Weirdly, there is already at least one person in the game who appears to have decided that raiding is glorified bashing, refuses to raid when anyone is around (and self-admittedly says he leaves the moment anyone shows up), and thinks that he shouldn't have any consequences or reactions to his raiding just because he's bashing for self-profit or whatever the excuse is.
He even throws his own org under the bus by saying that any reactions to him should be taken out on his org territory so that the rest of his org has to deal with the results of his desire for bashing loyal mobs, and he himself should just be left alone. If he has left the area and moved on to another activity he is now unassailable (by his own thinking process, at least).
I really don't even know what to make of that mindset. It is basically the contrary of what all the people who burn out on defending are saying / have said over the years: "Deal with the individual!"
I do agree that some tweaks are in order, per @Wobou's post. Make changes to encourage PvP, not just mindless grinding.
Speaking for myself as someone who does raid and jump into raids that get started by other people, hitting the mobs is a fairly standard test to gauge interest (entirely from a mechanics point of view). IC, obviously it has the standard meaning: we hate these mobs and they must die, blah blah blah.
The problem, and every Org is either currently guilty of it or has been guilty of it or will be guilty of it in the future, is that there are people who don't just 'gauge interest', I mean if you have killed aspects/lords and nobody showed up to stop you or challenge you, and you move on to killing all the daughters/ladies/demons/angels you are not 'gauging interest' you have no desire for an human opponent. You know there is no interest after the first couple minutes. All you are doing is being a douchebag, every hour on the hour.
It's not a matter of blaming or not blaming, and the fact that "every org is guilty of it at some point" means something. Once it's clear that players are doing this thing, it is much more useful to figure out the underlying reasons why: it's a manifestation of players responding to the structure of the game, so it'll keep happening forever until the incentives change.
So what is the current raiding setup?
Pro-raiding factors (what you get for raiding) ------------------- +Use your full skillsets (PvP) +Disrupt the time of enemies +Kill enemies (Inflict xp loss) +Reduce enemy power +Generate Gold +Potentially reduce enemy skillsets/Generate power for your org through smobs
Of these, the last three are... minimal. They are either not compelling reasons to raid over bashing, which generates more gold and functionally inhibits enemies from generating power more effectively (bogart essence). There haven't been smob sized raids for a long time (more on this later), and the power loss from killing demons etc. is exceedingly minor. So, You get to use your skillsets in pvp, use up your enemy's time, and potentially kill some of them.
Anti-raiding (What you risk/use) ----------- -Dying, exponentially rising -Using up power -Using up gold
The last of these two are likewise negligible. So, what you have is:
Pro-con ------- +PvP +Disruption +Inflict Xp loss -Suffer Xp loss
I'm going to further distill this down: Functionally, xp is "stored time". You gain xp by expending resources, chiefly time used grinding. With automation you can make this somewhat less painful, but ultimately time spent grinding is time expended doing nothing but causing your xp to go up, you convert minutes to essence. So, on the pro side your material "Benefit" for raiding is 100% causing your enemies to expend time, the time spent to fight you and the potential loss of xp-time.
So, practically the only real risk/reward consideration in raiding is "How much time am I willing to spend versus how much time can I force enemies to spend." As dissatisfaction with the PvP scene and pvp complexity goes down, the urge to engage in "Extracurricular" unscheduled PvP goes down. When you're raiding, on some level it is because you are willing to spend more time than the enemy is, because otherwise they would be raiding you.
If you agree that the grinding time represented by xp is ultimately very boring time, the chief calculation involved is how much boredom everyone is willing to put themselves on the line for. Because there aren't any other benefits or calculations involved, players who would otherwise be interested in PvP and spontaneous fights for the joy of the combat system or what-have-you quickly sour on the idea. The only thing you get out of it is inflicting boredom on other people, something you personally gain nothing from unless you enjoy the [mild] suffering of others.
The ostensible balancing factor for this is the expanding death costs for dying in enemy territory. This totally fails to address the issue, because it doesn't touch that the underlying boredom economy. What it does do is further discourage the so-called "noble raiders" from participating, as there is still no benefit but they risk ever higher levels of boredom to maintain net essence. It also encourages hit-and-run raids.
Is it any wonder that players intent on trolling seem to perform the majority of raids, or that hit-and-running raids continue cropping up? Why perform a full raid and risk your own boretime when you can come up and at least disrupt your enemies, who stop what they're doing to investigate? That's a raid you won. You lost no time, the enemy lost time. Victory!
Of course, just adding in Pro-raiding incentives without further changes won't make the issue any different because you're still dealing with a boredom economy, but now everyone has an incentive to trade their time in and the losses to the raid-ee tend to be excessive. In all my experience playing, we've rubberbanded back and forth between these two poles with bandaid after bandaid slapped on without actually touching the problem - though the problem and solutions to it have been brought up time and time again!
This is the issue I have with the broken systems in the game, which also include trades, the economy writ large, raiding/combat, and the family system. There just doesn't seem to be a coherent vision that takes into account what kind of play mechanics (or lack there of) encourages or discourages. It feels like there's a reluctance to, I don't know.. "over gamify?" some fields and the game suffers for it. Some elements of the game feel phoned in because the underlying mechanics [xp, in this case] are classics and are taken at face value without considering why they exist and how they practically operate.
In the case of raiding, make the benefits and penalties concrete. Instead of stacking xp loss and hoping that will discourage undue camping of planes, prevent people from camping planes period. That way, you're not relying on them getting bored and leaving, you make it so that after a certain point they must leave or are ejected. Instead of relying on schadenfreude, give raiders positive benefits and goals for raiding, curbed by limitations on the ability to spam them or to benefit when there is no opposition. Give raid defenders a proactive way to beat enemies besides inflicting boredom on them (which is best accomplished by ignoring them). Make it an actual element of the game or get rid of it once and for all by making commune spaces as tough to raid as elemental/cosmic.
You do have to include gold in there, actually. The most prolific raider in the game right now is a guy who just raids when nobody is around for the gold, and (claims, at least) that he'd stop if there was no gold. You can debate how serious he is with that, though, but if you take him at his word it's his only reason for it.
But aside from that, I definitely do agree with adjusting how raids work, but I do still strongly feel that there needs to be a non-raiding alternative entirely that people can pursue. I think this is something that Domoths were intended to fill by providing more PvP opportunities with gain, but Domoths suffer from the fact that the person holding it chooses when to upgrade (and thus chooses the time most likely to end in victory).
