If the desire is to get the playerbase to be detached enough for the issues to be overlooked then it would have died out completely already because there wouldn't have had been any second, third, or nth chances.
I'm just now coming back from an almost year long hiatus, so I'm not imagining that I'll be leaving again soon but you never know. My hiatus was caused by multiple factors, chief among them was a feeling that I wasn't doing well at combat compared to others and that to get on their level I would need 30+ wondergems which is above my paygrade. I also was getting a fair amount of heat for the monk rework which wore me down a bit. The first bit might be applicable to others, I'm doubting the second bit is.
You also can't just say that everyone who doesn't agree with you is an "administration yes-man". In one of Lusternia's State-Of-Lusternia posts a number of years ago, she actually threatened that she had been considering shrubbing me (hard to get much more adversarial than that). Both of us have worked together many times since that point, though. I'm not shy on pointing out when I think she's done something wrong (usually via an email). At the same time, though, I'm also going to say when I think they're doing things better than they were.
I find it interesting that you felt the need to defend yourself from the accusation of being an administration yes-man even though Falaeron didn't mention you in his post.
I'm not sure why you find that interesting. He added the yes-man line into his post with the strong implication that if you disagree with him, you're just being a yes-man. It's the exact same effect as what he is trying to decry; the outright dismissal of those with contrary views as being meaningless just because you don't like them. I felt it important to point that out and then gave an example for me, personally, as to why that assertion is silly.
@Versalean - you're basically blaming the players for being too emotionally invested in the game. I agree with this largely, but have you ever stopped to wonder if there's a reason why the only remaining players are the ones who are too emotionally invested?
I think that's a really useful question, although I don't agree with its premise. I can say with absolutely certainty that the only reason I'm still playing is because I'm playing just for fun. I log in, farm my urTraps, reach out for RP if I feel like it, rub goop out of my wondercorn, design a little, get my ass torn in PvP if the fancy takes me. And the very second I get bored, tired, or pissed off, I log out.
It can be convincingly argued that that's not how you're supposed to play Lusty, but it's how I'm choosing to play it. If I was more deeply invested I'd be gone like roadrunner, but not because of the game, because of the players.
It can be convincingly argued that it's the player's fault, and not the game's, when your org has been the beneficiary of many of the game's questionable systems and mechanics for the past years.
In order to do that, first you have to convincingly argue that one org has been the beneficiary of many of the game's questionable systems and mechanics for the past year-- and explain how other organizations did not have equal access.
One thing that really bugged me this year, for example, was this whole year's end-of-the-world event. My organization basically got screwed. We paid a huge amount of commodities for an item that provided a small benefit. We were then told a few months later that we had to destroy it. And that... was the entirety of our whole organization's involvement except for one last "go get a parchment" direction. Everything beyond that was me throwing myself into other people's events and trying to figure something out. Magnagora had a huge amount of the involvement / interaction. Is that Magnagora's players fault? Should we thus blame them for our commodities basically getting flushed down the drain? (Note that we still have no idea what that was about, it was never explained... just "Here you are... not!").
By no means am I claiming that everything is perfect. I would definitely like a resolution to that tapestry-thing, some day. However, on a more long-term scale I have seen these things fluctuate greatly. Glomdoring got a whole sub-arc during the Wheel of Goloths event that basically nobody else was able to participate in, and while it is not exactly the same thing (Ghani was the big baddy whereas Xynthin was more of a side effect, the Goloths Maxyenka were doing their thing regardless of him), there are some similarities in that it was a very involved and in-depth story arc with a lot of interaction and things going on.
Note that the interaction thing ties back to some of the earlier points that other people (and myself) have said. This is, I think, an issue of resources (primarily volunteer time and preference). More is better, but in the end all I can do is point out what I don't like, what I do, and go from there.
It has been many, many RL years since someone Divine Mandated a Nexus room while they conducted an hour-long solo RP session or changed the Ravenwood to be pink, so from my perspective I have seen a lot of improvement over time (as examples; I could also bring up things like golden feces). What I truly do not want to see is going backwards, and I am very afraid that this conversation is pushing our volunteers in that direction.
When you win you should get a little "yay" just like when you beat Sephiroth. But when you lose it shouldn't be as psychologically damaging as it sometimes is - I include myself in this as somebody who has felt pretty effing awful over stuff that's happened entirely within the four walls of a MUD and which really, when all said and done doesn't matter.
I think that the ability for Lusternia to pull you in and make you care way too much is one of its greatest strengths and potentially also its greatest weakness for the reasons you mentioned. I agree that for the individual mental health of players and god volunteers that it would be best to treat it like any other game. However if that were was that kind of detachment I'm not sure if our volunteers would be working so hard and I'm positive that many players of this game would not have spent the kind of money they have on it.
I'm not sure why you find that interesting. He added the yes-man line into his post with the strong implication that if you disagree with him, you're just being a yes-man. It's the exact same effect as what he is trying to decry; the outright dismissal of those with contrary views as being meaningless just because you don't like them. I felt it important to point that out and then gave an example for me, personally, as to why that assertion is silly.
To my reading that was not a strong implication which is why I found your inference interesting.
How much stronger can you get than "How dare I think that anything the admins do can ever be anything but perfect? It must be my fault for thinking that," followed by "Everyone is too scared of being attacked for holding a view that is contrary to what the administration team would like to hear."?
Both are sweeping assertions. Nobody has ever said that everything the admin team does is perfect. Heck, even they themselves readily admit that. And, if you do not agree with the second assertion, you are not part of everyone-- explicitly a nobody, a yes-man (by his own wording).
Everyone is entitled to their own views and opinions. There are people who like what they see, people who don't, and (likely the majority) somewhere in the middle of these two extremes. It is certainly not fair to state that your own opinion is all that matters and that disagreeing means you're all-in on the "other side" (as if the administration is some side in a turf war).
