Fink number two reporting in (statistically anyways, and maybe rply as well when I finally get that mag alt of mine going). Gotta agree, while I don't expect paid for races to be baseline OP, having bonuses to ship stuff is... Underwhelming. I know the document is submitted and the new things are being coded as we speak from what I understand from posts here, and I have no useful suggestions. So feel free to ignore.
Finks and Gnomes are already niche races designed around Aetherspace with their respective racial bonuses in the live game.
Finks currently have very low intellect, this is because of their high strength/dex value, a pattern seen in several other martial races. This is more of a curse than a blessing. Because Finks suffer from an unbalanced set of stats through the point-buy system, this makes them exceptionally poor in various fields, such as combat, due to their low intellect.
With the overhaul, the outlying effects of all races with stats are gone. Many races have lost what made them unique through stats, Trill and Faeling have surrendered their strength as master influencers and debaters, Merian and Mugwump have lost their edge as combat casters the same way Aslaran are no longer the master race for melee.
The argument of aetherhunting being a situational perk puts it in line with many of the other perks also being situational. However a Fink won't be a subpar person in combat, or hunting, just because their perks doesn't grant them an edge in those fields.
Being "the wrong race" isn't a thing, with the overhaul. While being certain races will give situational advantages, you won't find yourself struggling in the way people do now, because they're not playing along with the meta. You will be able to do everything as any race, some people will do some things better, but they will also do some things equal and other things worse. There is no one race to rule them all, your biggest challenges will be going against people who use cameos to changeling between various races for various scenarios, and that's fine.
The reason that's fine is because min/maxing still has to have some output, this overhaul has massively reduced many outliers that existed. Gone are the days of the 15-21k health Knights, the 60% to all resistance fighters, the double your strength debaters and the faster than you combatants. Gone are the days where fire rules the roost because everyone else is highly flammable. For those who want to invest in their characters to have an advantage, or some level of mechanics to play with to optimise themselves, the perk system covers the board in every element but debating (intended.)
I can sympathise with your dismay if you find forming hunts difficult, that isn't an issue of the racial system, but more aetherspace and player activity. However the game goes in cycles, there are periods where they become popular, and at that point you'll have a better argument than anyone else for first spot on the turrets. (I cannot stress how powerful damage shift is going to be in Aetherspace, we've been very reluctant for the longest time to give this to players, Finks will be unique in this aspect and combined with increased damage, accuracy and firing speed will put them in a league of their own.)
Aside from hunts will be Aetherflares, going up against a ship manned by either Finks shooting faster, and hitting harder than you, or Gnomes who are more effective at repairing, healing and manoeuvring is going to make a difference. Having a ship crewed fully by Finks and Gnomes will be a small nightmare to contend with.
The argument against the dramatics boost is kind of lost on me when you say fink's are 'cunning' right at the end.
Being better in dramatics doesn't really make someone a better bard, it only makes someone a better influencer, so I don't really forsee anyone going Fink specifically to be a bard (unless they want to stack dramaturgy + fink bonus), but there may be better choices for that still (like a race with charity/empower bonuses instead of dramatics).
I guess I should say that I don't necessarily think fink/gnomes are worth 500credits, but it may be they get re-evaluated after the overhaul is completed.
I had a lengthy argument written up, but then I realized it's pointless. I'm not ever going to be a fink or gnome anyway, for one reason: I do not think aetherspace perks justify a 500 credit price tag.
Every other race has strengths somewhere and that's peachy as they are 'free'. Fink / gnomes are not and since aetherspace hunting isn't even something you can do on your own, payng 500 credits when you don't know if you can get any use out of it... well I would neither do it nor recommend it. That's all there is to say really.
The number of finks in game is very small, and the number of finks rping as finks is smaller. Because it's one. Me. You currently have one person who wants to actually play as a fink.
So, before the overhaul, very few bought fink. After overhaul, I do not think anyone will spend the 500 credits to become a fink. No one else is as insane as me. And I'm not gonna buy the race artifact, because, it's silly IMO to spend credits to make me and even better gunner, when I will already be better than anyone else.
If you want people to buy fink, you need to make it more attractive.
I realise what I'm about to say will be very unpopular, but I hope the logic behind it is understandable.
The discussion of the actual worthwhile credit value of the Fink/Gnome artifact, while a valid topic, isn't appropriate here. That a race costs you 500 credits more isn't a justification to make them exceptionally appealing, and races will not be balanced on the "I spent 500 credits for this" argument. If I'm misunderstanding you, apologies, but that was a major rule I put in myself while designing the various perks.
