Tweets VII: Tweet Child of Mine

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  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    Rivius said:
    Synkarin said:
    Rivius said:
    Uh, yea
    Synkarin said:
    Lol what

    Ok, so you guys went to Faethorn waiting for us to fight more, we went up to domoths and absolved, and you said lol, no thank you and all sat around on Prime doing other things? Is that really your argument?


    Uh, yeah. Are you kidding? You already had a numbers advantage by that point and decided to go create a bigger advantage elsewhere and then challenge to try to draw us in. We're not stupid lol. These sort of tactics can be seen a mile away amd are kind of ironic when you want to spew your Fairweather fighter rhetoric everywhere

    We had an advantage by like 2 people. And no, you all ran off back to your orgs, which is why we absolved. Because you all left. No one was sitting in faethorn waiting for us to fight. The argument that you still wanted to fight, but then said 'no thank you' to the absolve is silly and pure fancy. 'we wanted to fight, but only on our terms, in the way we wanted, when we had the clear advantage' is basically what you're saying.

    Not really. That's actually what you were saying! You seem to be getting us mixed up :)

    I never said you guys were in faethorn waiting for us, I've actually denied that saying you weren't, which lead to us absolving. You and Demartel are the ones saying you were in Faethorn waiting for us, but then decided to avoid conflict by not contesting the absolve, meaning you wanted to fight, but only on your terms. I mean, feel free to try and explain how you are not saying that, but that's how it reads to me. Nice Try though :):):)

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    Twytch said:
    Twytch said:

    The point is simple: stop avoiding the game
    Please read my previous post. We're not avoiding the game, we're playing during our peak time. Just because it doesn't happen to be yours does not mean we should bend our schedules backwards just so you can feel happy about yourself.

    We are also not avoiding conflict. We stole an upgrade of Life from you guys, we captured Knowledge when there were fairly equal numbers on both sides (since Hallifax couldn't assist). We repeatedly went up during the War absolves. I believe you even died once during that incident.

    I mean, sure, if we did none of those things then it's completely reasonable to call us out for avoiding the happiest parts of Lusternia. Except, we did. We've even provided irrefutable evidence.
    I'll say it again. 

    We can see you. 

    You literally just named three examples, none of which were initiated by the North, as evidence of....how they initiate conflict when the South has people? Like, I just don't get it. What language am I speaking?
    Okay. I raided Glomdoring Prime 3 days ago with Dylara and some other newbie there to defend. I raided Glomdoring Ethereal approximately 4 hours ago with Tau already in there, seeing me. Athree and Dylara went up to help defend. I initiated those raids, I even got a couple of kills.

    Also, your argument was how the North avoided conflict, now it's about initiating conflict. Now that I've debunked even that, what's your next move?

    EDIT: Before we get into the "they're not real combatants" argument... Dylara was present in at least one of the absolves. She and Tau, I'm pretty sure, have access to discretionaries (which they used). I'm not even a good combatant that I require the likes of Xenthos or Crek to be beaten back.
    Please read my initial post. I cannot help you, I am not an English teacher. If we have to start with how to understand the words people are writing, we're just not going to get very far. 

    The literacy struggle is freaking real, man.
    Celina complains about changing your argument halfway through. Does the same thing and calls you illiterate for it.

    Celina spews out bullshit and expects people to agree with her and not post several different instances of how she's wrong.

    We're all the illiterate ones, guys.

    image
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    Demartel said:
    Synkarin said:
    Lol what

    Ok, so you guys went to Faethorn waiting for us to fight more, we went up to domoths and absolved, and you said lol, no thank you and all sat around on Prime doing other things? Is that really your argument?

    Lol, what

    Ok, so you guys didn't come to Faethorn with your even numbers and instead went up to absolve a Domoth that was going to flux in the next couple days? Is that really your argument?

