Personally, I'd prefer it if all three guild leaders have to give permission for someone to be allowed to multiclass. That's how serious I think it should be taken.
At the same time you're looking at a popularity contest again with this.
And having to become chummy with just one leader in order to allow you to multiclass isn't?
Also, I think it was said before, but I just want to reiterate: We also need a cancel-button for allowed multiclasses.
I don't mean to argue about this but just to put this into perspective. If it does become that way, mostly all guilds will develop a system of approval based on the triad, or guild as a whole. This will be based on how that guild as a whole feels about you. Now before people think I'm talking about myself, I'm not. I've played 1 class since day 1 really and I enjoy it too much. The point is that this is going to go the same way as politics I feel.
As for leaving this into player's hands, will this mean that if allowed, someone from Magnagora could multiclass a Celest guild? Or are org restrictions considered?
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As for leaving this into player's hands, will this mean that if allowed, someone from Magnagora could multiclass a Celest guild? Or are org restrictions considered?
Personally I'd like to see this stay within Org's at this moment due to the synergy of some cross org classes it'd be too chaotic and destructive and we're talking a whole new level of war and unbeatable combo's.
Why do people keep asking about cross-org multi-classing? Most of the powerful guild skills require that you have access to that org's NEXUS OF POWER, i.e. want to summon your demon as a nihilist? You need access to the Megalith. Want to crucify? Same deal. That said... sure, you can probably multi-class without the powerful abilities, but that doesn't work if your idea is to go for combat... and if it's not... why are you bothering with this in the first place?
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Why do people keep asking about cross-org multi-classing? Most of the powerful guild skills require that you have access to that org's NEXUS OF POWER, i.e. want to summon your demon as a nihilist? You need access to the Megalith. Want to crucify? Same deal. That said... sure, you can probably multi-class without the powerful abilities, but that doesn't work if your idea is to go for combat... and if it's not... why are you bothering with this in the first place?
for me, I am interested in the access to the trade different version of a few tradeskills. I don't care all about the guild skills at that point.
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I'd rather see permissions tied to ranks rather than individuals.
If the Triumvirate agree to it being allowed, they can set a minimal GR that allows members to multiclass.
Don't like this idea.
You'll end up with people being favored just so they can multiclass, while people who are actually working on guild tasks or whatever to raise their guild rank still have to sweat through tasks to get guild rank.
It should require at least 2/3 leaders in your own guild and 2/3 leaders in the guild of the class you want to multi into to be able to multiclass.
and like others have stated, it needs a kill switch
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flower, and wise." The voice shifts and expands, becoming more real. "And everything you just said
in the ritual made me feel safer. You should, too."
Or people waking up dead alts just to multiclass their friends.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'd like multiclassing just because even if I didn't swap a ton, I'd feel better about having all most of Serenwilde's skills learned. I've swapped back and forth between Spiritsingers and Moondancers at least twice and it's always a slightly awkward "I'm just kind of bored of the skills" moment. If we had multiclass, I'd still be gr19 in the Moonies.
The cost sounds kind of crazy, though, and makes me glad I've already learned the skills.
If it's going to be a gold cost (which I approve of), it should be fairly high to be able to make a dent in the gold economy. 250k? I can make that in two to three days of casual influencing. It should be accessible to many people, yes, but I think that a higher price like 500k or even 1M would still be accessible (I made my first million after two weeks of playing).
If it's going to be a gold cost (which I approve of), it should be fairly high to be able to make a dent in the gold economy. 250k? I can make that in two to three days of casual influencing. It should be accessible to many people, yes, but I think that a higher price like 500k or even 1M would still be accessible (I made my first million after two weeks of playing).
I'd love to know where you are influencing to make that much gold, I wasn't even making that much influencing in Eventru's godrealm with all its priestesses (and there was something like 200 of them there at times)
EDIT: Granted it was used as a bashing ground by certain people on a regular basis, but my point still stands to a limited extent.
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Where we're at on this. Roark has coded a lot of this already. I think I'd prefer to keep the costs to lessons, though we're looking at dropping the costs to 200/100 lessons (non-covenant/covenant). We also kind of like the term "classflex" rather than multiclass.We're also reconsidering how often someone should be able to classflex, for example, it may be better to make it much more infrequent, like once a game year (more with an artifact, of course).
I have to say that I'm getting a lot of negative feedback from those who believe allowing mixing of classes within a guild to really cut the throat of the RP of those guilds. I definitely cannot see us dissolving guilds or changing the guild system. Personally, I thought an expensive way to allow changing classes but not guilds would make it uncommon and discourage the casual class dilettantes. Any comments or feedback?
At the moment, we can ALREADY learn the skills of another guild by temp forgetting our current one, and joining the new one, and learning those. This is a function of the skillflexing system, and it comes at zero extra lesson cost for learning. It doesn't make much sense to have the new system impose a 20% (or 10, or 5) extra lesson cost when learning another guild's skills just because the person didn't change guilds before doing so - if that cost went in, everyone without the artifact would simply do it the old way, anyway, killing the entire point of spending time and effort coding a new system.
