If I recall, it was "Warrior attacks are completely broken, you know that, and raiding to take advantage of a bug (eg: that defenders can't even defend) is not a good thing."
If you're raiding, you should be raiding for PK fun; if you're raiding when the other side can't even do anything about it due to bugs, how fun is that?
What about some permanent area or even a separate plane that is dedicated Open PK but experience loss free with some mechanic to stimulate people to come in without causing the monster PK players to buff up even more? With some regular events that simulate king of the hill, capture the flag or the like to encourage conflict? Like a dimension of an Alice in Wonderland PK area. Giving you enjoyable non combat related artifacts, pets or whatever for 24 hours or so if you stick around and do something enjoyable there. Like a mix of open to all arena and wild nodes in one sort to speak.
If I recall, it was "Warrior attacks are completely broken, you know that, and raiding to take advantage of a bug (eg: that defenders can't even defend) is not a good thing."
If you're raiding, you should be raiding for PK fun; if you're raiding when the other side can't even do anything about it due to bugs, how fun is that?
Actually it was a 'You should know that' not that I knew that. Do note that I'm not an envoy, have REFUSED envoy positions, and don't talk to envoy's about bugs. Same issue with the supposed Dwarf quest back when. Noone told me that it was the wrong way. Someone said 'This is how you do the quest' so I did it, and then was told I was abusing it and I knew I was abusing it. You guys think I pay more attention to things than I do...
If I recall, it was "Warrior attacks are completely broken, you know that, and raiding to take advantage of a bug (eg: that defenders can't even defend) is not a good thing."
If you're raiding, you should be raiding for PK fun; if you're raiding when the other side can't even do anything about it due to bugs, how fun is that?
Actually it was a 'You should know that' not that I knew that. Do note that I'm not an envoy, have REFUSED envoy positions, and don't talk to envoy's about bugs. Same issue with the supposed Dwarf quest back when. Noone told me that it was the wrong way. Someone said 'This is how you do the quest' so I did it, and then was told I was abusing it and I knew I was abusing it. You guys think I pay more attention to things than I do...
By "you know that," I am referring to the fact that I told you. As of the moment I told you, you did indeed know that there was a pretty big bug in existence.
If I recall, it was "Warrior attacks are completely broken, you know that, and raiding to take advantage of a bug (eg: that defenders can't even defend) is not a good thing."
If you're raiding, you should be raiding for PK fun; if you're raiding when the other side can't even do anything about it due to bugs, how fun is that?
Actually it was a 'You should know that' not that I knew that. Do note that I'm not an envoy, have REFUSED envoy positions, and don't talk to envoy's about bugs. Same issue with the supposed Dwarf quest back when. Noone told me that it was the wrong way. Someone said 'This is how you do the quest' so I did it, and then was told I was abusing it and I knew I was abusing it. You guys think I pay more attention to things than I do...
By "you know that," I am referring to the fact that I told you. As of the moment I told you, you did indeed know that there was a pretty big bug in existence.
Right, mid combat...doesn't work that way hon. I'm pretty sure you're the same person who has issues with the words 'rape' as well. But go ahead, I see you going through every post and hitting disagree. Onwards with the flag war's my friends!
If I recall, it was "Warrior attacks are completely broken, you know that, and raiding to take advantage of a bug (eg: that defenders can't even defend) is not a good thing."
If you're raiding, you should be raiding for PK fun; if you're raiding when the other side can't even do anything about it due to bugs, how fun is that?
Actually it was a 'You should know that' not that I knew that. Do note that I'm not an envoy, have REFUSED envoy positions, and don't talk to envoy's about bugs. Same issue with the supposed Dwarf quest back when. Noone told me that it was the wrong way. Someone said 'This is how you do the quest' so I did it, and then was told I was abusing it and I knew I was abusing it. You guys think I pay more attention to things than I do...
By "you know that," I am referring to the fact that I told you. As of the moment I told you, you did indeed know that there was a pretty big bug in existence.
Right, mid combat...doesn't work that way hon. I'm pretty sure you're the same person who has issues with the words 'rape' as well. But go ahead, I see you going through every post and hitting disagree. Onwards with the flag war's my friends!
Back to enjoying this game Xenthos-Free.
Not every post; mostly just ones I disagree with something in them. You made it clear you're happy to use the flag, so I might as well use it back.
And yes, I have a great deal of issue with people talking about raping other people / things. It's not a good subject and should not be thrown around casually. This stance was agreed with, by the by.
So now I'm lazy because I'd rather spend that hour of my time doing something other than something I don't like? Gotcha.
