I would settle for a meaningful summary of the skill mechanics in the skill's help file. Something like, HELP HARMONICS: "This skill relies mostly on passive effects that either heal a friendly target or hinder an enemy." Except have them written by people who understand how the skills work instead of me so they're actually useful. Right now you don't actually have a good way of knowing class mechanics when you pick your class. You either ask around once you're in game or you pay a bunch of lessons and help for the best. Unless I'm missing something blindingly obvious, which is always possible.
That sounds like a great idea! The player run wiki would be a great place for that sort of summary. After all, you know the day to day feel of the skills better than we do.
You should post this idea in that thread.
- There's probably artifacts that could also be broken down to some degree and sold in smaller parts. The balloon comes to mind, if you just bought the balloon and then paid for destinations it might ultimately cost the same but be smaller investments over time, it would also be more easily extendable as you could just release new destinations for sale as new zones open up.
There is a reason why the balloon is so much. There are already 'bixs to the three current areas it goes to (lirangasha, Dio, icewynd), not to mention that there are curio collections that do the same thing basically. The whole point of the balloon is that it, supposedly, gets new destinations as new prime areas outside the Basin of Life are released.
True, but it could also be a compartmental thing, do we really need three different ways to get to them or could it just be sold as the balloon combining all three of the bixes into one item? If the travel time/restrictions of the balloon matched up it'd just be a QOl artifact.
I would settle for a meaningful summary of the skill mechanics in the skill's help file. Something like, HELP HARMONICS: "This skill relies mostly on passive effects that either heal a friendly target or hinder an enemy." Except have them written by people who understand how the skills work instead of me so they're actually useful. Right now you don't actually have a good way of knowing class mechanics when you pick your class. You either ask around once you're in game or you pay a bunch of lessons and help for the best. Unless I'm missing something blindingly obvious, which is always possible.
That sounds like a great idea! The player run wiki would be a great place for that sort of summary. After all, you know the day to day feel of the skills better than we do.
You should post this idea in that thread.
- There's probably artifacts that could also be broken down to some degree and sold in smaller parts. The balloon comes to mind, if you just bought the balloon and then paid for destinations it might ultimately cost the same but be smaller investments over time, it would also be more easily extendable as you could just release new destinations for sale as new zones open up.
There is a reason why the balloon is so much. There are already 'bixs to the three current areas it goes to (lirangasha, Dio, icewynd), not to mention that there are curio collections that do the same thing basically. The whole point of the balloon is that it, supposedly, gets new destinations as new prime areas outside the Basin of Life are released.
True, but it could also be a compartmental thing, do we really need three different ways to get to them or could it just be sold as the balloon combining all three of the bixes into one item? If the travel time/restrictions of the balloon matched up it'd just be a QOl artifact.
The balloon travel time is ~30 seconds. The 'bix are just touch the item and is an instant travel and can be used on prime, ethereal, or elemental (vs just prime like the balloon). To me, the balloon is not really about combining the three bixes into one item and more about the future places that may get released that it would linked to.
Sure, the balloon could be made faster. It's also already a 100 db discount (though I'm not seeing a lirangsha bix), every area added means a free 300 db artifact at the cost of a 15-20 second travel time. I've also been told that them working underground is not a bug (result of a bug report cause it just seems weird).
At the end of the day, it's a possibility, an example of a way that we could have artifacts designed and priced differently that might make them more widely purchased and make things feel more affordable.
Sure, the balloon could be made faster. It's also already a 100 db discount (though I'm not seeing a lirangsha bix), every area added means a free 300 db artifact at the cost of a 15-20 second travel time. I've also been told that them working underground is not a bug (result of a bug report cause it just seems weird).
At the end of the day, it's a possibility, an example of a way that we could have artifacts designed and priced differently that might make them more widely purchased and make things feel more affordable.
It is a balloon that actually flies up and to the locations, working underground would be weird.
That aside, I think you are looking at it as only it only going 3 places instead of the possible X number of places. Perhaps I'm just wrong, but people don't buy the balloon for the current locations as buying a 'bix is faster travel time and allowed to be used on more than just prime. The balloon's draw (at least what I see it being) is that potential for new locations to be added to the balloon without having to 'buy' more.