Granted, the fact that they are races that cost credits did offer me the option to give them unique bonuses that otherwise would not be allowed into the game (either as a racial, or in some cases, were never going to otherwise see the light of day.) I can empathise that they fill a set of niche roles, and that you feel that uniqueness isn't worth 500 credits, however thematically it made sense to go in this direction, and it gave them a clear edge above the competition in their specific fields, more so than any other race holds an advantage in their own. The closest comparison would be artifact Illithoids having an influencing advantage, but it still isn't as much of a gulf as Finks and Gnomes hold over anyone trying to compete with them in their field of expertise.
If you feel that they are no longer worth the 500 credit value then that's, as I said above, a different topic, which has a different thread to go on. Whether they are value or not, will not impact balance and design of their perks.
Well, ok, I tried. I thought the price argument would help my case, but it seems it will not.
I don't really mind being the only real fink. It's fun to have this corner of RP off on my own. But I still feel like this version of the finks does not match what is presented to us in Newton or Mucklemarsh. And it's frustrating when I put a lot of effort into my RP based on those places, and then get told that instead of being little smelly matriarchal savages, we are now going to be good at acting.
EDIT: But the way, I do accept the aetherspace argument. The demi-perk and demi+-perk, that's fine. I accept that. But as those are not going to change, I really would like something different to the influencing buff instead
Any direct attack that does damage, treat it as you would current offensive damage procs.
It won't be proccing on bleeds or passives such as melds. It's an ability that takes up the Dracnari/Viscanti's balance that deals damage to their victim.
Random: I just noticed this caveat, @Baelor. The ability only procs on damage against players, but also consumes balance. WIll it not proc then if you happen to have used a damage-dealing balance move (see: warriors)? Or would it just lengthen your balance time? How long of a delay would it be?
Either of these are kind of dampers to the ability, since combatants wouldn't want to slow down their offense more, but clarification would be grand for these guys and Viscanti/Taurian..
Edit: Whomp. Reading further, I see that it won't further delay the attack for damage-dealing balance moves, but still - would it consume balance for damage-dealing equilibrium attacks then? Or is it just a defining thing?
If it's an attack that uses balance (or equilibrium) to deal direct damage (health mana or ego) to another player, it'll proc Fire/Poison breath or Enrage SWING.
So it won't proc off non damaging attacks such as razing, or black notes, or gusts. It won't proc from passives like melds, or other room based effects, it won't be proccing off ent attacks.
The closest comparison I can think of is Blacknest Crow. When I stated "It's an attack that.." I was referring to what procced the trait, not the trait itself. The trait itself for all intents and purposes is a bonus free action.
Well, ok, I tried. I thought the price argument would help my case, but it seems it will not.
I don't really mind being the only real fink. It's fun to have this corner of RP off on my own. But I still feel like this version of the finks does not match what is presented to us in Newton or Mucklemarsh. And it's frustrating when I put a lot of effort into my RP based on those places, and then get told that instead of being little smelly matriarchal savages, we are now going to be good at acting.
EDIT: But the way, I do accept the aetherspace argument. The demi-perk and demi+-perk, that's fine. I accept that. But as those are not going to change, I really would like something different to the influencing buff instead
I don't really understand this. A smelly matriarchal savage can, if cunning enough, figure out how to manipulate others into doing what they want. This does not make them any less savage, it's just a representation of their ability to observe the flaws in others and exploit them.
In the new design their perks appear to be of very situational use only. I've yet to see an aetherhunt in Gaudi; it's not something you can really do on your own. I admit I don't see a single reason why I should spend 500cr on that. Not one. If it's just arr-pee I can be a smelly taurian or a tiny <whatever> really and spend the 500cr rather on skills or some other arties.
This is a constant and consistent issue in most game design (i.e. balancing combat, rp, utility, and situational abilities). Few game have done this well. One which did (drawing a blank on the PnP game I am thinking of) did it by not having a single pool of ***limited*** points for everything. IMO games that shove things in a single pool of points always or near always fail at balancing.
In this game they had RP skills, utility skills, and combat skills, each with their own pools of points. Why? Because it sucks to spend points on driving or cooking at the cost of say first aid or firearms?
Situational abilities as you point out, only give a benefit if the situation should occur. Ideally, it occurs often enough to make it worth while.
