Tweets not Tweets.

Enadonella

Kinda like, Bacon not Bacon. For anyone who doesn't know what this is, enjoy your bacon.

Enadonella

So....as I was saying....

I just don't understand how it is so hard for you all to just let them be. Unless you suffered brutal head trauma at infancy or you are an insufferable asshole why would feel the need to remove the rifts after a certain someone agreed to stop removing them?

You are all being incredibly petty. Also, if you could leave your emotionally driven responses caused by ooc conflicts out of this, that would be great.

The reason why this bothers me so much is because I use them. I don't give a shit that there are other ways, it is convenient and adds to the enjoyment of the game. But please continue to tell me how much you love to fuck it up for everyone else and you are only doing it to piss someone else off.

(Note: I am in pain and incredibly snarky but sugar coating this isn't going to change much. Much love, Ena.)

Lavinya

I use the rifts. I don't have to, and don't get too bothered when they are removed, save for a general grunt of annoyance, because convenience is king.

Fighting over them though, is quite frankly, stupid. I'm talking from both sides here. If you seriously have nothing better to do than destroy pathways and rifts that predominantly help smaller people get where they need to go, you're either a) not looking hard enough or b) just being a douche to annoy a player. Destroying rifts in retaliation to someone else destroying rifts is nothing short of idiotic. Everyone should just grow up. There are much better ways of having conflict in the game than pissing a large number of people off over something like rifts.

The above, I aim at everyone who has ever engaged in unravelling rifts and pathways for no reason other than 'because I can and it pisses off that player' or 'they did it to me, so I'll do it to everyone'.

It's like destroying statues, or chopping elders. It's justifiable in character, sure, but even the people who aren't saying anything think it's pretty lame.

Ventidius

STOP TRYING TO GET OUTSIDERS MIXED UP IN THIS!!!

I just want to play Ventidius and slaughter children what do I care about rifts!! It's between y'all.

Enadonella

Lol. I think some of you are confused. I am not touching those rifts. I am simply trying to make the shit stop. Which I was quite successful with until.. Enyalida. 

Eritheyl

Wonder if this thread will be locked by the time I check back in this evening...

Turnus

This thread title is so confusing, so I hope it dies a horrible death. Also there's another rift thread now!

Enyalida

Yep, it's totally me removing the rifts, and I'm 100% happy with @Marcella's "If we can't have them, nobody can" solution. I only bother with it when I have the time to be online and unravel a whole set at once, so I don't do it often.

I am seriously skeptical of the claims that the rifts are primarily used by new players to get where they need to go, mostly because the bulk of rifts link to places no novice needs to go. Novices need to get to Icewynd, or Lirangsha? If it were truly an altruistic but all the novicesss situation, there would be fewer rifts would not sit on guard stacks. One of the Magnagoran players arguing hard for keeping the rifts for the novices recently raised TBC and has released the Slagorah'ruin... for the novices? Besides being annoying, the only people those quest really affect or endanger are novices, so... I'm not buying it. 

 I (the character) object to the use of Ethereal as a hub-plane for cities, especially due to the linking of Ethereal to the outer planes, especially due to the linking to the Earth plane in particular. Furthermore, it's un-Auseklisian to depend on the shortcuts and paths other people have made, especially as a youngster. This is a totally IC stance, but it has OOC ramifications too. I've said as much to Serenwilders and would love to engage IC on the matter, but from my time as the CL I take a hard-line stance against threats: I 100% ignore them, no response (or perhaps a scornful one). It's not motivated at all out of spite or retribution or anything at all recent, I've done this off an on for RL years but recent RP stuff has made Enya more resolute about it.

Anyways, wasn't one of the chief concerns of the new introduction that novices could just click through it, without exploring or seeing any of the rooms between objectives as they shuttle along? This presents a similar problem. Teach your novices how to ask for help, how to find the existing paths, and why the cities don't link to Ethereal. We teach ours why we only have one plane linked to us (and why this is a good thing), and help them the one time they need to get up to the outer planes.

EDIT: I'm a little uncertain of a stance against linking prime to ethereal more, so I tend to leave ones that lead to neutral prime territory, even if I think they're random or silly rifts. Ones that lead to guard stacks (helloo, novices, or newer players without the ability to see directly where a rift goes) are not likely to stick around too long, though.

