is more an issue than any divine activity, it might have been somewhat averted in Gaudiguch by people moving but it is still present in a more game wide fashion. And not in the usual pvp game rivalry sense.
One thing that has been a particular frustration is that some classes seem to have fallen into a "bad" pile, and it doesn't feel like there is progress out of that.
When you have a class that looks cool on the surface, potentially drop money to get to trans, it's not great to then get told you should probably switch because it's just not good.
From talking it seems like classes that were in this group years ago that are still there. Which is far longer than some people will play this game and seems like an indicator that the envoy system doesn't work in this case.
Like, there's only so much the envoys can do and that's before you consider interest in specific classes and terts. There seems like there really needs to be a point where the admin take over.
One thing that has been a particular frustration is that some classes seem to have fallen into a "bad" pile, and it doesn't feel like there is progress out of that.
When you have a class that looks cool on the surface, potentially drop money to get to trans, it's not great to then get told you should probably switch because it's just not good.
From talking it seems like classes that were in this group years ago that are still there. Which is far longer than some people will play this game and seems like an indicator that the envoy system doesn't work in this case.
Like, there's only so much the envoys can do and that's before you consider interest in specific classes and terts. There seems like there really needs to be a point where the admin take over.
I haven't voted in the poll. I don't plan to leave, but I have been close at least twice since the end of the year and taken some time off both times. The stable state for retention for me involves enjoying combat, which I currently do not. I have enough other stuff happening that I love to keep me here for now. The real or apparent departure of several friends makes that harder with each loss. (I wrote real or apparent in the draft several days ago, and kept it, despite some of those retirements being finalized. RIP my friends.)
"What could we do to make you want to stay?"
Take seriously the concerns of people who are no longer having fun before you have burned through their patience and goodwill.
At the end of the day, I don't think anything a leaving player would say here will be new. It's likely the same concerns they've had and been voicing for months or years. They aren't leaving because things are broken, they're leaving because they've run out of hope that things will be fixed in their play-lifetime and realize their energy and free time can be better spent on a game they can spend their time playing rather than trying (failing) to fix.
If people have had these concerns for a long time, and they have run out of patience and goodwill, then either they weren't being heard, they weren't being taken seriously, or the fixes are too slow in coming. Or, more likely, some combination of those three things.
If Admin sees that certain mechanics - or the lack of certain mechanics, in the cases where player actions are 'allowed' - are alienating half your player base, perhaps those concerns should be taken more seriously instead of being written off as whining. Perhaps some changes need to come un-begged-for and without the tooth and nail fight and enormous delay of envoy reports. Feedback and anti-feedback loops to reward and regulate player behaviors that are both fun AND healthy for the game as a whole. Adjustments to conflict systems instead of leaving the game in a state where 50% of the game clearly wants more PvP and will force the other half into it - on the aggressor's terms - to the detriment of literally everybody.
How about looking at all the 'choices' that really aren't choices, like the dozen unplayed races, unplayed archetypes, unused tertiaries, before teasing us with a new archetype? Yeah, I get it that people will be excited and spend money to classflex to something that isn't massively outdated, but we shouldn't have to do that to be minimally viable, and it just looks greedy.
You need more resources into game design level work, not just programming. I know there are ideas and plans and SR's, and that a lot of good changes have been made, but there is a lot to be done. Conflict, Economy, Trade Skills, all systems that can keep people engaged but are either fragile or broken. A good, hard look at big design decisions and ways to resolve them, even retroactively, whether that's offering 'permanent' things that would normally require trade interaction to keep up, or giving universal access to skills like IllusorySelf on a wonderitem.
If I were in charge, the first thing I would do would be massive data gathering. I don't know what internal metrics you have for retention/churn, usage of certain races/archetypes/skillchoices (cross-tabulated by primary activity of users), instigation of player-driven events (from Domoths to raids) by aggressor, target, time zone, etc. Population change by org over time, referenced by org-centric events and Divine activity levels. Retirement rates.
On top of that, you need more unbiased and anonymous data about what your players think and want than reading forums or watching clans will give you. Put together something on Survey Monkey, ask people all these questions that people complain about and see more than just a vocal minority. Ask people what class/skills they would choose if they didn't have to change orgs/RP. Ask what race they would be if there were no or equal benefits.