Sure, the balloon could be made faster. It's also already a 100 db discount (though I'm not seeing a lirangsha bix), every area added means a free 300 db artifact at the cost of a 15-20 second travel time. I've also been told that them working underground is not a bug (result of a bug report cause it just seems weird).
At the end of the day, it's a possibility, an example of a way that we could have artifacts designed and priced differently that might make them more widely purchased and make things feel more affordable.
It is a balloon that actually flies up and to the locations, working underground would be weird.
That aside, I think you are looking at it as only it only going 3 places instead of the possible X number of places. Perhaps I'm just wrong, but people don't buy the balloon for the current locations as buying a 'bix is faster travel time and allowed to be used on more than just prime. The balloon's draw (at least what I see it being) is that potential for new locations to be added to the balloon without having to 'buy' more.
It does, it is, it was bugged and is apparently not one. I effectively imagine it now as you shooting through the undervault action movie style. It's also not affected by cubix stuff, likely because you need to drop it and enter.
I think you're a little hung up on how things work now and focusing pretty heavily on one thought, in a discussion about doing things differently.
The class slot idea is basically the same, rather than having a large investment for an item that you only even need to get once, you can instead break it up and get people to spend smaller amounts, which can increase the number of people willing and able to spend that money. It may also increase the amount of money you make in the long term.
In the class slot idea, should Estarra decide to add a seventh archetype people would buy another slot to access it on top of the lessons.
You could even add in dormancy slots to break up the cord, people might only be able to make a skill dormant if they have the slot for it. Each additional class slot should come with three slots so you have just enough to be able to take advantage of those without extra expense but if you want to be a wiccan with flexed hexes, healing, and astrology you'd need to pay a little.
Juggling the numbers, a commune member would probably have a potential 1700 credits to spend there (If you use Aetolia's model for class slots, and 50 credits per extra dormant skill if it only considers specs/full skills and high/lowmagic, more if you incorporate trades). Then you can sell modifiers to the system, shorter cooldowns probably, maybe tattoo slots, the aethersuit's value to me is directly proportional to how much class flexing you want to do.
More classes mean more weapon runes, more customisation options for the individual. Just lots of small transactions over time, that could generate more money than the single item such as the tam. Might not get everyone buying literally every class, but in theory it could be balanced out against a larger group of people spending smaller amounts more often.
Hm I am not able to edit my previous post so please excuse this double post really quickly...
I would like to offer a thank you to the people of Hallifax today who made my return after three months of not feeling well really nice. I'm sad I didn't get into the crowd back in October! @Xeii was super nice to me even though I went really afk on her a few days ago, @Yarith and @Gero have been very entertaining as guild leaders and I learned that the Institute will extend our reach to the Void above with our aslaran who occasionally speaks in third person.
This is really a quality of living argument. Those that have found a way to afford and justify those expenditures will always tell those that haven't to work harder or live within their means and enjoy what they do have.
Not everyone has a solution to their problem. And if it takes for that person to step up and make the complaint known so that we can collectively find a solution then so be it. A part of constructive criticism (even if it sounds like whinging) is not looking to others to resolve the problem, but realising the problem stems from within and working towards a change that works for everyone.
Do we want better quality of living for the entire playerbase? Do we want player retention to increase? Is this something that would resolve both problems without damaging the financial stability of Lusternia itself?
No. I'll reiterate, complaint without solution is whining. If you identify something as a problem it's entirely reasonable to expect a proposed solution one can work with. Anything less is belly-aching and does not give anything to work with. There's a huge difference between "Glamrock is bad and you should feel bad for buying it" and "Glamrock could be vastly improved by not having these ridiculous restrictions." Former is belly-aching. Latter is a good suggestion that I can get behind.
And frankly, Glamrock isn't "basic QoL". Once you remove the overly restrictive time-limit on the clothing sets, it essentially means you never have to get a tailor for anything but robes ever again.
... actually I can see that being the reason for the restrictive time-limit in the first place. Maybe the glamrock should be editted so you instead feed clothes into coutures to build sets that way... would be a bit overly complex though. But fun I think.