One option might also be to just remove the ability for players to choose the upgrade timer at all for Domoths. Something like this: 1) Remove absolves and upgrades entirely. 2) Randomize how long Domoth timers are slightly (add a +/- 5 hours to how long they are secured for an organization). 3) (Optional) Increase how long the held time is for a Demigod by a little bit-- maybe up to 100 hours base. 4) When the Domoth runs out of time, instead of falling a level, it goes straight into Upgrade / Maintain mode (the current Stage 2). People must find & claim it. The organization that held it is given the bubble it's in, others must go find it via various options that exist (tracking, wonderbrazier, or just good old-fashioned running around). If it is not claimed, then it simply drops a level and remains with the organization that previously held it. If it is claimed, then it switches to the new organization, and increases a level (if already at Crown, it stays there). 5) Adjust the opposing Domoth logic slightly; you still cannot claim an opposing domoth to one your organization holds, but you can compete in the fight for it (because you're no longer choosing what time the upgrades happen, you no longer have the ability to force all Domoths to be held by a single alliance given timing and fluctuations). 6) (Optional) When a Domoth goes into Upgrade/Maintain mode, add +5 hours to the timing of all other Domoths so that there won't be any back-to-backs. This means that things will end up being staggered a bit more and hopefully help reduce burnout. But nobody is required to go fight for these things, so the entire mechanic ends up being opt-in.
Any of the numbers or components can be debated, of course, but the key issue in the current setup is simply that players opt for the easiest way to secure a win, and thus Domoths end up being far less competitive than they were intended to be much of the time.
Remove exp loss for death for defenders defending their own org lands. Doesn't work for allies only org members. Eg A Gaudi helping defend etherglom dies and they lose exp but a glom defending etherglom dies and loses no exp.
Remove all gold and exp from org/divine loyal mobs.
More stuff outside of raiding for conflict. Readjustment of domoths sounds good.
Remove exp loss for death for defenders defending their own org lands. Doesn't work for allies only org members. Eg A Gaudi helping defend etherglom dies and they lose exp but a glom defending etherglom dies and loses no exp.
Remove all gold and exp from org/divine loyal mobs.
More stuff outside of raiding for conflict. Readjustment of domoths sounds good.
Bolded exists in Achaea along with an actual city raid system with seige weapons (which are used to destroy city structures and cause rooms to be filled with rubble. Cities can repair this damage with a gold and time investment). I do not think siege weapons would be the answer here, but some kind of Raiding system should be implemented to make raids on both sides feel more meaningful than lol pk. I also believe once a raid is determined to be a sanctioned raid (I forget the qualifiers) even the raiders themselves lose no exp.
Italicized would definitely discourage people who only "Raid" when they know there are absolutly no people on to defend and are just doing it to be dicks So I approve of this idea as well.
Honestly some kind of change to how raids work in Lusternia alone would have been enough to make me reconsider my retiring because then there would be something I could do to make up for my inability to give good rp to others.
I have no understanding of how Domoths work so cant speak on this last suggestion.
Remove exp loss for death for defenders defending their own org lands. Doesn't work for allies only org members. Eg A Gaudi helping defend etherglom dies and they lose exp but a glom defending etherglom dies and loses no exp.
Remove all gold and exp from org/divine loyal mobs.
More stuff outside of raiding for conflict. Readjustment of domoths sounds good.
I second this. I forgot or never realized that org/divine mobs give gold, and that in particular seems like a terrible thing. The benefit of killing them is (supposedly) to generate conflict of some roleplayed nature, I don't know why there would need to be a reward beyond that. And, really, it's pretty easy to get gold by normal means.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
Really really easy (and pointless for many), as the economy is borked.
This is one reason it is hard to give a proposal on "one" area of the game. They're all connected, which is great in a lot of ways, but makes it harder to address piecemeal.
The solution to the economy is similar, in that you have to look at why nothing has worked. The major changes to the economy have been to tinker with how much gold is coming into the game, remove aethermines and... well actually that's really it? There have been some changes to peripheral portions of the economy, like how esteem is transferred and sold, but these have all been incidental to other changes or problems, never a real look at how the economy works.
Let me go through each of these changes and what went on:
There is just about as much gold as ever entering the game. The change for "gold recharge" changed the way that gold is farmed so that you can't just bogart all the areas and have a monopoly, but bashing has only become faster and faster (and faster) with wondergems, bashing whips, and urtraps.
There aren't really... any gold sinks on a personal level and only very slight ones on an organizational level. Things you can spend on individually to remove gold from the game on include aethermanses and... aethermanses, that's it. Oh, stamps. Manses and stamps. Other sinks include: Shop protection costs, guild/org upgrades, pricey travel curios, shelving a library book, getting new locks for things, and buying comms from a village shop (more on this in a second). I'd be willing to bet that these combined total less than a million gold per IG year, that is: about two weeks - if not much much less. I'll do some estimate math later. The fact is there's just a bunch of gold entering the game and then never really draining back out, except into orgs - I'll get into that later.
The comm thing. There have been several changes to commodities, notably long ago when commodity costs doubled across the game and when comm mines came out (and subsequently went away). When things cost more commodities they roughly cost more gold, and the fewer commodities are available the more gold each commodity costs. Comm costs were doubled to try and chip away at the huge stockpiles of comms orgs hold. There just isn't any reason to purchase commodities from traders (sinking it out of the game). It's easier, more convenient, and usually cheaper to purchase your commodities from your org or from an allied org. Beyond that, all the goods that were made more expensive are long use and cosmetic items, particularly poor artisanry. So even if you DID need to buy comms from traders you would do so infrequently as to not make a difference. If all of the orgs ran out of comms, people would just stop buying chairs and would emote them into their scenes, or write them into their aethermanses (I really dislike manses). The commodity mines doubled this problem: not only are there more than enough commodities to purchase at your local org shop, now vast extra-governmental stockpiles exist, which also sink nothing out of the game. It was good to remove them and set everything back to all that gold falling to orgs.
That's why those patches didn't really address anything. The essential problem is only partially that gold inflow > outflow. The real issue is that there's very little turbulence in the gold flow: there just isn't much reason for players to want to try and get gold from other players, instead of bashing it out for themselves. The only instance in which this happens on a large scale is with esteem, which frankly only appeals to a subset of players who make big offerings to orders.