I think that focusing on any one organization, any one admin decision or any one player is missing the forest for the trees here. There's two self-reinforcing cycles at work in the game that drive the current problems with the game:
On the left, we have the virtuous cycle where the player trusts that going through channels (envoys, emailing support, contacting patron, issues) will accomplish something, so they try to solve their problems that way. If the administration can fix their problem, they see it as the system working; if the administration can't, they get an explanation as to why and don't feel (as) upset about it. Trust is maintained and the admin-player dialog continues.
On the right, we have the vicious cycle where the player thinks that the admins don't care what they think, so they try to rally popular support on the forums (or in OOC clans, or discord, etc.) The admin eventually notice. If they do something, the player views this as proof that the admin only change things if there's playerbase outrage; if the Admin don't, the player sees this as proof that the admin honestly don't care what the playerbase thinks. Trust erodes and the player develops an antagonistic relationship with the admins.
The problem is that an admin-player dialog is MUCH MUCH more likely to produce actual solutions than complaining on the forums, but that the people who have hard-to-tackle problems are precisely the ones who have long since stopped trusting that an admin-player dialog is useful. The concerns of the high-trust players are met while the concerns of the low-trust players aren't; this is taken as admin favoritism by the low-trust players and as trouble-making by the high-trust players. The high-trust players get called yes-men while the low-trust players get called myopic. The playerbase ends up at each other's throats.
When was the last time Lusternia had a great hunt? Or auctions? What did we do for our anniversary?
When was the last time HELP GODS was updated?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
@Versalean - you're basically blaming the players for being too emotionally invested in the game. I agree with this largely, but have you ever stopped to wonder if there's a reason why the only remaining players are the ones who are too emotionally invested?
The ones that just played the game for fun left.
Could argue that the people who played for fun left because those so emotionally invested could no longer differenciate between characterd and players killed the joy for them.
We've had people look at the way the game has had an effect on others and quit out of sheer aversion to ending up like them.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
@Moi, I agree with you overall but I think there's another element to this specifically dealing with skill changes. Going through the proper channels for a skill change means doing a decent amount of envoying which is especially difficult if you're trying to envoy another organization's skills and they do not agree that the skill has an issue. It's several times easier to identify an issue with a skill and post it to the forums then come up with a solution that would be agreeable to everyone. I think that's why we see a fairly large number of complaints in various channels like the forums about the same skills over and over, and relatively few (if any) reports about them.
One thing I've noticed over the years is that people who complain about a skill feel like the clock has started from the time of the first complaint even though the official system is based on reports. This leads to a feeling that "the admin have known about this skill for years" but with zero reports which seems like a lose-lose for the administration to me. If they change skills without reports that will be complained about as well, if they don't change it then they are ignoring the players as you pointed out.
In regards to Lusternia's general playerbase being at each others throat / involvement, etc:
- When I was starting here three years ago, I got the distinct punch in the head from the forums a few times, or at least it felt that way. Not really so much by what I said or got in response myself, but by watching what boiled down in the threads that were popping up left and right at the time. It was horrifying for me. Like, given I was an admin in a non-ire game for over a decade I thought I had seen player outrages and was prepared for them, but... ehm, I was not. As much as I love the people here, some days some will just jump at each others throats, tearing themselves apart on, what I feel, are opinions formed in times where I hadn't even yet considered playing. Things have calmed down considerably in the last year, but I am not sure if that's actually because people got more grip on things or if it's simply because many stopped caring. Either way... it still scares me when I see signs of it. You're great people, no need to tear yourselves apart over things
one of the pk issues:
In my personal opinion moi has some points that may reflect a part of what is happening, but for me there's another cycle, one that Wobou maybe hinted at and, at least for me, hurts people a lot too. I've perceived it as this: - a group with interest in PK at the moment, desiring to have encounters chooses to raid. For them, this is fun, they do want the encounter at the moment. - The defendand group is possibly mid RP, mid event or mid-bashing, aetherhunting, you name it. Most of the people affected feel enough connection to their characters that they'll not just ignore the cry of their loyal denizens, break up whatever they're doing to raise to the challenge. - in a lot of those situations, the people who are responding aren't people who're mostly out for PK ( unless some of the PK-People are awake and join the fray, in which this circle usually doesn't happen) - The defendents are usually way less prepared to deal with the newest tricks the raiding team has come up with, maybe because PK isn't their main / only interested, maybe because their skills are outdated and weren't chosen mostly for PK-toolkitting, maybe because of inexperience or other reasons. - The result is a large bunch of people who feel "obliged to defend" pitted against a few people who enjoy it, which starts off frustrating and blows out of propotion easily. - More often then not, if the attackers are wiped, they'll still continue to assault, because they're sensing a challenge. To many of the defenders however, the feeling that is taken away that, not only are they not as effective as their attackers, but also they're not given a chance to actually claim victory in defending their territories.
The result from this is, that a lot of people walk away from this in a feeling that they're unfairly handled and, I think, many mechanical issues are thrown out of proportion easily by the rather unfair setup. For a comparison, I've in my entire 2 years of PK have never seen anyone walk from a set conflict event ( aside of an ascension ) with the same feeling that these raids cause. Still, some prejudices continue to hold themselves, but it never blows of proportion as that, because you have a set environment that you can analyze and understand why you lost.
And no, this is not a stab towards glomdoring, before anybody thinks this. This has literally, form my point of view, been 80% of all raids that I was tangiable aware.
The envoy/skillset issues:
There's frankly, a lot of issues with certain skills and skillets out there. The druid skills in paritcular as well as wiccan skillets come to my mind at first, despite sometimes being perceived at as rather strong sometimes, but really compose of one or two extra strong abilities, a bit of support, very little flexibility and feel of an overally dated. skillset Same goes as for most mage terts that I've seen, I mean telepathy and telekinesis anyone?