    No, if you read my responses to Rivius, I said you are wrong and you didn't back off the Faethorn, which is why we absolved. Please keep up

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Twytch said:
    So what exactly does the South expect us to do? Change our daily schedules so that we can all play at the same time? Because I can tell you that's not happening -- you don't get to dictate when we play, and what we can or can't do when we're in Lusternia. We do things when it's not your prime time. We also do things when its your prime time. We initiate conflict, and we respond to conflict being initiated. None of these have been disputed aside from a lively use of semantics here and there.
    How about not feeling big and bad for raiding when you know there's nobody who can stop you?  That would be a good start.  I mean, I never really praised Nienla for that (except when we were responding to Seren's elder-thing and had a bounty on Elders, but that's done now, thankfully).  It's just not a super-praiseworthy feat, certainly nothing to trot out on the forums as an example of "beneficial / productive conflict" (just like the example Nienla set was nothing to laud).
    image
  • Also want to point out that "north" == Aeden if we're talking about the absolves. The rest of us found out when he started absolving in the cases where I was logged in beforehand.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    Xenthos said:
    Twytch said:
    So what exactly does the South expect us to do? Change our daily schedules so that we can all play at the same time? Because I can tell you that's not happening -- you don't get to dictate when we play, and what we can or can't do when we're in Lusternia. We do things when it's not your prime time. We also do things when its your prime time. We initiate conflict, and we respond to conflict being initiated. None of these have been disputed aside from a lively use of semantics here and there.
    How about not feeling big and bad for raiding when you know there's nobody who can stop you?  That would be a good start.  I mean, I never really praised Nienla for that (except when we were responding to Seren's elder-thing and had a bounty on Elders, but that's done now, thankfully).  It's just not a super-praiseworthy feat, certainly nothing to trot out on the forums as an example of "beneficial / productive conflict" (just like the example Nienla set was nothing to laud).
    ...

    Literally no one has done that. Celina started this shitshow with a gripe about absolves.

    image
  • edited April 2016
    Maligorn said:
    Twytch said:
    Twytch said:

    The point is simple: stop avoiding the game
    Please read my previous post. We're not avoiding the game, we're playing during our peak time. Just because it doesn't happen to be yours does not mean we should bend our schedules backwards just so you can feel happy about yourself.

    We are also not avoiding conflict. We stole an upgrade of Life from you guys, we captured Knowledge when there were fairly equal numbers on both sides (since Hallifax couldn't assist). We repeatedly went up during the War absolves. I believe you even died once during that incident.

    I mean, sure, if we did none of those things then it's completely reasonable to call us out for avoiding the happiest parts of Lusternia. Except, we did. We've even provided irrefutable evidence.
    I'll say it again. 

    We can see you. 

    You literally just named three examples, none of which were initiated by the North, as evidence of....how they initiate conflict when the South has people? Like, I just don't get it. What language am I speaking?
    Okay. I raided Glomdoring Prime 3 days ago with Dylara and some other newbie there to defend. I raided Glomdoring Ethereal approximately 4 hours ago with Tau already in there, seeing me. Athree and Dylara went up to help defend. I initiated those raids, I even got a couple of kills.

    Also, your argument was how the North avoided conflict, now it's about initiating conflict. Now that I've debunked even that, what's your next move?

    EDIT: Before we get into the "they're not real combatants" argument... Dylara was present in at least one of the absolves. She and Tau, I'm pretty sure, have access to discretionaries (which they used). I'm not even a good combatant that I require the likes of Xenthos or Crek to be beaten back.
    Please read my initial post. I cannot help you, I am not an English teacher. If we have to start with how to understand the words people are writing, we're just not going to get very far. 

    The literacy struggle is freaking real, man.
    Celina complains about changing your argument halfway through. Does the same thing and calls you illiterate for it.

    Celina spews out bullshit and expects people to agree with her and not post several different instances of how she's wrong.

    We're all the illiterate ones, guys.
    I've been nice enough to make sure I absolved and upgraded Justice multiple times when there was competition around, because I thought it would be fun if both sides get to compete. Sorry to see the North continues their trend of waiting until I'm not logged in to do the same.

