Is the fink/gnome Newton Caverns intro fun, engaging, and key to a prospective newbie's experience?

Maligorn

Shaddus

Having just made a newbie recently, I'm saying no. At no point was it explained to me why I'm doing the things I'm doing and to what end. I realise IRE Corporate wanted people to get into the game quicker, but the old intro was much better.

Also, an END JOURNEY would be amazing if there isn't already.

Maligorn

With the general Overhaul, we are seeking to improve novice retention by simplifying combat to make it more palatable to newbies, and rein in our out-of-control buff situation.

What I wonder is if there is room for improvement. For me, the Newton Cavern experience is the absolute worst. In my eyes, Lusternia's appeal is its lore, first and foremostly, and its nonviolent option of Influence and the ego vital, among many other things.

But the Newton intro does not cover the lore at all. It covers the tiniest facet of the gnome versus fink animosity while providing extremely trite instructions and adventuring. It includes quests that are endeavours that no true newbie is going to attempt, and is a poor representation of questing in Lusternia. It is almighty in its irrelevance to the future of the new character's journey into Lusternia. It doesn't talk about the volumes of lore this game has -- the Elder/Vernal/Taint wars, the cities and their rich histories...it's nothing.

It's flimsy, childish and mind-numbingly boring to me. But I have heard rumours that @Estarra has had his hands tied by higher-ups in IRE. I was wondering if Esty would mind confirming that before we get into a big discussion about this only to find it is futile.

My suggestion would be to reintroduce the old introduction -- the one that places the newbie in Shallamar during Project Cosmic Hope. Share your thoughts, y'all!

Daraius

I've been pretty vocal about this in other topics and not really into opening that can of worms again. Just gonna leave my vote and bow out.

Portius

There's no player choice and no significant narrative. It's kind of like watching a movie with no idea why anything matters and without a particularly engaging plot. The bothers me because it sets you on parts of the honor quests without any explanation, and those quests are the best part of Newton. They're easy to miss, but if you hit them they're pretty good. Hook in the narrative and lore parts that the intro currently skims over and you have a pretty big improvement with minimal effort.

The shadow fight is good too, because it's nicely symbolic and fits in well with Lusternian fate themes. Keep that.

If there's any chance of a revamp, I'd focus on refluffing. I'd set up something like this:

1. You've just gone through the portal of fate! Exposition explaining why that is important goes here.
2. You have to pass a challenge, and it's a dangerous one. Reminder that according to the histories not everyone survives going through the portal.
3. The challenge is forcing your shadow, which is clearly a symbol of your fate, submit to your will. To do this, you pass three sections. Greet one of the Fates to activate her section. Let people do them in any order.
4. In one section, you bargain with some sort of being to get a tool you need to dominate your shadow. This has all of the equipment and buying/selling parts of the tutorial.
5. In another, you have to influence a seer/scholar to teach you what you need to know to dominate your shadow. This covers influencing, vitals, and has some general lore info in the lesson. Probably include learning skills in here, too.
6. In the last section, you have to find a hidden tool. Basic questing type things go in here.
7. Fight the shadow, get the journal.
8. Pick city/guild/whatever

That gives people choice and clear narrative, while also breaking it up into sections for people to focus on one at a time. Plus, it's basically an honor quest so it serves as an intro to those, too. It doesn't drop people in the normal game right away, but I'm not convinced that's a good thing to do anyway. Esty's hands are probably tied on that, though.

Enyalida

The intro occupies an area that's availble during the very first parts of game play, but is hardly the 'real game' either.

Marcella

Absolutely fucking not.

Enyalida

Last I knew, it was also plagued with problems. Stuff like not letting novices who had quick changes of heart regarding org choice  change their org (nation or guild) until the very end of the intro. A lot of stuff is flat disabled, making it hard to troubleshoot as a guide/teacher.

Saran

The newton part kinda works in how general it is and how it doesn't really tie into anything too heavily outside of itself. 

But I think it would be nicer if there was like... org based versions with a quest designed to bring the newbies into the org rp.

