State of Conflict

VivetVivet , of Cows and Crystals
I'm opening this strictly because I think there's some worth in the discussion going on, if people wish, and to divert it from tweets, where it doesn't particularly belong.

That said, I've a few things to say on the matter.

We're here to have fun, and having fun means different things to different people. People shouldn't be expected to put themselves in unfun situations "for the sake of the game" - if there is a hard road to forge, the game should incentive people to that end on its own, or it should otherwise still be enjoyable to be in that position.

Lusternia has run on many of the same people for a long time now. Early on, it was easy for conflict to push itself and propel. The overall pbase was younger, had more free time, and didn't know each other so well. People enjoy playing against people they don't like more so than people they do - it's a natural inclination to want to team up with friends and stick together.

Most of us that are around still have been here for years, even if the characters we are currently playing have not. We're older now, have less free time, and are pretty well acquainted with everyone else. When a few of the old guard in a given place step back and never return again, it does have a distinct ripple effect - those remaining might find that their reason for staying where they are has gone now, and are more inclined to try something new or go somewhere else simply for a change of pace.

As well, people who are anchored where they are, and still have the friends to engage them, are a lot less likely to want to make any such changes. These people are also the ones most likely to have invested a lot of time/effort/money into the game, and have All The Things for whatever they need to get done. Things like feature creep have much less of an impact on them as it does on new players.

If those old players stop caring or thin out too much, you also generally lose access to all of their resources, leaving new players/characters having to fend more for themselves. The more things people need in order to compete competently in given situations, like bubblixes, the more difficult this becomes. New players might be misinformed on exactly what is "required" and what isn't, and with few people to guide/direct them, they'll either quit or move. If you're from another org and try to help them out, chances are you will just convince them to move over to your own org, even if you don't suggest doing so - they'll want to return the favour, after all.

I feel like all these factors and more are contributing to the current situation. I don't have any proposed solutions just yet (haven't had time for that), but I do think it might be more useful if players can come up with their own solutions before expecting admin intervention, since we already have the overhaul in progress and a lot of effort going into Newton/newbie intro, which I think are also important. Anything we might ask from the admin should conceivably be -small- and very easy to code/manage.

Otherwise, this thread might just be used to discuss what -is- the problem, exactly, since it is hard to come up with a solution if you aren't actually looking at the problem correctly.

Hopefully this should be enough to get things off the ground a bit.

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Comments

  • There are too many factors and vectors to consider anything in isolation to itself or to tie down any problem relating to "health of the game" or anything as vague as that to a single cause. The scope is also probably too huge for a single forum thread, but the idea and the concept behind starting such a discussion, even if we don't get to a perfect solution while hashing things out, is important and essential - people do need to talk about things to find out more about them.

    One place to start is to establish, or at least try to put a face on, the problem. What is the problem with "the state of conflict" in this game at the moment? Lusternia has no lack of conflict mechanics - Domoths, revolts, wildnodes are the first that would come to the mind of any PKer. Not much raiding now, but do we need raiding as a conflict mechanic when we have the others? Cultural activity and bardics/prestige are conflicts for the more RP inclined, and have just as big an affect on the POLITICS command as winning a revolt, so there's no lack of avenue for non-PKers to take part either.

    Let's go from there, what is the problem with the Lusternian conflict-scape, if it's not the lack of opportunities and contests?

  • Sorry for kicking all of that off in tweets, I've got some thoughts on this that I'll post here once I've finished working. I definitely think this discussion is needed and thanks for giving it a thread of its own.
  • I think it could be valuable to conduct some kind of survey among players to see where people get stuck on. The novice and collegium stages have been fleshed out pretty well, so I think we can at least assume problems occur after that time.

    For me, one issue has been perceived guild inactivity. Now I have learned this is due to timezones (I am EU, guild leadership is not), but I only acquired that information OOCly. This means I have been sitting there with guild tasks ready for weeks but nobody to test me. Now I realized lately I could have been more pro-active, message the guild leadership and ask to maybe fix a date and time. But can we expect new players to do this, really? And will they? I have a hunch that most will assume the guild is dead and thus either guildhop or leave the game. 