Edit: I don't speak for anybody else, but I know that my time is limited, and if given a choice between spending an hour grinding out something I don't like to do, and doing something fun for an hour, I'm going to pick the fun thing.
What a terrible attitude.
It's like you've never played any game before.
I'm not gonna stomp on this Koopa-Troopa, what if the shell hits me? It's just not worth the random chance that I might stub my toe.
#yourprincessisinanothercastle
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Imperian removed experience loss and ramped up death timers.
Result:
1) A lot more people got into combat, because now you won't have to gamble with texp you grinded for hours (Let's face it. IRE exp grinding is far from being the best). Indirectly, more people got level 100 faster, and more indirectly, it was thus easier to balance 'around the top'.
2) Increasing death caps (ie if you die X times in the space of Y time, your death timer would be longer than someone who died the same amount of times but over a larger span of time) was (more or less) an effective bar to prevent people from PK-spreeing.
3) "RP"ers lost "But they made me lose textp!!!" as a defense for not engaging in combat. Rather, they were exposed as people who simply didn't want to engage in combat if it wasn't a guaranteed win (They only cared about k:d ratio, rather than actual exp loss).
+1 to no experience loss and exponential death timers.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I didn't mean to start a ruckus with my comment. I totally understand not enjoying certain aspects of the game, and think that as a player, it is your right to avoid what isn't fun to you. It's just a game and the point is to have fun. It just didn't sit right with me that you would defend if there was no xp loss, but absolutely refuse to do it otherwise.
It seems we have this false dichotomy that there are pure RPers and pure PKers or something. I've seen over the years people who couldn't care less about combat deciding to pick up rudimentary triggers and aliases just to help out a little. They consider themselves to be non-coms but I suppose the felt that it really didn't make a lot of sense that their organization is being attacked and defiled (including its members, your friends and family) and they'd just be okay with standing by and watching that happen.
Ultimately, you decide what's most enjoyable to you, since I can tell you a text game should never feel like a job or something stressful...but I don't think the issue is an xp loss one, it's a personal distaste for the system. And that's okay, but the system doesn't need to change. But perhaps attitudes do.
Forever a second rate simulation when you can't employ strategies you would against certain classes in actual combat because you can't kill beasts/ents.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
If you got "taught" and then used a bugged, exploited way to complete a
quest, even you never found out about it was not supposed to work that
way, you've still worked the quest the way it was not supposed to. At
the best case scenario, you've performed an infraction unknowingly,
un-maliciously, and get a slap on the wrist by giving up the rewards you
were not supposed to get. Ignorance, however, is not, and never will
be, a valid excuse for any kind of bug abuse or exploit. Just because
you were ignorant of the fact that it was an exploit doesn't absolve you
of the guilt of abusing it.
EXP has different values in
different games. Players familiar to games that have punishing exp
mechanics will generally be more cautious than players who aren't. In
Lusternia, exp is a pittance. The only value attached to exp is a
delusional one. If you ever feel like exp is important enough to be a
reason for not doing something (or for doing something), you are either
being tricked by an illusory and inflated value attached to it, or
you're making an excuse. The only exception to this is the demigod-titan
threshold, where you actually DO lose important things when you drop
from demigod (which is an exceedingly stupid mechanic, by the way, if you're reading this, Estarra. Exceedingly stupid).
To
keep exp loss for defending is therefore a red herring as well - the
value of exp in this game is so negligible, losing it on death is not a
consequence of any kind. Now, losing a stat point on death, THAT's a
consequence. Whether we keep exp loss or not really doesn't matter,
because exp really doesn't matter.
What is being discussed here
is whether or not the emotions associated with losing is something we
want in this game, because that's what this entire fuss has been about.
"I've lost, and I feel bad about it. Boo hoo."
Losing (and
winning) in Lusternia is specifically designed to be viscerally and
traumatically emotional. When something like an smob raid gets started,
it generates a lot of pressure on the defenders, not because of some
perceived "duty" or "loyalty" or whatever, but because of the fear of
losing. Losing an smob conflict, which is essentially the most
difficult, high-participation and penultimate player-vs-player conflict
in this game, is devastating. Note that i did not say "high stakes",
because there are no stakes involved.
The power stealing (if the shield drops) that happens is also not a
consequence, because power is as useless and as value-less as exp is. In terms of pure mechanical, numerical stakes, you actually don't lose anything when you lose.
You don't claim domoths any slower mechanically after losing your
smobs. You do not get a mechanical disadvantage to your influencing
attacks during the next village revolt. You do not lose culture points,
or prestige points, or even get a politics post about your smobs dying. There are actually no consequences for losing your smobs.
