It's not a false equivalency, because Synkarin actually used it to defend his own Destro:
"The point is, why is it ok for your
skill to do that much damage, but it's not ok for mine? A question that
you noticeably ignored and went on an overdramatic tirade. What makes
destruction OP when it does the same (or in the case of
staffcast/nightgaze etc, less) damage than other big damage attacks? "
I don't know how many times the same thing needs to be said. Some classes really shouldn't be doing that much damage, and the staffcast/nightgaze wouldn't be so damaging if Mugwumps didn't exist (2.5s staff time, totally fair). And some classes really shouldn't be doing that much active damage, to use the Caco as an example, PASSIVELY, I give you damage based upon how many plague affs you have, which PASSIVELY, I can give 3 every 10 seconds, which means, PASSIVELY, I can be doing upwards of 2k damage every 10 seconds. There is a reason why IronChord sucks, because my song is more damaging than anything else.
The mistake with staffcast was Tuning. Why would you give an archetype that already does a lot of damage a larger opportunity to focus their staff to your weakness when no other class can really do that.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
There's this thing, I don't know if you've heard of it... it's called reality. Granted, static field could use some toning down considering how high a chance of proccing it has, I won't disagree with you there... It's also sadly easy to counter and disable in such a fashion that it becomes useless for the next hour.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Well, i won't even get started on easy counters. We'll be here all day.
Also you missed the important part about static - the stun. Room movement isn't new and doesnt bother me much. But the stun makes regrouping rougher and buys time for the enemy to kill my buddies.
I'd love to see balance racials removed, you'd have to rework warrior wounding somewhat so that it isn't outpaced by curing+basic hindering resetting a fight to zero*.
Course you'll just create new FotM classes if you do, if the racial speed stat is removed and classes compensated, you'll have new problems to deal with.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Well, i won't even get started on easy counters. We'll be here all day.
Also you missed the important part about static - the stun. Room movement isn't new and doesnt bother me much. But the stun makes regrouping rougher and buys time for the enemy to kill my buddies.
Lol reality.
Like you noticed, I agreed with you that static field could use a looking at (and I'd certainly be willing to have it looked at via envoys if envoys were still a thing). If you have a solution that will make static field a bit more viable and a way to submit it to the admins, don't hesitate to do so. I also wouldn't object to flexing to Aerochem and going to test things to get an actual rate of proc, ways to counter and duration of stun on static field.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Oh oh, do we get to pick our own skills? Dibs on trueheal.
The mistake with staffcast was Tuning. Why would you give an archetype that already does a lot of damage a larger opportunity to focus their staff to your weakness when no other class can really do that.
This much we agree on! I think we've universally made damage mashing too accessible.
I think this whole conversation is turning into a graveyard from which every complaint about every skill and archetype is being raised from the dead. We've covered destruction, trueheal, ectoplasm, mage damage, reality, and warrior wounding in one page!
PS. Everyone please stop lumping my gaze with staffcast. It's a whole second slower when min/maxed.
While I don't really agree with Elanorwen, the statement 'Everyone has their own cheese' and its equivalents conveniently ignore that certain types of 'cheese' turn out to not have as much use in the meta of Lusternian combat. Not all cheese is created equal, because the prevailing types of conflict prioritize very specific strategies and tactics. Not all skillsets work equally well in the sorts of combat seen in the game as it is now! Being basically ensured the long run win in fight means squat if you can't bring your strength to the table in the first few seconds of engagement, for instance. You'll win the hell out of arena games, but that only matters once a year.
EDIT: I agree with the tuning point of Silvanus. Make them work like druid cudgels, you get an alternate attack, but they are both fixed.
Cheese is delicious. Why is everyone so against it all of a sudden?
1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Just as not all cheese is created equal, not all fights are created equal. As has been proven, strategy, reselience, and the long term cheese win can be just as effective as the short term cheese win. It's seen less because it's harder to accomplish with a group of lower skill level because surviving and area control involve higher level strategies and awareness. This does not mean the short term is superior, because we balance at the meta. Balance should not follow the prominent pk fads.
Plus I think we're being super vague out what the cheese is and people are just mentally filling it in with whatever they feel at the time. Which, coincidentally, is most likely Glomdragoraguch meta is OP short term facesmash win, and Celewildifax isn't viable in the short term meta).