There are a few comments in the thread about Envoys, which I want to touch on. Standard Envoy reports are not a good avenue to rework skillsets or classes that are far, far behind the curve. The scope and length, the need to get some general agreement (which means general understanding) and have it feasible to implement limits that. Envoys are often consulted on Special Report issues, which I think is great, but ultimately the Envoy system works best to make relatively small, focused, incremental changes to address places where balance concerns can be somewhat isolated. It is a prime place to suggest small improvements to a recently designed, modern era class that is close to being 'good' like Tessenchi. It is not a place to fix Blademasters (or whatever your pet 'class that sucks' is) or any class past a certain level of broken/outdatedness. (I am happy to be proven wrong here. For example, @Karlach has some ideas for Cacophony that sound like they could be done in a report or two that would make the class substantially more functional and less outdated.) Envoys are not (necessarily) Game Designers - they are consultants, people who bring the concerns of the players to admin and suggest solutions or give opinions as representatives of the people. It is not a crutch for a shortage of energy/resources on the Game Design level of the game as a whole. Honestly, I think Envoys end up reporting many things that Admin should be able to see and change before we suggest it, let alone leaving it for months while it is reported, voted, decided, implemented (or worse, kicked back for another iteration).
Last - I know @Ianir does a lot of stuff and has ambitious ideas and plans to address a lot of things I think need addressing. But he's only one guy and can only do so much so fast. I do want to thank him for the good work he has done and be clear I'm not denigrating that work. I am saying that more needs to be done, faster than he can do it alone, if you want people not to burn out and feel like their concerns are subservient to monthly promotions or new things you can sell us now that our old toys are broken.
I wish I could play your game without posting to the forums. Without reporting and arguing to make mechanics functional if not also fun. I wish I were not watching my friends leave, whether temporarily or permanently. But I don't get those choices, so I will do what I can to exhort and recommend you make this game the game we all want it to be, that we all wish we were playing.
@Ejderha Wow, that's a lot to unload! Unfortunately, we don't have the resources to get more resources, and foregoing monthly promotions means we'd have even less resources (because, believe it or not, they do work) which would result in losing the little resources we have. So I guess it's a little of a Catch 22, but raging at promotions is not going to be productive. Anyway, I have to disagree with the statement that all our systems are fragile or broken. However, that doesn't mean that we aren't open to constructive critiques. Throwing a handful of spaghetti at the wall (i.e., everything is broken, fix it) probably won't stick or get much of a response. What's more helpful, if anyone wants to help, is posting a well thought out proposal focusing on one aspect of the game, whether it's the economy or a skill system or domoths or whatever. Keep in mind, of course, since we do have limited resources, that address some concerns may take time.
I speak personally as someone who was never very deeply invested in the RP aspects of Lusternia. The story is the strength of Lusternia, without a doubt. So the coming harsh review should be taken with a huge grain of salt. I'm looking at Lusternia without putting much weight into its greatest asset. Here goes:
Players lived through a 2 year combat overhaul that was supposed to make future updates easier, rebalancing easier, etc.
Nothing improved. After all that work, is combat in Lusternia actually any better than it was back then? Most classes don't even have a SINGLE viable kill route 1v1, much less something interesting and entertaining, or heaven forbid, multiple options. Big props to Ianir and other admin for making SSC, it's a big step forward, but if fighting itself is no fun, it's moot.
I'm inactive because there are better games out there. It's nothing personal, but PvP in Lusternia is pay to win garbage, despite it having such a huge place in my heart.
Can it get better? Yes, definitely. I know all hands are on deck to make it so. Has it gotten better in the last 3 years? No, not really. Most of what has changed in the last 3 years is that there are now 5 wonderitems that you will have to drop 2000 dollars on to try to be top tier. One can only go on so long expecting improvement before realizing that they're at least slightly delusional.
So, that's why my interest has waned. Lusternia felt like a treadmill that was trying to vacuum up my money in moments of weakness. (Not accusing admin of anything, that's just my relationship with the game)
I didn't forget to respond, I chose not to respond.
But as it seems you want a response, here you go.
I agree with him. Players enjoy interacting with RP Gods and a lack of interaction can be disappointing. It's undeniable and more players would enjoy more interactions with their Gods and their Orders. It certainly would lend more reason for people to stay and not want to leave.