Therefore,
the entire fuss here is purely emotional. People are so upset (and so
elated) about an smob raid because of the emotional attachment tied to
winning and losing in this game. Because this is an RP game. Because
these smobs are entities of penultimate value as a role played in your
org. No mechanical change will affect this visceral impact, beyond
removing smob raids entirely. I'm personally fine with having entities
that are important to an org. Because that makes this game fun.
Afterall, the entire basis of the RP of the whole org is tied to these
smobs. However, by wanting this connection to be there, I also must
acknowledge that losing them will mean something to me on an emotional
level. You cannot ask for the admin, or other players, to somehow make
it less painful to lose an smob raid without also reducing the
role-value these smobs have for you.
Quick question. Contemplate was my favourite emote and now , because I have -some- lessons in discernment, whenever I CONTEMPLATE <target> I end up.. contemplating. Is there any way I can emote contemplate? Or am I to live a life of sussing people out instead of sussing people out? :<
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
Heavens...I go to sleep and wake up to find 67 comments about XP loss, and more than half are based on fallacies of what the original idea was even about.
It's not about being lazy....where the frick did you get that idea from..it is about providing to players, especially new non-demi ones, the incentive to get into combat and help without feeling a negative strain. Is it truly so horrible to provide players with a more positive outlook to a mechanic?
The concept of no xp loss on allied planes is a great idea for defenders and raiders alike. People always complain that there arent enough battles and combatants, then why not provide the means for people to see that it is more 'fun' and less 'pain' to get into it?
And frankly, speaking from a statistical and logical point of view, the other 4 IRE games have shown how removing XP loss in certain scenarios has been a boon and a positive aspect to the game environment that helped to enrich the combat experience as well as provide new possible experience avenues for players. It isnt 'laziness' (seriously wtf..), it is if anything providing more means of being active.
If you're going to remove experience loss, it should be removed from both raiding and defending parties. Defenders already have the benefit of less experience loss, shrines, discretionaries, (and guards at the nexus). Generating 'fun combat' = fun for both offense and defense teams.
EDIT: and expontential increases for death timer every time you die over a set amount of time. Something like 30 seconds for the first death in 30 minutes, then 1 minute, then 2, then 4. 30 minute timer resets back to full after every death.
Imperian removed experience loss and ramped up death timers.
Result:
1) A lot more people got into combat, because now you won't have to gamble with texp you grinded for hours (Let's face it. IRE exp grinding is far from being the best). Indirectly, more people got level 100 faster, and more indirectly, it was thus easier to balance 'around the top'.
2) Increasing death caps (ie if you die X times in the space of Y time, your death timer would be longer than someone who died the same amount of times but over a larger span of time) was (more or less) an effective bar to prevent people from PK-spreeing.
3) "RP"ers lost "But they made me lose textp!!!" as a defense for not engaging in combat. Rather, they were exposed as people who simply didn't want to engage in combat if it wasn't a guaranteed win (They only cared about k:d ratio, rather than actual exp loss).
+1 to no experience loss and exponential death timers.
It was mainly the server side curing that did that. Not the lack of XP loss. This can be seen by the increase before the xp loss change happened.
If you got "taught" and then used a bugged, exploited way to complete a
quest, even you never found out about it was not supposed to work that
way, you've still worked the quest the way it was not supposed to. At
the best case scenario, you've performed an infraction unknowingly,
un-maliciously, and get a slap on the wrist by giving up the rewards you
were not supposed to get. Ignorance, however, is not, and never will
be, a valid excuse for any kind of bug abuse or exploit. Just because
you were ignorant of the fact that it was an exploit doesn't absolve you
of the guilt of abusing it.
EXP has different values in
different games. Players familiar to games that have punishing exp
mechanics will generally be more cautious than players who aren't. In
Lusternia, exp is a pittance. The only value attached to exp is a
delusional one. If you ever feel like exp is important enough to be a
reason for not doing something (or for doing something), you are either
being tricked by an illusory and inflated value attached to it, or
you're making an excuse. The only exception to this is the demigod-titan
threshold, where you actually DO lose important things when you drop
from demigod (which is an exceedingly stupid mechanic, by the way, if you're reading this, Estarra. Exceedingly stupid).
To
keep exp loss for defending is therefore a red herring as well - the
value of exp in this game is so negligible, losing it on death is not a
consequence of any kind. Now, losing a stat point on death, THAT's a
consequence. Whether we keep exp loss or not really doesn't matter,
because exp really doesn't matter.
What is being discussed here
is whether or not the emotions associated with losing is something we
want in this game, because that's what this entire fuss has been about.
"I've lost, and I feel bad about it. Boo hoo."