I'm confusing myself by repeating cheese so often.
I just find it to be the latest flavour complaint, the conflict was unbalanced because of reality, then it was war shrines, now it's damage. There's just always a new reason to detract from the fact the same old player-based problems persist.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Actually, it was unbalanced because of a combination of reality AND warshrines (to the point where the illuminati envoy of the time thought it was a bug how well they worked together), and people have been mentioning damage as a problem for a long time. The advent of big boosting curio damage, tuning, and alternate damage type effects have just accelerated that particular issue.
Yes, once problems are fixed, people tend to talk about new problems. Used to be that 300 room demenses were what was breaking the game, then it was dilute, now it's damage! Clearly, these flip-floppers are just whining! :P
Honestly, if you want to argue that certain people shouldn't have access to that type of damage, then that's fine.
The only point I've been making is that destruction in itself isn't any more powerful than any other damage attack out there and in some cases worse. That damage being accessible to different classes is an entirely different argument than it does too much damage which is the prevailing point that is made. It wasn't really until Celina/Silvanus brought up the 'class access' portion that people started shifting their arguments that way.
If you want to make destruction a bashing only attack like whips, sure feel free, I don't think it's going to have the intended effect you desire.
Personally, I'd be fine with Morkarion not being able to use destruction. I think he's much more useful being a hinder monster warrior than damager. Damage doesn't matter when they just walk away. (and trust me, we've had arguments over this several times, especially about using aegis vs destruction). I'll be ok with using Chaoschord, don't you worry, that .3 seconds from the eq malus won't change much.
My point is reality was nerfed, war shrines are now an extra defence tool and yet conflict hasn't changed. Rather than address actual issues it's always some mechanical reason, it's like the people who blame systems for the reason they died.
Edit: If you removed destruction I'd just nightgaze instead, bigger burst and harder DMP to stack.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Often times, systems are the reason people die. More often than not (especially before), people would die to me because I knew all the flaws in their system, and though my afflicting was potentially outpaced and outmaneuvered by good curing (which a few have), I could lock down opponents with poor systems.
War shrines were nerfed, and combat did change a whole lot. Without distort, it is harder to permascatter an enemy group who came later to the battle, leading to (slightly) more dynamic fighting. There are just so many other factors leading to the zerg battle, where you stare at each other for a long time, engage and decide most of the fight within 30 seconds. Part of that is damage. Part of that are easier short term kills, that can be surmounted by superior tactics and strategy, but often aren't.
Yes, all sides can use them to some extent, but I don't think it can be denied that certain orgs have more options and more strength with the sorts of skills that define group combat. Good group splitting skills, group movement hinders, high damage skills/more damage boosters, cheap lockdown/high danger afflictions, burst offense, and so on. Those are the kinds of skills that win out, because they're useful in the long run... and useful in the short run, which is far more prevalent and decisive for several reasons too involved to recount here, but that I'm sure all you combat-folk are aware of. If all those orgs are congregated in one faction is another question. I don't think they ALL are, but...
The actual issues aren't "xyz people just suck and are whiners instead of bootstrapping themselves into success", it's a combat and mechanical environment that discourages newcomers to the field, and support the kind of short burst tactics that relegate the majority of other non-passive techniques to the arena - on ALL sides.
My favorite part about all this is the people that complained about Fillin's overpowered staffcasting/polluting/toohighofdamage are now defending their own Destro/toohighofdamage attacks.
How quickly people can flip-flop!
I'm still trying to find that thread, but I've had little success so far.
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Wait, are you arguing that one side has fundamental mechanic advantages in combat or that players with non org specific mechanical advantages congregate to one side of conflict?
also...Fun fact: Nightgaze is buffed by athames. YOU WILL NEVER BE AS POWERFUL AS ME, PUNY KARLACH.
Wait, are you arguing that one side has fundamental mechanic advantages in combat or that players with non org specific mechanical advantages congregate to one side of conflict?
also...Fun fact: Nightgaze is buffed by athames. YOU WILL NEVER BE AS POWERFUL AS ME, PUNY KARLACH.
Apparently, it's about the same dps as Destro... at least that's what I'm getting from that post where he goes.... I'll use night gaze if they nerf destro.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Who wouldn't use their alternative. I'd just flay if I can't destro. They are just saying that destro isn't really the problem, it's merely a symptom.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I was also just making a joke. It's a long dead argument that nightgaze (and many other attacks) can keep up with destruction. Destruction just has the added benefit of being the one stop shop for damage typing.