I can't speak for anyone but myself when it comes to this part, but frankly, I don't derive a lot of enjoyment from RP. I don't feel I do the job justice. I see what the other admin do, and I feel overwhelmed, even knowing that I'm not expected to meet those standards. I typically walk away from any RP interaction or event upset and disappointed at myself because I know what I would enjoy as a player and I don't think I'm able to deliver that. It makes it difficult for me to approach interactions with players.
When I started my order, I laid some general guidelines and direction (mostly in an attempt to make sure that it wasn't all about drinking whiskey) and then tried to give them the tools to make it what they wanted. I tried to impress that I was going to be hands-off and once it got started, I didn't really interfere except to help with requests etc. I tried to add a voice to issues going on in Gaudiguch, but again, I didn't want to interfere too much and let the players really have a say in what's occurring in the city. It's a delicate line, and I'm not sure I dance around it well. I've seen players complain from both sides, that so and so is too involved and to hands-on, or that so and so doesn't do enough. It's a precarious position to be in and is just compounded by my own feelings.
We do have amazing RP Gods that do incredible things. They work extremely hard on giving those interactions the players in their organizations and orders. I completely understand that someone in Gaudiguch or my order would look over at those others and feel jealous. I'm jealous of them myself.
My enjoyment as an admin is on the coding side of things. I've done a lot of work there, some of it well received and others not so much, but that's where I find my enjoyment, so I tend to focus more on that than on the RP functions of my role.
I really can't fault you for any of that, and I applaud you for working so hard for the game. I'm just disappointed that your work often takes precedence over responding to your order for weeks at a time. They know you're there, you're speaking pretty often on the envoy channel.
I know it can be hectic as a god to try and balance everything, but I also know that as a mortal player, nothing is more disappointing than a god showing up, or maybe being taken up by a second admin, and just having them disappear. Yes, it's a volunteer position. Yes, I should be happy with whatever they're able to give. No, that doesn't mean I'm not going to complain if they just poof. I know real life happens, and I know you can't always just stand around and be at our beck and call, but I think it's reasonable for us to expect you to actually interact with us once in a while.
As for the roleplay part, I get it. I really don't know what advice to give beyond urging you to jump out there and roleplay anyway. If you make a mistake, so what? Any good player will overlook your typos, and anyone who doesn't isn't worth you roleplaying with. There are some of us who log on just for the chance to roleplay with someone else, and divine should be a goldmine of roleplay. I have no clue what the last Kalikai left you in the way of notes, but why not work on fleshing yourself out to Gaudiguch and the rest of Lusternia?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Throwing a handful of spaghetti at the wall (i.e., everything is broken, fix it) probably won't stick or get much of a response. What's more helpful, if anyone wants to help, is posting a well thought out proposal focusing on one aspect of the game, whether it's the economy or a skill system or domoths or whatever. Keep in mind, of course, since we do have limited resources, that address some concerns may take time.
This is a big issue tbh.
We're players, we're customers. This is something we play to get away from work and life stress, it's really not our job to be coming up with fixes for everything that's broken in this game, and that flow is what causes the issues many classes are seeing.
Envoys can only fix so much, they only have so much interest. At the same time if players outside the envoy group want to make suggestions they need to try to force them through the envoys which is of varying difficulty depending on the envoys. Then you have classes where pretty much everyone has given up so you only have a couple of people who can't really come up with suggestions for a fix.
I've seen players regularly talking about ways to fix other stuff that's broken but little seems to come of this, I've seen the frustration of players that have put in the time and effort to come up with ideas only to see them dismissed. Which does lead to a lot of obvious frustrations, cause fixes aren't going through and they have to continue dealing with something they don't like.
And, when you take a step back from all of that, this is really shifting a lot of responsibility onto the players. For example, what's the solution for fixing a class when the remaining players have lost interest it and the disappointment of that class is driving players away?
@saran You're right it's not your job to come up with fixes for anything that is (allegedly) broken in the game, but if you have a particular concern, even if you don't have a perfect solution, I'm saying we're open to hear it. But of course you're under no obligation to do that nor was I saying we're sitting around twiddling our thumbs waiting for players to drop suggestions in our laps. We do have plans to look into specific classes and skillsets and whatnot, but as I emphasized before, we do not have unlimited resources and things happen, both in-game and out-of-game, that we have no control over. It's up to you whether or not to help us help you, but again, even if you don't, we'll continue forward.