Org gold. Basically gold in org coffers is sunk out of the game. This is good, it's the functional "sink" that keeps things from COMPLETELY exploding. The issue is that as the only gold sink in the game, orgs have no incentive to do anything with their gold, or to encourage gold to flow into their coffers: orgs have more gold than they'll ever need and getting more is just a matter of waiting, as the gold has no where else to go. It will eventually settle into some org coffer or be deleted as people stop playing. Orgs could easily be the engine that moves the economy of the game.
Some of that needs to come from there being more gold sinks, like it or lump it. Many of these should be on the organizational level, but some should probably be personal too. Give every class some resource like woodchem reagents that they want to sink gold into (or buy comms to tribute that gold to the org). For orgs, buff the HELL out of guards, make avechna not protect org territory (buy guards!), and give guards comm and gold upkeep. Then, give orgs positive things they can automatically, progressively, and consistently spend gold on. Give them a carrot, a reason they will want to vacuum up gold but keep a stick so that they can't sabotage the effort by going "actually we don't care and just won't". I'm sure orgs can and will be creative in how they reward their players for civic engagement!
Rework trades. Again, trades just aren't in any way a viable method of generating gold, which itself has little value because they're so little to actually spend it on in any quantities. You've got low demand for goods and high currency, stagnation and inflation. Stagflation. Trades like Tailoring are in a weird place in that like.. you can't take two steps without tripping over a tailor, so there's no real way to compete (for gold that you can't spend) but also most people's pattern access is almost exactly the same because of how stifling the cartel system is.
I don't really have any great fixes for this. I think that a system closer to talents from Achaea/Aetolia for the purely creative trades (Cooking, tailoring etc.) is much better, where you have to opt in and pay an upfront cost.... but then can craft everything and can submit designs. I've got ideas and junk for that, but A) I know that it's just a no go to change anything regarding the skill system period no matter what and I'd need to plot it out more. I really don't have a good grip on incremental solutions here, I frankly thing that a large part of the trade system needs to be ripped out and redesigned from the ground up. At any rate, with reasons to want to get gold from other players to buy into various commune schemes, trades might see some kind of resurgence.
And IMO I think that these longstanding issues eclipse - and always have eclipsed - the Affliction Overhaul material. The other portions of the overhaul have been an unshadowed success and benefit to the game... save that static speed bonuses should have died with the stats overhaul.
I know for myself and many others, who enjoy PvP, but don't enjoy going in knowing you need 2-3 times the numbers of people, to consider having a chance to get a win is discouraging and the phrase "get good scrub" does not apply, People like @Minkahmet, @Ejderha, @Nicholo, @Aeldra, @Kendra, @Yarith, @Sondayga and many others spend hours on end working at testing and mapping affliction paths etc... What I suspect most others do. There is a balance issue at the moment pure and simple. Warrior and mage are both a joke, SSC gutted illusions to the point that a whole skillset is worthless, many class skills are given out as artifacts or enchantments while others are considered off limits. If you are going to give out one class' skills as artifacts or enchantments then you need to do the same for others on an equal basis.
I also hate, hate, hate the 10-12 people run into a room and all attack a single target, and unless you have a wonder item or few other means of escape within about 20 secs you're dead. There should be some level of malus for more than 4 people attacking a target. This would at least extend survivability, especially for people who aren't artied out the wazoo, in fights so they aren't over in 20 secs and you spend 3-4 mins waiting to phoenix, deffing back up, to rush back in and die again in 20-30 secs . It also means you have to coordinate who is going to attack who lending to a more thoughtful process.
The root of the RP vs PVP will never be fixed because it exists out of two entirely different type of players with some people floating between the two. Every other game I have played, those with great combat balance included, that combined the two (and even supplied specific RP, PVP and RPPVP servers) had these arguments of pro vs against raiding.
Now all these suggestions of more revolt like events or change domoths to be more random or whatever are all great for competition but fail to address the primary reason raids happen. Namely someone is bored, and they are bored right now not when the random event hits and they might not have time to play. If I were to only play 2 hours a week, I would want to do what I enjoy during those 2 hours and not be told oh sorry you are only to pvp tomorrow when you can't be around.
That is the big issue, you have PVP players sitting around and you all want them to wait until some random event (which are actually quite rare I mean one village and flare per week, wildnodes every 2 weeks). Domoths while more regular suffers also from this, though it also suffers from the other side is on another time zone and the entire opposite holder can't enter the realm thing. So some players don't feel like waiting for a random event and try to provoke the other side.
There are actual conflict zones in Lusternia like the inner sea/sea of despair, that rarely see conflict anymore because players complained. Some quests are intentionally made to cause conflict yet people get upset when you do or hinder them. Even in the timed pvp events concessions were made with the peaced revolt option.
People need to realize that en order to keep a PVP player base there need to be certain areas an RPer that does not want to PVP can not come to play. They must realize that entities calling out over aethers is a vital method of PVPers to know there is PVP to be had, and know that they can config loyalsays off. That there is going to have to be a reward system for the PVPers meaning that there is a feeling of loss when you lose a village, domoth, large amount of power because those were PVP rewards.
That doesn't mean pvp isn't unbalanced or anything, I am not good enough at Lusternia PVP to judge that.
That is the big issue, you have PVP players sitting around and you all want them to wait until some random event (which are actually quite rare I mean one village and flare per week, wildnodes every 2 weeks). Domoths while more regular suffers also from this, though it also suffers from the other side is on another time zone and the entire opposite holder can't enter the realm thing. So some players don't feel like waiting for a random event and try to provoke the other side.
That is the crux of it but the reason for the boredom is because you dont see a conflict event for weeks at a time.
Right now I log in and go ok so revolts/flares/etc happened already, ok I
wont see any conflict events for the next 7 real life days at a min. Ok
what else can I do to have fun? Raid a bit.
If I logged in and I knew that within the next 0-4 hours there is probally going to be a revolt/flare/domoth I'd be much less inclined to raid because I know there will be something to do soon.
Now all these suggestions of more revolt like events or change domoths to be more random or whatever are all great for competition but fail to address the primary reason raids happen. Namely someone is bored, and they are bored right now not when the random event hits and they might not have time to play. If I were to only play 2 hours a week, I would want to do what I enjoy during those 2 hours and not be told oh sorry you are only to pvp tomorrow when you can't be around.
