It teaches all the important mechanical stuff (I think, I played Achaea for years before Lusty even came out). The problem is that the storyline does not really matter in the grand scheme of things. (I love the gnome/fink conflict, it is just not something central to Lusternia.)
If Newton was replaced by an area that had....a taurian army fighting against the encroaching undead, and the taurians were conflicted about whether to destroy the undead completely, or attempt to power up by wresting the secrets of undeath from them, it would bring some of Lusternia's themes right to the front from the very beginning. You could even keep all the shadow-chasing stuff.
My only issue with the army suggestion is that it might reinforce this idea of light vs dark right at the beginning when impressions are forming? Which is hard to get out of people sometimes.
I think we should leave out finks, taurians and whatever else in the tutorial, and focus on the main story of Lusternia: the Soulless are going to eventually eat the multiverse, and we're here delaying them.
Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."
-
With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
I've tossed a lot of ideas about in my head, but I feel that part of the problem is a combination of two factors.
1. IRE mandates that the introduction must happen in a "live" environment. That is, that the rooms of the introduction all happen in an area where players can interact with other players.
2. Newton, the area where the intro happens, is quite irrelevant to Lusternia as a whole. While the Fink/Gnome war is interesting, it does not reflect at all upon Lusternia as a whole.
If so, the question I'm left pondering about is "Why Newton"? While the caverns are a safe haven for youngsters, with the Grace of Innocence youngsters shouldn't have much to worry about outside of Newton. So why not set it outside Newton? If so, you already open up a lot of opportunities.
Actually, @Estarra would you mind sharing exactly what the newbie intro mandate entails? Knowing which limits there are for the intro would help a lot in providing structured advice on it.
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
Sorry, but no. This intro was totally confusing and did NOT teach me the mechanics.
If I hadn't known IRE already, I would have likely gotten stuck several times. Some hints are weird and REMEMBER did not always help me either.
And as a matter of fact I DID get stuck. Some Fate mob was supposed to show up and didn't, no hint on what to do etc. I mobtalked and someone helped me (thankfully!) and ported the mob in. Lucky me.
But honestly, that intro didn't teach me anything about Lusternia, nor did it give me a feel for my character or the world. It didn't teach me basic, important mechanics either (like referring to items by number. The last intro did that, and that was good!). I think the idea of fighting your own shadow is good, but it's not presented well. It wasn't until after the entire thing that I realized what was supposed to have gone on (or I think I do. I'm still not sure). -.-
EDIT: Oh hey, I just necro'd the thread.. Sorry, guys, I really didn't notice!
I like Newton. I don't really care for the automated walk through part. The part that's supposed to be teaching you how to do things I guess. It felt a bit too hand-holdy at the same time as not being helpful enough, if that makes sense.
But, as far as the Newton area and the Newton quests, I like them. I like having an area set aside where you can explore and kill things and quest and so on without being bothered by some high level someone who's decided they want to kill a bunch of folks who can't fight back or mess up quests by killing quest mobs or what have you. And I managed to figure out both sides of the Fink/Gnome quest and I enjoyed that too.
I like Newton. I don't really care for the automated walk through part. The part that's supposed to be teaching you how to do things I guess. It felt a bit too hand-holdy at the same time as not being helpful enough, if that makes sense.
But, as far as the Newton area and the Newton quests, I like them. I like having an area set aside where you can explore and kill things and quest and so on without being bothered by some high level someone who's decided they want to kill a bunch of folks who can't fight back or mess up quests by killing quest mobs or what have you. And I managed to figure out both sides of the Fink/Gnome quest and I enjoyed that too.
The main reason for the topic is and will always be the intro. As such not liking the automated walk through part (the intro) should probably give it a vote that isn't yes in any fashion. I feel like practically nobody likes this new intro.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I actually liked the tutorial when I did it, but somehow something must not have been clear during it, because I missed a whole section of tutorial quests. The one thing I didn't like about it, is that is didn't teach me anything about Lusternia's lore or the world I had jumped into. I felt pretty clueless when I started in Glomdoring. I strongly feel like it would also be useful for it to teach players how to deal with quests that don't have the text pop up to choose an answer. There are a bunch of quests in Lusternia that don't have that. Also, looking in rooms for interactions, because I thought from the tutorial that objects will show as objects in the HTML5 window when they interactable, but the Stewartsville Murder Mystery taught me pretty quickly that was wrong.