Let's just consolidate all the costs into a one-time payment, somewhere, optimally at the point of activating multiclass or something, instead of spreading it out here and there, a payment when you start multiclass, additional payments when you start learning, additional payments when you switch etc etc. That'll make it less confusing, and more upfront about exactly how much of an extra investment people are going to be paying for this function. Extra costs for something like multiclass certainly makes business sense, but let's not make the calculations something the player has to do: just put it straight out in a helpfile what the cost will be, for example, "You're going to need to invest a total of 1000 extra credits to take on a new class that you can use without switching guilds." This way, you also avoid cases where people with weak mathematical or reading comprehension skills try to get into the system and then start crying that the costs were more than they understood it to be, and demanding refunds or feeling unneccesarily frustrated.
Where we're at on this. Roark has coded a lot of this already. I think I'd prefer to keep the costs to lessons, though we're looking at dropping the costs to 200/100 lessons (non-covenant/covenant). We also kind of like the term "classflex" rather than multiclass.We're also reconsidering how often someone should be able to classflex, for example, it may be better to make it much more infrequent, like once a game year (more with an artifact, of course).
I have to say that I'm getting a lot of negative feedback from those who believe allowing mixing of classes within a guild to really cut the throat of the RP of those guilds. I definitely cannot see us dissolving guilds or changing the guild system. Personally, I thought an expensive way to allow changing classes but not guilds would make it uncommon and discourage the casual class dilettantes. Any comments or feedback?
I agree with Lerad completely, the extra lesson cost and multiple payments are unnecessary. If the goal is to discourage the casual classflexer, there are easier ways that won't punish people who take it seriously and put thought into it, but won't necessarily be up for massive extra costs. Making it only allowable once per year will do enough to discourage people from casually swapping around, especially when you consider that it will be incredibly disadvantageous (with zero extra cost, let alone huge extra costs) to classflex unless you'll be able to immediatly trans at least two new skillsets. Most players won't be able to do that, and therefore are less likely to 'casually' take upon the endeavor. Helping (through divine interaction, or just mortal peer pressure) to foster a guild environment that requires sufficient RP before allowing someone to take their class will further discourage casual floppers. Those should be enough, extra costs aren't needed for that purpose.
Mixing of classes won't do anything to destroy RP. As it was pointed out, if being able to have a different class suffocates a guild's RP, it means the RP was already lying on the floor gasping for breath. The crutch being taken away (which won't even really be a result of good classflexing mechanics) will highlight existing issues, hopefully leading to them being fixed!
On the subject, I like this quote from Aetolia's Galleus, back when they introduced their version of classflexing:
""The paradigm that an individual's role should be defined solely by a single class and what they do with it is simply one of a number of potential options for roleplay. It has, to this point, largely been the only option capable of being supported by the game's mechanics, other than the rarity of a classless individual. There is, however, nothing inherently "wrong" with the idea of holding multiple classes and having aspects of each define one's role. Under the multiclassing system, players will be able to explore roles and experiment with new mechanics as an outgrowth of their main character, rather than having to create a new character, who may not have the same political clout or experienced reputation.""
Lerad also raises an important point: If it's too expensive to classflex a new class, but someone really wants those skills, that person is more likely to create an alt or guildhop, which is less healthy for the game than a more permissive classflexing mechanic.
If allowing classflex in a guild is going to kill the RP of the guild... then don't allow it. Estarra has already mentioned that it's perfectly fine for guilds to make such a restriction on its own members. "Take on another class except Nihilist and you're going to be kicked out." As a guildmaster, you can also make official (albeit open to betrayals) agreements with other guilds not to grant permission to members of your guild. "Hey guys, I don't want any of my guild to classflex, so if anyone from my guild asks, tell them no. In return, I'll do the same for anyone you ask."
Members are still given the mechanical choice of pulling shenanigans and trying to subterfuge it, but obviously it's not going to be easy to hide when guild leaders have access to guild score and the expel button (not to mention ostracise).
Just write in the classflex helpfile in capital letters at the first line: "IF YOU TAKE ON CLASSFLEXING WITHOUT YOUR CURRENT GUILD'S PERMISSIONS, THE CONSEQUENCES YOU FACE WILL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ADMIN INTERVENTION. This means you may be liable to be outguilded if you do not classflex with your guild's permissions as well!"
See, if it's going to be a lesson cost, it might bump up the value of credits even further (since credits are the middle currency between lessons and gold). I dread to see a credit market wherein 50k is the base price.
I think Lerad was saying that if someone wants to take different (possibly better) skills, they will just guildhop or alt instead of bothering with a very costly/complicated mechanic to give partial access to another class.
I may be understanding skillflexing wrong, but isn't that the case?