That is the big issue, you have PVP players sitting around and you all want them to wait until some random event (which are actually quite rare I mean one village and flare per week, wildnodes every 2 weeks). Domoths while more regular suffers also from this, though it also suffers from the other side is on another time zone and the entire opposite holder can't enter the realm thing. So some players don't feel like waiting for a random event and try to provoke the other side.
There are actual conflict zones in Lusternia like the inner sea/sea of despair, that rarely see conflict anymore because players complained. Some quests are intentionally made to cause conflict yet people get upset when you do or hinder them. Even in the timed pvp events concessions were made with the peaced revolt option.
The entirety of the planes are technically conflict-zones, even if most people don't seem to use them that way anymore.
If one was only to play 2 hours a week, they'd find it hard to get much conflict no matter how much was actually happening in the other 166 hours. And if that one person was raiding during that one two hour period, raiding would be entirely tolerable for defending, even if they only raided when no one was around. But that's silly, no one would do that.
If the random events were less random, the same problem would exist that does now for Domoths: People only choosing to upgrade(or log on to revolts/nodes/flares) when they will be successful at it. You wouldn't get any more conflict out of it. If someone is bored, and the only way they have of not being bored is through PK, then there isn't a mechanical solution for that. You can't force people to participate in pk at your convenience.
The trouble with making losses in PVP more significant is that it primarily benefits the people who are already good at it. For everyone else, knowing that you could participate in something, but you'll probably just lose and suffer huge mechanical losses, too- it's demotivating. People want to win, and those who are winning want to keep winning. The losers have more incentive to stop playing than to get better at it. Part of generating worthwhile conflict is making it so that both sides have a reasonable chance of winning, or at least that trying isn't a waste of time.
The root of the RP vs PVP will never be fixed because it exists out of two entirely different type of players with some people floating between the two.
Not true. The biggest hurdle there is at the moment for me to participate in PK is not having enough hours in the day right now to devote to both roleplaying with people I haven't spoken to in real-life years, and learning the skills I have now. In terms of why I like combat, I doubt I'm significantly different from *most* pkers, but it's not the only aspect of the game I like. It also tends to be time-consuming in a way that bashing and roleplay isn't.
And plenty of "true pkers" have also been great at RP. @Celina, for one, and whatever her name is now, I forgot(sorry). There are not that many people who do nothing but RP or nothing but PK. The majority are somewhere in-between.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
The entirety of the planes are technically conflict-zones, even if most people don't seem to use them that way anymore.
Then why are people complaining about PVP happening on said planes. And not just at this moment either, complaints about raids on cosmic and a lesser extent elemental are as old as Lusternia itself. So while yes it was intended to be that way it is obvious the players do not really agree. And considering elemental is a lowbie bashing zone I am not entirely sure I would consider it open pvp anyway.
If one was only to play 2 hours a week, they'd find it hard to get much conflict no matter how much was actually happening in the other 166 hours. And if that one person was raiding during that one two hour period, raiding would be entirely tolerable for defending, even if they only raided when no one was around. But that's silly, no one would do that.
People have and will in the future . I used 2 hours a week as an extreme obviously, but the problem remains even with 2 or even 4 hours a day. And 4 hours a day is actually a lot of gaming time for a lot of people. Even in 4 hours a day (especially my hours) I can experience 0 PVP competition events for weeks. In fact since I personally don't raid (yet) I have experienced this quit often even at 8 hours gameplay in a day.
If the random events were less random, the same problem would exist that does now for Domoths: People only choosing to upgrade(or log on to revolts/nodes/flares) when they will be successful at it. You wouldn't get any more conflict out of it. If someone is bored, and the only way they have of not being bored is through PK, then there isn't a mechanical solution for that.
I was not asking for a mechanical solution. I in fact do not advocate adding more domoth type events. If they want to add more pvp events they should add small every hour events. (I would say with commodity reward but that would just destroy economy even further). However I promise you there will be complaints about such events because people will once again feel forced to participate, even though nobody is forcing them but themselves.
You can't force people to participate in pk at your convenience.
The trouble with making losses in PVP more significant is that it primarily benefits the people who are already good at it. For everyone else, knowing that you could participate in something, but you'll probably just lose and suffer huge mechanical losses, too- it's demotivating. People want to win, and those who are winning want to keep winning. The losers have more incentive to stop playing than to get better at it. Part of generating worthwhile conflict is making it so that both sides have a reasonable chance of winning, or at least that trying isn't a waste of time.
Nobody is asking to force anyone. It are people that do not like (the amount of) conflict, and mainly do not like having their org NPCs calling out on city aether that are asking other players to stop their part of the game. Even though you yourself said the non prime planes are intended for conflict.
Not true. The biggest hurdle there is at the moment for me to participate in PK is not having enough hours in the day right now to devote to both roleplaying with people I haven't spoken to in real-life years, and learning the skills I have now. In terms of why I like combat, I doubt I'm significantly different from *most* pkers, but it's not the only aspect of the game I like. It also tends to be time-consuming in a way that bashing and roleplay isn't.
And plenty of "true pkers" have also been great at RP. @Celina, for one, and whatever her name is now, I forgot(sorry). There are not that many people who do nothing but RP or nothing but PK. The majority are somewhere in-between.
I was talking about mmorpgs in general, but yes Lusternia has a higher degree of in betweeners in a large part because it is marketed for RP. It is not because you want to RP over PVP others want to do this. Some people want to log in to PVP and will RP a bit in between, I know a few who do not want to get involved in either. The clue is to leave the option open for all to let do what they enjoy to do. And not significantly restrict one group for a small annoyance in another.
Mayhaps more Arena tournaments are called for? Something said Organisations can run themselves with a some kind of special reward that acts as a gold sink and is only obtainable via the Organisation spending some of its gold to create. The Org can then decide to open such events to Anyone, Org only, city/commune only and or to non-enemies. Hell even random Divine generated Tournaments could work with a Gold entry fee with no gold payout but again trinkets for placing.
This would be a nip (not a big one mind you) into a boredom issues for older pvpers while providing a means for newer layers to get their toes wet in the pvp scene as there is no exp loss in arenas. It would also generate another gold sink which is a start to fixing the economy.
I Would love to see Cartels remain but for people who design an item to have the option to keep it themselves (ala Achaean style) or to submit it as a design for their Cartel or as a fully public Design. This would create a bit of a better competitive field in this respect.