Marcella

The thing is, that's what we DO with our rifts. It's in our scrolls that you can't let people help you get to any plane except Astral and you're not allowed to have a Nihilist or a Geomancer 'cheat' your way up, because that means you'd have to rely on someone else. If you use the rift to Crystal Meadows, which we try really damn hard *which has been up for 70 IG years without any problems*, and then use the rift to Earth that is *immediately there*, then suddenly all of our novices, with enough skill in planar, have a way to access every single plane on their own without any guide whatsoever as long as they know what rift is where. We don't tell them about Icewynd or Lirangsha. We tell them 'the rift is east of the megalith, the one to Earth is south of that, and the one to Nil is south of that. If you want to go to Faethorn, go to nil and then go back to Earth at the Megalith so you'll be in the Catacombs and find the archway.' Then they do.

Alone, most of the time, if they're competent.

We have NEVER put our rifts on guard stacks. That will start changing just for the sheer spite of it if people keep unweaving our rifts.

I don't see how there is a fucking issue here, honestly. Just *leave it alone* so we can get back to how it's *been for IG decades with no problems*.

I have tried not doing anything. I put the rifts back up four times in one fucking weave before redirecting the Icewynd one and unravelling anything, because apparantly sitting back and taking the rift unweaving without doing shit doesn't work, so I need to get ever more drastic in the CM Rift Wars.

Synkarin

Honestly, if you think a rift to a guard stack is a big deal for novices, you're not really thinking it through. We're not Aetolia where anyone living in the wrong city is immediately enemied. Most novices will accidentally transverse into a guard stack, realize they are in the wrong place and move on without incident. It only affects people who are enemied, which isn't 99% of novices.

Shuyin

IE scrubs or lazy people who don't survey.

Arcanis

Im rather glad of the IC reasoning given as to why @Enyalida has been unraveling these rifts, and frankly find them quite reasonable. Sadly, it seems others have infact been specifically unraveling Magnagora's rift out of childish spite. Rather simple to point these players out.

Kaiel

I kind of have to agree with Marcella here, honestly. While I don't think Magnagora has any "right" to have gates in CM, is it really hurting anyone? They don't, and have not ever, gone to guard stacks. I've accidentally popped into Magnagora on multiple occasions just to go "oh shit" and quickly pop back out. Ultimately, all you're doing, @Enyalida, is stirring the pot for absolutely no reason besides "I don't like you OOC," and that's kind of lame, because all you're accomplishing is killing convenience for everyone and screwing over midbies that want to bash Icewynds and influence Lirangsha. You can try to justify it IC all you like, but the reason you're dragging this on is obvious and childish.

Just leave it the hell alone, don't use the rifts if you don't want to for your "Auseklian" reasons or wtfever. 

P.S: Well trolled with the redirected Icewynd rift, @Marcella. Total dick move, but good job.

P.P.S: Can we all stop arguing over rifts now and go raid instead or something? Pretty please?

Elanorwen

Kaiel said:

I kind of have to agree with Marcella here, honestly. While I don't think Magnagora has any "right" to have gates in CM, is it really hurting anyone? They don't, and have not ever, gone to guard stacks. I've accidentally popped into Magnagora on multiple occasions just to go "oh shit" and quickly pop back out. Ultimately, all you're doing, @Enyalida, is stirring the pot for absolutely no reason besides "I don't like you OOC," and that's kind of lame, because all you're accomplishing is killing convenience for everyone and screwing over midbies that want to bash Icewynds and influence Lirangsha. You can try to justify it IC all you like, but the reason you're dragging this on is obvious and childish.

Just leave it the hell alone, don't use the rifts if you don't want to for your "Auseklian" reasons or wtfever. 

P.S: Well trolled with the redirected Icewynd rift, @Marcella. Total dick move, but good job.

P.P.S: Can we all stop arguing over rifts now and go raid instead or something? Pretty please?

Personally couldn't care less about rifts. Only ever unraveled Gaudi ones that lead to guard stacks even though they don't affect me in any way as I don't use the meadows in the first place. When the first ultimatum was tossed out, I was quite tempted to go ahead and unravel Mag rifts just out of spite because everyone knows exactly who causes the problem with the pathways and what organization they belong to. "Newbies have no place in Icewynd trill camps" and what-not? Really? What do you care, beyond you caught some newbie screwing with your quest without even realizing it and then instead of asking them to stop for a bit so you can do it, you bitched them out and they decided to screw with it intentionally to spite you? Either way, who died and put you in charge of pathways/trill camps/quests?

Silvanus

Enyalida said:

Yep, it's totally me removing the rifts, and I'm 100% happy with @Marcella's "If we can't have them, nobody can" solution. I only bother with it when I have the time to be online and unravel a whole set at once, so I don't do it often.