For example, I now have Nekotai, Stealth and Acrobatics active. I quit my guild to join Harbingers. Before I can be inguilded, I temporarily forget all Nekotai and Stealth, then join Harbingers and skillchoice select Music and Ecology. Now, Nekotai and Stealth are inactive, and I cannot activate them (because I am not in the Nekotai guild), but I have learnt those skills without extra costs. So now, with classflex in, I can activate those skills, basically having circumvented the entire 20% extra lesson cost when learning without having the artifact... which is what other people can do as well. Right?
I was talking about Guild Score, but only because I forgot about Guild Skills. Well, same difference. It's not easy to subterfuge, so Guild leaders won't find it that difficult to enforce any classflexing policies they wish to impose. It's not a big deal with the RP angle, basically.
Oh, right, it's perfectly fine to jump guilds and learn skills. My thought was that if you want to stay in your guild and learn non-guild skills, it'd cost a premium but you get to keep your guild rank and RP, etc.
I don't think most players place a premium on guild rank, especially not above skills. As a guild leader, it's more important to me to have guild members with high ranks than it is to those players, I think. Basically, I'm interested in making it easier to stay for the guild ranks and RP than leave for the skills, rather than having members pay for the 'privilege'.
EDIT: The vast majority of our guild members sit at GR 1 and never advance, even through the advancement isn't particularly hard. At GR1 you're allowed full skill access, and most appear to be happy with that. Many of the folks who really try to advance in the ranks do so only until they hit GR3 and can contest a guild leader position, as that's the only really meaningful ability granted by ranks.
Comments
As for leaving this into player's hands, will this mean that if allowed, someone from Magnagora could multiclass a Celest guild? Or are org restrictions considered?
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If the Triumvirate agree to it being allowed, they can set a minimal GR that allows members to multiclass.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
for me, I am interested in the access to the trade different version of a few tradeskills. I don't care all about the guild skills at that point.
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
I have to say that I'm getting a lot of negative feedback from those who believe allowing mixing of classes within a guild to really cut the throat of the RP of those guilds. I definitely cannot see us dissolving guilds or changing the guild system. Personally, I thought an expensive way to allow changing classes but not guilds would make it uncommon and discourage the casual class dilettantes. Any comments or feedback?
At the moment, we can ALREADY learn the skills of another guild by temp forgetting our current one, and joining the new one, and learning those. This is a function of the skillflexing system, and it comes at zero extra lesson cost for learning. It doesn't make much sense to have the new system impose a 20% (or 10, or 5) extra lesson cost when learning another guild's skills just because the person didn't change guilds before doing so - if that cost went in, everyone without the artifact would simply do it the old way, anyway, killing the entire point of spending time and effort coding a new system.
Let's just consolidate all the costs into a one-time payment, somewhere, optimally at the point of activating multiclass or something, instead of spreading it out here and there, a payment when you start multiclass, additional payments when you start learning, additional payments when you switch etc etc. That'll make it less confusing, and more upfront about exactly how much of an extra investment people are going to be paying for this function. Extra costs for something like multiclass certainly makes business sense, but let's not make the calculations something the player has to do: just put it straight out in a helpfile what the cost will be, for example, "You're going to need to invest a total of 1000 extra credits to take on a new class that you can use without switching guilds." This way, you also avoid cases where people with weak mathematical or reading comprehension skills try to get into the system and then start crying that the costs were more than they understood it to be, and demanding refunds or feeling unneccesarily frustrated.
Mixing of classes won't do anything to destroy RP. As it was pointed out, if being able to have a different class suffocates a guild's RP, it means the RP was already lying on the floor gasping for breath. The crutch being taken away (which won't even really be a result of good classflexing mechanics) will highlight existing issues, hopefully leading to them being fixed!
Members are still given the mechanical choice of pulling shenanigans and trying to subterfuge it, but obviously it's not going to be easy to hide when guild leaders have access to guild score and the expel button (not to mention ostracise).
Just write in the classflex helpfile in capital letters at the first line: "IF YOU TAKE ON CLASSFLEXING WITHOUT YOUR CURRENT GUILD'S PERMISSIONS, THE CONSEQUENCES YOU FACE WILL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ADMIN INTERVENTION. This means you may be liable to be outguilded if you do not classflex with your guild's permissions as well!"
When Classflexing rolls around I retained all my Knight skills.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
For example, I now have Nekotai, Stealth and Acrobatics active. I quit my guild to join Harbingers. Before I can be inguilded, I temporarily forget all Nekotai and Stealth, then join Harbingers and skillchoice select Music and Ecology. Now, Nekotai and Stealth are inactive, and I cannot activate them (because I am not in the Nekotai guild), but I have learnt those skills without extra costs. So now, with classflex in, I can activate those skills, basically having circumvented the entire 20% extra lesson cost when learning without having the artifact... which is what other people can do as well. Right?
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