Leaving Lusternia

1246

Comments

  • If the desire is to get the playerbase to be detached enough for the issues to be overlooked then it would have died out completely already because there wouldn't have had been any second, third, or nth chances.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Wobou said:
    I'm just now coming back from an almost year long hiatus, so I'm not imagining that I'll be leaving again soon but you never know. My hiatus was caused by multiple factors, chief among them was a feeling that I wasn't doing well at combat compared to others and that to get on their level I would need 30+ wondergems which is above my paygrade. I also was getting a fair amount of heat for the monk rework which wore me down a bit. The first bit might be applicable to others, I'm doubting the second bit is.
    Xenthos said:

    You also can't just say that everyone who doesn't agree with you is an "administration yes-man".  In one of Lusternia's State-Of-Lusternia posts a number of years ago, she actually threatened that she had been considering shrubbing me (hard to get much more adversarial than that).  Both of us have worked together many times since that point, though.  I'm not shy on pointing out when I think she's done something wrong (usually via an email).  At the same time, though, I'm also going to say when I think they're doing things better than they were.


    I find it interesting that you felt the need to defend yourself from the accusation of being an administration yes-man even though Falaeron didn't mention you in his post.
    I'm not sure why you find that interesting.  He added the yes-man line into his post with the strong implication that if you disagree with him, you're just being a yes-man.  It's the exact same effect as what he is trying to decry; the outright dismissal of those with contrary views as being meaningless just because you don't like them.  I felt it important to point that out and then gave an example for me, personally, as to why that assertion is silly.
    image
  • I think that's a really useful question, although I don't agree with its premise. I can say with absolutely certainty that the only reason I'm still playing is because I'm playing just for fun. I log in, farm my urTraps, reach out for RP if I feel like it, rub goop out of my wondercorn, design a little, get my ass torn in PvP if the fancy takes me. And the very second I get bored, tired, or pissed off, I log out.

    It can be convincingly argued that that's not how you're supposed to play Lusty, but it's how I'm choosing to play it. If I was more deeply invested I'd be gone like roadrunner, but not because of the game, because of the players.
  • It can be convincingly argued that it's the player's fault, and not the game's, when your org has been the beneficiary of many of the game's questionable systems and mechanics for the past years.

  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    In order to do that, first you have to convincingly argue that one org has been the beneficiary of many of the game's questionable systems and mechanics for the past year-- and explain how other organizations did not have equal access.

    One thing that really bugged me this year, for example, was this whole year's end-of-the-world event.  My organization basically got screwed.  We paid a huge amount of commodities for an item that provided a small benefit.  We were then told a few months later that we had to destroy it.  And that... was the entirety of our whole organization's involvement except for one last "go get a parchment" direction.  Everything beyond that was me throwing myself into other people's events and trying to figure something out.  Magnagora had a huge amount of the involvement / interaction.  Is that Magnagora's players fault?  Should we thus blame them for our commodities basically getting flushed down the drain?  (Note that we still have no idea what that was about, it was never explained... just "Here you are... not!").

    By no means am I claiming that everything is perfect.  I would definitely like a resolution to that tapestry-thing, some day.  However, on a more long-term scale I have seen these things fluctuate greatly.  Glomdoring got a whole sub-arc during the Wheel of Goloths event that basically nobody else was able to participate in, and while it is not exactly the same thing (Ghani was the big baddy whereas Xynthin was more of a side effect, the Goloths Maxyenka were doing their thing regardless of him), there are some similarities in that it was a very involved and in-depth story arc with a lot of interaction and things going on.

    Note that the interaction thing ties back to some of the earlier points that other people (and myself) have said.  This is, I think, an issue of resources (primarily volunteer time and preference).  More is better, but in the end all I can do is point out what I don't like, what I do, and go from there.