    Why is guild activity important? Because if say the entire Nekotai leadership were to collectively fall under a proverbial bus, as well as anyone else who can promote, you would end up with a guild that is truly dead. I assume the admin could step in and promote people to GR3 to contest and all, but that is undesirable imo. The Nekotai has a really nice advancement system, with a lot of attention to RP as well as being functional, but for this you need a somewhat active guild as it is group-centered. Which I think is great when there are people around. When they are not, well, it sadly kinda sucks :(

    Things started to be perceived as more active when I got high enough rank to read the guild scrolls, but I understand that due to security reasons this isn't just given to any rank. I know it is not a player solution, but some sort of activity feed that anyone could see would be nice, kinda like the website feed that posts when someone gained a level ect. If I were new, and could see through that that the GA I have never seen ingame (which saddens me, because @Janalon wrote some damn good guild stuff) simply lives in a timezone that is active when I sleep, well that would make me feel at least something is happening. Right now @Janalon would have to either do something that appears in the guild logs (which not everyone can see) or would have to post on the guild news board. And we can't really have that spammed with posts just for the sake of "look guys I am still about". 

    I'll keep it to this for now, but I'd like to hear if others have experienced the same. I have a hunch that in other less active orgs this problem may be even bigger. And I am certain that is costing us people. And Lusternia being a MUD, well I think in the end all problems trace back to lack of people. Especially if people who could do stuff cannot do it for one reason or another. 
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  • Like Chade, I'll join in this discussion later.
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    The same people are the ones fighting all the time. If they aren't around, generally nothing happens.

    It just so happens that one side of the game has a more dedicated core of these people than the other, which tends to have a ripple effect like vivet mentioned.

    I do agree though that there are too many factors that have made the game but this way but I think that feature creep, cost of entry, a lack of end goal, and no smaller scale types of conflict are the biggest culprits.

    Can talk about those guys once I'm off my phone.
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  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    edited February 2014
    In before Iasmos flags this whole topic off topic.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • MunsiaMunsia The Supreme Goddess
    All I'm saying I had to deal with Hai'Gloh for so damned long that there's no such thing as 'state of conflict' issues with current alliances. Where 1 quest turned Glomdoring from a sniveling weakened state into a powerhouse in matters of months. 

    I agree though, those that abandon their homes in these weakened times are just lame-o's who couldn't take the cut. I've seen it happen to seasoned players who were too lazy to care.
  • TurnusTurnus The Big Bad Wolf
    Going to have to say that on the topic of raids themselves, while I tended to enjoy defending against them. Back when they were a constant thing they did not by any means make the conflict better. What ended up happening was constant raids that pretty much completely wore down the defenders who at times felt obligated to go fight, and generally a loop of bitterness would come as a result.

    I would like to see some form of raiding back, definitely. But the way raiding was had a pretty bad impact on the people that couldn't have the right mindset, and at times had even me pretty annoyed at it.

    Not saying its good raiding is gone, I miss defending raids and find domoths kind of meh. But people feeling forced into it CONSTANTLY was bad. It was toned down because so long as it was possible it was going to be done constantly. That's just a fact regardless of who it is, not pointing fingers at people.

    ~--------------**--------------~

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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.

    Fact check: Glomdoring was doing well before the Hai'gloh. Quest really had nothing to do with anything long term.

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  • MunsiaMunsia The Supreme Goddess
    I disagree. Glomdoring may have been doing well internally, but conflict wise you were doing nothing and still being ground into the dirt until the Alliance that formed with you and Serenwilde which created a transfer of powerhouses from Seren, to Glomdoring, which then carried Glomdoring. The added assistance of Hai'gloh to this gave you guys what? 5ish VA's as well?
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    edited February 2014

    You can disagree, but you are factually incorrect. Shuyin and Viynain had already migrated to Glomdoring. Sidd was active. I joined just prior to the Hai'gloh ("the betrayal of Celina d'Murani lead to the Rite of hai'Gloh Zemordia"). Glom was already doing well going into the Hai'gloh, and the PKers that made up Gloms core group for all those years were already in Glom (I forget when Krellan appeared, but he didn't come from Seren).

    I don't even remember how much power the hai'gloh gave the communes but it wasn't anything close to raising a single ascendant, much less 5.