Losing (and
winning) in Lusternia is specifically designed to be viscerally and
traumatically emotional. When something like an smob raid gets started,
it generates a lot of pressure on the defenders, not because of some
perceived "duty" or "loyalty" or whatever, but because of the fear of
losing. Losing an smob conflict, which is essentially the most
difficult, high-participation and penultimate player-vs-player conflict
in this game, is devastating. Note that i did not say "high stakes",
because there are no stakes involved.
The power stealing (if the shield drops) that happens is also not a
consequence, because power is as useless and as value-less as exp is. In terms of pure mechanical, numerical stakes, you actually don't lose anything when you lose.
You don't claim domoths any slower mechanically after losing your
smobs. You do not get a mechanical disadvantage to your influencing
attacks during the next village revolt. You do not lose culture points,
or prestige points, or even get a politics post about your smobs dying. There are actually no consequences for losing your smobs.
Therefore,
the entire fuss here is purely emotional. People are so upset (and so
elated) about an smob raid because of the emotional attachment tied to
winning and losing in this game. Because this is an RP game. Because
these smobs are entities of penultimate value as a role played in your
org. No mechanical change will affect this visceral impact, beyond
removing smob raids entirely. I'm personally fine with having entities
that are important to an org. Because that makes this game fun.
Afterall, the entire basis of the RP of the whole org is tied to these
smobs. However, by wanting this connection to be there, I also must
acknowledge that losing them will mean something to me on an emotional
level. You cannot ask for the admin, or other players, to somehow make
it less painful to lose an smob raid without also reducing the
role-value these smobs have for you.
Unless it was changed at some point, I can't properly recall, Celestines/Nihilists and maybe Wiccans losing their smobs affects their skills.
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
While I am all for making Lusternia more accessible for the casual player, we know from our own history that xp loss isn't the issue. So sure, why not..I'm down with removing xp loss because I don't care, but can we at least drop the charade that people will be more likely to defend if they are losing 0 essence instead of a measly 50k essence. I can absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, state that 50k essence is not going to cause some noticable shift in raid defense. If 10 minutes to make 50k essence (literally, it's practically nothing. You can make that much on accident) is such a struggle that ruins your enjoyment, I can't imagine horrible taking the time to actually get equipped to a degree that you can survive a defense must be. Making decent robes alone will take you far more than 10 minutes. You might even break a nail.
I don't know if "lazy" is the word, but entitled may be more correct. "I should be able to play the game however I want, and the stuff I don't like should be changed to cater to my definition of fun." PK for Lusternia and IRE in general is not for the casual player. It's just not, it's complicated and has a steep learning curve, which is why it's so enticing and entertaining over the long term. The reality is you came here, the game didn't force you to log on. If that sort of commitment is not "fun" for you, that's totally fine. That's a perfectly acceptable way to play the game. HOWEVER, the expectation should not be how to make it more fun for the people who aren't even trying. It should be "Is the barrier for entry a reasonable one?" 50k essence per death is not unreasonable. It's exceedingly reasonable, and has become more so as the game has gotten older and essence gain has become one of the easiest activies out there. If you're trying and it sucks, fine. Let's talk about it. If you're moaning over extremely minute essence loss, get a grip and find a real problem. I can kill you in 6 seconds, let's start there.
So let's find some solutions to our problems, but let's find some real solutions to real problems.
(Wiccans lose their org specific fae, for the record. It super sucks. Redcaps are a big deal.)
Comments
Signature!
If you're raiding, you should be raiding for PK fun; if you're raiding when the other side can't even do anything about it due to bugs, how fun is that?
Signature!
And yes, I have a great deal of issue with people talking about raping other people / things. It's not a good subject and should not be thrown around casually. This stance was agreed with, by the by.
It's like you've never played any game before.
I'm not gonna stomp on this Koopa-Troopa, what if the shell hits me? It's just not worth the random chance that I might stub my toe.
#yourprincessisinanothercastle
Essence being pointless is a failing of the powers system. Nothing to do with PvP
Forever a second rate simulation when you can't employ strategies you would against certain classes in actual combat because you can't kill beasts/ents.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
EXP has different values in different games. Players familiar to games that have punishing exp mechanics will generally be more cautious than players who aren't. In Lusternia, exp is a pittance. The only value attached to exp is a delusional one. If you ever feel like exp is important enough to be a reason for not doing something (or for doing something), you are either being tricked by an illusory and inflated value attached to it, or you're making an excuse. The only exception to this is the demigod-titan threshold, where you actually DO lose important things when you drop from demigod (which is an exceedingly stupid mechanic, by the way, if you're reading this, Estarra. Exceedingly stupid).