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
Achaea has a (watered-down, admittedly) version of the Glamrock mechanic called outfits. Everyone has access to it, right out the gate. So, I dispute the notion that the Glamrock isn't basic QoL, and that it deserves, what, 100cr as a price? (Not sure exactly how much it costs)
Edit addition:
From my perspective, the idea of spending thousands of lessons and hundreds of credits to get the very same functionalities I can find elsewhere for free just finalises my decision to spend 0 things here.
Take Achaea, for example. There are a lot of QoL mechanics that make playing the game very, very enjoyable, whether you're a casual high-schooler with limited funds or a hardcore working person who can bankroll him- or herself.
It made me want to stay in the game. Eventually, it made me want to put some monetary investment in it. I reckon I'm not alone in this. Echoing previous posts: it is healthier for a game to be supported by 100 people paying $10 each, than 10 paying $100.
We have got to stop comparing different IREs when it comes to What's Freely Available. Or are we going to say there's nothing we have access to that they don't? They are different games with different - and entirely separate - internal economies. And I'm going to repeat what was said earlier because I think it was actually a more reasonable comment than it was credited: Retirement's a thing. If you really think Lusty is getting it dry, then up sticks and go to Achaea which is apparently a hundred times better. ETA: I'm not saying "If you don't like it **** off", I'm saying "Why are you continuing to do something that you apparently don't like, while pointing at better alternatives?"
Well, okay. Let's just leave Lusternia as it is. There is absolutely nothing to be improved upon. Its perfection is 100% incomparable.
Also, I think the only thing Lus has uniquely is influencing. Everyone else has a plethora of combat systems, serverside curing and balance queuing, etc.
Yeah I really like the train cart that said "we shouldn't even think about bringing nifty little things from the other games to Lusternia, because no comparison amirite."
In a more constructive manner, we should look at what other games are doing, and incorporate the things done right whilst avoiding the things done wrong. Why is there a penchant to reinvent the wheel? Compare and improve. Don't waste time trying things out that others have already done.
Liquidrift, fot example, originated in Lusternia and was incorporated by other IREs. Serverside curing started in Aetolia and was adopted by Imperian and Achaea to great success (sorry, FirstAid, you're not included). In-game pathwalking (not just simple landmarks) was massively overhauled in Imperian, and was followed by Aetolia and Achaea.
There is 0 reason to say that is Lusternia should be isolated from the other IREs. That's ridiculous.
Okay, now that we've gone back to being constructive, I'll jump in again:
Great post (not even sarcastically). My point is not that we shouldn't take anything from other games. It's this: That another game has 'free' access to a mechanic does not mean that Lusty shouldn't have it paywalled. They are different games, and we likely have free access to mechanics that they have paywalled. If that isn't the case, then hands up. Further, 1 Lusternian credits =! 1 Achaean credit. They cost the same amount on the website, sure, but because of the different internal economies access to credits can be very different.
Okay, now that we've gone back to being constructive, I'll jump in again:
Great post (not even sarcastically). My point is not that we shouldn't take anything from other games. It's this: That another game has 'free' access to a mechanic does not mean that Lusty shouldn't have it paywalled. They are different games, and we likely have free access to mechanics that they have paywalled. If that isn't the case, then hands up. Further, 1 Lusternian credits =! 1 Achaean credit. They cost the same amount on the website, sure, but because of the different internal economies access to credits can be very different.
Can you actually provide any examples of things we have free that other games don't? We might have a slightly better vial mechanic though achaea seems to have ported it across, otherwise nothing is really coming to mind.
I'd also point out that it seems a lot of the common artifacts are priced the same. The bix equivalents are 2k, the beast collars are 250, trans skills have the same credit value. Over time they've diverged to varying degrees, but there's still that baseline comparison in value especially with things like classes, like... we might not have as many class artifacts but we have more opportunities to invest lessons through skillchoices.