    The criticisms about avoiding conflict aren't fair though, right? Such unhealthy attitudes about conflict. 
    DON'T WORRY KIDS, I'll help. Let's sound out the words together.

    Celina's literally been talking about initiating absolves since the very first post. 

    Do I need to say it in German? Swahili? Drunk latin with an irish accent? How. HOW IS READING SO HARD. YOU PLAY A TEXT GAME.
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy
    In any case, North, you do you. Keep fighting and keep doing your best. But don't worry about making anybody proud or happy of what you accomplish except yourselves. Otherwise, you'll never be happy.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Twytch said:

    Okay. I raided Glomdoring Prime 3 days ago with Dylara and some other newbie there to defend. I raided Glomdoring Ethereal approximately 4 hours ago with Tau already in there, seeing me. Athree and Dylara went up to help defend. I initiated those raids, I even got a couple of kills.

    Also, your argument was how the North avoided conflict, now it's about initiating conflict. Now that I've debunked even that, what's your next move?

    EDIT: Before we get into the "they're not real combatants" argument... Dylara was present in at least one of the absolves. She and Tau, I'm pretty sure, have access to discretionaries (which they used). I'm not even a good combatant that I require the likes of Xenthos or Crek to be beaten back.

    Maligorn said:
    ...

    Literally no one has done that. Celina started this shitshow with a gripe about absolves.
    If by "literally no one has done that," you mean "I do not know what literally no one means," then you would be correct.
    image
  • Synkarin said:
    Rivius said:
    Synkarin said:
    Rivius said:
    Uh, yea
    Synkarin said:
    Lol what

    Ok, so you guys went to Faethorn waiting for us to fight more, we went up to domoths and absolved, and you said lol, no thank you and all sat around on Prime doing other things? Is that really your argument?


    Uh, yeah. Are you kidding? You already had a numbers advantage by that point and decided to go create a bigger advantage elsewhere and then challenge to try to draw us in. We're not stupid lol. These sort of tactics can be seen a mile away amd are kind of ironic when you want to spew your Fairweather fighter rhetoric everywhere

    We had an advantage by like 2 people. And no, you all ran off back to your orgs, which is why we absolved. Because you all left. No one was sitting in faethorn waiting for us to fight. The argument that you still wanted to fight, but then said 'no thank you' to the absolve is silly and pure fancy. 'we wanted to fight, but only on our terms, in the way we wanted, when we had the clear advantage' is basically what you're saying.

    Not really. That's actually what you were saying! You seem to be getting us mixed up :)

    I never said you guys were in faethorn waiting for us, I've actually denied that saying you weren't, which lead to us absolving. You and Demartel are the ones saying you were in Faethorn waiting for us, but then decided to avoid conflict by not contesting the absolve, meaning you wanted to fight, but only on your terms. I mean, feel free to try and explain how you are not saying that, but that's how it reads to me. Nice Try though :):):)

    According to Xenthos you went to Domoth 2 minutes after we vacated Ethereal Glomdoring, I mean he has vehemently argued that point. So again, instead of coming in to Faethorn and fighting us you went up to absolve a fluxing Domoth. So we went and dealt with the things we needed to deal with.

    Do you honestly sit there and not see what is really being said all along here? I had assumed you were an educated man.

    Your side is crying that we are doing ti wrong, over and over. Our side is crying that you are doing it wrong, over and over.

    It is a freaking game. Get over it, or take a break if you are so mentally invested in it that it clouds every sense of reasonable thought in your mind. Take your kids out and play with them (Note this is not a "be a good dad" statement. It is what I do when I need a break from the game. They make me realise that a game is a game and there are more important things to get in a huff over)
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Note: I said we went to domoth 5 minutes after, not 2.  That was plenty of time to check Faethorn, note that people weren't there, ask "Hey, want to go absolve to lure them back out?," hear "Sure," and go up to start.
    image
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    This game would be so much more fun if half the combatants didn't treat fights like they're a struggle over penis buffs.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    I'm just glad I made it before entire pages were deleted.
    image
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    Look, I think I've proven that we're more than willing to take a fight into Faethorn, even if we are outnumbered.