    It has been many, many RL years since someone Divine Mandated a Nexus room while they conducted an hour-long solo RP session or changed the Ravenwood to be pink, so from my perspective I have seen a lot of improvement over time (as examples; I could also bring up things like golden feces).  What I truly do not want to see is going backwards, and I am very afraid that this conversation is pushing our volunteers in that direction.
    image
  • Versalean said:
    When you win you should get a little "yay" just like when you beat Sephiroth. But when you lose it shouldn't be as psychologically damaging as it sometimes is - I include myself in this as somebody who has felt pretty effing awful over stuff that's happened entirely within the four walls of a MUD and which really, when all said and done doesn't matter.
    I think that the ability for Lusternia to pull you in and make you care way too much is one of its greatest strengths and potentially also its greatest weakness for the reasons you mentioned. I agree that for the individual mental health of players and god volunteers that it would be best to treat it like any other game. However if that were was that kind of detachment I'm not sure if our volunteers would be working so hard and I'm positive that many players of this game would not have spent the kind of money they have on it.
    Xenthos said:
    I'm not sure why you find that interesting.  He added the yes-man line into his post with the strong implication that if you disagree with him, you're just being a yes-man.  It's the exact same effect as what he is trying to decry; the outright dismissal of those with contrary views as being meaningless just because you don't like them.  I felt it important to point that out and then gave an example for me, personally, as to why that assertion is silly.

    To my reading that was not a strong implication which is why I found your inference interesting.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    How much stronger can you get than "How dare I think that anything the admins do can ever be anything but perfect? It must be my fault for thinking that," followed by "Everyone is too scared of being attacked for holding a view that is contrary to what the administration team would like to hear."?

    Both are sweeping assertions.  Nobody has ever said that everything the admin team does is perfect.  Heck, even they themselves readily admit that.  And, if you do not agree with the second assertion, you are not part of everyone-- explicitly a nobody, a yes-man (by his own wording).

    Everyone is entitled to their own views and opinions.  There are people who like what they see, people who don't, and (likely the majority) somewhere in the middle of these two extremes.  It is certainly not fair to state that your own opinion is all that matters and that disagreeing means you're all-in on the "other side" (as if the administration is some side in a turf war).
    image
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    edited March 2018
    When was the last time Lusternia had a great hunt? Or auctions? What did we do for our anniversary? 


    When was the last time HELP GODS was updated?
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    edited March 2018
    Ciaran said:
    @Versalean - you're basically blaming the players for being too emotionally invested in the game.  I agree with this largely, but have you ever stopped to wonder if there's a reason why the only remaining players are the ones who are too emotionally invested?

    The ones that just played the game for fun left.
    Could argue that the people who played for fun left because those so emotionally invested could no longer differenciate between characterd and players killed the joy for them.

    We've had people look at the way the game has had an effect on others and quit out of sheer aversion to ending up like them.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • @Moi, I agree with you overall but I think there's another element to this specifically dealing with skill changes. Going through the proper channels for a skill change means doing a decent amount of envoying which is especially difficult if you're trying to envoy another organization's skills and they do not agree that the skill has an issue. It's several times easier to identify an issue with a skill and post it to the forums then come up with a solution that would be agreeable to everyone. I think that's why we see a fairly large number of complaints in various channels like the forums about the same skills over and over, and relatively few (if any) reports about them.

    One thing I've noticed over the years is that people who complain about a skill feel like the clock has started from the time of the first complaint even though the official system is based on reports. This leads to a feeling that "the admin have known about this skill for years" but with zero reports which seems like a lose-lose for the administration to me. If they change skills without reports that will be complained about as well, if they don't change it then they are ignoring the players as you pointed out.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    Ciaran said:
    @Versalean - you're basically blaming the players for being too emotionally invested in the game.  I agree with this largely, but have you ever stopped to wonder if there's a reason why the only remaining players are the ones who are too emotionally invested?

    The ones that just played the game for fun left.
    That's kind of what I was trying to imply. I also don't understand how I can be chided for being "exactly what Versalean was talking about", then have him turn around and say he misrepresented his own words. Talk about unfair much.

    I'm not going to be sorry for seeing real, human benefits in gaming (not just Lusternia), for the reasons I listed. And if Lusternia lost those benefits to me, I'd find another game.