1 - Remove Affinity drain on Offerings 2 - Wonder Crystals for sale in Artifact shop. This is because there are so many damn things and promos to buy more usually only coincide with a new wonderitem, compounding the problem. I am sure you will find you make small amounts of revenue from consistent crystal buying from the shop, over the occasional bursts of revenue you make when you release a new item. It's win-win. 3. More mortal Coders? I don't know how feasible this is. 4. I don't know what is going on with bardics/artisinals, but a number of people have voiced upset over this in the past. Maybe reviewing a new source of the same thing? 5. Everyone loves new shiny stuff, but is it better for the long term health of the game to release new shiny stuff or make sure the current stuff is not outdated and everyone is in a situation where they feel 'happy'. Skills, trades, races. I would take a serious review of this situation in another thread maybe.
@Estarra maybe more visibility could help? Like what features and classes are being looked at, acknowledgements that stuff is on the list and involvement of the broader community could at least allay some of the feelings.
Something accessible in game would also be better because some avoid the forums. And maybe some review of “feedback” channels. (It’s really disturbing to me that there’s no outreach for going inactive and cancelling elite)
also like, it would be amazing to see a sit down where the outcome is a decent outline of how each valid combination of guild skills is meant to work. This would help inform newbies about their decisions and it would provide a scope for each of those combos, if it can’t be done for a combo then that’s an issue and if a combo fulfills it’s scope then focus should go to the combos that don’t or don’t even have one.
So, as someone who pretty much solely plays these games for the roleplay, I've always wondered why the God roles are welded to coding responsibilities. That's a lot to expect of volunteers who often have busy lives of their own, so why not divorce the coding role and the RP of the actual God? Seems to me that it'd make the staff that prefer to simply code, as well as the ones that prefer only to RP, both happier, and likely result in more visible, interactive and present Divine. If I remember correctly, didn't one of the other IRE games do just that recently?
Not to totally re-direct this from Admins, but as a player following (unless rogue) a leader, what are aspects you want to see more of that interest you that a city leader/council can do? I ask people "What can I do for you as your prettiest princess?" to make your play time interesting. I'm at the point where interest is so low to participate in my city, I'm looking at new avenues to take. What's some stuff that I, Avurekhos, Deichtine, Steingrim, Luce, and Sondayga could possibly look at discussing in our secret clan that controls the Basin?
@Asarian Volunteers/gods are usually not coders. There are exceptions when a volunteer requests to code, but that is certainly not the rule. All gods do need to know a scripting language to program mobs, quests, etc., but that's not quite the same as coding. I am not a proponent of RP-only gods for Lusternia.
Comments
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2. Just tell Gods they can't have Order members from outside their Org.
I voted: Maybe. Not because I have plans to leave, but because a year is a long time and anything can happen in a year.
@Estarra
What could be done to help people with staying?
The Envoy system is falling behind, Reports are drastically behind so some envoys are feeling like they cannot change the face of combat, an argued over major factor in Lusternia, in any meaningful way because reports they put in a year ago are only now being dealt with. (I am not faulting any particular admin in charge of this, because life happens, just stating issues)
You have a lot of Admins holding RP God Roles and not doing a damn thing with those roles. There are a few amazingly great gods, a couple that even post in the Absence thread apologising that they can't be around for a couple weeks, but then you have ones that are "around" and ignore their city, Order, patron requests. To players that enjoy Order RP this is a major setback, that also leads to the whole "join an Order in another Org cause at least that God shows up and RPs"
I don't know how factual this one is, but it feels to some that you are out of touch with the game lately. Your asking what can be done, and your post in the ascension thread acknowledging players views on the matter were HUGE steps to a lot of people, like I don't know if you are even aware of how much people said "Woah! That was great of Estarra to post that." So, if the "out of touch" is even partially true, then perhaps drawing yourself back to the game more is needed too.
So, I hope none of that offended it is just rambling thoughts on things I have seen/heard.
There are a handful of accepted reports left undone. Some of them are related to special reports and are waiting on those to finish before implementing in case they no longer become relevant. Some are larger undertakings, such as the temporary tattoo report. Some are just open ended and accepted acknowledging the issue, but not sure on what action should be taken (like the Aethercraft ramming, or the anatine reports).