Heraldry would be a nice addition to Lusternia, Want family Arms? Well better be ready to pay out the ear for a one time gold Sink. Want personal Arms or Organizational arms? Same thing then you add in a cost for them to be emblazoned on items. Oh look Customization + another Gold Sink! (shh I just want to have a reason to come back and I friggin love Heraldry IRL ok.. do not JUDGE ME)
I would have actually gotten to learn melder combat verses just doing stuff and praying it worked never knowing If I did anything useful in group combat too
Until the underlying issues with skillsets are solved, the only thing that more PK opportunities will create is more time for the dominant organisations to flex their muscles and have little to no competition. I know no one wants to talk about it because there's bias involved, but compare Magnagoran and Hallifaxian skillsets to Glomdoring's (and even Celest's) and there's just this horrible discrepancy. Before adding in new PvP routes, these things need to be addressed. Or, at the very least, concurrently.
EDIT: And I know someone's going to come after me about me mentioning Glomdoring's skillsets only needing a few tweaks earlier. The major part of the imbalance is that Magnagoran and Hallifaxian skillsets need huge tune-ups, and envoys have to collectively agree that these changes need to happen. That isn't always easy.
I voted maybe because....who'd honestly miss Shango, mm? But also stubborn and loyal to a fault, even when getting shit on, insulted or whatever. Dealt with worse than most of you could ever dish out not that it matters.
Also why I did the added work of various scrolls I've made since the fall of the old Guilds, 'just in case'. I look after those around me best as I am able =/
The pvp skills being a bit skewered hasn't helped. The lore is fan-f***ing-tastic and honestly the best part of Lusty besides demigod aspects to it. It's the people that make or break the game, as well as the RP involving (or not) the Divine. Harder, much harder, to balance the lattermost as gods=admin and a certain professional distance is needed and who likes micromanagement on either side of it? But other things can build on such to maintain balance in some fashion. With balance, success. Some places are toxic af with the community of players, some less so. But with time, those matters can be fixed too. Shango may not be overly impactful a being, but he at least has a use. People lacking that, whether truly or just made to FEEL like they do which is even worse, that is what drives them away. Meaningful RP can fix that, but...such things need involvement and initiative on both sides of the equation.
Get a lot of people whining there's 'just no RP' when they sit around in a manse all the time, and nothing else. You really cannot get such if you don't get out there and do other things. Hunt, influence, murder people, quest, or at least learn how to NOT die when others try to murder you (several people swearing they 'just don't have time' to learn even how to use a web enchantment...frustrating)...people would honestly be a lot less inclined to quit, generally. Also don't be meta-gaming d**ks to one another, mm? Thankfully not as much a problem last few years that I've seen, so we as a community have been making great strides there.
Also the earlier statement that there's this big divide between RP and PVP....the hell's wrong with people. There's absolutely zero reason you cannot have both...and in fact NEED both. I've done the pure combat role elsewhere, it's not fun after a while. Started to feel like the sole reason my character existed anymore, was either a springboard for other people's RP (because somehow I was an 'expert' on all things magical), or mostly for the next incoming city raid. There at least, the fights happened almost daily, because the other PvPers had no life either, so I'd never have to wait very long, but it still took a serious toll after a while. You lose all sight of why you're even bothering beyond the next fight, or defending others or whatever reason you hone your combat skills for...and you got NOTHING ELSE in between. Which has been a similar complaint also voiced earlier about between Revolts, Domoths, etc.
Just stop. You have RP readily available all around you, if you're talking to anyone, even the nearby tree...that's RP. Work with it, roll with it. Still work on your combat skills because who likes being a victim (aside from those that do...), but just...talk to people. It's not that hard. Be yourself, or better yet...be your character. Immerse yourself, in more than just who you're gonna fight next. And that dull thud in the back of your head each time you log in and aren't engaged in an exciting battle, goes well the hell away.
Isn't something simply fixed by the admin, players have to get in on it too. Means being around. Even if, at first, you're just standing around staring off into space, as long as you're THERE (meaning no AFKing, even aside from rules about that on Prime) and making occasional observations or comments, things can, do and will bud out from that. And you can still go raid the nil out of Nil or wherever in between, with something to come home to as well.
I just want to specifically +1 Tambador's suggestion of a targetting malus. This had a huge positive impact on the zerg meta in MKO and is one of the many things that made MKO combat far more enjoyable than any other IRE I've played in.
I just want to specifically +1 Tambador's suggestion of a targetting malus. This had a huge positive impact on the zerg meta in MKO and is one of the many things that made MKO combat far more enjoyable than any other IRE I've played in.
It strikes me that this would also make it easier to strike a balance between group class balance and 1v1 class balance (although I'm still admittedly so new to Lusternian PVP that I may lack perspective).
I also hate, hate, hate the 10-12 people run into a room and all attack a single target, and unless you have a wonder item or few other means of escape within about 20 secs you're dead. There should be some level of malus for more than 4 people attacking a target. This would at least extend survivability, especially for people who aren't artied out the wazoo, in fights so they aren't over in 20 secs and you spend 3-4 mins waiting to phoenix, deffing back up, to rush back in and die again in 20-30 secs . It also means you have to coordinate who is going to attack who lending to a more thoughtful process.
Yeah, unfortunately its the age-old method that reminds me of room-wide choke or single-choke+p5 thing and the target is dead in literally ten seconds. Yet, lo and behold if a method is used to force an antagoniser to run in order to prevent continued steamrolling, it becomes a problem. That in another issue too is a problem that not even server-side curing can stand against clearly. With about six plus people and afflictions/pressures stacking on same cure balances even with focus alternatives, you will crumple and that's a simple fact. Though yes, a problem that can use addressing at some point.
The only thing I'm considering since we've an influx of novices that appear to be sticking around-which I love, is to look over many scrolls and pass on knowledge that I know they will need so they are not completely left struggling in the dark with Lusternia. I've noticed the numerous questions asked about their surroundings and it got me to thinking that, there is truly a disconnect for what is to be a social game, and I think we got an excellent team to promote that atmosphere, and the little ones jumping in ministerial responsibilities with such vigor.
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He even throws his own org under the bus by saying that any reactions to him should be taken out on his org territory so that the rest of his org has to deal with the results of his desire for bashing loyal mobs, and he himself should just be left alone. If he has left the area and moved on to another activity he is now unassailable (by his own thinking process, at least).