Karlach, as with all warriors, are better served doing their warrior thing regardless of nightgaze or moonfirewhatever. He's just stubborn.
My point is reality was nerfed, war shrines are now an extra defence tool and yet conflict hasn't changed. Rather than address actual issues it's always some mechanical reason, it's like the people who blame systems for the reason they died.
Gonna disagree. Both those changes were needed, and you'll find people on both sides of the game at any point in time agreeing with that.
Wait, are you arguing that one side has fundamental mechanic advantages in combat or that players with non org specific mechanical advantages congregate to one side of conflict?
also...Fun fact: Nightgaze is buffed by athames. YOU WILL NEVER BE AS POWERFUL AS ME, PUNY KARLACH.
Apparently, it's about the same dps as Destro... at least that's what I'm getting from that post where he goes.... I'll use night gaze if they nerf destro.
I don't have a curio for it, yet. I'd also probably drop Aslaran for an even more ridiculous class for large scale group combat as I wouldn't require the balance bonus. But Nightgaze would yield similar, if sometimes better, sometimes worse, results.
Destro I have because all hail the PvE god of damage types, the fact people tend to play fire weak classes and can't be bothered getting any DMP worth a damn makes it attractive in PvP. People complain about Knight damage but when you're talking 20-21 intellect and an L2 magic rune, when it comes to large scale PvP, going the traditional Knight route is pretty effing pointless on some people, I can potentially score a tendon on first hit, or a lacerate. Or I can be content that they're stuck under web/aeon/other hinder here hell and knocking off 1/5th-1/4 of their health* along with everyone else.
People don't notice I actually mix it up between swinging and nuking. Reason you don't notice the Knight stuff? Everyone's dead before I can get their head to critical, what killed them? Damage. So what's the point in being excess hindering when I can speed up the slaying process, last I checked you don't win fights through style points of playing your class the traditional bread and butter way, you win fights by clearing your opponent off the table.
I disagree with the notion that "X class shouldn't kill through Y means" using skills in their actual class skills on the basis it's not the traditional class method. By that logic we shouldn't have inqui+judge Paladins, ur'Guard doing sacrifice kills, Templars grabbing a pair of speedy hammers and Illuminate killing and .. ok so the Sentinels really are screwed over, but anyway, the Ebonguard and Serenguard have damage abilities. Are people going seriously complaining about others making use of their abilities and getting results, because it's "not traditional"?
The issue is that the current state of combat is pushed more and more to the "just nuke it down with all the things" state of simplicity. (Why the hell do you think I go into fights with so much health?) So it's logical to maximise damage output to be part of the brawl, especially when most people are too dumb to simply leave the room.
* Should note this is without any HME blessings of sort, before people start jumping down my throat that 1/4 of their health is roughly 2.5-3k.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Comments
"The point is, why is it ok for your skill to do that much damage, but it's not ok for mine? A question that you noticeably ignored and went on an overdramatic tirade. What makes destruction OP when it does the same (or in the case of staffcast/nightgaze etc, less) damage than other big damage attacks? "
I don't know how many times the same thing needs to be said. Some classes really shouldn't be doing that much damage, and the staffcast/nightgaze wouldn't be so damaging if Mugwumps didn't exist (2.5s staff time, totally fair). And some classes really shouldn't be doing that much active damage, to use the Caco as an example, PASSIVELY, I give you damage based upon how many plague affs you have, which PASSIVELY, I can give 3 every 10 seconds, which means, PASSIVELY, I can be doing upwards of 2k damage every 10 seconds. There is a reason why IronChord sucks, because my song is more damaging than anything else.
The mistake with staffcast was Tuning. Why would you give an archetype that already does a lot of damage a larger opportunity to focus their staff to your weakness when no other class can really do that.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Also you missed the important part about static - the stun. Room movement isn't new and doesnt bother me much. But the stun makes regrouping rougher and buys time for the enemy to kill my buddies.
Lol reality.
Course you'll just create new FotM classes if you do, if the racial speed stat is removed and classes compensated, you'll have new problems to deal with.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
This much we agree on! I think we've universally made damage mashing too accessible.