I agree with you 100% that the reports lagging behind makes the job of an envoy really tough and it makes it difficult to put forth reports without knowing how previously approved reports work out in game. It is being worked on. Once a decision is made on Feb 2018 reports, we'll work on getting those out.
-Bardics going away was huge for me. Personally, I assume they're not coming back at this point. Updating them has been in process for a really long time, so I have to guess that it's been tabled. But bringing them back would be nice. Even without credits, if that has turned into a problem. I just covet the honors line.
-The library really, really needs a consistent scoring rubric. That rubric needs to be public. I've stopped doing library stuff because I got tired of trying to guess what the admin was looking for. Not just on matters of taste, either. Basic things, like 'Are scholarly books supposed to be based purely on things that can be observed in game and judged in part on truthfulness, or are they judged on quality of writing without regard for factual accuracy?' Just going on prestige comments, there's pretty compelling evidence that some gods judge on accuracy and others ignore it. If the basic requirements change based on which admin happen to be around to judge that contest, you cannot treat it as a competition and try to appeal to the judges.
Honestly, culture as a whole feels like a largely abandoned set of systems. Which is probably the correct choice since only a small number of people care about them, but it does reduce interest for people who do care.
I think it's really harsh and misunderstanding to say 'the RP God roles aren't doing anything'. I think they do much, much, much more than they are ever given credit.
I didn't want to speak up about why I am retiring Yarith, but since I've been spurred to comment on this thread I'll divulge that, for my own reasons, it has absolutely nothing to do with interactions with RP Gods or the restrictions/limitations/whatever on them.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
The envoy system has many issues. It's contentious and enervating. I don't think, in any way, I'm wrong in saying that people have more than burnt out merely in engaging with envoys.
The state of combat balance is whatever. Some of it works, some of it works really well, some of it is busted.
Everybody understands that it's a work in progress. Everyone understand that there's only so many coder fingers capable and willing of slinging and digging through code.
But the environment in this game, surrounding pvp, surrounding envoy reports is really heavy and toxic. I'm pretty certain I can inb4 that I'm going to have people tell me 'it's because of your approach' or 'you're abrasive' but I honestly think you'll find a great majority of people agree with me, even if they won't be confident enough to say something. Some of the people who have been envoys the longest have avoided envoying things simply because of the drama that surrounds it.
I don't think, with a game in the shape and status that Lusternia's combat environment is in, that's a luxury ya'll can afford. What's worse is I'm not sure how you're going to be able to fix it.
Perhaps, even worse than that, are the people who insist, much like on the stances of combat, that there's 'nothing wrong'. It's that attitude that generates the disenfranchisement that resonates with a lot of people I personally enjoyed engaging in PVP alongside.
Edit: Also. Let's not kid ourselves. Solution 4, especially without consulting THE ACTUAL USERS OF THE SKILLSET FIRST, really, really sucks.
I'm going to ramble a bit more and say that, for a lot of cases, fixing things with envoys is counterproductive. You fill a single report with a lot, or you submit several reports to work in tandem. Often a single sol 4 in any of those regions, or a single reject, ruins everything. This is just the tip of the iceberg regarding envoys. I could ramble all day.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
I really, really did love most of my time in Lusternia though. For the longest time it filled a void in my life I couldn't find elsewhere. The most of you are wonderful. It merely turned into a pvp game for me as time went on, however, and that's when things took a turn for me. Lusternia will always be something special to me, even if I didn't like the last few bites as much.
Edit: It's the last one, I swear. I won't quadrapost.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
But yeah, i just don't see how Skanylla could continue from this moment onwards without violating the holy paladin code too much. She would likely go into deep depression if she lost her faith and then consider suicide. Let's not RP that please.
A community that does not require smashing other people is huge for me. If I was just to treat it as a PvP game... well, there are tons of other games out there that have a PvP focus (and even graphics too) and, as such, are going to fill that role much better because that is what they are built to do.
What I was saying is that there are a number of Volunteers that take roles and don't perform in those roles, which leaves people feeling disenfranchised. People are excited that this God just came out or the god they love returned only to have an Order as silent as a nunnery. I have not only witnessed it first hand, I have watched people leave Orders they love the concept of because the Volunteer that took over that role has not engaged it in any manner that would make people want to stick around. I have listened to people state they would leave an Order if it wasn't for the fact that they hold a high rank with many privs, as well.