----
Also, the suggestion that people go elsewhere, especially the idea that this is the best option, is an issue in itself. Like, factions are coming because the playerbase has shrunk, and is still shrinking afaik, the reasons why people are leaving/not getting hooked are factors that need to be looked into to prevent that, hence things like the combat overhaul and factions. If the answer to people actually talking about their concerns is "eh, just go to achaea" then we have fewer people, and the source of the complaint will probably turn away other players.
... actually I can see that being the reason for the restrictive time-limit in the first place.
I disagree with this idea that glamrock slots shouldn't last indefinitely because then people will never need tailoring again. People already do not ever need tailoring again. Clothes are already not necessary beyond isolated utility needs (warm outerwear, shabby accessories, etc.) because everybody's main 'outfit' is their armor.
Very few people care or notice what others are wearing. The reality of artifacts inhibits this kind of RP. You MUST ignore what others are wearing, because otherwise you would have to address the fact that many people are wearing combinations like: 2x glasses + 1 monocle + 1 goggles, 4x hats, 5x footwear, 27x brooch, and so on.
Glamrock is for the small minority of people who want to care what they are wearing, and like I have said in another thread on this recently: People who like pretty things are always going to make/buy/design more pretty things.
Let's say that they did change the artifact though, to make it more desirable to people who don't really care about pretty things, but are mildly annoyed by their arti-spam descriptions, and just want to plug in 1 outfit and have that stick forever.
In this case, these people will be buying tailored clothes at least once, where previously they would have bought them zero times. Oh and they're also buying the 250 credit artifact.
It is absolutely stupid that this change has not already been made.
I'm either not expressing myself very clearly, people aren't reading what I'm actually writing, or this is One Of Those topics that nobody is going to change their minds on. It's probably all three. Genuinely, thanks to anybody who made a constructive response to anything I wrote. I'm out
... actually I can see that being the reason for the restrictive time-limit in the first place.
I disagree with this idea that glamrock slots shouldn't last indefinitely because then people will never need tailoring again. People already do not ever need tailoring again. Clothes are already not necessary beyond isolated utility needs (warm outerwear, shabby accessories, etc.) because everybody's main 'outfit' is their armor.
Very few people care or notice what others are wearing. The reality of artifacts inhibits this kind of RP. You MUST ignore what others are wearing, because otherwise you would have to address the fact that many people are wearing combinations like: 2x glasses + 1 monocle + 1 goggles, 4x hats, 5x footwear, 27x brooch, and so on.
Glamrock is for the small minority of people who want to care what they are wearing, and like I have said in another thread on this recently: People who like pretty things are always going to make/buy/design more pretty things.
Let's say that they did change the artifact though, to make it more desirable to people who don't really care about pretty things, but are mildly annoyed by their arti-spam descriptions, and just want to plug in 1 outfit and have that stick forever.
In this case, these people will be buying tailored clothes at least once, where previously they would have bought them zero times. Oh and they're also buying the 250 credit artifact.
It is absolutely stupid that this change has not already been made.
I actually think Achaea's version of liquid rift is now better. Fill up your rift, do an initial refill of a vial, and done. It will now automatically refill from the rift, no teardrop sigils required.
The one 'free' thing Lusternia has uniquely, mechanics-wise, is the bound credits from achievements (looking at you, daily bard/scholar/pilgrim/power). And Lusternia has, by a healthy margin, more quests (and more interesting quest mechanics, too).
Do other games have "free" artifacts (here they are expressed as quest curios)?
Note: "Free" meaning that you get to invest a great deal of time in hunting them down. They also have a bonus in that you can then sell them for actual credits if you want.
My impression was that if you like X game so much, and dislike Y game so much, go play X game and enjoy yourself. Not "go away, we don't want you." Seems like some people just genuinely don't want to be here.
The draws to Lusternia have always been lore, culture, and RP environment. Achaea's draw has always definitively not been that. It is the PKers haven with RP as an optional DLC. So if you are looking for the same QoL and attention to mechanics as you find in Achaea in other IREs, you will eternally be disappointed. They will always have the ability to develop, adopt, and implement changes faster than other IREs.