I like Newton. I don't really care for the automated walk through part. The part that's supposed to be teaching you how to do things I guess. It felt a bit too hand-holdy at the same time as not being helpful enough, if that makes sense.
But, as far as the Newton area and the Newton quests, I like them. I like having an area set aside where you can explore and kill things and quest and so on without being bothered by some high level someone who's decided they want to kill a bunch of folks who can't fight back or mess up quests by killing quest mobs or what have you. And I managed to figure out both sides of the Fink/Gnome quest and I enjoyed that too.
The main reason for the topic is and will always be the intro. As such not liking the automated walk through part (the intro) should probably give it a vote that isn't yes in any fashion. I feel like practically nobody likes this new intro.
Well a lot of the comments seemed to include the Caverns aside from automated intro part. So, I wanted to be clear.
With the general Overhaul, we are seeking to improve novice retention by simplifying combat to make it more palatable to newbies, and rein in our out-of-control buff situation.
What I wonder is if there is room for improvement. For me, the Newton Cavern experience is the absolute worst. In my eyes, Lusternia's appeal is its lore, first and foremostly, and its nonviolent option of Influence and the ego vital, among many other things.
But the Newton intro does not cover the lore at all. It covers the tiniest facet of the gnome versus fink animosity while providing extremely trite instructions and adventuring. It includes quests that are endeavours that no true newbie is going to attempt, and is a poor representation of questing in Lusternia. It is almighty in its irrelevance to the future of the new character's journey into Lusternia. It doesn't talk about the volumes of lore this game has -- the Elder/Vernal/Taint wars, the cities and their rich histories...it's nothing.
Hi true newbie here and I attempted the quests...
I will grant that they were lackluster lore-wise however they had many elements of questing to them.
That is why my vote os somewhat fun. There was even a bit where I somehow lost a quest item after learning It was not yet needed and had to start it all over. Quests are not meant to be easy things to figure out.
The lack of any real lore element though was disheartening.
edit: Well true newbie to Lusternia. Not to MUDS or IRE
Well, before I start reading everyone's comments, I'll start by saying that I found the Newton Caverns entertaining and a good start for those new to MUD and IRE games (when I first joined Lusternia). For the Newton Cavern honour quests, you need to talk to the NPCs and understand what exactly they need. It sort of teaches the fundamentals of MUD games and how to interact with the denizens of Lusternia. The only problem I see with the quests is that they are far to ambiguous for newbies. People these days like to be spoon-fed of everything.
There's no incentive to work further into the storyline of the Finks and Gnomes. Instantly you're surrounded by them, so you figure you'll kill a few and see what happens. A few turns into a dozen, and dozens turn into.. Well, you get the idea. After figuring out you can turn them into their opposing sides, you are rewarded with a small amount of Gold, and that's that. I spent a bit of time looking around the Newton caverns and couldn't stand it, so I left and just gathered Pilgrims instead, a much more rewarding and experience boosting experience.
I've recently played through the Achaea tutorial a few times and I kinda like theirs, it could do with some fine tuning but it's not terrible.
The gist is that you've been kidnapped, you escape (learning movement, unlock/open, sipping, punching) and are dropped near to one of their newbie zones by some named npcs from your org.
Following that quest you get taken to the guy the kidnappers blamed, and get your butt kicked by him. (Teaches you writhe I think)
You then need to get level ten to progress, which isn't too difficult and the other tasks around the place show you how to get there pretty easily. (leveling/bashing quests)
Once you're at level ten you can face the baddy, and the bigger baddy behind them. I liked that this has a pass as well as fail mechanic if you don't manage to actually beat them.
Then you get summoned by the named npcs to your org where you do some wander around type tasks. (Ratting, actual questing, butterfly catching/gold generation, and learning from tutors)
Once you're done with those tasks you go on a small quest into an instance of a higher level zone. Where you need to interact with a few npcs and experience trackers (running away, interacting with objects in the world)
With all of that done, you go back and your completion is announced to the city with a title being granted to mark it.
Depending on the city (they're transitioning things) you may then need to complete some city based tasks which teach you a few more things (Eleusis gets you to go to the forests for example among other things) and also introduces you to each of the houses/guilds that belong there. (Which is also when you chose your house because yay separation of house and skills)
This has a kinda nice pacing, the only glaring issue I found was that with the current transitioning it doesn't seem like everything is quite settled on the players side. As a result I couldn't reliably find any information about what skills to learn which is something that could be resolved easily.
Haven't really played through the new intro in a while but how does it match up to that experience?