    Hell @Demartel - @Twytch and I fought you and @Avurekhos in Maeve Gardens after chasing you out of Etherglom in his meld and killed both of you in it (well, techinically Avu was out of it at that time, but we were in his meld when you died, and he was only out of it because he left it.)

    Is this really an argument you want to make? You weren't in faethorn, you had dispersed, otherwise we would have brought the fight to you, in Faethorn. As we've done numerous numerous times before.

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • edited April 2016
    Xenthos said:

    How about not feeling big and bad for raiding when you know there's nobody who can stop you?  That would be a good start.  I mean, I never really praised Nienla for that (except when we were responding to Seren's elder-thing and had a bounty on Elders, but that's done now, thankfully).  It's just not a super-praiseworthy feat, certainly nothing to trot out on the forums as an example of "beneficial / productive conflict" (just like the example Nienla set was nothing to laud).
    Um. I fought against three demigods, one druid and two monks, as an Astrologer who's not even Trans in all guild skills (my only Trans skill is Influence). My only kill method was literally Meteor/Storm, since I don't have access to either Shatterplex/Timequake yet. I fully expected to die, not to survive (much less grab a kill).

    It was a 3v1, with the 1 being the raider in a discretionary-empowered melded area (plus the whole monk/monk/druid vs  unitrans Astrologer thing). That's a fight that I feel like all of us who participated learned something out of (weird sentence construction here, but the thought should be clear). That's a good fight to me.

    EDIT: My AB, because it's hilariously barren and this is a tweet/rant

    Common Skills         Rank           Pool
    -------------         ------------   ------------
    Combat                Gifted         Melee 
    Discernment           Virtuoso       Intellect
    Highmagic             Master         Arcana (nope, no Gedulah)
    Planar                Virtuoso       Mysticism
    Discipline            Mythical       Willpower
    Environment           Adept          Communion (no Attune here, either)
    Influence             Transcendent   Magnetism (woo, CharismaticaAura)
    Dramatics             Master         Performance
    Arts                  Capable        Finearts
    Beastmastery          Inept          Magnetism (nope, no Beast curing)
    Aethercraft           Apprentice     Mysticism (not even a Bombard)

    Trade Skills          Rank           Pool
    -------------         ------------   ------------
    Tailoring             Inept          Finearts

    Guild Skills          Rank           Pool
    -------------         ------------   ------------
    Rituals               Mythical       Arcana
        Aeonics
    Cosmic                Mythical       Mysticism
        Harmonics
    Astrology             Mythical       Mysticism

    You have skills available for you to choose. Ent
    See you in Sapience.

  • Xenthos said:
    Note: I said we went to domoth 5 minutes after, not 2.  That was plenty of time to check Faethorn, note that people weren't there, ask "Hey, want to go absolve to lure them back out?," hear "Sure," and go up to start.
    For some reason Mudlet cut off 6 minutes of this log at the beginning, when I switched logging on and off again, to keep my file sizes small), but here is the last 3 -4 minutes of us in Faethorn waiting on you. So... where were you in that time and the 5 minutes prior to this?


    (Anonymous): Aeden says, "TARGET Munsia."
    [13:37:03.984]


    Bowing his head, Avurekhos curls his fingers and raises his hands up slowly until he clutches them into fists.
    A wind whispers throughout the forest, like small animals scratching in the dirt.
    [13:38:08.950]

    You follow Marshall Avurekhos Myeras, Wrath of the Silver Trinity southwest to twisting pathway into the wyrden mists.
    A fae knight says, "There is no place better in creation than Faethorn, the realm of Maeve."
    [13:38:45.178]


    [13:40:00.354] H:11300(100%) M:8300(100%) E:6800(100%) P:10(88) [dbkrexlr][Siam]-
    Bleuu has left the area.
    Aeden has left the area.
    You follow Marshall Avurekhos Myeras, Wrath of the Silver Trinity to Halls of the Spirits.
    Avurekhos has entered the area.
    [13:40:01.264]
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy
    Also we dispersed after the absolve started, not beforr. Because I specifically remember watching the absolve start and asking people in the room what they wanted to do.
  • Xenthos said:
    Note: I said we went to domoth 5 minutes after, not 2.  That was plenty of time to check Faethorn, note that people weren't there, ask "Hey, want to go absolve to lure them back out?," hear "Sure," and go up to start.