The problem within addressing these things is not the lack of ideas, but the actual general locked in problem we find ourselves in. Most envoys are not impartial to what is happening ( I do not exclude myself here, I have had my moments of defensiveness towards one skill or another ), especially when their own skills are involved. Other part is a general sense of having the need to be asked for "permission" to have their own skills changed extuded by almost all orgs' envoys of the two years that I've paid attention to the envoy system. It often has ended in attempts of bantering one ability for another and, sometimes very tense arguments. We are, all, also humans and rebalancing is not something that is fun. Has the envoy system failed? No, I do not believe so. Does it need for everyone involved to take a deep breath and try to step back more and focus more away from their own skills? Yes, I do believe that. I personally also would wish that we could get away from the general impression that there's a need to "defend" or "attack" skillsets, because ultimately we're a ll in the same boat. We want a game that is fun and as envoys, we're the one of the sources admin can draw it's information for needed change from.
And the overall last issue: speaking up.
Honestly, with all of the above, I've been very hesistant to even write anything at all. I'm not the most well shielded person in the world, anyone who's known me or my character, knows that I'm not always the best to not take things to heart. And frankly, the amount of aggressive counter-arguments that have been made on the forums over the past year, make it very hard to me to address anything at all publically. I'm not saying people should not argue against me, if you disagree, please do, I welcome it. But I have had enough of comments in the line of "you're just seeing everything wrong.", "Suck it up.", "You just need to try harder." to outright "You're being abrasive.". I am in doubt that even half of the people who had spoken up to other people stating their concerns meant it like that, but to me, it echoed back like that and it made me dare less and less to say on these forums.
Normally, I'd now go back and delete half of what I said, for the fear of the very same reactions. But I'm very glad that this thread is happening and I believe, for no matter how much people will dislike what I say, I believe my 2 cc are also worth to be said.
What do I think would be good next steps?
I'd personally say we try and see, together, what can be done to restablish the trust that a lot of us seem to have lost over the years. Figure out what can be done and try to tackle the problems that make the game less fun for us all. It may take a while, we might have to fight the one or other battle, we may have to be patient with theo ne or other change, but I believe this thread has brough to the surface what has been boiling beneath the surface for a long time.
@Versalean - you're basically blaming the players for being too emotionally invested in the game. I agree with this largely, but have you ever stopped to wonder if there's a reason why the only remaining players are the ones who are too emotionally invested?
The ones that just played the game for fun left.
That's kind of what I was trying to imply. I also don't understand how I can be chided for being "exactly what Versalean was talking about", then have him turn around and say he misrepresented his own words. Talk about unfair much.
I'm not going to be sorry for seeing real, human benefits in gaming (not just Lusternia), for the reasons I listed. And if Lusternia lost those benefits to me, I'd find another game.
Also, the bulk of my post was about artifacts, which everyone seems to have overlooked, which is...you know...a huge part of the problem.
If the desire is to get the playerbase to be detached enough for the issues to be overlooked then it would have died out completely already because there wouldn't have had been any second, third, or nth chances.
One thing that you are absolutely spot-on about is the raider vs. defender discrepancy, Aeldra. The only thing "wrong" with it is the notion that it is a "cycle". This has been an ongoing issue since I started playing. The only thing that changes is who the people are who are doing the raiding, everything else is the same. Sometimes (due to time zone differences) it is even people in one org attacking another, logging off for bed after a while, then the people in the other org get off work / log in / raid back. All the current conflict systems are either random/rare or are player-initiated (like Domoths) and thus usually scheduled to minimize opposition (because people want to win the reward), so the only on-demand conflict available is a raid.
I have made a lot of posts on this subject throughout the years, though. While a number of ideas have been presented to address it, nothing has really caught on to the point that it has made its way into implementation.
Lack of conflict events
is really the crux of a number of issues with the game.
Nodes/Villages/Flares are so few and far between its not uncommon for
a player to not see one of these events for literal real life months at a time.
This forces raids and sparing to be the only real way people can get
their conflict enjoyment.(Doesn't have to be pvp, aetherflares or hunting competitions etc etc, just something)
More frequent opt in
conflict events would solve a lot of the problems raised here.
--
One big point I
think everyone needs to take to heart though is that a game like
Lusternia is only as good as the player base. Keep it classy, try and be civil with everyone and even if you don't agree or don't like someone don't slander and don't backbite or insult in public forums.
There are discord and other OOC channels
where known figures have accused admin outright of cheating, bias and
destroying the game. We've had a true newbie to the game tell me
about how their first experience of joining Lusternia discord to ask
some questions was met with homophobic, racist death threats from
certain known members of the community.
It's a horrible
experience for a newbie to come in and hear this kind of stuff.
Lack of conflict events
is really the crux of a number of issues with the game.
Nodes/Villages/Flares are so few and far between its not uncommon for
a player to not see one of these events for literal real life months at a time.
This forces raids and sparing to be the only real way people can get
their conflict enjoyment.(Doesn't have to be pvp, aetherflares or hunting competitions etc etc, just something)
More frequent opt in
conflict events would solve a lot of the problems raised here
If they wish to retain the few remaining people who actively participate and care about combat, sure this is a solution. However, IMO it would please the whales while probably driving off more of the players they "consume" in said frequent conflict events.
On the other hand, I think it might be too late for the solutions I would propose in it's stead. Pleasing the whales might just be Lust's only chance of continuing on and that will only work for a time. The more I ruminate on it the more I think they have been in this mode for some time, based on the "Wonder items".
I think things should be looked at where enemies of the Org being raided / Plane being raided should have heavier consequences for doing so - and before anyone says something about constructs and discretionaries, yes, I know those are options, but when there might not be an Aide to Security online and the massive power costs for discretionaries, I think those should be extra perks for holding constructs as they are, with still a standard consequence for being in enemy territory.