In fairness, the the current races have a ton of mostly useless situational abilities (seduction influencing has to be about one of the most situationally useful abilities, especially when you figure in that all it is going to do is save a bit of time in those rare situations).
People are telling me I have not complained enough about finks. So I'm back, to complain, the lone voice of finkhood.
The demi+ power is just...meh. It is very difficult to put together aetherhunts, I should know, I have been trying for ages, and this whole year I've gotten people to come along on one. Meanwhile, I paid 500 credits to be a fink, for mostly the privilege of having 19 dex, so I can hit denizens for large amounts of monk damage. Which is a stupid thing to buy, probably, but, it's what I wanted.
And now I'm equalized with other races, and what I get instead is, a boost to dramatics.Which is nice, but, it isn't what I bought. I didn't buy an influencing race, I bought an ugly, smelly race, who, when their homeworld was overrun, didn't go out and talk to the gnomes, they didn't wheedle money out of them, they didn't seduce the cities to ally with them, or they went and invaded Smoke Mountain and beat on the gnomes until Gucka left and thier army collapsed.
The demi power is great, just...it doesn't need to be improved. Or if you want that, replace the influence buffs. Please give us something that keeps us true to our...lets say, nimbleness, our super-dex. That's what I paid for. Give us a blanket chance to get crits, or I don't know. Give me ideas people. Stuff that work for a small, ugly, cunning race who swear a lot and hit things instead of talking to them.
I paid a lot for this race, and I want to keep what I bought.
I was trying to make these points about the race I knew most about early on in the process with tae'sae and others tried to make them about dracnari. It was a lost cause then and even more so now. It's not something they are interested in hearing.
@Baelor belated, but I just noticed the demigod+ for Elfen/Faeling in the google doc specifies that Elfen don't get their bonus in wyrd and Faeling don't get their bonus in sylvan. I guess first, is that the way its meant to be (your post didn't include this)
Two things I suppose:
1. I'm assuming the sylvan is probably a typo (sylvan forest is specifically the natural environment in faethorn, serenwilde's terrain is just "forest")
2. I both understand and don't understand why there is this differentiation.
Yes, the races are the "org race" of their respective organisations, however that is generally covered by the level 50 perk. From the looks of it there isn't a demi+ park for other org races that doesn't work in "enemy" territory.
I don't so much have an issue with it not working in enemy territory. I guess I would just prefer if the Improved "One with nature" worked based on your org.
i.e Serenwilde elfen and faeling in get the buff on "forest" terrain, those in Glomdoring get the buff in "wyrd" terrain, perhaps if you're not a member of either, then you get neither).
I understand it would be more complicated to code, but well... Serenwilde from memory has a few notable faeling families and Dain is probably the most notable currently around, though we of course have the scattering of fae within the commune too.
It's kinda weird to me to think that they're all suddenly more powerful if they're standing in the wyrd, even though they have no connection to it, especially faeling family lines that may have been birthed from Seren Elfen and Fae. This is specifically different, in my mind at least, to the level 50 bonus because that one specifically draws on the connection to your org.
Forest is a a coded terrain type, much like JUNGLE is or URBAN.
Elfen also get their bonuses in Sylvan whereas Faelings get theirs in Wyrd. The tooltip doesn't reflect this, but that's already how it's coded.
It may be different in the code, but the issue that I still have here is that "Forest" is what Hartstone summon as far as the player facing language is concerned. That's what most of Serenwilde surveys as, it's what locations "terrained" by the Hartstone survey as. It's also used elsewhere, such as a small section Tolborolla, which conforms to this behaviour, if a Hartstone terrains Tolborolla it does not have the "Superimposed over this location, an ethereal forest reaches up to the sky." line in the room.
Wyrd is the same thing except for Glomdoring.
"Sylvan Forest" is the natural terrain of Faethorn, it's what happens if you trueground faethorn (see below).
Per the language that the players interact with, with the trait specifying "Sylvan Forest" not being included for faeling this would then mean that the faeling do not get their bonus in faethorn only, however, they would keep it while fighting Serens in their own terrain type, while Elfen would keep their bonus in Faethorn but lose it if the fight Glomdoring in their terrain type.
As it stands with the language used, the typical race of Glomdoring gets a buff while in Serenwilde territory, while the typical race of Serenwilde does not have the same in reverse.
The other issue is on an rp level, Sylvan forest was introduced from memory to specifically make both forests equal in terms of Faethorn, as a result of this change both forests impose their own terrain type onto the "sylvan" of faethorn. Whatever you consider it to be, this marks the Elfen as more deeply connected to Faethorn than Faelings...