I really don't even know what to make of that mindset. It is basically the contrary of what all the people who burn out on defending are saying / have said over the years: "Deal with the individual!"
I do agree that some tweaks are in order, per @Wobou's post. Make changes to encourage PvP, not just mindless grinding.
The problem, and every Org is either currently guilty of it or has been guilty of it or will be guilty of it in the future, is that there are people who don't just 'gauge interest', I mean if you have killed aspects/lords and nobody showed up to stop you or challenge you, and you move on to killing all the daughters/ladies/demons/angels you are not 'gauging interest' you have no desire for an human opponent. You know there is no interest after the first couple minutes. All you are doing is being a douchebag, every hour on the hour.
So what is the current raiding setup?
Pro-raiding factors (what you get for raiding)
-------------------
+Use your full skillsets (PvP)
+Disrupt the time of enemies
+Kill enemies (Inflict xp loss)
+Reduce enemy power
+Generate Gold
+Potentially reduce enemy skillsets/Generate power for your org through smobs
Of these, the last three are... minimal. They are either not compelling reasons to raid over bashing, which generates more gold and functionally inhibits enemies from generating power more effectively (bogart essence). There haven't been smob sized raids for a long time (more on this later), and the power loss from killing demons etc. is exceedingly minor. So, You get to use your skillsets in pvp, use up your enemy's time, and potentially kill some of them.
Anti-raiding (What you risk/use)
-----------
-Dying, exponentially rising
-Using up power
-Using up gold
The last of these two are likewise negligible. So, what you have is:
Pro-con
-------
+PvP
+Disruption
+Inflict Xp loss
-Suffer Xp loss
I'm going to further distill this down: Functionally, xp is "stored time". You gain xp by expending resources, chiefly time used grinding. With automation you can make this somewhat less painful, but ultimately time spent grinding is time expended doing nothing but causing your xp to go up, you convert minutes to essence. So, on the pro side your material "Benefit" for raiding is 100% causing your enemies to expend time, the time spent to fight you and the potential loss of xp-time.
So, practically the only real risk/reward consideration in raiding is "How much time am I willing to spend versus how much time can I force enemies to spend." As dissatisfaction with the PvP scene and pvp complexity goes down, the urge to engage in "Extracurricular" unscheduled PvP goes down. When you're raiding, on some level it is because you are willing to spend more time than the enemy is, because otherwise they would be raiding you.
If you agree that the grinding time represented by xp is ultimately very boring time, the chief calculation involved is how much boredom everyone is willing to put themselves on the line for. Because there aren't any other benefits or calculations involved, players who would otherwise be interested in PvP and spontaneous fights for the joy of the combat system or what-have-you quickly sour on the idea. The only thing you get out of it is inflicting boredom on other people, something you personally gain nothing from unless you enjoy the [mild] suffering of others.
The ostensible balancing factor for this is the expanding death costs for dying in enemy territory. This totally fails to address the issue, because it doesn't touch that the underlying boredom economy. What it does do is further discourage the so-called "noble raiders" from participating, as there is still no benefit but they risk ever higher levels of boredom to maintain net essence. It also encourages hit-and-run raids.
Is it any wonder that players intent on trolling seem to perform the majority of raids, or that hit-and-running raids continue cropping up? Why perform a full raid and risk your own boretime when you can come up and at least disrupt your enemies, who stop what they're doing to investigate? That's a raid you won. You lost no time, the enemy lost time. Victory!
Of course, just adding in Pro-raiding incentives without further changes won't make the issue any different because you're still dealing with a boredom economy, but now everyone has an incentive to trade their time in and the losses to the raid-ee tend to be excessive. In all my experience playing, we've rubberbanded back and forth between these two poles with bandaid after bandaid slapped on without actually touching the problem - though the problem and solutions to it have been brought up time and time again!
This is the issue I have with the broken systems in the game, which also include trades, the economy writ large, raiding/combat, and the family system. There just doesn't seem to be a coherent vision that takes into account what kind of play mechanics (or lack there of) encourages or discourages. It feels like there's a reluctance to, I don't know.. "over gamify?" some fields and the game suffers for it. Some elements of the game feel phoned in because the underlying mechanics [xp, in this case] are classics and are taken at face value without considering why they exist and how they practically operate.
In the case of raiding, make the benefits and penalties concrete. Instead of stacking xp loss and hoping that will discourage undue camping of planes, prevent people from camping planes period. That way, you're not relying on them getting bored and leaving, you make it so that after a certain point they must leave or are ejected. Instead of relying on schadenfreude, give raiders positive benefits and goals for raiding, curbed by limitations on the ability to spam them or to benefit when there is no opposition. Give raid defenders a proactive way to beat enemies besides inflicting boredom on them (which is best accomplished by ignoring them). Make it an actual element of the game or get rid of it once and for all by making commune spaces as tough to raid as elemental/cosmic.
But aside from that, I definitely do agree with adjusting how raids work, but I do still strongly feel that there needs to be a non-raiding alternative entirely that people can pursue. I think this is something that Domoths were intended to fill by providing more PvP opportunities with gain, but Domoths suffer from the fact that the person holding it chooses when to upgrade (and thus chooses the time most likely to end in victory).
One option might also be to just remove the ability for players to choose the upgrade timer at all for Domoths. Something like this:
1) Remove absolves and upgrades entirely.
2) Randomize how long Domoth timers are slightly (add a +/- 5 hours to how long they are secured for an organization).
3) (Optional) Increase how long the held time is for a Demigod by a little bit-- maybe up to 100 hours base.
4) When the Domoth runs out of time, instead of falling a level, it goes straight into Upgrade / Maintain mode (the current Stage 2). People must find & claim it. The organization that held it is given the bubble it's in, others must go find it via various options that exist (tracking, wonderbrazier, or just good old-fashioned running around). If it is not claimed, then it simply drops a level and remains with the organization that previously held it. If it is claimed, then it switches to the new organization, and increases a level (if already at Crown, it stays there).
5) Adjust the opposing Domoth logic slightly; you still cannot claim an opposing domoth to one your organization holds, but you can compete in the fight for it (because you're no longer choosing what time the upgrades happen, you no longer have the ability to force all Domoths to be held by a single alliance given timing and fluctuations).