I think this whole conversation is turning into a graveyard from which every complaint about every skill and archetype is being raised from the dead. We've covered destruction, trueheal, ectoplasm, mage damage, reality, and warrior wounding in one page!
PS. Everyone please stop lumping my gaze with staffcast.
It's a whole second slower when min/maxed.
Just as not all cheese is created equal, not all fights are created equal. As has been proven, strategy, reselience, and the long term cheese win can be just as effective as the short term cheese win. It's seen less because it's harder to accomplish with a group of lower skill level because surviving and area control involve higher level strategies and awareness. This does not mean the short term is superior, because we balance at the meta. Balance should not follow the prominent pk fads.
Plus I think we're being super vague out what the cheese is and people are just mentally filling it in with whatever they feel at the time. Which, coincidentally, is most likely Glomdragoraguch meta is OP short term facesmash win, and Celewildifax isn't viable in the short term meta).
I'm confusing myself by repeating cheese so often.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Yes, once problems are fixed, people tend to talk about new problems. Used to be that 300 room demenses were what was breaking the game, then it was dilute, now it's damage! Clearly, these flip-floppers are just whining! :P
Edit: If you removed destruction I'd just nightgaze instead, bigger burst and harder DMP to stack.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Pretty please?
[-O<
War shrines were nerfed, and combat did change a whole lot. Without distort, it is harder to permascatter an enemy group who came later to the battle, leading to (slightly) more dynamic fighting. There are just so many other factors leading to the zerg battle, where you stare at each other for a long time, engage and decide most of the fight within 30 seconds. Part of that is damage. Part of that are easier short term kills, that can be surmounted by superior tactics and strategy, but often aren't.
Yes, all sides can use them to some extent, but I don't think it can be denied that certain orgs have more options and more strength with the sorts of skills that define group combat. Good group splitting skills, group movement hinders, high damage skills/more damage boosters, cheap lockdown/high danger afflictions, burst offense, and so on. Those are the kinds of skills that win out, because they're useful in the long run... and useful in the short run, which is far more prevalent and decisive for several reasons too involved to recount here, but that I'm sure all you combat-folk are aware of. If all those orgs are congregated in one faction is another question. I don't think they ALL are, but...
The actual issues aren't "xyz people just suck and are whiners instead of bootstrapping themselves into success", it's a combat and mechanical environment that discourages newcomers to the field, and support the kind of short burst tactics that relegate the majority of other non-passive techniques to the arena - on ALL sides.
Signature!
Zouvi, what's that woman doing to my Dad
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Wait, are you arguing that one side has fundamental mechanic advantages in combat or that players with non org specific mechanical advantages congregate to one side of conflict?
also...Fun fact: Nightgaze is buffed by athames. YOU WILL NEVER BE AS POWERFUL AS ME, PUNY KARLACH.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I was also just making a joke. It's a long dead argument that nightgaze (and many other attacks) can keep up with destruction. Destruction just has the added benefit of being the one stop shop for damage typing.
Karlach, as with all warriors, are better served doing their warrior thing regardless of nightgaze or moonfirewhatever. He's just stubborn.
Heeeeeelp.
Shikari and Viravain are awesome, btw.
Destro I have because all hail the PvE god of damage types, the fact people tend to play fire weak classes and can't be bothered getting any DMP worth a damn makes it attractive in PvP. People complain about Knight damage but when you're talking 20-21 intellect and an L2 magic rune, when it comes to large scale PvP, going the traditional Knight route is pretty effing pointless on some people, I can potentially score a tendon on first hit, or a lacerate. Or I can be content that they're stuck under web/aeon/other hinder here hell and knocking off 1/5th-1/4 of their health* along with everyone else.
People don't notice I actually mix it up between swinging and nuking. Reason you don't notice the Knight stuff? Everyone's dead before I can get their head to critical, what killed them? Damage. So what's the point in being excess hindering when I can speed up the slaying process, last I checked you don't win fights through style points of playing your class the traditional bread and butter way, you win fights by clearing your opponent off the table.
The issue is that the current state of combat is pushed more and more to the "just nuke it down with all the things" state of simplicity. (Why the hell do you think I go into fights with so much health?) So it's logical to maximise damage output to be part of the brawl, especially when most people are too dumb to simply leave the room.
* Should note this is without any HME blessings of sort, before people start jumping down my throat that 1/4 of their health is roughly 2.5-3k.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!