I suppose it would be an extension of the collegiums, perhaps a small collection of zones (maybe one for each org at least) that you're sent through to complete some big quest for your organisation, perhaps even highlighting the ideological and thematic differences between the orgs?

Everiine

The last few iterations of the "new" intro are, frankly, awful. We've said it pretty consistently. With the old intro, 10-15 minutes of quick introductory material and BAM, you were in the game.

Now, you spend 1-2 hours sorta muddling through sorta being in the game but sorta being in a novice intro but sorta doing important things but sorta not. It's a joke.

But, as has been mentioned, this is a corporate mandate, and our admin can't do anything about it. They can tweak things a little bit, but we're stuck with the meat and bones of the crappy thing.

EDIT: I voted "somewhat fun" because I understood the original question to be JUST about the Newton Caverns part. I think the Caverns themselves are kinda fun. It's the system around them that blows.

Isluna

Having ran through it when it first came out, just because.. (I hate alting with a passion) I thought it was alright, it didn't "teach" anything to me. I mean before you had to 'wear" the things, probe them and learn to use the key commands. Sure hand holding, but some need it. Some don't. I like how the other games have the speed up option, or did. I hardly have time any more to be here, let alone another IRE game, but I think that would be a nice balanced option.

Saran

I'm confused, what is the mandate anyway? Cause like... Aetolia has their old intro with the only difference being more hints and the choice to kill the fisherwoman and steal her boat is gone. 

Everiine

Saran said:

I'm confused, what is the mandate anyway? Cause like... Aetolia has their old intro with the only difference being more hints and the choice to kill the fisherwoman and steal her boat is gone. 

When we complained about the way the new intro was done, we were explicitly told that they couldn't change it because it was an IRE order.

Qistrel

If we could choose sides (yeah I'm biased towards finks) or if there was a way to skip it I'd be much happier.

Tarkenton

Regarding the org-specific newbie intro quest, I'm quite willing to bet that players from each org would be more than willing to write quest content to make that a reality and take the burden off of the admin.  Just saying, there's obviously a fairly deep creative well present in the player base if the Bardics/stage/libraries are any sort of an indicator.

Saran

There's kinda two levels as I see it...

One level is that there is just an org specific quest/zone. 

As an example, Serenwilde has you go out an hunt various creatures, bringing them together to perform a ritual to help the forest and the like.

The other level dials that up significantly and introduces a level of interactivity between the newbie zones, the primary concern here being that you'll mostly likely have people enemying novices for it...

So Celest offers two options, you can go out and kill non-believers to cleanse their bodies with the light or you can proselytize them with influencing (would need to be lowered to cr1). 

For even more fun you can make the target mobs make comments about their org while being influenced or attacked and then acquiescing when fully influenced or dying. 

So like, the group of Dracnari might respond to proselytising by scoffing at the light and complaining about how it would restrict their freedoms (while taking a nice long drag from their hookah), maybe ending with some generic comment about how their lives were hollow and empty but now you've convinced them there is a greater purpose for them with the light.

Meanwhile, hunting down the Viscanti group might lead to some disparaging comments about the light but perhaps they thank you or something when cleansed as part of the quest?

Throughout this would be little speeches on the other orgs and how they suck compared to your org.

Eritheyl

I really don't think that the intro needs to be split fifty different ways to appeal to org flavour - the collegiums already handle this, and they do it well. Many glaring problems with New-Newton have already been stated., but just to add one or two more and bring my own views in:

1) Choosing race as one of the last steps - it's mind-boggling to me that one of the most character-defining choices is placed almost dead last. No, real novices are not going to be wholeheartedly embracing their race and roleplaying their way through Newton, but that's not the point. The point (as it ties into my second point) is rushing needlessly through things that should be given a great deal more significance. We give them MXP links and speedwalking to do literally everything the tutorial with zero effort, then say, 'Oh by the way you probably don't wanna stay human, here pick one of these and keep going'.