I have had people ask, and heard people ask, "Who can I offer to for favours?" Now, being in an Order should not be about "favours" or "powers", but both of those make a huge difference in a lot of aspects of Lusternia. So you have people who won't join an Order because the Volunteer does not engage in it, or they will sit in an Order they love the concept of and offer to another Order because that Volunteer appears to be engaged.
I absolutely understand that wearing multiple hats; coder/builder/family life/rp takes it toll, I am not unfamiliar with these concepts. However, the Volunteers that engage their City and their Order are the exception not the rule.
I also 100% applaud those Volunteers that can manage all those aspects, and any Volunteers that do work hard behind the scenes. Lusternia would not be as fascinating if it was not for their hard work on the Admin level and that should never be dismissed out of hand.
So, again, if I offended or upset anyone that was absolutely not my intention. There are a lot of areas where people feel upset in Lusternia and I was just listing what I have seen or heard in various echo chambers.
You forgot to respond to the below part by Tenaka.
---------
You have a lot of Admins holding RP God Roles and not doing a damn thing with those roles. There are a few amazingly great gods, a couple that even post in the Absence thread apologising that they can't be around for a couple weeks, but then you have ones that are "around" and ignore their city, Order, patron requests. To players that enjoy Order RP this is a major setback, that also leads to the whole "join an Order in another Org cause at least that God shows up and RPs"----------
But as it seems you want a response, here you go.
I agree with him. Players enjoy interacting with RP Gods and a lack of interaction can be disappointing. It's undeniable and more players would enjoy more interactions with their Gods and their Orders. It certainly would lend more reason for people to stay and not want to leave.
I can't speak for anyone but myself when it comes to this part, but frankly, I don't derive a lot of enjoyment from RP. I don't feel I do the job justice. I see what the other admin do, and I feel overwhelmed, even knowing that I'm not expected to meet those standards. I typically walk away from any RP interaction or event upset and disappointed at myself because I know what I would enjoy as a player and I don't think I'm able to deliver that. It makes it difficult for me to approach interactions with players.
When I started my order, I laid some general guidelines and direction (mostly in an attempt to make sure that it wasn't all about drinking whiskey) and then tried to give them the tools to make it what they wanted. I tried to impress that I was going to be hands-off and once it got started, I didn't really interfere except to help with requests etc. I tried to add a voice to issues going on in Gaudiguch, but again, I didn't want to interfere too much and let the players really have a say in what's occurring in the city. It's a delicate line, and I'm not sure I dance around it well. I've seen players complain from both sides, that so and so is too involved and to hands-on, or that so and so doesn't do enough. It's a precarious position to be in and is just compounded by my own feelings.
We do have amazing RP Gods that do incredible things. They work extremely hard on giving those interactions the players in their organizations and orders. I completely understand that someone in Gaudiguch or my order would look over at those others and feel jealous. I'm jealous of them myself.
My enjoyment as an admin is on the coding side of things. I've done a lot of work there, some of it well received and others not so much, but that's where I find my enjoyment, so I tend to focus more on that than on the RP functions of my role.
I think the largest annoyance about divine that I currently feel is that as a Gaudi we were at some point involved with a Czixi-Mysrai-Tear of Zvolt story line, but the Gaudiguch involvement seemed more as plot device for Hallifax. I don't know if that is because we simply missed the clues, lacked participants or if it really wasn't intended for us or Mysrai got to busy to continue. I just find it unfortunate as it looked interesting and was a diversion of the Gaudi infighting.
I also think players being more and more in conflict OOCly is more an issue than any divine activity, it might have been somewhat averted in Gaudiguch by people moving but it is still present in a more game wide fashion. And not in the usual pvp game rivalry sense.
When you have a class that looks cool on the surface, potentially drop money to get to trans, it's not great to then get told you should probably switch because it's just not good.
From talking it seems like classes that were in this group years ago that are still there. Which is far longer than some people will play this game and seems like an indicator that the envoy system doesn't work in this case.
Like, there's only so much the envoys can do and that's before you consider interest in specific classes and terts. There seems like there really needs to be a point where the admin take over.
Players lived through a 2 year combat overhaul that was supposed to make future updates easier, rebalancing easier, etc.