As someone who enjoys RP and PK, I never enjoyed Achaea as much as Lusternia. It felt surprisingly empty as far as interaction went given how enormous the playerbase was. That's my experience though, and your dislike of Lusternia is yours. Play what you like, don't play what you don't. Don't be so unpleasant about it.
edit: that's not to say Lusternia cannot improve, or Achaea for that matter. Just don't have to be so "I'm here but I'm not paying you anything!" about it.
Known Aliases: Celina/Cyndarin/Fire Jesus/The Night/That Bitch who griefed us
Comments
At the end of the day, it's a possibility, an example of a way that we could have artifacts designed and priced differently that might make them more widely purchased and make things feel more affordable.
That aside, I think you are looking at it as only it only going 3 places instead of the possible X number of places. Perhaps I'm just wrong, but people don't buy the balloon for the current locations as buying a 'bix is faster travel time and allowed to be used on more than just prime. The balloon's draw (at least what I see it being) is that potential for new locations to be added to the balloon without having to 'buy' more.
I think you're a little hung up on how things work now and focusing pretty heavily on one thought, in a discussion about doing things differently.
The class slot idea is basically the same, rather than having a large investment for an item that you only even need to get once, you can instead break it up and get people to spend smaller amounts, which can increase the number of people willing and able to spend that money. It may also increase the amount of money you make in the long term.
In the class slot idea, should Estarra decide to add a seventh archetype people would buy another slot to access it on top of the lessons.
You could even add in dormancy slots to break up the cord, people might only be able to make a skill dormant if they have the slot for it. Each additional class slot should come with three slots so you have just enough to be able to take advantage of those without extra expense but if you want to be a wiccan with flexed hexes, healing, and astrology you'd need to pay a little.
Juggling the numbers, a commune member would probably have a potential 1700 credits to spend there (If you use Aetolia's model for class slots, and 50 credits per extra dormant skill if it only considers specs/full skills and high/lowmagic, more if you incorporate trades).
Then you can sell modifiers to the system, shorter cooldowns probably, maybe tattoo slots, the aethersuit's value to me is directly proportional to how much class flexing you want to do.
More classes mean more weapon runes, more customisation options for the individual. Just lots of small transactions over time, that could generate more money than the single item such as the tam. Might not get everyone buying literally every class, but in theory it could be balanced out against a larger group of people spending smaller amounts more often.
I would like to offer a thank you to the people of Hallifax today who made my return after three months of not feeling well really nice. I'm sad I didn't get into the crowd back in October! @Xeii was super nice to me even though I went really afk on her a few days ago, @Yarith and @Gero have been very entertaining as guild leaders and I learned that the Institute will extend our reach to the Void above with our aslaran who occasionally speaks in third person.
Tldr -> Thank you Hallifax!
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
And frankly, Glamrock isn't "basic QoL". Once you remove the overly restrictive time-limit on the clothing sets, it essentially means you never have to get a tailor for anything but robes ever again.
... actually I can see that being the reason for the restrictive time-limit in the first place. Maybe the glamrock should be editted so you instead feed clothes into coutures to build sets that way... would be a bit overly complex though. But fun I think.
(another name I considered was Sialia since that's part of the name of a species name of blue bird)
Edit addition:
From my perspective, the idea of spending thousands of lessons and hundreds of credits to get the very same functionalities I can find elsewhere for free just finalises my decision to spend 0 things here.
Take Achaea, for example. There are a lot of QoL mechanics that make playing the game very, very enjoyable, whether you're a casual high-schooler with limited funds or a hardcore working person who can bankroll him- or herself.
It made me want to stay in the game. Eventually, it made me want to put some monetary investment in it. I reckon I'm not alone in this. Echoing previous posts: it is healthier for a game to be supported by 100 people paying $10 each, than 10 paying $100.
Accountability is necessary.
Also, I think the only thing Lus has uniquely is influencing. Everyone else has a plethora of combat systems, serverside curing and balance queuing, etc.
Accountability is necessary.
Accountability is necessary.
---
In a more constructive manner, we should look at what other games are doing, and incorporate the things done right whilst avoiding the things done wrong. Why is there a penchant to reinvent the wheel? Compare and improve. Don't waste time trying things out that others have already done.