Example of extra consequence: - Slower movement within enemy org/plane territory. - Slower leaving within enemy org/plane territory (via cubix, teleportation, empress, pyramid, torus and any other fandangle contraptions there are for moving) - For Elemental planes, natives of the Org the Plane is tied to are not affected by wind/currents/fire/earth moving | non-enemies have the standard effects | enemies have increased chance of being moved about by these effects. - Where Air/Water/Fire/Earth Lords | Ethereal Aspects beings are situated should have a decreased entry/exit for enemies, slower eq/bal recovery for entering that area (ex. entering/exiting the monolith on Ethereal Serenwilde should SLOW enemies down). For elemental planes, where entrance to the Lords are, there should be an item similar to the monolith/feather of Ethereal Planes again with slower entry/exit for enemies.
These are just a few things off the top of my head as IDEAS.
-----------------
It's incredibly disheartening to stop doing something (like hunting, RP, etc), to go to defend - because, let's face it, when you're being spammed over and over on CT by the loyals you start to feel guilty that you're trying to enjoy the game through something else, but end up going because you feel ICly and then OOCly that you *have* to go, otherwise not going is frowned upon - and then when you DO get to the Plane being raided, it seems the enemies have the upper hand in our own territory?? Like, they're able to kill a group of Hallifaxians on Continuum or Air flat out in a few moments, despite us working together to hinder / kill enemies. And also they are able to quickly escape, which I don't know how that happens since when trying to escape with masochism off it's supposed to be delayed. And yet *poof* they're gone and we're running around like headless chickens or dead.
As I said earlier on in the thread, PvP is not a be-all, end-all for me in Lusternia, but for others it is, and a majority of those people have left/retired/or are planning to retire, and it generally seems to be those that are friends of me or friends of friends. And that hurts.
I do like to enjoy the odd conflict event (and yes, even defending sometimes), I'm not saying that we should always win in our own territory or always win on defence, but when the majority of times lately we are always losing and sometimes even with numbers in own terriroty, it's really really bloody exhausting. I die a little every time I see someone raiding Air or Continnum, because I know if I go, it's going to be more of the same. And I know this has happened to "the other side" as well. I've seen it happen to everyone, and I've seen many people burn out from it, get angry and qq, or spend the rest of their time online for that day/evening quiet and upset.
If anyone knows me, I generally tend to be positive most of the time, and try to cheer people up, that's just how I deal with sadness.
------------------
On another note, for Org Leaders and what can you do,
Encourage growth in your city and communes. Encourage younger and "new" players to take on the roles of Ministry positions and guild positions alike. Encourage your younger and "new" members to get stuck in with all aspects of the game. Work with guild leaders to flesh out their guilds. But also don't forget your well-established older players, either, because if the newbies stop playing, they're still going to be there.
And the main thing, FOR ALL PLAYERS - we are all so wrapped up in our own playtime and things we want to do, take five minutes of your playtime, see if there is a newbie on - whether you think they are an alt or a "true newbie" or not - reach out to them and see if they are ok, see if they have questions. Maybe say, "Hey what level are you? Have you ever been to xyz for hunting?" / "Did you know about collecting bards and scholars?" etc etc.
Perhaps an idea is to look at the current structure within your city / commune, and get together to have an open forum and ask everyone active what thoughts/feelings/ideas are to move forward and encourage said growth/goals and how to achieve them (if not able to get to meeting(s), post questions and thoughts brought up to your news boards and have it as open feedback? for citizens to express their own thoughts/feelings/ideas when they have time to). Rather than coming here to the forums, try doing things IN GAME.
(Sorry for the long post, I wanted to add more as there are many points in this thread I agree with but, these two stood out for me today and today is bad day)
I'm firmly against adding more "punishments" for people who choose to raid. I'd rather see more scenarios that facilitate PK than detract what seems to be an ever dwindling number.
What should be encouraged is people raiding knowing they're going to be going against other combatants, hitting and swatting over a bunch of noncoms isn't impressive, and anyone who chestbeats should be mocked for doing so.
I wish there were resources that could be fought over on a mutually pre-agreed time, or admin set in advance so people can plan for it. PK is part guesswork, part ducking actual fights and part luck to be on at the right time.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
And the main thing, FOR ALL PLAYERS - we are all so wrapped up in our own playtime and things we want to do, take five minutes of your playtime, see if there is a newbie on - whether you think they are an alt or a "true newbie" or not - reach out to them and see if they are ok, see if they have questions. Maybe say, "Hey what level are you? Have you ever been to xyz for hunting?" / "Did you know about collecting bards and scholars?" etc etc.
I don't disagree with a lot of the complaints or frustrations people are outlining here.
However, if you feel sad or guilty because your loyals died or are in the process of shrieking horrifically about their impending demise... you're probably too emotionally invested. They're not real, and even better, they'll come back- so don't waste your precious free time being dragged into activities (defending, etc.) that you don't want to be involved in. You're gonna burnout, you're gonna have a bad time.
Lusternia is a game. If you feel compelled to do something that you don't find enjoyable or is detrimental to your experience, you don't actually have to do it.
So don't.
I think this mindset is something that definitely needs to change, and in this instance the onus is on the players and not on the admin/mechanics.
I don't disagree with a lot of the complaints or frustrations people are outlining here.
However, if you feel sad or guilty because your loyals died or are in the process of shrieking horrifically about their impending demise... you're probably too emotionally invested. They're not real, and even better, they'll come back- so don't waste your precious free time being dragged into activities (defending, etc.) that you don't want to be involved in. You're gonna burnout, you're gonna have a bad time.
Lusternia is a game. If you feel compelled to do something that you don't find enjoyable or is detrimental to your experience, you don't actually have to do it.
So don't.
I think this mindset is something that definitely needs to change, and in this instance the onus is on the players and not on the admin/mechanics.
I don't disagree with what you say about being emotionally invested - but then, a lot of us have been playing this game for 10+ years, it's a bit hard /not/ to be emotionally invested at this point, especially when we've spent $$$ on it, too.