Below is a brief log of me truegrounding and then foresting in faethorn to illustrate.
--------------------------------------
The cheery stoves of Faethorn.
Superimposed over this location, an ethereal forest reaches up to the sky. A few small snowflakes
drift lazily down from above. Butter Sweetpease swirls about her kitchen, scattering candied violets
everywhere. Perriwinkle Sweetpease stands here, a small willow bow in hand. A hornbeam sapling
clings tenaciously to the ground here.
You see exits leading northeast, southeast, southwest, and northwest.
He is right, Sylvan forest is Faethorn only, which means that Faelings would get the benefit in Hartstone melds / in Serenwilde itself, but not in Faethorn (it's a special forest type that exists only there, specifically to make it so that both Serenwilde and Glomdoring have to terrain Faethorn instead of one side having an inherent advantage).
Making the Faeling bonus not apply in regular forest at all would be taking out a goodly chunk of the "natural" environs (Serenwilde doesn't have a special foresty type).
Faeling bonus won't work in Hartstone affected areas, unless they're normally areas that the Faeling bonus would work in. The same, but reversed for Wyrd, applies to Elfen. So for example if there was a fight in a village (which are usually considered urban) neither side would benefit. If a Hartstone (or someone with a Serenwilde censer) was to raise their effects, a Faeling wouldn't benefit. Same if a Blacktalon, or someone with a Glomdoring censor was to raise their effects, an Elfen wouldn't benefit.
As such, both races should always benefit on Faethorn, regardless of whose effects are down.
The disconnect here (and likely cause of confusion) is the use of the words such as forest, which have multiple meanings. Forest is considered an actual terrain type, as well as what Hartstone use to define their meld. Faeling works in the former, and won't benefit out of natural terrain if the latter is raised.
I'll need to double check on this, but I do believe they both count as forest environments.
One issue I could see is that if they both count as forest and both Faeling and Elfen have the full benefit in both is that the enemy can disable the defenders bonuses but the defenders cannot do the same.
Faeling bonus won't work in Hartstone affected areas, unless they're normally areas that the Faeling bonus would work in. The same, but reversed for Wyrd, applies to Elfen. So for example if there was a fight in a village (which are usually considered urban) neither side would benefit. If a Hartstone (or someone with a Serenwilde censer) was to raise their effects, a Faeling wouldn't benefit. Same if a Blacktalon, or someone with a Glomdoring censor was to raise their effects, an Elfen wouldn't benefit.
As such, both races should always benefit on Faethorn, regardless of whose effects are down.
The disconnect here (and likely cause of confusion) is the use of the words such as forest, which have multiple meanings. Forest is considered an actual terrain type, as well as what Hartstone use to define their meld. Faeling works in the former, and won't benefit out of natural terrain if the latter is raised.
The disconnect is the use of the word "sylvan" because that is a very specific kind of forest environs; Sylvan != Hartstone forest, Sylvan = Faethorn forest. I think that's what really needs to be cleared up.
Once that's clarified, I think the rest should fall into place more easily. If you're referring to ethereal forest instead of Sylvan, or ethereal wyrd (just the little line saying that it's been terrained to that), that would definitely make a difference!
Who is Sylvan and why do we need to use my pitchfork on him?
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
The terminology mix-up on that chart is my mistake. @Baelor has clarified it best in that the intent is for both Faelings and Elfen to benefit from the perk in all natural forest, but if it becomes terrained with either ethereal (Seren) or wyrden (Glom), Elfen will benefit from the former but not the latter, and Faeling will benefit from the latter but not the former.
Sorry for the confusion, but hope that helps!
Edit: I've tweaked the chart to better reflect this definition.
I was trying to make these points about the race I knew most about early on in the process with tae'sae and others tried to make them about dracnari. It was a lost cause then and even more so now. It's not something they are interested in hearing.
@Daganev - I don't know why you can't understand that people have read and considered -everything- you've said, and for some reason, you dismiss their disagreement as people 'not understanding the point.'
I can say the admin are extremely interested in hearing people's opinions and what they think, but that doesn't mean they are going to act on every single one of them. That's why these threads on forums exist in the first place, so they can hear the general opinions of the players.
Disagreement is not the same as 'not interested in hearing.' At this point you're sounding more and more like Arcanis.