Liquidrift, fot example, originated in Lusternia and was incorporated by other IREs. Serverside curing started in Aetolia and was adopted by Imperian and Achaea to great success (sorry, FirstAid, you're not included). In-game pathwalking (not just simple landmarks) was massively overhauled in Imperian, and was followed by Aetolia and Achaea.
There is 0 reason to say that is Lusternia should be isolated from the other IREs. That's ridiculous.
Accountability is necessary.
Great post (not even sarcastically). My point is not that we shouldn't take anything from other games. It's this: That another game has 'free' access to a mechanic does not mean that Lusty shouldn't have it paywalled. They are different games, and we likely have free access to mechanics that they have paywalled. If that isn't the case, then hands up. Further, 1 Lusternian credits =! 1 Achaean credit. They cost the same amount on the website, sure, but because of the different internal economies access to credits can be very different.
We might have a slightly better vial mechanic though achaea seems to have ported it across, otherwise nothing is really coming to mind.
I'd also point out that it seems a lot of the common artifacts are priced the same. The bix equivalents are 2k, the beast collars are 250, trans skills have the same credit value. Over time they've diverged to varying degrees, but there's still that baseline comparison in value especially with things like classes, like... we might not have as many class artifacts but we have more opportunities to invest lessons through skillchoices.
----
Also, the suggestion that people go elsewhere, especially the idea that this is the best option, is an issue in itself.
Like, factions are coming because the playerbase has shrunk, and is still shrinking afaik, the reasons why people are leaving/not getting hooked are factors that need to be looked into to prevent that, hence things like the combat overhaul and factions.
If the answer to people actually talking about their concerns is "eh, just go to achaea" then we have fewer people, and the source of the complaint will probably turn away other players.
I disagree with this idea that glamrock slots shouldn't last indefinitely because then people will never need tailoring again. People already do not ever need tailoring again. Clothes are already not necessary beyond isolated utility needs (warm outerwear, shabby accessories, etc.) because everybody's main 'outfit' is their armor.
Very few people care or notice what others are wearing. The reality of artifacts inhibits this kind of RP. You MUST ignore what others are wearing, because otherwise you would have to address the fact that many people are wearing combinations like: 2x glasses + 1 monocle + 1 goggles, 4x hats, 5x footwear, 27x brooch, and so on.
Glamrock is for the small minority of people who want to care what they are wearing, and like I have said in another thread on this recently: People who like pretty things are always going to make/buy/design more pretty things.
Let's say that they did change the artifact though, to make it more desirable to people who don't really care about pretty things, but are mildly annoyed by their arti-spam descriptions, and just want to plug in 1 outfit and have that stick forever.
In this case, these people will be buying tailored clothes at least once, where previously they would have bought them zero times. Oh and they're also buying the 250 credit artifact.
It is absolutely stupid that this change has not already been made.
Vive l'apostrophe!
The one 'free' thing Lusternia has uniquely, mechanics-wise, is the bound credits from achievements (looking at you, daily bard/scholar/pilgrim/power). And Lusternia has, by a healthy margin, more quests (and more interesting quest mechanics, too).
Accountability is necessary.
Note: "Free" meaning that you get to invest a great deal of time in hunting them down. They also have a bonus in that you can then sell them for actual credits if you want.
Accountability is necessary.
Baby come baaaaack
The draws to Lusternia have always been lore, culture, and RP environment. Achaea's draw has always definitively not been that. It is the PKers haven with RP as an optional DLC. So if you are looking for the same QoL and attention to mechanics as you find in Achaea in other IREs, you will eternally be disappointed. They will always have the ability to develop, adopt, and implement changes faster than other IREs.
As someone who enjoys RP and PK, I never enjoyed Achaea as much as Lusternia. It felt surprisingly empty as far as interaction went given how enormous the playerbase was. That's my experience though, and your dislike of Lusternia is yours. Play what you like, don't play what you don't. Don't be so unpleasant about it.
edit: that's not to say Lusternia cannot improve, or Achaea for that matter. Just don't have to be so "I'm here but I'm not paying you anything!" about it.