    Also, the bulk of my post was about artifacts, which everyone seems to have overlooked, which is...you know...a huge part of the problem.

    image
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    edited March 2018
    Falaeron said:
    If the desire is to get the playerbase to be detached enough for the issues to be overlooked then it would have died out completely already because there wouldn't have had been any second, third, or nth chances.
    QFT

    (also, I wouldn't be spending any money)

    image
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    edited March 2018
    One thing that you are absolutely spot-on about is the raider vs. defender discrepancy, Aeldra.  The only thing "wrong" with it is the notion that it is a "cycle".  This has been an ongoing issue since I started playing.  The only thing that changes is who the people are who are doing the raiding, everything else is the same.  Sometimes (due to time zone differences) it is even people in one org attacking another, logging off for bed after a while, then the people in the other org get off work / log in / raid back. All the current conflict systems are either random/rare or are player-initiated (like Domoths) and thus usually scheduled to minimize opposition (because people want to win the reward), so the only on-demand conflict available is a raid.

    I have made a lot of posts on this subject throughout the years, though.  While a number of ideas have been presented to address it, nothing has really caught on to the point that it has made its way into implementation.
    image
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    Ciaran said:
    Versalean - you're basically blaming the players for being too emotionally invested in the game.  I agree with this largely...
    And just for good measure: you don't spend money on something you don't care about.

    image
  • edited March 2018
    Veyils said:

    Lack of conflict events is really the crux of a number of issues with the game. Nodes/Villages/Flares are so few and far between its not uncommon for a player to not see one of these events for literal real life months at a time. This forces raids and sparing to be the only real way people can get their conflict enjoyment.(Doesn't have to be pvp, aetherflares or hunting competitions etc etc, just something)

    More frequent opt in conflict events would solve a lot of the problems raised here

    If they wish to retain the few remaining people who actively participate and care about combat, sure this is a solution. However, IMO it would please the whales while probably driving off more of the players they "consume" in said frequent conflict events.

    On the other hand, I think it might be too late for the solutions I would propose in it's stead. Pleasing the whales might just be Lust's only chance of continuing on and that will only work for a time. The more I ruminate on it the more I think they have been in this mode for some time, based on the "Wonder items".
  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    I'm firmly against adding more "punishments" for people who choose to raid. I'd rather see more scenarios that facilitate PK than detract what seems to be an ever dwindling number.

    What should be encouraged is people raiding knowing they're going to be going against other combatants, hitting and swatting over a bunch of noncoms isn't impressive, and anyone who chestbeats should be mocked for doing so.

    I wish there were resources that could be fought over on a mutually pre-agreed time, or admin set in advance so people can plan for it. PK is part guesswork, part ducking actual fights and part luck to be on at the right time.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


    image
  • I don't disagree with a lot of the complaints or frustrations people are outlining here.

    However, if you feel sad or guilty because your loyals died or are in the process of shrieking horrifically about their impending demise... you're probably too emotionally invested. They're not real, and even better, they'll come back- so don't waste your precious free time being dragged into activities (defending, etc.) that you don't want to be involved in. You're gonna burnout, you're gonna have a bad time.

    Lusternia is a game. If you feel compelled to do something that you don't find enjoyable or is detrimental to your experience, you don't actually have to do it

    So don't.


    I think this mindset is something that definitely needs to change, and in this instance the onus is on the players and not on the admin/mechanics.


    I don't disagree with what you say about being emotionally invested - but then, a lot of us have been playing this game for 10+ years, it's a bit hard /not/ to be emotionally invested at this point, especially when we've spent $$$ on it, too.

    I know I don't have to do it, sometimes I don't because I honestly don't feel like sitting there staring at my screen and feeling the way I feel when I do go to defend and end up feeling worse than if I had just left it. There's nothing worse thinking that you're going to make a difference, walk into a room -- sometimes by accident, re:Air plane and it's funky throw you around randomly - and barely have someone targetted or a command entered and you notice you're dead already. That isn't fun. Which is why I suggested things like the extra consequences - I mean, it might not change anything, but that's why we idea things or suggest changes to try, right?

    I haven't even touched the argument of artifacts and skills - that's a whole different ball-game and another addition over raiding and combat that needs to be looked at, and one that has been iterated in the above thread, with mostly points of which I agree with.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    I don't disagree with a lot of the complaints or frustrations people are outlining here.

    However, if you feel sad or guilty because your loyals died or are in the process of shrieking horrifically about their impending demise... you're probably too emotionally invested. They're not real, and even better, they'll come back- so don't waste your precious free time being dragged into activities (defending, etc.) that you don't want to be involved in. You're gonna burnout, you're gonna have a bad time.