Lucidian's OVERCHARGE is a 2 second reduction from their normal regeneration. At base this is 10 seconds down from 12, at max discipline this is 6 seconds down from 8.
I asked Roark about Forests vs Seren Forests vs Wyrden Forests. If the natural environment is forest/trees/jungle it's classed as a forest, and both Elfen and Faeling will regenerate. If a location has been changed by a Seren or a Glom druid via FORESTCAST or a censer, then it's classed as FOREST (on that note if a mage uses TWISTER or TYPHOON or other forest blocking spells, it is no longer a forest.) In this instance, only Seren elfen with Stag/Moon/Wildarrane will benefit in Serenwilde druid affected areas, and Night/Crow/Shadowbeat Faeling will benefit in Glomdoring druid affected areas.
NOTE: I've asked about Shofangi and Nekotai missing from these lists already.
Now comes the interesting part. If a natural area is covered by an artificial forest from a Serenwilde druid, Faelings lose their bonus they normally have in the area. And vice versa for Elfen losing their bonus on natural terrain if a Glomdoring druid artificially Wyrds it over.
As to the definition of ethereal/prime serenwilde and glomdoring's natural forests and how they affect the opposite race, still waiting for confirmation on that one.
Also finally: I made a small error in designing these perks and was running off incorrect information and because of which omitted a current trait. Krokani regain their ability to detect illusions in their tier four perk. Rejoice!
Trackers are actually given a bit of a short stick on this, it's hard to explain but from the discussions in Roark this may be a code limitation issue. If we add trackers we're extending the org terrain bonus to non org Faeling/Elfen Knights, whereas no other guild has that choice.
I'm trying to get a few more details regarding how that part works, for now I'll have to ask for your patience, thanks.
Comments
Finks currently have very low intellect, this is because of their high strength/dex value, a pattern seen in several other martial races. This is more of a curse than a blessing. Because Finks suffer from an unbalanced set of stats through the point-buy system, this makes them exceptionally poor in various fields, such as combat, due to their low intellect.
With the overhaul, the outlying effects of all races with stats are gone. Many races have lost what made them unique through stats, Trill and Faeling have surrendered their strength as master influencers and debaters, Merian and Mugwump have lost their edge as combat casters the same way Aslaran are no longer the master race for melee.
The argument of aetherhunting being a situational perk puts it in line with many of the other perks also being situational. However a Fink won't be a subpar person in combat, or hunting, just because their perks doesn't grant them an edge in those fields.
The reason that's fine is because min/maxing still has to have some output, this overhaul has massively reduced many outliers that existed. Gone are the days of the 15-21k health Knights, the 60% to all resistance fighters, the double your strength debaters and the faster than you combatants. Gone are the days where fire rules the roost because everyone else is highly flammable. For those who want to invest in their characters to have an advantage, or some level of mechanics to play with to optimise themselves, the perk system covers the board in every element but debating (intended.)
I can sympathise with your dismay if you find forming hunts difficult, that isn't an issue of the racial system, but more aetherspace and player activity. However the game goes in cycles, there are periods where they become popular, and at that point you'll have a better argument than anyone else for first spot on the turrets. (I cannot stress how powerful damage shift is going to be in Aetherspace, we've been very reluctant for the longest time to give this to players, Finks will be unique in this aspect and combined with increased damage, accuracy and firing speed will put them in a league of their own.)
Aside from hunts will be Aetherflares, going up against a ship manned by either Finks shooting faster, and hitting harder than you, or Gnomes who are more effective at repairing, healing and manoeuvring is going to make a difference. Having a ship crewed fully by Finks and Gnomes will be a small nightmare to contend with.
I had a lengthy argument written up, but then I realized it's pointless. I'm not ever going to be a fink or gnome anyway, for one reason: I do not think aetherspace perks justify a 500 credit price tag.
Every other race has strengths somewhere and that's peachy as they are 'free'. Fink / gnomes are not and since aetherspace hunting isn't even something you can do on your own, payng 500 credits when you don't know if you can get any use out of it... well I would neither do it nor recommend it. That's all there is to say really.
Again, personal opinion and such.
The number of finks in game is very small, and the number of finks rping as finks is smaller. Because it's one. Me. You currently have one person who wants to actually play as a fink.
So, before the overhaul, very few bought fink. After overhaul, I do not think anyone will spend the 500 credits to become a fink. No one else is as insane as me. And I'm not gonna buy the race artifact, because, it's silly IMO to spend credits to make me and even better gunner, when I will already be better than anyone else.