The one thing I have always liked about Lusternia, as compared to other IREs, is that the commonality of the intro actually made sense for the world. The Portal of Fate. Your old, past self is stripped away, and your new self, bright and shiny, gets to go to do... whatever. It's the starting point of every player's background. There's an epicness to it, and it manages to be both amazingly specific and generic at the same time.
In contrast to something like Aetolia's (old, at least. Haven't tried in a while) "you were kidnapped by slavers and escape." So... seriously? Every player in that game, from the highest city leader, to the greatest, most artied combatant, was at some point kidnapped by slavers, and escaped. I imagine that got swept under the rug, a lot. Likewise with Achaea's (new? were you always kidnapped?) intro. I vaguely remember there was one that started in media res with you burning in some magical flame. That always seemed neat.
Lusty's new intro kinda downplays that a bit. And then doesn't play up anything except speedwalk and greet. I can't totally comment on it, since I am nowhere near a true Lusternian newbie, but I don't recall it imparting anything useful. Like infohere, and item numbers.
Honestly, given how useless I found the 'automated' intro, I think it would be -way- preferable to not have one at all. Just have each Fate ask you a pertinent question (org/guild/race) and then give a brief lore blurb to set the tone. Clotho can explain you just did the Portal of Fate and what it is, Lachesis can mention the Soulless and the increasingly irrelevant Taint Wars, and Atropos can do the usual "punch shadow/get destiny" thing. And from there, PCs and the Collegium can handle the rest before packing you off to Newton. -*Because they already do*-
The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure pure reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!
All the intro does for me is keep me from making alts as often. Well done, I guess?
That being said, the intro really doesn't teach much. How to path walk, how to hand in corpses for a quest, how to manipulate items in the background to open doors, and how to fight things/retrieve corpses. So far as I remember , it doesn't explain about sipping, or your prompt, or why you're even fighting these finks, nor does it even allow for helping the finks instead.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Including learning the specific amount of lessons it takes to acquire said basic bashing attack? What about monks? Does it need to go into explaining katas in the newbie tour?
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Every basic bashing attack has already been moved to inept from what I can tell. And your primary skill is automatically selected already when you pick guild, so, you need to learn nothing. I wouldn't have suggested this otherwise.
I will grant that they were lackluster lore-wise however they had many elements of questing to them.
That is why my vote os somewhat fun. There was even a bit where I somehow lost a quest item after learning It was not yet needed and had to start it all over. Quests are not meant to be easy things to figure out.
The lack of any real lore element though was disheartening.
edit: Well true newbie to Lusternia. Not to MUDS or IRE
Not a true newbie, but back when I was(to Lusternia) I attempted and completed the gnome side of the quest. It's complicated, but by no means impossible to someone dedicated enough to figure it out. The fink side I had to ask about an issue of correct syntax to get past one part of it, but still figured the quest out without help, and without a guide. If someone's never played a text game/MUD before(and that was true of me when I played my first IRE game), yeah, they'd struggle with the quests, but probably with a whole of other things, too. Still not impossible.
Only thing I don't like about Newton intro is the same issue a lot of other people mention- it has nothing to do with the lore of Lusternia itself, and doesn't even explain very well the significance of the portal of fate, to say nothing of the Soulless or the Taint.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
Every basic bashing attack has already been moved to inept from what I can tell. And your primary skill is automatically selected already when you pick guild, so, you need to learn nothing. I wouldn't have suggested this otherwise.
It's not at 0% inept. You still need to use lessons to some point. Cosmicfire is the highest-placed skill at something like 33% novice, but either way... none of them are learned as soon as you skillchoice select.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Comments
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1. IRE mandates that the introduction must happen in a "live" environment. That is, that the rooms of the introduction all happen in an area where players can interact with other players.
2. Newton, the area where the intro happens, is quite irrelevant to Lusternia as a whole. While the Fink/Gnome war is interesting, it does not reflect at all upon Lusternia as a whole.
If so, the question I'm left pondering about is "Why Newton"? While the caverns are a safe haven for youngsters, with the Grace of Innocence youngsters shouldn't have much to worry about outside of Newton. So why not set it outside Newton? If so, you already open up a lot of opportunities.
Actually, @Estarra would you mind sharing exactly what the newbie intro mandate entails? Knowing which limits there are for the intro would help a lot in providing structured advice on it.
If I hadn't known IRE already, I would have likely gotten stuck several times. Some hints are weird and REMEMBER did not always help me either.