6) (Optional) When a Domoth goes into Upgrade/Maintain mode, add +5 hours to the timing of all other Domoths so that there won't be any back-to-backs. This means that things will end up being staggered a bit more and hopefully help reduce burnout. But nobody is required to go fight for these things, so the entire mechanic ends up being opt-in.
Any of the numbers or components can be debated, of course, but the key issue in the current setup is simply that players opt for the easiest way to secure a win, and thus Domoths end up being far less competitive than they were intended to be much of the time.
Some ideas I like the sound of:
Remove exp loss for death for defenders defending their own org lands. Doesn't work for allies only org members. Eg A Gaudi helping defend etherglom dies and they lose exp but a glom defending etherglom dies and loses no exp.
Remove all gold and exp from org/divine loyal mobs.
More stuff outside of raiding for conflict. Readjustment of domoths sounds good.
Bolded exists in Achaea along with an actual city raid system with seige weapons (which are used to destroy city structures and cause rooms to be filled with rubble. Cities can repair this damage with a gold and time investment). I do not think siege weapons would be the answer here, but some kind of Raiding system should be implemented to make raids on both sides feel more meaningful than lol pk. I also believe once a raid is determined to be a sanctioned raid (I forget the qualifiers) even the raiders themselves lose no exp.
Italicized would definitely discourage people who only "Raid" when they know there are absolutly no people on to defend and are just doing it to be dicks So I approve of this idea as well.
Honestly some kind of change to how raids work in Lusternia alone would have been enough to make me reconsider my retiring because then there would be something I could do to make up for my inability to give good rp to others.
I have no understanding of how Domoths work so cant speak on this last suggestion.
Let me go through each of these changes and what went on:
There is just about as much gold as ever entering the game. The change for "gold recharge" changed the way that gold is farmed so that you can't just bogart all the areas and have a monopoly, but bashing has only become faster and faster (and faster) with wondergems, bashing whips, and urtraps.
There aren't really... any gold sinks on a personal level and only very slight ones on an organizational level. Things you can spend on individually to remove gold from the game on include aethermanses and... aethermanses, that's it. Oh, stamps. Manses and stamps. Other sinks include: Shop protection costs, guild/org upgrades, pricey travel curios, shelving a library book, getting new locks for things, and buying comms from a village shop (more on this in a second). I'd be willing to bet that these combined total less than a million gold per IG year, that is: about two weeks - if not much much less. I'll do some estimate math later. The fact is there's just a bunch of gold entering the game and then never really draining back out, except into orgs - I'll get into that later.
The comm thing. There have been several changes to commodities, notably long ago when commodity costs doubled across the game and when comm mines came out (and subsequently went away). When things cost more commodities they roughly cost more gold, and the fewer commodities are available the more gold each commodity costs. Comm costs were doubled to try and chip away at the huge stockpiles of comms orgs hold. There just isn't any reason to purchase commodities from traders (sinking it out of the game). It's easier, more convenient, and usually cheaper to purchase your commodities from your org or from an allied org. Beyond that, all the goods that were made more expensive are long use and cosmetic items, particularly poor artisanry. So even if you DID need to buy comms from traders you would do so infrequently as to not make a difference. If all of the orgs ran out of comms, people would just stop buying chairs and would emote them into their scenes, or write them into their aethermanses (I really dislike manses). The commodity mines doubled this problem: not only are there more than enough commodities to purchase at your local org shop, now vast extra-governmental stockpiles exist, which also sink nothing out of the game. It was good to remove them and set everything back to all that gold falling to orgs.
That's why those patches didn't really address anything. The essential problem is only partially that gold inflow > outflow. The real issue is that there's very little turbulence in the gold flow: there just isn't much reason for players to want to try and get gold from other players, instead of bashing it out for themselves. The only instance in which this happens on a large scale is with esteem, which frankly only appeals to a subset of players who make big offerings to orders.
Org gold. Basically gold in org coffers is sunk out of the game. This is good, it's the functional "sink" that keeps things from COMPLETELY exploding. The issue is that as the only gold sink in the game, orgs have no incentive to do anything with their gold, or to encourage gold to flow into their coffers: orgs have more gold than they'll ever need and getting more is just a matter of waiting, as the gold has no where else to go. It will eventually settle into some org coffer or be deleted as people stop playing. Orgs could easily be the engine that moves the economy of the game.
Some of that needs to come from there being more gold sinks, like it or lump it. Many of these should be on the organizational level, but some should probably be personal too. Give every class some resource like woodchem reagents that they want to sink gold into (or buy comms to tribute that gold to the org). For orgs, buff the HELL out of guards, make avechna not protect org territory (buy guards!), and give guards comm and gold upkeep. Then, give orgs positive things they can automatically, progressively, and consistently spend gold on. Give them a carrot, a reason they will want to vacuum up gold but keep a stick so that they can't sabotage the effort by going "actually we don't care and just won't". I'm sure orgs can and will be creative in how they reward their players for civic engagement!
Rework trades. Again, trades just aren't in any way a viable method of generating gold, which itself has little value because they're so little to actually spend it on in any quantities. You've got low demand for goods and high currency, stagnation and inflation. Stagflation. Trades like Tailoring are in a weird place in that like.. you can't take two steps without tripping over a tailor, so there's no real way to compete (for gold that you can't spend) but also most people's pattern access is almost exactly the same because of how stifling the cartel system is.
I don't really have any great fixes for this. I think that a system closer to talents from Achaea/Aetolia for the purely creative trades (Cooking, tailoring etc.) is much better, where you have to opt in and pay an upfront cost.... but then can craft everything and can submit designs. I've got ideas and junk for that, but A) I know that it's just a no go to change anything regarding the skill system period no matter what and
I also hate, hate, hate the 10-12 people run into a room and all attack a single target, and unless you have a wonder item or few other means of escape within about 20 secs you're dead. There should be some level of malus for more than 4 people attacking a target. This would at least extend survivability, especially for people who aren't artied out the wazoo, in fights so they aren't over in 20 secs and you spend 3-4 mins waiting to phoenix, deffing back up, to rush back in and die again in 20-30 secs . It also means you have to coordinate who is going to attack who lending to a more thoughtful process.
Now all these suggestions of more revolt like events or change domoths to be more random or whatever are all great for competition but fail to address the primary reason raids happen. Namely someone is bored, and they are bored right now not when the random event hits and they might not have time to play. If I were to only play 2 hours a week, I would want to do what I enjoy during those 2 hours and not be told oh sorry you are only to pvp tomorrow when you can't be around.