I am seriously skeptical of the claims that the rifts are primarily used by new players to get where they need to go, mostly because the bulk of rifts link to places no novice needs to go. Novices need to get to Icewynd, or Lirangsha? If it were truly an altruistic but all the novicesss situation, there would be fewer rifts would not sit on guard stacks. One of the Magnagoran players arguing hard for keeping the rifts for the novices recently raised TBC and has released the Slagorah'ruin... for the novices? Besides being annoying, the only people those quest really affect or endanger are novices, so... I'm not buying it. 

 I (the character) object to the use of Ethereal as a hub-plane for cities, especially due to the linking of Ethereal to the outer planes, especially due to the linking to the Earth plane in particular. Furthermore, it's un-Auseklisian to depend on the shortcuts and paths other people have made, especially as a youngster. This is a totally IC stance, but it has OOC ramifications too. I've said as much to Serenwilders and would love to engage IC on the matter, but from my time as the CL I take a hard-line stance against threats: I 100% ignore them, no response (or perhaps a scornful one). It's not motivated at all out of spite or retribution or anything at all recent, I've done this off an on for RL years but recent RP stuff has made Enya more resolute about it.

Anyways, wasn't one of the chief concerns of the new introduction that novices could just click through it, without exploring or seeing any of the rooms between objectives as they shuttle along? This presents a similar problem. Teach your novices how to ask for help, how to find the existing paths, and why the cities don't link to Ethereal. We teach ours why we only have one plane linked to us (and why this is a good thing), and help them the one time they need to get up to the outer planes.

EDIT: I'm a little uncertain of a stance against linking prime to ethereal more, so I tend to leave ones that lead to neutral prime territory, even if I think they're random or silly rifts. Ones that lead to guard stacks (helloo, novices, or newer players without the ability to see directly where a rift goes) are not likely to stick around too long, though.

Enyalida is ok with pathways but not rifts, doesn't that seem backwards for Ausekilis? Here is you from 12 days ago:

"Hit me up OOC with a message if you're an ecologist interested in making
some paths with me, and we'll work out something IC. If you're allied,
it's probably reasonable that you know I'm an ecologist/everything else
in my guild. If paths are missing, keep
track of where they are. Some are certainly extraneous, but if the hubs
are collapsing, we can re-network them.

 I wish I could make paths all on my lonesome somehow, but no go."

Only when it doesn't impact you, I guess its ok then to destroy them.

Shuyin

Awkward

Enyalida

The thing is, that's what we DO with our rifts. It's in our scrolls that you can't let people help you get to any plane except Astral and you're not allowed to have a Nihilist or a Geomancer 'cheat' your way up, because that means you'd have to rely on someone else.

Well, here is the problem. This is the total opposite of what I would expect, and the ideals my character (and largely Serenwilde) holds, vis-a-vis teamwork and asking for help. I'm not certain how that's anyone's fault but Magnagora's.

@Kaiel if... you say so, my motivations must be utterly different than those things that are moving me to do things, who would have thought! No actually, it's an element of RP that is almost always overlooked for mechanical reasons, and that drops overall org RP in an org with (if I do say so myself) the shakiest and wimpiest RP. 

If it was something like 'Attack all novices who go on Ethereal to complete their collegium tasks' that would be one thing: Clearly going out of your way to hurt the experience of novices (and players in general). That's bad, don't do that. 

On the other hand "The Ethereal plane is the literal manifestation of the literal souls of literally all that is good in the world, even the far flung and twisted parts. The Elemental (and cosmic) planes are evidence of an obsession with dividing the world, disrupting the flow of life energy at the hands of the Cities. It is therefore best to taint the Ethereal as little as possible with extraneous links to the outer planes, and best to stave off the influence of the cities on the plane" is an entirely different beast. 

It's why I have historically unraveled gates, they have not sat there untouched for umpteen IC years. it may seem like that for two reasons: 1) Unraveling gates is hella boring, especially if there are a lot to do. So, it's unlikely that anyone (including me) is going to make a habit of solo-doing it repeatedly, more than possibly once or twice a week. 2) People re-weave them before you notice that they're down. It's by no means something new, or aimed at certain players OOC or whatever - as it's been going on long term since before any of the relevant characters were in leadership. Heck, see what @Saran posted about the history of using Seren territory for a rift hub, it's a long conflict, decently and well rooted in IC events.

Mystic pathways are the secret and mysterious paths of nature itself, something I've always dreamed up as being distinctly Auseklisian ("Hey guys, look at this shortcut I found, exploring!") The unweaving message is... oddly the same as the gate unweaving one, but path forging makes this abundantly clear.  Ideologically, pathways do not bridge  separated planes, nor do they more closely draw together the elemental and ethereal planes. They increase the unity and add to the web of connections spanning the Prime plane. It's quite the opposite of being backwards from [my interpretation of the few things survivng from] Auseklis, or from the teachings of Hart.