2) Choosing guild as one of the last steps - everything said above applies to this, as well. We give novices a chance to read up on the orgs from the get-go (with one or three terrible taglines included), then thrust them into a world of speedwalking and instant gratification with clunky sword in hand. Where's the harm in moving guild placement back to be coupled with org placement? Let them get a feel for the character they're raising by actually -developing- the character in some small ways that actually impact their progression through the tutorial. Getting to pop fink heads with a minorsecond or cast blast-ing them to ash seems as though it would be more fun and engaging than swinging a slow-ass claymore ad nauseam. It's just awkward.

3) Missing vital explanations - the basics of shopping, utilising a backpack, INFO HERE and all of that need to make a comeback. The introduction is supposed to introduce, it's supposed to teach. You learn next to nothing in its current iteration, especially if you're using the web client/MXP enabled clients where the temptation to let your eyes glaze over and just click the links runs strong. Sure, you walk your way through a few quests, but there's next to no gumption necessary. Just do everything you're told, and it works out. In addition to being completely boring, it does a poor job of engaging (there's that buzzword again) players and 'nudging' them to figure things out, as opposed to just being flat-out told and instantly moving on to the next bullet point because 'gotta go fast to real game'.

4) more after work, I'm not quite through yet.

Also: I would wholeheartedly support shifting back to the Shallamar days - it's a place with significance, centered around events that a player will most definitely hear about again as they venture out into the real game. Newton, while a great after-intro zone for bashing and the like, is not memorable. It is not significant. There are no fond memories of Newton, or wonderment at the things and people seen in Newton after the fact.

Maligorn

Well -- whatever the case is, I urge you all to share your thoughts here comprehensively in this thread. Maybe @Estarra can use it in a plea against corporate.

Kol

With the Collegium system in place, having the intro seems to be a little pointless. Instead of wandering through Finkland chasing down a shadow because some lady with scissors told you to, starting off with something setting-defining would be nice. Let us handle the mechanical, nitty-gritty details before we start the game (race/guild/city), then focus on teaching the basics while working within our chosen org. I realize it'd be a massive project (and one that there probably isn't time for, with an overhaul in the works), but the tutorial that would have worked best for me would be something like this:

0) Select gender/race/class/city/age. All the 'building' stuff happens outside of the game like I'm fairly certain it already does.

1) Based on city/class selection, dump you into a room where some guild NPC is, who gives you a few vials/low level equipment and walks you through using it. Almost like your first day/orientation kind of deal - though I would much rather get to interact with a guildmate for supplies and direction, when there are times that nobody's online and a newbie joins, it's kind of a pain for someone not in the guild to do all this, and they might not be able to figure it all out on their own. Here's where you'd have the 'sip health', 'sip mana', etc. They'd also give a short talk (like, 4 emotes tops) about what it means to be in the guild/what is expected.

2) Move on from guild tutor after learning some basics to your city NPC. They'd drive home city culture stuff, explain the city's views on the conflict axises and maybe give some history of the city. Maybe a few more supplies here (an appropriate outfit for the city, etc.), bring up some other key things - influencing, planes, anything else that might be useful to have a general idea of - then send them on their way. 

By this point, they've moved maybe 2-3 rooms total (w, up so they get used to all the possible ways to move, whatever), and spent like 10 minutes having an NPC talk at them. And I feel like I'd 'get' things better if it was all condensed and focused on 'here's what you need to be useful/not get yelled at/not die', and it means you don't end up in a situation where the newbie's not sure what they should be doing after the tutorial ends. To further give them direction, go on to three:

3) Give them a quest/small task to do in Newton. This is where you 'send them on their way' - even if it's just 'prove you heard all that and go kill me a gnome', having them go do something a little more difficult/vague should help ease them into the general atmosphere of the game, plus nobody wants to sit and have lore spouted at them for too long. It kind of goes one ear and out the other, really...

Have the area they exit here from lead to the Collegium of the city, then let 'em loose to do Collegium tasks. They'll learn sipping health/wearing clothes/pack use in the first area, they'll learn movement getting to the second area, they'll learn about quests/giving things to npcs with the final task.

tl;dr: Link tutorial with Collegium so you can get some city-specific stuff mixed in and help immerse them in meaningful environmental details ASAP instead of forcing a jog through Newton.