Nothing improved. After all that work, is combat in Lusternia actually any better than it was back then? Most classes don't even have a SINGLE viable kill route 1v1, much less something interesting and entertaining, or heaven forbid, multiple options. Big props to Ianir and other admin for making SSC, it's a big step forward, but if fighting itself is no fun, it's moot.
I'm inactive because there are better games out there. It's nothing personal, but PvP in Lusternia is pay to win garbage, despite it having such a huge place in my heart.
Can it get better? Yes, definitely. I know all hands are on deck to make it so. Has it gotten better in the last 3 years? No, not really. Most of what has changed in the last 3 years is that there are now 5 wonderitems that you will have to drop 2000 dollars on to try to be top tier. One can only go on so long expecting improvement before realizing that they're at least slightly delusional.
So, that's why my interest has waned. Lusternia felt like a treadmill that was trying to vacuum up my money in moments of weakness. (Not accusing admin of anything, that's just my relationship with the game)
I really can't fault you for any of that, and I applaud you for working so hard for the game. I'm just disappointed that your work often takes precedence over responding to your order for weeks at a time. They know you're there, you're speaking pretty often on the envoy channel.
I know it can be hectic as a god to try and balance everything, but I also know that as a mortal player, nothing is more disappointing than a god showing up, or maybe being taken up by a second admin, and just having them disappear. Yes, it's a volunteer position. Yes, I should be happy with whatever they're able to give. No, that doesn't mean I'm not going to complain if they just poof. I know real life happens, and I know you can't always just stand around and be at our beck and call, but I think it's reasonable for us to expect you to actually interact with us once in a while.
As for the roleplay part, I get it. I really don't know what advice to give beyond urging you to jump out there and roleplay anyway. If you make a mistake, so what? Any good player will overlook your typos, and anyone who doesn't isn't worth you roleplaying with. There are some of us who log on just for the chance to roleplay with someone else, and divine should be a goldmine of roleplay. I have no clue what the last Kalikai left you in the way of notes, but why not work on fleshing yourself out to Gaudiguch and the rest of Lusternia?
We're players, we're customers. This is something we play to get away from work and life stress, it's really not our job to be coming up with fixes for everything that's broken in this game, and that flow is what causes the issues many classes are seeing.
Envoys can only fix so much, they only have so much interest. At the same time if players outside the envoy group want to make suggestions they need to try to force them through the envoys which is of varying difficulty depending on the envoys. Then you have classes where pretty much everyone has given up so you only have a couple of people who can't really come up with suggestions for a fix.
I've seen players regularly talking about ways to fix other stuff that's broken but little seems to come of this, I've seen the frustration of players that have put in the time and effort to come up with ideas only to see them dismissed. Which does lead to a lot of obvious frustrations, cause fixes aren't going through and they have to continue dealing with something they don't like.
And, when you take a step back from all of that, this is really shifting a lot of responsibility onto the players. For example, what's the solution for fixing a class when the remaining players have lost interest it and the disappointment of that class is driving players away?
2 - Wonder Crystals for sale in Artifact shop. This is because there are so many damn things and promos to buy more usually only coincide with a new wonderitem, compounding the problem. I am sure you will find you make small amounts of revenue from consistent crystal buying from the shop, over the occasional bursts of revenue you make when you release a new item. It's win-win.
3. More mortal Coders? I don't know how feasible this is.
4. I don't know what is going on with bardics/artisinals, but a number of people have voiced upset over this in the past. Maybe reviewing a new source of the same thing?
5. Everyone loves new shiny stuff, but is it better for the long term health of the game to release new shiny stuff or make sure the current stuff is not outdated and everyone is in a situation where they feel 'happy'. Skills, trades, races. I would take a serious review of this situation in another thread maybe.
Like what features and classes are being looked at, acknowledgements that stuff is on the list and involvement of the broader community could at least allay some of the feelings.
Something accessible in game would also be better because some avoid the forums. And maybe some review of “feedback” channels. (It’s really disturbing to me that there’s no outreach for going inactive and cancelling elite)
also like, it would be amazing to see a sit down where the outcome is a decent outline of how each valid combination of guild skills is meant to work.
This would help inform newbies about their decisions and it would provide a scope for each of those combos, if it can’t be done for a combo then that’s an issue and if a combo fulfills it’s scope then focus should go to the combos that don’t or don’t even have one.