That said, I only infrequently use paths, as I'm only infrequently an Ecologist and only infrequently running on a system that has good mapping of pathways. The unweaving of pathways was explicitly (as stated by the person doing it) an OOC act, intended to 'prevent players from circumventing quest design'. So... that's a difference?

Marcella

Magnagora would rather its newbies be independant and able to get places without being led around by the hand.

This is a fault, apparantly.

So, the Catacombs of the Dead, being Ethereal, are a representation of the Prime? Really? No, Urlach forced excorable magic and made a plane exist that couldn't exist, because the Catacombs break planar physics. Yomoigu said so Himself.

I've always thought the Crystal Meadows were a similar thing. There is absolutely nothing related to them in nature, and the only reason they sprang into being were the experiments in Tzarin Passages (Sp.)

Maligorn

Mags can direct newbies to Tolborolla, where they'd still not need holding hands...since it's a few steps away from the Aetherplex...

Everiine

Wait... Magnagoran novices should be independent and get to the planes on their own...

... by using Rifts woven by other people, specifically to help novices get to the places they need to go.

Sorry, Rifts or no rifts, the novices are getting helped by others. I don't know how that impacts this discussion, but I thought I'd point it out.

Also, if that's your RP, and another's RP is "Don't allow Rifts on the Ethereal Plane", you're both going to have to deal with those clashing RPs. The fact that this has been an OOC argument for RL months is sad, sad thing.

Shaddus

Don't take this the wrong way, but a dead order with an inactive god and exactly 1-2 active followers is the last thing I'd base my actions on when it comes to screwing other people.


That being said, maybe we just need to have an IC meeting between org leaders and get some sort of gentleman's agreement.

Ssaliss

Shaddus said:

exactly 1-2

So it's "exactly roughly perhaps sortof" that many? How does that work?

Enadonella

@Turnus this isn't just for rifts. Basically anyone can come here and bitch discuss things that old most likely get tweets shut own.

@Shaddus I tried to get something like that happening but CL leaders weren't online at the time and certain people were hell bent on griefing Marcella for something ooc. And people can sit there and type out all sorts of bs but it doesn't change the fact that that is why was happening in that one particular instance.

@Everiine those rifts give independence to novices that we take for granted. Regardless of who puts them there and who the CL is of that org I think both oocly and icly it would be better if the I cities used CM rather than traipsing fae thieving to be noobs through Faethorn.

Shaddus

Ssaliss said:

Shaddus said:

exactly 1-2

So it's "exactly roughly perhaps sortof" that many? How does that work?

It's "I know Enyalida is an Auseklean, and I think Turnus may be but not sure, but I don't want to call him a half person"

Everiine

@Enadonella Even if that's so, it's still an IC issue. This ridiculous forum war is just that.

Enadonella

Uh. Okay. Obviously resolving this IC is not actually going to happen. So no, this is not -ridiculous- what is though is the way people talk to each other and trying to make people feel inferior for doing so is rude and unnecessary. 

If people need to take an ic situation and resolve it oocly so that icly we can get on with it then that is exactly what should happen so that it doesn't get out of hand. I have watched players come and go because of ic events that cause ooc drama and, not having a way to vent, discuss and resolve this situation (basically mediate) resulting in players to make decisions they later regret or just QQ, or what is happening which is to cause more grief leading to more QQ'ing. 

For those of you that don't know me a little more oocly, I am all about the good feels and resolving issues and having a really good time dying in raids/domoths/whatever that are actually meaningful. And sure I get angry and I say/do things that contradict this statement. But I am aware of it and I apologise and make amends where necessary.

Anyway, if you don't like the thread or the discussion the answer to all of your problems is pretty simple. Stop reading it.

Aerotan

One point of contention I feel needs to be voiced: The cosmic planes didn't divide jack. The cosmic planes were already divided before the Basin was a thing. They were divided by Dynara herself when She made them to bring forth the Elder Gods and the Primal Gods before them. The fact that the Supernals and Emanations never made it off their planes is moot, they were always separate things. 

I suspect the elemental planes were as well, but I haven't seen a whole lot of information from official sources with regards to what makes an Elemental plane. All we know is that the first mages found the elemental planes by following specific vibrations from the ethereal plane, and apparently the nexii of power were somehow able to push through Ethereal once they were tied to the planes in question. 

Then it was Aquamancers who found the cosmic planes first, pushing through and discovering a purer form of energy in Celestia from the half-formed, the Supernals, and thereby becoming the first Celestines. Both sets of planes existed independently of the drive that discovered them.