I know I don't have to do it, sometimes I don't because I honestly don't feel like sitting there staring at my screen and feeling the way I feel when I do go to defend and end up feeling worse than if I had just left it. There's nothing worse thinking that you're going to make a difference, walk into a room -- sometimes by accident, re:Air plane and it's funky throw you around randomly - and barely have someone targetted or a command entered and you notice you're dead already. That isn't fun. Which is why I suggested things like the extra consequences - I mean, it might not change anything, but that's why we idea things or suggest changes to try, right?
I haven't even touched the argument of artifacts and skills - that's a whole different ball-game and another addition over raiding and combat that needs to be looked at, and one that has been iterated in the above thread, with mostly points of which I agree with.
@Lothringen Probably one of the issues people have with just saying, "Oh such and such mobs will just respawn in an hour, no big deal" is that feels like very flimsy roleplay. Yeah, objectively I know it doesn't really matter, but wouldn't my character care? If I've roleplayed being an ardent defender of the elemental plane of soda, and an enemy shows up and starts killing the fizzypop lords, and my character doesn't go, because I'm really having a good time hunting the undead, headless chickens in the new haunted petting zoo area, it's gonna wreck my immersion, which in turn will make me care a whole lot less about bothering to do anything in the first place.
I don't disagree with a lot of the complaints or frustrations people are outlining here.
However, if you feel sad or guilty because your loyals died or are in the process of shrieking horrifically about their impending demise... you're probably too emotionally invested. They're not real, and even better, they'll come back- so don't waste your precious free time being dragged into activities (defending, etc.) that you don't want to be involved in. You're gonna burnout, you're gonna have a bad time.
Lusternia is a game. If you feel compelled to do something that you don't find enjoyable or is detrimental to your experience, you don't actually have to do it.
So don't.
I think this mindset is something that definitely needs to change, and in this instance the onus is on the players and not on the admin/mechanics.
This. So much, this.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
@Lothringen Probably one of the issues people have with just saying, "Oh such and such mobs will just respawn in an hour, no big deal" is that feels like very flimsy roleplay. Yeah, objectively I know it doesn't really matter, but wouldn't my character care? If I've roleplayed being an ardent defender of the elemental plane of soda, and an enemy shows up and starts killing the fizzypop lords, and my character doesn't go, because I'm really having a good time hunting the undead, headless chickens in the new haunted petting zoo area, it's gonna wreck my immersion, which in turn will make me care a whole lot less about bothering to do anything in the first place.
Well if you don't enjoy combat, you could RP not being an ardent (physical) defender of the plane of soda. I mean I could be upset I can not be RPing being the best writer in the basin because I am a horrible author RL, or I could you know just accept such RP is not possible for me and use a more suitable RP for my playstyle.
@Lothringen Probably one of the issues people have with just saying, "Oh such and such mobs will just respawn in an hour, no big deal" is that feels like very flimsy roleplay. Yeah, objectively I know it doesn't really matter, but wouldn't my character care? If I've roleplayed being an ardent defender of the elemental plane of soda, and an enemy shows up and starts killing the fizzypop lords, and my character doesn't go, because I'm really having a good time hunting the undead, headless chickens in the new haunted petting zoo area, it's gonna wreck my immersion, which in turn will make me care a whole lot less about bothering to do anything in the first place.
You can roleplay absolutely anything you want, and that's your choice (or burden, depending.) You're 100% responsible for the character you've created, so if you have zero interest (or don't enjoy) being a zealous defender of the flying spaghetti monster... don't be one. And don't expect the game to change to suit your choice.
(Collective "yous", here, not you, you.)
I'm generally opposed to changing mechanics for something that individuals have complete choice and control over, especially when said mechanics might detrimentally affect someone else's enjoyment of the game. Then we simply lose other players, for different reasons.
@Lothringen Probably one of the issues people have with just saying, "Oh such and such mobs will just respawn in an hour, no big deal" is that feels like very flimsy roleplay. Yeah, objectively I know it doesn't really matter, but wouldn't my character care? If I've roleplayed being an ardent defender of the elemental plane of soda, and an enemy shows up and starts killing the fizzypop lords, and my character doesn't go, because I'm really having a good time hunting the undead, headless chickens in the new haunted petting zoo area, it's gonna wreck my immersion, which in turn will make me care a whole lot less about bothering to do anything in the first place.
While I agree it is a challenge to RP, it's one of those things you have to give up for your own sanity. Yeah, I could go defend like I want to but all I'm going to do is:
1 ) Probably end up defending alone. 2 ) Die incredibly fast 3 ) Be less happy than before.
So you just have to ignore it if you want to be happy. Unfortunately, despite all the conflict in Lusternia, being a "warrior" for your nation is the hardest to RP because most of us just don't seem that good compared to the "whales". If you can't code, you're at a disadvantage. If you can't buy all the artefacts/wonderitems you're at a disadvantage. If you're playing an outdated class (or not playing the newest best class), disadvantage. If you don't have friends who also devote time and money to the game's combat, disadvantage.
I could keep going on and on, but at the end of the day the time and cash investment required to be a "warrior" character that actually can stand a chance against characters I won't name, is enormous. On the other hand, said awesome players made that investment so why shouldn't you have to? Which is the rub, they shouldn't have had to invest that much either or even had the option to. Alas, money is the end goal and IRE is a business.
The other point is that not only are the loyals going to respawn but your character knows they're going to respawn. That's not meta information - they've seen it happen hundreds of times in the past. So I don't think it is poor RP to choose your battles if you're just gonna get more pissed off when you run in their solo and die. Of course, if you're one of the minority of players that are happy to accept a meaningful death, then do run in their solo and die, and absorb it into your RP.
Comments
The ones that just played the game for fun left.