If you want people to buy fink, you need to make it more attractive.
The discussion of the actual worthwhile credit value of the Fink/Gnome artifact, while a valid topic, isn't appropriate here. That a race costs you 500 credits more isn't a justification to make them exceptionally appealing, and races will not be balanced on the "I spent 500 credits for this" argument. If I'm misunderstanding you, apologies, but that was a major rule I put in myself while designing the various perks.
If you feel that they are no longer worth the 500 credit value then that's, as I said above, a different topic, which has a different thread to go on. Whether they are value or not, will not impact balance and design of their perks.
I don't really mind being the only real fink. It's fun to have this corner of RP off on my own. But I still feel like this version of the finks does not match what is presented to us in Newton or Mucklemarsh. And it's frustrating when I put a lot of effort into my RP based on those places, and then get told that instead of being little smelly matriarchal savages, we are now going to be good at acting.
EDIT: But the way, I do accept the aetherspace argument. The demi-perk and demi+-perk, that's fine. I accept that. But as those are not going to change, I really would like something different to the influencing buff instead
So it won't proc off non damaging attacks such as razing, or black notes, or gusts. It won't proc from passives like melds, or other room based effects, it won't be proccing off ent attacks.
The closest comparison I can think of is Blacknest Crow. When I stated "It's an attack that.." I was referring to what procced the trait, not the trait itself. The trait itself for all intents and purposes is a bonus free action.
In this game they had RP skills, utility skills, and combat skills, each with their own pools of points. Why? Because it sucks to spend points on driving or cooking at the cost of say first aid or firearms?
Situational abilities as you point out, only give a benefit if the situation should occur. Ideally, it occurs often enough to make it worth while.
In fairness, the the current races have a ton of mostly useless situational abilities (seduction influencing has to be about one of the most situationally useful abilities, especially when you figure in that all it is going to do is save a bit of time in those rare situations).
What about a sneaky fink ability?
Elfen also get their bonuses in Sylvan whereas Faelings get theirs in Wyrd. The tooltip doesn't reflect this, but that's already how it's coded.
It may be different in the code, but the issue that I still have here is that "Forest" is what Hartstone summon as far as the player facing language is concerned. That's what most of Serenwilde surveys as, it's what locations "terrained" by the Hartstone survey as. It's also used elsewhere, such as a small section Tolborolla, which conforms to this behaviour, if a Hartstone terrains Tolborolla it does not have the "Superimposed over this location, an ethereal forest reaches up to the sky." line in the room.
Making the Faeling bonus not apply in regular forest at all would be taking out a goodly chunk of the "natural" environs (Serenwilde doesn't have a special foresty type).
As such, both races should always benefit on Faethorn, regardless of whose effects are down.
The disconnect here (and likely cause of confusion) is the use of the words such as forest, which have multiple meanings. Forest is considered an actual terrain type, as well as what Hartstone use to define their meld. Faeling works in the former, and won't benefit out of natural terrain if the latter is raised.
Once that's clarified, I think the rest should fall into place more easily. If you're referring to ethereal forest instead of Sylvan, or ethereal wyrd (just the little line saying that it's been terrained to that), that would definitely make a difference!
Lucidian's OVERCHARGE is a 2 second reduction from their normal regeneration. At base this is 10 seconds down from 12, at max discipline this is 6 seconds down from 8.
I asked Roark about Forests vs Seren Forests vs Wyrden Forests. If the natural environment is forest/trees/jungle it's classed as a forest, and both Elfen and Faeling will regenerate.
If a location has been changed by a Seren or a Glom druid via FORESTCAST or a censer, then it's classed as FOREST (on that note if a mage uses TWISTER or TYPHOON or other forest blocking spells, it is no longer a forest.) In this instance, only Seren elfen with Stag/Moon/Wildarrane will benefit in Serenwilde druid affected areas, and Night/Crow/Shadowbeat Faeling will benefit in Glomdoring druid affected areas.
NOTE: I've asked about Shofangi and Nekotai missing from these lists already.
Now comes the interesting part. If a natural area is covered by an artificial forest from a Serenwilde druid, Faelings lose their bonus they normally have in the area. And vice versa for Elfen losing their bonus on natural terrain if a Glomdoring druid artificially Wyrds it over.
As to the definition of ethereal/prime serenwilde and glomdoring's natural forests and how they affect the opposite race, still waiting for confirmation on that one.