That is the big issue, you have PVP players sitting around and you all want them to wait until some random event (which are actually quite rare I mean one village and flare per week, wildnodes every 2 weeks). Domoths while more regular suffers also from this, though it also suffers from the other side is on another time zone and the entire opposite holder can't enter the realm thing. So some players don't feel like waiting for a random event and try to provoke the other side.
There are actual conflict zones in Lusternia like the inner sea/sea of despair, that rarely see conflict anymore because players complained. Some quests are intentionally made to cause conflict yet people get upset when you do or hinder them. Even in the timed pvp events concessions were made with the peaced revolt option.
People need to realize that en order to keep a PVP player base there need to be certain areas an RPer that does not want to PVP can not come to play. They must realize that entities calling out over aethers is a vital method of PVPers to know there is PVP to be had, and know that they can config loyalsays off. That there is going to have to be a reward system for the PVPers meaning that there is a feeling of loss when you lose a village, domoth, large amount of power because those were PVP rewards.
That doesn't mean pvp isn't unbalanced or anything, I am not good enough at Lusternia PVP to judge that.
That is the crux of it but the reason for the boredom is because you dont see a conflict event for weeks at a time.
Right now I log in and go ok so revolts/flares/etc happened already, ok I wont see any conflict events for the next 7 real life days at a min. Ok what else can I do to have fun? Raid a bit.
If I logged in and I knew that within the next 0-4 hours there is probally going to be a revolt/flare/domoth I'd be much less inclined to raid because I know there will be something to do soon.
If one was only to play 2 hours a week, they'd find it hard to get much conflict no matter how much was actually happening in the other 166 hours. And if that one person was raiding during that one two hour period, raiding would be entirely tolerable for defending, even if they only raided when no one was around. But that's silly, no one would do that.
If the random events were less random, the same problem would exist that does now for Domoths: People only choosing to upgrade(or log on to revolts/nodes/flares) when they will be successful at it. You wouldn't get any more conflict out of it. If someone is bored, and the only way they have of not being bored is through PK, then there isn't a mechanical solution for that. You can't force people to participate in pk at your convenience.
The trouble with making losses in PVP more significant is that it primarily benefits the people who are already good at it. For everyone else, knowing that you could participate in something, but you'll probably just lose and suffer huge mechanical losses, too- it's demotivating. People want to win, and those who are winning want to keep winning. The losers have more incentive to stop playing than to get better at it. Part of generating worthwhile conflict is making it so that both sides have a reasonable chance of winning, or at least that trying isn't a waste of time.
Not true. The biggest hurdle there is at the moment for me to participate in PK is not having enough hours in the day right now to devote to both roleplaying with people I haven't spoken to in real-life years, and learning the skills I have now. In terms of why I like combat, I doubt I'm significantly different from *most* pkers, but it's not the only aspect of the game I like. It also tends to be time-consuming in a way that bashing and roleplay isn't.
And plenty of "true pkers" have also been great at RP. @Celina, for one, and whatever her name is now, I forgot(sorry). There are not that many people who do nothing but RP or nothing but PK. The majority are somewhere in-between.
This would be a nip (not a big one mind you) into a boredom issues for older pvpers while providing a means for newer layers to get their toes wet in the pvp scene as there is no exp loss in arenas. It would also generate another gold sink which is a start to fixing the economy.
I Would love to see Cartels remain but for people who design an item to have the option to keep it themselves (ala Achaean style) or to submit it as a design for their Cartel or as a fully public Design. This would create a bit of a better competitive field in this respect.
Heraldry would be a nice addition to Lusternia, Want family Arms? Well better be ready to pay out the ear for a one time gold Sink. Want personal Arms or Organizational arms? Same thing then you add in a cost for them to be emblazoned on items. Oh look Customization + another Gold Sink! (shh I just want to have a reason to come back and I friggin love Heraldry IRL ok.. do not JUDGE ME)
EDIT: And I know someone's going to come after me about me mentioning Glomdoring's skillsets only needing a few tweaks earlier. The major part of the imbalance is that Magnagoran and Hallifaxian skillsets need huge tune-ups, and envoys have to collectively agree that these changes need to happen. That isn't always easy.
Also why I did the added work of various scrolls I've made since the fall of the old Guilds, 'just in case'. I look after those around me best as I am able =/
The pvp skills being a bit skewered hasn't helped. The lore is fan-f***ing-tastic and honestly the best part of Lusty besides demigod aspects to it. It's the people that make or break the game, as well as the RP involving (or not) the Divine. Harder, much harder, to balance the lattermost as gods=admin and a certain professional distance is needed and who likes micromanagement on either side of it? But other things can build on such to maintain balance in some fashion. With balance, success. Some places are toxic af with the community of players, some less so. But with time, those matters can be fixed too. Shango may not be overly impactful a being, but he at least has a use. People lacking that, whether truly or just made to FEEL like they do which is even worse, that is what drives them away. Meaningful RP can fix that, but...such things need involvement and initiative on both sides of the equation.
Get a lot of people whining there's 'just no RP' when they sit around in a manse all the time, and nothing else. You really cannot get such if you don't get out there and do other things. Hunt, influence, murder people, quest, or at least learn how to NOT die when others try to murder you (several people swearing they 'just don't have time' to learn even how to use a web enchantment...frustrating)...people would honestly be a lot less inclined to quit, generally. Also don't be meta-gaming d**ks to one another, mm? Thankfully not as much a problem last few years that I've seen, so we as a community have been making great strides there.
Just stop. You have RP readily available all around you, if you're talking to anyone, even the nearby tree...that's RP. Work with it, roll with it. Still work on your combat skills because who likes being a victim (aside from those that do...), but just...talk to people. It's not that hard. Be yourself, or better yet...be your character. Immerse yourself, in more than just who you're gonna fight next. And that dull thud in the back of your head each time you log in and aren't engaged in an exciting battle, goes well the hell away.
Isn't something simply fixed by the admin, players have to get in on it too. Means being around. Even if, at first, you're just standing around staring off into space, as long as you're THERE (meaning no AFKing, even aside from rules about that on Prime) and making occasional observations or comments, things can, do and will bud out from that. And you can still go raid the nil out of Nil or wherever in between, with something to come home to as well.
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