    That was just irrelevant there honestly.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    I think this comes down to the TAs thinking their way is right and that the North absolutely, positively must follow their example or they're PKing wrong.

    But I think the North is improving and will continue to improve, despite the constant attacks and antagonization OOC. Like Rivius said: you just keep doing you, because countering the gripes on the forums is unproductive when the gripers continue to not read or accept their own narratives on how things went down.

    image
  • Synkarin said:
    Look, I think I've proven that we're more than willing to take a fight into Faethorn, even if we are outnumbered.

    Hell @Demartel - @Twytch and I fought you and @Avurekhos in Maeve Gardens after chasing you out of Etherglom in his meld and killed both of you in it (well, techinically Avu was out of it at that time, but we were in his meld when you died, and he was only out of it because he left it.)

    Is this really an argument you want to make? You weren't in faethorn, you had dispersed, otherwise we would have brought the fight to you, in Faethorn. As we've done numerous numerous times before.


    I never once said you don't come into faethorn, I am well aware of your diving into things and I have never said a bad thing about you doing so or not doing so. What I did say  is in this instance you did not and instead went  to absolve a fluxing Domoth and then bitched when we didn't come to stop you. Kind of like how we are sitting here bitching that you didn't come into faethorn.
  • Shaddus said:
    This game would be so much more fun if half the combatants didn't treat fights like they're a struggle over penis buffs.

    I went through years of blowing cash on credits. I pissed it away. Not on holidays or a new TV... I blew it on get-a-bigger-YOU-KNOW-WHAT products - For Combat of course... Over and over again... I bought one artifact after another. I was like a prizefighter getting punched HARD, but being too stupid to hit the deck. SLAP! No better. SMACK! Money wasted. SLAM! As small as I always was... I felt lost.

    I was sick of being 'had' by these offers that were to good to be true.

    I decided to carve my own path. The last few years of my life have been dedicated to figuring out how to grow (in combat of course) the RIGHT WAY. Forget about expensive products that don't work such as pumps, weights, systems, heck even some enhancement pills. The methods I developed are based on research and the scientific method, not some late night TV sales pitch.

    After I developed and refined these methods I made a promise to help every man who wants to get bigger (and badder in combat). To show them how to grow. That's why I'm here. And that's why you're here. We're at the start of an exciting journey. Stick with it and the results are LIFE-CHANGING and PERMANENT.

    I'm going to reveal all my secrets. Every single one. And YOU are going to get bigger... A LOT BIGGER.

    (Obviously as a fighter, thats what this is about, of course it is)
    image
  • edited April 2016
    Dylara said:
    Shuyin said:
    I'm just glad I made it before entire pages were deleted.
    Me too, I learned I'm a scary pvp menace! Ten years of non-com status, poof!


    :ar!
    You should have both meteor and meteor storm messages by now. RAISE STAFF and be the hero!  :bz

    EDIT: Or that other thing. Treelife, I think?
    See you in Sapience.
  • Twytch said:
    Um. I fought against three demigods, one druid and two monks, as an Astrologer who's not even Trans in all guild skills (my only Trans skill is Influence). My only kill method was literally Meteor/Storm, since I don't have access to either Shatterplex/Timequake yet. I fully expected to die, not to survive (much less grab a kill).

    It was a 3v1, with the 1 being the raider in a discretionary-empowered melded area (plus the whole monk/monk/druid vs  unitrans Astrologer thing). That's a fight that I feel like all of us who participated learned something out of (weird sentence construction here, but the thought should be clear). That's a good fight to me.