It can be convincingly argued that that's not how you're supposed to play Lusty, but it's how I'm choosing to play it. If I was more deeply invested I'd be gone like roadrunner, but not because of the game, because of the players.
One thing that really bugged me this year, for example, was this whole year's end-of-the-world event. My organization basically got screwed. We paid a huge amount of commodities for an item that provided a small benefit. We were then told a few months later that we had to destroy it. And that... was the entirety of our whole organization's involvement except for one last "go get a parchment" direction. Everything beyond that was me throwing myself into other people's events and trying to figure something out. Magnagora had a huge amount of the involvement / interaction. Is that Magnagora's players fault? Should we thus blame them for our commodities basically getting flushed down the drain? (Note that we still have no idea what that was about, it was never explained... just "Here you are... not!").
By no means am I claiming that everything is perfect. I would definitely like a resolution to that tapestry-thing, some day. However, on a more long-term scale I have seen these things fluctuate greatly. Glomdoring got a whole sub-arc during the Wheel of Goloths event that basically nobody else was able to participate in, and while it is not exactly the same thing (Ghani was the big baddy whereas Xynthin was more of a side effect, the Goloths Maxyenka were doing their thing regardless of him), there are some similarities in that it was a very involved and in-depth story arc with a lot of interaction and things going on.
Note that the interaction thing ties back to some of the earlier points that other people (and myself) have said. This is, I think, an issue of resources (primarily volunteer time and preference). More is better, but in the end all I can do is point out what I don't like, what I do, and go from there.
It has been many, many RL years since someone Divine Mandated a Nexus room while they conducted an hour-long solo RP session or changed the Ravenwood to be pink, so from my perspective I have seen a lot of improvement over time (as examples; I could also bring up things like golden feces). What I truly do not want to see is going backwards, and I am very afraid that this conversation is pushing our volunteers in that direction.
To my reading that was not a strong implication which is why I found your inference interesting.
Both are sweeping assertions. Nobody has ever said that everything the admin team does is perfect. Heck, even they themselves readily admit that. And, if you do not agree with the second assertion, you are not part of everyone-- explicitly a nobody, a yes-man (by his own wording).
Everyone is entitled to their own views and opinions. There are people who like what they see, people who don't, and (likely the majority) somewhere in the middle of these two extremes. It is certainly not fair to state that your own opinion is all that matters and that disagreeing means you're all-in on the "other side" (as if the administration is some side in a turf war).
On the left, we have the virtuous cycle where the player trusts that going through channels (envoys, emailing support, contacting patron, issues) will accomplish something, so they try to solve their problems that way. If the administration can fix their problem, they see it as the system working; if the administration can't, they get an explanation as to why and don't feel (as) upset about it. Trust is maintained and the admin-player dialog continues.
On the right, we have the vicious cycle where the player thinks that the admins don't care what they think, so they try to rally popular support on the forums (or in OOC clans, or discord, etc.) The admin eventually notice. If they do something, the player views this as proof that the admin only change things if there's playerbase outrage; if the Admin don't, the player sees this as proof that the admin honestly don't care what the playerbase thinks. Trust erodes and the player develops an antagonistic relationship with the admins.
The problem is that an admin-player dialog is MUCH MUCH more likely to produce actual solutions than complaining on the forums, but that the people who have hard-to-tackle problems are precisely the ones who have long since stopped trusting that an admin-player dialog is useful. The concerns of the high-trust players are met while the concerns of the low-trust players aren't; this is taken as admin favoritism by the low-trust players and as trouble-making by the high-trust players. The high-trust players get called yes-men while the low-trust players get called myopic. The playerbase ends up at each other's throats.
When was the last time HELP GODS was updated?
We've had people look at the way the game has had an effect on others and quit out of sheer aversion to ending up like them.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
One thing I've noticed over the years is that people who complain about a skill feel like the clock has started from the time of the first complaint even though the official system is based on reports. This leads to a feeling that "the admin have known about this skill for years" but with zero reports which seems like a lose-lose for the administration to me. If they change skills without reports that will be complained about as well, if they don't change it then they are ignoring the players as you pointed out.
- When I was starting here three years ago, I got the distinct punch in the head from the forums a few times, or at least it felt that way. Not really so much by what I said or got in response myself, but by watching what boiled down in the threads that were popping up left and right at the time. It was horrifying for me. Like, given I was an admin in a non-ire game for over a decade I thought I had seen player outrages and was prepared for them, but... ehm, I was not. As much as I love the people here, some days some will just jump at each others throats, tearing themselves apart on, what I feel, are opinions formed in times where I hadn't even yet considered playing. Things have calmed down considerably in the last year, but I am not sure if that's actually because people got more grip on things or if it's simply because many stopped caring. Either way... it still scares me when I see signs of it. You're great people, no need to tear yourselves apart over things
one of the pk issues:
In my personal opinion moi has some points that may reflect a part of what is happening, but for me there's another cycle, one that Wobou maybe hinted at and, at least for me, hurts people a lot too. I've perceived it as this:
- a group with interest in PK at the moment, desiring to have encounters chooses to raid. For them, this is fun, they do want the encounter at the moment.
- The defendand group is possibly mid RP, mid event or mid-bashing, aetherhunting, you name it. Most of the people affected feel enough
connection to their characters that they'll not just ignore the cry of their loyal denizens, break up whatever they're doing to raise to the challenge.
- in a lot of those situations, the people who are responding aren't people who're mostly out for PK ( unless some of the PK-People are awake and join
the fray, in which this circle usually doesn't happen)
- The defendents are usually way less prepared to deal with the newest tricks the raiding team has come up with, maybe because PK isn't their main / only interested,
maybe because their skills are outdated and weren't chosen mostly for PK-toolkitting, maybe because of inexperience or other reasons.
- The result is a large bunch of people who feel "obliged to defend" pitted against a few people who enjoy it, which starts off frustrating and blows out of propotion easily.