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  • MunsiaMunsia The Supreme Goddess
    edited February 2014
    Yes he did...and yes it did. It raised multiple ascendants. Clearly you've forgotten everything. The whole reason VA's now go more than 2m is because of that crap.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    edited February 2014

    edit: I actually don't know why I am debating this with you, of all people. It's off topic either way.

     

    See @Shuyin, you aren't Glom Jesus. It was the Hai'gloh all along.

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  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    Balls :(
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    And here I was thinking it was Sidd's bootstraps! :P </sarcasm>
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    edited February 2014
    Munsia said:

    Yes he did...and yes it did. It raised multiple ascendants. Clearly you've forgotten everything. The whole reason VA's now go more than 2m is because of that crap.

    Speaking as a person who was actually there, reading the logs... no, it didn't. It was like 45k power for doing it, to each Commune. It was not done enough to even raise 1 ascendant at the original cost (1m). Glom was generating huge amounts of power via other means with the people we had (domoths, villages, astral, etc etc) and had a significant amount stored up too.

    It is easy to make claims, but the facts just don't support them.

    PS: Sojiro was indeed in Glomdoring before Hai Gloh. Seren considered him a traitor for going to the enemy and fighting them.
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  • No one is powerful enough to just bust in and slay supernals! They're ridiculously OP now. We had a 20-man crew try Japhiel once and we all got stomped.
  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Marcella said:
    No one is powerful enough to just bust in and slay supernals! They're ridiculously OP now. We had a 20-man crew try Japhiel once and we all got stomped.
    Oh darn it, I mixed Supernals in with Air Lords and Fire Lords. That wasn't right, sorry. I meant the lower-level mobs.
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  • Celina said:

    You can disagree, but you are factually incorrect. Shuyin and Viynain had already migrated to Glomdoring. Sidd was active. I joined just prior to the Hai'gloh ("the betrayal of Celina d'Murani lead to the Rite of hai'Gloh Zemordia"). Glom was already doing well going into the Hai'gloh, and the PKers that made up Gloms core group for all those years were already in Glom (I forget when Krellan appeared, but he didn't come from Seren).

    I don't even remember how much power the hai'gloh gave the communes but it wasn't anything close to raising a single ascendant, much less 5.

    Also, Krellan did come from Seren. He started off in the Moondancers. I believe I kicked him out. Twice.
    Please note: I deliberately play a very flawed character. Just because he says or does something, does not mean I agree with it. He's a bit of a <censored> really
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    Laysus said:

    Celina said:

    You can disagree, but you are factually incorrect. Shuyin and Viynain had already migrated to Glomdoring. Sidd was active. I joined just prior to the Hai'gloh ("the betrayal of Celina d'Murani lead to the Rite of hai'Gloh Zemordia"). Glom was already doing well going into the Hai'gloh, and the PKers that made up Gloms core group for all those years were already in Glom (I forget when Krellan appeared, but he didn't come from Seren).

    I don't even remember how much power the hai'gloh gave the communes but it wasn't anything close to raising a single ascendant, much less 5.

    Also, Krellan did come from Seren. He started off in the Moondancers. I believe I kicked him out. Twice.


    He originated in Seren ages ago. He didn't hop ship to join Glom because of the Hai'gloh, which was the point of the argument.

     

    Also the Supernals/DLs now require like...math and stuff. You have to bring X number of people to tank the damage because the roomwide attacks decrease in damage based on the number of people present but only Y people can actually attack because too many people attacking triggers more roomwide damage. It's hard to figure that out when you're sitting in ripple + shrines + defenders trying to eat your face. And if you get the math wrong, you all die.

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  • I didn't know about that 'more people, more damage' part of it...Man, that's brutal.
  • Know what'd shake up membership in the orgs? Barring the city/commune whose member won TA from next year's seals.
    I'm Lucidian. If I don't get pedantic every so often, I might explode.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Wouldn't that just lead to orgs trading it back and forth?
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  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    Wouldn't that just lead to everyone temporarily org hopping, because locking people out of the pinnacle event of the year is a stupid idea?

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  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    Implement please. The answer to the state of conflict is to lock people out of it.
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  • Oh, it's a terrible idea. But it'd shake up org population.
    I'm Lucidian. If I don't get pedantic every so often, I might explode.
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