/2 cents

Dys

I was answering for Newton as a zone for new players. It was what got me hooked when I started. I love the Gnome Fink war and the quests. The hints are a great primer for many types of quest later on.

Shallamar -> Newton -> collegium suited me as otherwise I'd have got overwhelmed by options and prefer figuring things out rather than asking people.

Arcanis

I once posted about this, how the intro was not engaging nor did it give respect to the best aspect of lusternia: It's lore and RP. Like I once suggested, I would prefer it remade into a more storyline version describing the soulless, what happened with the mortal races, and where we are today (the basin of life). I think I was writing a quest story for an intro version once, maybe I can get back to fleshing it out.

Vionne

I ran through the intro on an alt and I was a bit stunned at how little I learned from it. I was planning to play a newbie instead of my old character because I knew I didn't remember much from when I was last active, but it didn't even set me up with a prompt, it just told me to go forth and fight but I had no idea when I was taking damage -- I would have died if it weren't for one of the fates interposing herself, I guess, but even though I had healing potions in my inventory when I came out, I would have been completely lost if it weren't for someone in the city  helping me out. 

It's less engaging AND less informative than it used to be -- if the goal is to get people into the game without bogging them down with things, it'd be faster and less annoying to just have a room where they have to do four things for demonstration, then config the prompt, get their org and skills, then get into the interaction part of the game, and the colligeum quests. 

As it stands I just went back to my old alt because at least then I have more options and will get pretty much the same level of help... 

Qistrel

I wanted to make a few more alts to try out more guilds, but the thought of doing the entire intro sequence again for each one made me not. Five times was faaar too much.

Lavinya

I realise that there are links from Newton to the rest of the game lore, but it really is relatively quite obscure. More relevant would be a greater explanation of the Soulless threat and what the portal of fate actually is for. When I was a newbie, I didn't even explore newtons because I was more interested in roleplaying with people than running off to explore (Just look at my achievements!) and it seemed to be a place with no real relevance. I realise now that there is a link of course, but I didn't know what it was for years.

The lore of Lusternia is what ultimately turned me into an addict. I love the history. A little more of it shining through in the intro would be amazing. Instill that sense of urgency to prevent the Soulless from destroying life as we know it, the desperation of entering the portal to try and find safety.

I agree that choosing race/guild etc should not be the final afterthought. I'd rather see the game start with a bit of background to the world (as I mentioned above), then have them enter the portal, where once they do they are prompted by the fates to 'remember' their age, race, org, guild etc (just like the old intro). Then have some sort of instruction from the fates to prepare them for the world beyond, given the hazy memories from the portal - simple commands like the old had - wearing clothes, using backpack, reading journal, even the old flame sigil was helpful. Lessons, teleport, and PLEASE add back in a hint to not only config the map but also the prompt. It's a huge glaring ommission that makes life hard from the start.

Newton's as an area is not so bad, have the fates even direct the new player there as a training ground to renew their weakened body from the portal trip or something.

PLEASE add back in a way to skip the intro for old players.

I don't think the entire intro needs to be completely redone and Newton's removed, but it could be done in a much better way to make the new player connected from the outset, beyond being in the 'real' game.

Enadonella

As someone who was completely new to the whole online gaming scene. Newton had no relevance to anything else I have ever experienced in game. So I did Newton, and then I felt like I started playing a whole new game once I hit Serenwilde. I imagine it would be the same for any org. 

Want to make Newton better? Open it up to the entire player base so the nooblings aren't so isolated and are more inclined to stay there, or just, you know, blow it up. I joke. Sort of.

Saran

@Lavinya for some reason all I can think of is teaching them ih and greet. Then maybe put the newbie into a room with a group of npc's that they can use mxp (or whatever it is that lets you click lines on the screen to say them) to ask them questions about the org.

They'd all have pretty much the same set of questions, who are you? what are you about? what do you believe? sort of things.

Then when they make their choice, they could be placed in another room with representatives of the guilds (perhaps encouraged to "look" here to see an appropriately themed room), a similar ability to talk to the could be offered and if they don't like what they hear they could go back to the orgs to look at other options. 