- More often then not, if the attackers are wiped, they'll still continue to assault, because they're sensing a challenge. To many of the defenders however, the feeling that
is taken away that, not only are they not as effective as their attackers, but also they're not given a chance to actually claim victory in defending their territories.
The result from this is, that a lot of people walk away from this in a feeling that they're unfairly handled and, I think, many mechanical issues are thrown out of proportion easily by the rather unfair setup. For a comparison, I've in my entire 2 years of PK have never seen anyone walk from a set conflict event ( aside of an ascension ) with the same feeling that these raids cause. Still, some prejudices continue to hold themselves, but it never blows of proportion as that, because you have a set environment that you can analyze and understand why you lost.
And no, this is not a stab towards glomdoring, before anybody thinks this. This has literally, form my point of view, been 80% of all raids that I was tangiable aware.
The envoy/skillset issues:
There's frankly, a lot of issues with certain skills and skillets out there. The druid skills in paritcular as well as wiccan skillets come to my mind at first, despite sometimes being perceived at as rather strong sometimes, but really compose of one or two extra strong abilities, a bit of support, very little flexibility and feel of an overally dated. skillset Same goes as for most mage terts that I've seen, I mean telepathy and telekinesis anyone?
The problem within addressing these things is not the lack of ideas, but the actual general locked in problem we find ourselves in. Most envoys are not impartial to what is happening ( I do not exclude myself here, I have had my moments of defensiveness towards one skill or another ), especially when their own skills are involved. Other part is a general sense of having the need to be asked for "permission" to have their own skills changed extuded by almost all orgs' envoys of the two years that I've paid attention to the envoy system. It often has ended in attempts of bantering one ability for another and, sometimes very tense arguments. We are, all, also humans and rebalancing is not something that is fun. Has the envoy system failed? No, I do not believe so. Does it need for everyone involved to take a deep breath and try to step back more and focus more away from their own skills? Yes, I do believe that. I personally also would wish that we could get away from the general impression that there's a need to "defend" or "attack" skillsets, because ultimately we're a ll in the same boat. We want a game that is fun and as envoys, we're the one of the sources admin can draw it's information for needed change from.
And the overall last issue: speaking up.
Honestly, with all of the above, I've been very hesistant to even write anything at all. I'm not the most well shielded person in the world, anyone who's known me or my character, knows that I'm not always the best to not take things to heart. And frankly, the amount of aggressive counter-arguments that have been made on the forums over the past year, make it very hard to me to address anything at all publically. I'm not saying people should not argue against me, if you disagree, please do, I welcome it. But I have had enough of comments in the line of "you're just seeing everything wrong.", "Suck it up.", "You just need to try harder." to outright "You're being abrasive.". I am in doubt that even half of the people who had spoken up to other people stating their concerns meant it like that, but to me, it echoed back like that and it made me dare less and less to say on these forums.
Normally, I'd now go back and delete half of what I said, for the fear of the very same reactions. But I'm very glad that this thread is happening and I believe, for no matter how much people will dislike what I say, I believe my 2 cc are also worth to be said.
What do I think would be good next steps?
I'd personally say we try and see, together, what can be done to restablish the trust that a lot of us seem to have lost over the years. Figure out what can be done and try to tackle the problems that make the game less fun for us all. It may take a while, we might have to fight the one or other battle, we may have to be patient with theo ne or other change, but I believe this thread has brough to the surface what has been boiling beneath the surface for a long time.
I keep my fingers crossed for us all
I'm not going to be sorry for seeing real, human benefits in gaming (not just Lusternia), for the reasons I listed. And if Lusternia lost those benefits to me, I'd find another game.
Also, the bulk of my post was about artifacts, which everyone seems to have overlooked, which is...you know...a huge part of the problem.
(also, I wouldn't be spending any money)
I have made a lot of posts on this subject throughout the years, though. While a number of ideas have been presented to address it, nothing has really caught on to the point that it has made its way into implementation.
Lack of conflict events is really the crux of a number of issues with the game. Nodes/Villages/Flares are so few and far between its not uncommon for a player to not see one of these events for literal real life months at a time. This forces raids and sparing to be the only real way people can get their conflict enjoyment.(Doesn't have to be pvp, aetherflares or hunting competitions etc etc, just something)
More frequent opt in conflict events would solve a lot of the problems raised here.
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One big point I think everyone needs to take to heart though is that a game like Lusternia is only as good as the player base. Keep it classy, try and be civil with everyone and even if you don't agree or don't like someone don't slander and don't backbite or insult in public forums.
There are discord and other OOC channels where known figures have accused admin outright of cheating, bias and destroying the game. We've had a true newbie to the game tell me about how their first experience of joining Lusternia discord to ask some questions was met with homophobic, racist death threats from certain known members of the community. It's a horrible experience for a newbie to come in and hear this kind of stuff.On the other hand, I think it might be too late for the solutions I would propose in it's stead. Pleasing the whales might just be Lust's only chance of continuing on and that will only work for a time. The more I ruminate on it the more I think they have been in this mode for some time, based on the "Wonder items".
Re: Raiding
I think things should be looked at where enemies of the Org being raided / Plane being raided should have heavier consequences for doing so - and before anyone says something about constructs and discretionaries, yes, I know those are options, but when there might not be an Aide to Security online and the massive power costs for discretionaries, I think those should be extra perks for holding constructs as they are, with still a standard consequence for being in enemy territory.
Example of extra consequence:
- Slower movement within enemy org/plane territory.
- Slower leaving within enemy org/plane territory (via cubix, teleportation, empress, pyramid, torus and any other fandangle contraptions there are for moving)
- For Elemental planes, natives of the Org the Plane is tied to are not affected by wind/currents/fire/earth moving | non-enemies have the standard effects | enemies have increased chance of being moved about by these effects.