    Lusternia is a game. If you feel compelled to do something that you don't find enjoyable or is detrimental to your experience, you don't actually have to do it

    So don't.


    I think this mindset is something that definitely needs to change, and in this instance the onus is on the players and not on the admin/mechanics.


    This. So much, this.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • Vidette said:
    @Lothringen Probably one of the issues people have with just saying, "Oh such and such mobs will just respawn in an hour, no big deal" is that feels like very flimsy roleplay. Yeah, objectively I know it doesn't really matter, but wouldn't my character care? If I've roleplayed being an ardent defender of the elemental plane of soda, and an enemy shows up and starts killing the fizzypop lords, and my character doesn't go, because I'm really having a good time hunting the undead, headless chickens in the new haunted petting zoo area, it's gonna wreck my immersion, which in turn will make me care a whole lot less about bothering to do anything in the first place.
    Well if you don't enjoy combat, you could RP not being an ardent (physical) defender of the plane of soda. I mean I could be upset I can not be RPing being the best writer in the basin because I am a horrible author RL, or I could you know just accept such RP is not possible for me and use a more suitable RP for my playstyle.
  • edited March 2018
    Vidette said:
    @Lothringen Probably one of the issues people have with just saying, "Oh such and such mobs will just respawn in an hour, no big deal" is that feels like very flimsy roleplay. Yeah, objectively I know it doesn't really matter, but wouldn't my character care? If I've roleplayed being an ardent defender of the elemental plane of soda, and an enemy shows up and starts killing the fizzypop lords, and my character doesn't go, because I'm really having a good time hunting the undead, headless chickens in the new haunted petting zoo area, it's gonna wreck my immersion, which in turn will make me care a whole lot less about bothering to do anything in the first place.
    You can roleplay absolutely anything you want, and that's your choice (or burden, depending.) You're 100% responsible for the character you've created, so if you have zero interest (or don't enjoy) being a zealous defender of the flying spaghetti monster... don't be one. And don't expect the game to change to suit your choice.

    (Collective "yous", here, not you, you.)

    I'm generally opposed to changing mechanics for something that individuals have complete choice and control over, especially when said mechanics might detrimentally affect someone else's enjoyment of the game. Then we simply lose other players, for different reasons.
    image
  • edited March 2018
    Vidette said:
    @Lothringen Probably one of the issues people have with just saying, "Oh such and such mobs will just respawn in an hour, no big deal" is that feels like very flimsy roleplay. Yeah, objectively I know it doesn't really matter, but wouldn't my character care? If I've roleplayed being an ardent defender of the elemental plane of soda, and an enemy shows up and starts killing the fizzypop lords, and my character doesn't go, because I'm really having a good time hunting the undead, headless chickens in the new haunted petting zoo area, it's gonna wreck my immersion, which in turn will make me care a whole lot less about bothering to do anything in the first place.
    While I agree it is a challenge to RP, it's one of those things you have to give up for your own sanity. Yeah, I could go defend like I want to but all I'm going to do is:

    1 ) Probably end up defending alone.
    2 ) Die incredibly fast B)
    3 ) Be less happy than before.

    So you just have to ignore it if you want to be happy. Unfortunately, despite all the conflict in Lusternia, being a "warrior" for your nation is the hardest to RP because most of us just don't seem that good compared to the "whales". If you can't code, you're at a disadvantage. If you can't buy all the artefacts/wonderitems you're at a disadvantage. If you're playing an outdated class (or not playing the newest best class), disadvantage. If you don't have friends who also devote time and money to the game's combat, disadvantage.

    I could keep going on and on, but at the end of the day the time and cash investment required to be a "warrior" character that actually can stand a chance against characters I won't name, is enormous. On the other hand, said awesome players made that investment so why shouldn't you have to? Which is the rub, they shouldn't have had to invest that much either or even had the option to. Alas, money is the end goal and IRE is a business.
  • The other point is that not only are the loyals going to respawn but your character knows they're going to respawn. That's not meta information - they've seen it happen hundreds of times in the past. So I don't think it is poor RP to choose your battles if you're just gonna get more pissed off when you run in their solo and die. Of course, if you're one of the minority of players that are happy to accept a meaningful death, then do run in their solo and die, and absorb it into your RP.
Sign In or Register to comment.