Once all that is done, they could move to a room where they select their race perhaps with the representatives that they've spoken to accompanying them to talk about appropriate and inappropriate races (guild rep), and perhaps to comment on the races (org rep).

So like... they might ask about faeling, and the guild rep can be all like "Oh, yeah we really like them" and the org rep says something about "Oh, they're an unusual case among the races. They are the result of blah blah blah"

Maybe it can have a giant mirror for them to look into to decide their race, when they first look the image is hazy and constantly shifting between all the different races until they concentrate on one.

or something... >_>

Everiine

Saran said:

@Lavinya for some reason all I can think of is teaching them ih and greet. Then maybe put the newbie into a room with a group of npc's that they can use mxp (or whatever it is that lets you click lines on the screen to say them) to ask them questions about the org.

They'd all have pretty much the same set of questions, who are you? what are you about? what do you believe? sort of things.

Then when they make their choice, they could be placed in another room with representatives of the guilds (perhaps encouraged to "look" here to see an appropriately themed room), a similar ability to talk to the could be offered and if they don't like what they hear they could go back to the orgs to look at other options. 

Once all that is done, they could move to a room where they select their race perhaps with the representatives that they've spoken to accompanying them to talk about appropriate and inappropriate races (guild rep), and perhaps to comment on the races (org rep).

So like... they might ask about faeling, and the guild rep can be all like "Oh, yeah we really like them" and the org rep says something about "Oh, they're an unusual case among the races. They are the result of blah blah blah"

Maybe it can have a giant mirror for them to look into to decide their race, when they first look the image is hazy and constantly shifting between all the different races until they concentrate on one.

or something... >_>

That sounds even more tedious than what we already have, and exactly contrary to the corporate mandate--that they should learn all this stuff being being in the game and interacting with -players- from the beginning.

Saran

Everiine said:

Saran said:

@Lavinya for some reason all I can think of is teaching them ih and greet. Then maybe put the newbie into a room with a group of npc's that they can use mxp (or whatever it is that lets you click lines on the screen to say them) to ask them questions about the org.

They'd all have pretty much the same set of questions, who are you? what are you about? what do you believe? sort of things.

Then when they make their choice, they could be placed in another room with representatives of the guilds (perhaps encouraged to "look" here to see an appropriately themed room), a similar ability to talk to the could be offered and if they don't like what they hear they could go back to the orgs to look at other options. 

Once all that is done, they could move to a room where they select their race perhaps with the representatives that they've spoken to accompanying them to talk about appropriate and inappropriate races (guild rep), and perhaps to comment on the races (org rep).

So like... they might ask about faeling, and the guild rep can be all like "Oh, yeah we really like them" and the org rep says something about "Oh, they're an unusual case among the races. They are the result of blah blah blah"

Maybe it can have a giant mirror for them to look into to decide their race, when they first look the image is hazy and constantly shifting between all the different races until they concentrate on one.

or something... >_>

That sounds even more tedious than what we already have, and exactly contrary to the corporate mandate--that they should learn all this stuff being being in the game and interacting with -players- from the beginning.

I imagined it would be entirely optional, so newbies who want to know more about the orgs can get a bit of information first, while people with experience would be able to just pick their org, guild, and race without interruption.

Rialorm

I'd much rather have an intro that focusses on the backstory plus gives you an impression of each org. After that, you pick your org, class ect. I think Newton could stay as an optional newbie levelling area. But don't have it mandatory and so early on.

Qistrel

It teaches all the important mechanical stuff (I think, I played Achaea for years before Lusty even came out). The problem is that the storyline does not really matter in the grand scheme of things. (I love the gnome/fink conflict, it is just not something central to Lusternia.)

If Newton was replaced by an area that had....a taurian army fighting against the encroaching undead, and the taurians were conflicted about whether to destroy the undead completely, or attempt to power up by wresting the secrets of undeath from them, it would bring some of Lusternia's themes right to the front from the very beginning. You could even keep all the shadow-chasing stuff.

Aerotan

But that would make Taurians relevant.