- Where Air/Water/Fire/Earth Lords | Ethereal Aspects beings are situated should have a decreased entry/exit for enemies, slower eq/bal recovery for entering that area (ex. entering/exiting the monolith on Ethereal Serenwilde should SLOW enemies down). For elemental planes, where entrance to the Lords are, there should be an item similar to the monolith/feather of Ethereal Planes again with slower entry/exit for enemies.
These are just a few things off the top of my head as IDEAS.
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It's incredibly disheartening to stop doing something (like hunting, RP, etc), to go to defend - because, let's face it, when you're being spammed over and over on CT by the loyals you start to feel guilty that you're trying to enjoy the game through something else, but end up going because you feel ICly and then OOCly that you *have* to go, otherwise not going is frowned upon - and then when you DO get to the Plane being raided, it seems the enemies have the upper hand in our own territory?? Like, they're able to kill a group of Hallifaxians on Continuum or Air flat out in a few moments, despite us working together to hinder / kill enemies. And also they are able to quickly escape, which I don't know how that happens since when trying to escape with masochism off it's supposed to be delayed. And yet *poof* they're gone and we're running around like headless chickens or dead.
As I said earlier on in the thread, PvP is not a be-all, end-all for me in Lusternia, but for others it is, and a majority of those people have left/retired/or are planning to retire, and it generally seems to be those that are friends of me or friends of friends. And that hurts.
I do like to enjoy the odd conflict event (and yes, even defending sometimes), I'm not saying that we should always win in our own territory or always win on defence, but when the majority of times lately we are always losing and sometimes even with numbers in own terriroty, it's really really bloody exhausting. I die a little every time I see someone raiding Air or Continnum, because I know if I go, it's going to be more of the same. And I know this has happened to "the other side" as well. I've seen it happen to everyone, and I've seen many people burn out from it, get angry and qq, or spend the rest of their time online for that day/evening quiet and upset.
If anyone knows me, I generally tend to be positive most of the time, and try to cheer people up, that's just how I deal with sadness.
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On another note, for Org Leaders and what can you do,
Encourage growth in your city and communes. Encourage younger and "new" players to take on the roles of Ministry positions and guild positions alike. Encourage your younger and "new" members to get stuck in with all aspects of the game. Work with guild leaders to flesh out their guilds. But also don't forget your well-established older players, either, because if the newbies stop playing, they're still going to be there.
And the main thing, FOR ALL PLAYERS - we are all so wrapped up in our own playtime and things we want to do, take five minutes of your playtime, see if there is a newbie on - whether you think they are an alt or a "true newbie" or not - reach out to them and see if they are ok, see if they have questions. Maybe say, "Hey what level are you? Have you ever been to xyz for hunting?" / "Did you know about collecting bards and scholars?" etc etc.
Perhaps an idea is to look at the current structure within your city / commune, and get together to have an open forum and ask everyone active what thoughts/feelings/ideas are to move forward and encourage said growth/goals and how to achieve them (if not able to get to meeting(s), post questions and thoughts brought up to your news boards and have it as open feedback? for citizens to express their own thoughts/feelings/ideas when they have time to). Rather than coming here to the forums, try doing things IN GAME.
(Sorry for the long post, I wanted to add more as there are many points in this thread I agree with but, these two stood out for me today and today is bad day)
What should be encouraged is people raiding knowing they're going to be going against other combatants, hitting and swatting over a bunch of noncoms isn't impressive, and anyone who chestbeats should be mocked for doing so.
I wish there were resources that could be fought over on a mutually pre-agreed time, or admin set in advance so people can plan for it. PK is part guesswork, part ducking actual fights and part luck to be on at the right time.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
However, if you feel sad or guilty because your loyals died or are in the process of shrieking horrifically about their impending demise... you're probably too emotionally invested. They're not real, and even better, they'll come back- so don't waste your precious free time being dragged into activities (defending, etc.) that you don't want to be involved in. You're gonna burnout, you're gonna have a bad time.
Lusternia is a game. If you feel compelled to do something that you don't find enjoyable or is detrimental to your experience, you don't actually have to do it.
So don't.
I think this mindset is something that definitely needs to change, and in this instance the onus is on the players and not on the admin/mechanics.
I know I don't have to do it, sometimes I don't because I honestly don't feel like sitting there staring at my screen and feeling the way I feel when I do go to defend and end up feeling worse than if I had just left it. There's nothing worse thinking that you're going to make a difference, walk into a room -- sometimes by accident, re:Air plane and it's funky throw you around randomly - and barely have someone targetted or a command entered and you notice you're dead already. That isn't fun. Which is why I suggested things like the extra consequences - I mean, it might not change anything, but that's why we idea things or suggest changes to try, right?
I haven't even touched the argument of artifacts and skills - that's a whole different ball-game and another addition over raiding and combat that needs to be looked at, and one that has been iterated in the above thread, with mostly points of which I agree with.
(Collective "yous", here, not you, you.)
I'm generally opposed to changing mechanics for something that individuals have complete choice and control over, especially when said mechanics might detrimentally affect someone else's enjoyment of the game. Then we simply lose other players, for different reasons.
1 ) Probably end up defending alone.
2 ) Die incredibly fast
3 ) Be less happy than before.
So you just have to ignore it if you want to be happy. Unfortunately, despite all the conflict in Lusternia, being a "warrior" for your nation is the hardest to RP because most of us just don't seem that good compared to the "whales". If you can't code, you're at a disadvantage. If you can't buy all the artefacts/wonderitems you're at a disadvantage. If you're playing an outdated class (or not playing the newest best class), disadvantage. If you don't have friends who also devote time and money to the game's combat, disadvantage.
I could keep going on and on, but at the end of the day the time and cash investment required to be a "warrior" character that actually can stand a chance against characters I won't name, is enormous. On the other hand, said awesome players made that investment so why shouldn't you have to? Which is the rub, they shouldn't have had to invest that much either or even had the option to. Alas, money is the end goal and IRE is a business.