And as a matter of fact I DID get stuck. Some Fate mob was supposed to show up and didn't, no hint on what to do etc. I mobtalked and someone helped me (thankfully!) and ported the mob in. Lucky me.
But honestly, that intro didn't teach me anything about Lusternia, nor did it give me a feel for my character or the world. It didn't teach me basic, important mechanics either (like referring to items by number. The last intro did that, and that was good!). I think the idea of fighting your own shadow is good, but it's not presented well. It wasn't until after the entire thing that I realized what was supposed to have gone on (or I think I do. I'm still not sure). -.-
EDIT: Oh hey, I just necro'd the thread.. Sorry, guys, I really didn't notice!
I like Newton. I don't really care for the automated walk through part. The part that's supposed to be teaching you how to do things I guess. It felt a bit too hand-holdy at the same time as not being helpful enough, if that makes sense.
But, as far as the Newton area and the Newton quests, I like them. I like having an area set aside where you can explore and kill things and quest and so on without being bothered by some high level someone who's decided they want to kill a bunch of folks who can't fight back or mess up quests by killing quest mobs or what have you. And I managed to figure out both sides of the Fink/Gnome quest and I enjoyed that too.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Well a lot of the comments seemed to include the Caverns aside from automated intro part. So, I wanted to be clear.
I'm going to add that I love Newton.
I just immensly dislike the automated intro. My "no" vote was excusively for that.
The gist is that you've been kidnapped, you escape (learning movement, unlock/open, sipping, punching) and are dropped near to one of their newbie zones by some named npcs from your org.
Following that quest you get taken to the guy the kidnappers blamed, and get your butt kicked by him. (Teaches you writhe I think)
You then need to get level ten to progress, which isn't too difficult and the other tasks around the place show you how to get there pretty easily. (leveling/bashing quests)
Once you're at level ten you can face the baddy, and the bigger baddy behind them. I liked that this has a pass as well as fail mechanic if you don't manage to actually beat them.
Then you get summoned by the named npcs to your org where you do some wander around type tasks. (Ratting, actual questing, butterfly catching/gold generation, and learning from tutors)
Once you're done with those tasks you go on a small quest into an instance of a higher level zone. Where you need to interact with a few npcs and experience trackers (running away, interacting with objects in the world)
With all of that done, you go back and your completion is announced to the city with a title being granted to mark it.
Depending on the city (they're transitioning things) you may then need to complete some city based tasks which teach you a few more things (Eleusis gets you to go to the forests for example among other things) and also introduces you to each of the houses/guilds that belong there. (Which is also when you chose your house because yay separation of house and skills)
This has a kinda nice pacing, the only glaring issue I found was that with the current transitioning it doesn't seem like everything is quite settled on the players side. As a result I couldn't reliably find any information about what skills to learn which is something that could be resolved easily.
Haven't really played through the new intro in a while but how does it match up to that experience?
In contrast to something like Aetolia's (old, at least. Haven't tried in a while) "you were kidnapped by slavers and escape." So... seriously? Every player in that game, from the highest city leader, to the greatest, most artied combatant, was at some point kidnapped by slavers, and escaped. I imagine that got swept under the rug, a lot. Likewise with Achaea's (new? were you always kidnapped?) intro. I vaguely remember there was one that started in media res with you burning in some magical flame. That always seemed neat.
Lusty's new intro kinda downplays that a bit. And then doesn't play up anything except speedwalk and greet. I can't totally comment on it, since I am nowhere near a true Lusternian newbie, but I don't recall it imparting anything useful. Like infohere, and item numbers.
Honestly, given how useless I found the 'automated' intro, I think it would be -way- preferable to not have one at all. Just have each Fate ask you a pertinent question (org/guild/race) and then give a brief lore blurb to set the tone. Clotho can explain you just did the Portal of Fate and what it is, Lachesis can mention the Soulless and the increasingly irrelevant Taint Wars, and Atropos can do the usual "punch shadow/get destiny" thing. And from there, PCs and the Collegium can handle the rest before packing you off to Newton. -*Because they already do*-
That being said, the intro really doesn't teach much. How to path walk, how to hand in corpses for a quest, how to manipulate items in the background to open doors, and how to fight things/retrieve corpses. So far as I remember , it doesn't explain about sipping, or your prompt, or why you're even fighting these finks, nor does it even allow for helping the finks instead.
The Inner Sea. I take commissions doe.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
EDIT: Nature talisman might be a bit harder, cause you have to summon the talisman and wield it.