    EDIT: My AB, because it's hilariously barren and this is a tweet/rant


    I want to clarify something, you fought against me, a notoriously known non-com (because I suck) who only just started learning pvp and my strategy so far is.. herbbane, vine and point cudgel wasps. I did up my game a little today and I made a demesne, that was kinda a first! Mind you, I did just get security status, so I was able to raise descretionaries! 

    Tau is a Druid right now, just learned the skills, doesn't have very many reflexes set up yet.

    And Athree, who forgot to def up apparently, who is a monk yeah.

    I was super thrilled I survived your meteor. I feel tanky. :x

    Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."

    The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
    Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.


  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    Demartel said:
    Synkarin said:
    Look, I think I've proven that we're more than willing to take a fight into Faethorn, even if we are outnumbered.

    Hell @Demartel - @Twytch and I fought you and @Avurekhos in Maeve Gardens after chasing you out of Etherglom in his meld and killed both of you in it (well, techinically Avu was out of it at that time, but we were in his meld when you died, and he was only out of it because he left it.)

    Is this really an argument you want to make? You weren't in faethorn, you had dispersed, otherwise we would have brought the fight to you, in Faethorn. As we've done numerous numerous times before.


    I never once said you don't come into faethorn, I am well aware of your diving into things and I have never said a bad thing about you doing so or not doing so. What I did say  is in this instance you did not and instead went  to absolve a fluxing Domoth and then bitched when we didn't come to stop you. Kind of like how we are sitting here bitching that you didn't come into faethorn.

    And I'm telling you that you didn't. You all pretty much all instantly dispersed so we went for the absolve. I typically jump into Faethorn after you guys to bail to see what's going on (numbers, who, where, find break points) etc.

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • Dylara said:
    Twytch said:
    Um. I fought against three demigods, one druid and two monks, as an Astrologer who's not even Trans in all guild skills (my only Trans skill is Influence). My only kill method was literally Meteor/Storm, since I don't have access to either Shatterplex/Timequake yet. I fully expected to die, not to survive (much less grab a kill).

    It was a 3v1, with the 1 being the raider in a discretionary-empowered melded area (plus the whole monk/monk/druid vs  unitrans Astrologer thing). That's a fight that I feel like all of us who participated learned something out of (weird sentence construction here, but the thought should be clear). That's a good fight to me.

    EDIT: My AB, because it's hilariously barren and this is a tweet/rant


    I want to clarify something, you fought against me, a notoriously known non-com (because I suck) who only just started learning pvp and my strategy so far is.. herbbane, vine and point cudgel wasps. I did up my game a little today and I made a demesne, that was kinda a first! Mind you, I did just get security status, so I was able to raise descretionaries! 

    Tau is a Druid right now, just learned the skills, doesn't have very many reflexes set up yet.

    And Athree, who forgot to def up apparently, who is a monk yeah.

    I was super thrilled I survived your meteor. I feel tanky. :x
    See my above post! Druid is a pain to pin down. Also, meteor/storm is fire/magic. Beef up your resistances to those and you're golden against meteors.
    See you in Sapience.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    Demartel is literally posting logs of proof. What is this even

    image
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    edited April 2016
    I actually think the game would be more fun if more people fought like their RL penises would get chopped off if they lost and that we kept talking about it on the forums. 

    It's way more interesting and real (due to the human element drama) than another c/p RP event full of says and emotes.

    With that said, it's great that it seems that there's more fighting, but just because there's more fighting, it doesn't mean that people won't be bitches and upgrade/absolve when there's little chance for failure. It's definitely not the wrong way to play (anyone who says otherwise is delusional), but it's perfectly okay to call it out and declare it lame

    You guys are just arguing over minor details like who came to what when, how many people were there, how many people count as combatants (Sidd counts as 11), what timezone this happened, and what color underwear Celina wore that day (trick question, none). The fact that there was fighting is something to enjoy, win or lose.

    image
This discussion has been closed.