To keep exp loss for defending is therefore a red herring as well - the value of exp in this game is so negligible, losing it on death is not a consequence of any kind. Now, losing a stat point on death, THAT's a consequence. Whether we keep exp loss or not really doesn't matter, because exp really doesn't matter.
What is being discussed here is whether or not the emotions associated with losing is something we want in this game, because that's what this entire fuss has been about. "I've lost, and I feel bad about it. Boo hoo."
Losing (and winning) in Lusternia is specifically designed to be viscerally and traumatically emotional. When something like an smob raid gets started, it generates a lot of pressure on the defenders, not because of some perceived "duty" or "loyalty" or whatever, but because of the fear of losing. Losing an smob conflict, which is essentially the most difficult, high-participation and penultimate player-vs-player conflict in this game, is devastating. Note that i did not say "high stakes", because there are no stakes involved. The power stealing (if the shield drops) that happens is also not a consequence, because power is as useless and as value-less as exp is. In terms of pure mechanical, numerical stakes, you actually don't lose anything when you lose. You don't claim domoths any slower mechanically after losing your smobs. You do not get a mechanical disadvantage to your influencing attacks during the next village revolt. You do not lose culture points, or prestige points, or even get a politics post about your smobs dying. There are actually no consequences for losing your smobs.
Therefore, the entire fuss here is purely emotional. People are so upset (and so elated) about an smob raid because of the emotional attachment tied to winning and losing in this game. Because this is an RP game. Because these smobs are entities of penultimate value as a role played in your org. No mechanical change will affect this visceral impact, beyond removing smob raids entirely. I'm personally fine with having entities that are important to an org. Because that makes this game fun. Afterall, the entire basis of the RP of the whole org is tied to these smobs. However, by wanting this connection to be there, I also must acknowledge that losing them will mean something to me on an emotional level. You cannot ask for the admin, or other players, to somehow make it less painful to lose an smob raid without also reducing the role-value these smobs have for you.
Contemplate was my favourite emote and now , because I have -some- lessons in discernment, whenever I CONTEMPLATE <target> I end up.. contemplating.
Is there any way I can emote contemplate? Or am I to live a life of sussing people out instead of sussing people out? :<
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
It's not about being lazy....where the frick did you get that idea from..it is about providing to players, especially new non-demi ones, the incentive to get into combat and help without feeling a negative strain. Is it truly so horrible to provide players with a more positive outlook to a mechanic?
The concept of no xp loss on allied planes is a great idea for defenders and raiders alike. People always complain that there arent enough battles and combatants, then why not provide the means for people to see that it is more 'fun' and less 'pain' to get into it?
And frankly, speaking from a statistical and logical point of view, the other 4 IRE games have shown how removing XP loss in certain scenarios has been a boon and a positive aspect to the game environment that helped to enrich the combat experience as well as provide new possible experience avenues for players. It isnt 'laziness' (seriously wtf..), it is if anything providing more means of being active.
Signature!
While I am all for making Lusternia more accessible for the casual player, we know from our own history that xp loss isn't the issue. So sure, why not..I'm down with removing xp loss because I don't care, but can we at least drop the charade that people will be more likely to defend if they are losing 0 essence instead of a measly 50k essence. I can absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt, state that 50k essence is not going to cause some noticable shift in raid defense. If 10 minutes to make 50k essence (literally, it's practically nothing. You can make that much on accident) is such a struggle that ruins your enjoyment, I can't imagine horrible taking the time to actually get equipped to a degree that you can survive a defense must be. Making decent robes alone will take you far more than 10 minutes. You might even break a nail.
I don't know if "lazy" is the word, but entitled may be more correct. "I should be able to play the game however I want, and the stuff I don't like should be changed to cater to my definition of fun." PK for Lusternia and IRE in general is not for the casual player. It's just not, it's complicated and has a steep learning curve, which is why it's so enticing and entertaining over the long term. The reality is you came here, the game didn't force you to log on. If that sort of commitment is not "fun" for you, that's totally fine. That's a perfectly acceptable way to play the game. HOWEVER, the expectation should not be how to make it more fun for the people who aren't even trying. It should be "Is the barrier for entry a reasonable one?" 50k essence per death is not unreasonable. It's exceedingly reasonable, and has become more so as the game has gotten older and essence gain has become one of the easiest activies out there. If you're trying and it sucks, fine. Let's talk about it. If you're moaning over extremely minute essence loss, get a grip and find a real problem. I can kill you in 6 seconds, let's start there.
So let's find some solutions to our problems, but let's find some real solutions to real problems.
(Wiccans lose their org specific fae, for the record. It super sucks. Redcaps are a big deal.)