Tridemon

I believe the current theory about the Elemental planes is that they are a direct result of the existence of specific Cosmic Planes' vibrations interacting with vibrations from the Prime Material Plane- basically something that happened on accident, but as a direct result of Dynara's creation of the Cosmic Planes and their position in the cosmosphere. The same cannot be said for much of the Ethereal plane, since quite a bit of that was put in place by the Elders to protect nature during the Elder Wars.

Enyalida

Shaddus said:

Don't take this the wrong way, but a dead order with an inactive god and exactly 1-2 active followers is the last thing I'd base my actions on when it comes to screwing other people.


That being said, maybe we just need to have an IC meeting between org leaders and get some sort of gentleman's agreement.

It's two members. Enyalida is one of two said members, and it forms a pretty strong part of who she is, sooo...

Also, I'm totally okay with this happening on the forums partway, and with OOC appeals to characters to change (or begin) IC action.

EDIT: And the thing about divided planes is complicated, but has to do with a worldview that takes the planes as an series of shells nestled around a core, on the Prime plane. Basically, the outer planes are 'natural' in the sense that they were created in a similar uber-divine manner, and are an integral part of what the world is, but are not capitol N Natural for assorted reasons.

Lerad

... wow.

Are we arguing about IC reasonings for unweavings?

Really? Are we stooping so low? What, are you telling me that if there is an IC reason, it somehow makes acting like a jerk justified? Or are you telling me that in a game where you can RP with your newbies, your guildmates, your citymates, your enemies, or org NPCs or even neutral area NPCs or even your god forsaken curio pets, you have nothing to do but to use gates as a point of RP, to build your character, to express your self and creativity?

Are you telling me that an IC reasoning makes it okay to undo hours and hours of player effort, that is meant for nothing but travel convenience, in a game, for anyone who can use them? That the players who played this game years before you did, who spent the time and effort building these hubs only to leave the game, with the hope that someone else can use them, that this effort is nothing for a stepping stone but your useless and stupid and pointless "IC" reasonings?

Sure, yes, this is an RP enforced game. Everything that happens in the game should be IC. You want to be all RP-gungho? No one should point at you and pull you down. But of all the things you can use as IC justification as a reason to confront or conflict with other players over, you choose rifts and pathways, mechanics designed for easier movement in a text-world, where spatial orientation can be difficult for newbies, much less speedy movement to obscure places. Of all the RP you can enforce on your newbies, "Ausekiliean" or however the fuck you spell it, is the one thing you want to impose upon them. "Get to a place by your own two damn feet, you useless little noob."

Really?

Let me put this out there. There is zero justification on an OOC level for griefing rifts and pathways. Zero. None. Zilch. Nothing. They are designed for convenience and travel. The lengthy channel times make them all but impossible to use for infiltration, combat or conflict. The planar system in Lusternia is, in one word, convoluted, and exists on top of the usual IRE continental system. You have areas which cannot be teleported to. You have areas which cannot be heard from. And rift gates (as well as pathways) are one of the mechanics designed specifically with these systems in mind to make things easier. Players were the ones who came together, to build hubs like the mountain pathway hubs and the crystal meadow rift hubs, not for themselves, but for everyone who can use them. These two mechanics were designed to help people get from one place to another, but it was player effort, player collaboration, player cooperation that came together to make it available on a scale that newbies can systematically use. They made these mechanics accessible for everyone, as long as the tradition is passed down, people teaching others where to look, how to use them, how to figure them out, and how to expand the system for new areas and places, to keep the system alive and relevant. All for everyone's enjoyment in a game.

It is not alright in any sense of the word to mess with this on an OOC level. There is no justification for anyone to be touching these hubs on an OOC level, period. This is not your property, and it will never be. If it someone can claim them, it would be the collective community. The arrogance one needs to tear it down for your own measly, stomach-churning, disgusting pride is ridiculous to imagine. You can use IC justification, of course. Anything can be justified IC. But if you somehow think this makes it alright on an OOC level, you better think again. You want to act like a jerk and a prick on the internet? No one can stop you. But if you think for a second "IC" justification makes it less of a disgusting act, you're dead wrong.

It makes me sick to the pit of my stomach that there is not one, but multiple people in this community who think this is somehow acceptable. That unraveling for some kind of "IC" reasoning is acceptable. The entire time I've been on the sidelines, thinking that this is a sad cycle of retaliation started by one egomaniac. But I guess I was wrong. What a thing to wake up on the first day of the lunar new year. And such shame I have never felt being part of a community.

Silvanus

Is the strong Auseklin part of your RP which enables and supports pathways but no to rifts?