Bonds in Combat

Zvoltz

This discussion was created from comments split from: Lack of Raves VI: Rave Today, Tweet Tomorrow.

Taevyn

Raves for revolt fights. Thanks for playing, even if it was a bit one sided. Thx bonds.

[AreaCheck]: There are 16 enemies in the area, and 13 allies or neutrals.

Synkarin

(should stop blaming bonds, it's not bonds fault, anything bonds blocks, you can block too turns out).

Maligorn

LoL @ bonds not being completely overpowered

Taevyn

Yes. But we can't pull anyone OUT of bonds. Which was more the point.

Anyway, not the place for it.

Synkarin

You can pull people out of bonds @Taevyn - just not with Rad or empress.

Go ahead and explain why bonds is sooo overpowered @Maligorn - this ought to be good.

Falaeron

Let's not do this here.

Rave for super quick Hallifax influencing.

Taevyn

Right, I can. But we all we could really do was tackle or scissor. And I for sure and not going to walk into a room with sixteen people and possibly pits. And it was an indoor room, so we can't exactly fly, prismatic scissor.

Tarkenton

Taevyn said:

ヽ｀ヽ｀、ヽヽ｀ヽ｀、｀ヽ｀、ヽヽ｀ヽ｀、ヽヽ｀༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ☂ ɪᴛs ʀᴀɪɴɪɴɢ sᴀʟᴛ! ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ☂ ヽ｀ヽ｀、ヽヽ｀ヽ｀、｀ヽ｀、ヽヽ｀ヽ｀、ヽヽ｀

Crek

Pretty sure I've seen Raeri and Kelly tackle or carry people out of our bonds. And I've seen you guys rush it before (and kill our Night user so YOU get the benefits of bonds until they come back).

Maligorn

Synkarin said:

You can pull people out of bonds @Taevyn - just not with Rad or empress.

Go ahead and explain why bonds is sooo overpowered @Maligorn - this ought to be good.

A portable room distort that can be tailored to alliances? Greaaaat.

You can argue that bonds hurts the casters as much as the enemies, but it really doesn't. The only thing to do to a bonds room is to rush it, or else be picked off slowly in a rad game that only has one winner.

And rushing a prepared room is stupid.

Rivius

Bonds and rad have legitimate balance issues, but it's uncertain we'll ever revisit that meaningfully despite the beautiful, constructive attitudes expressed here. Report 326 had some decent ideas imo. But that was during the period of the vague, unhelpful "We don't find this to be necessary" responses. So who knows.

Synkarin

Here's the point. Everything bonds stops, you can stop by just shielding. 

Literally the only advantage that bonds gives is that it lets you not require a shield against rad/empress. That's it. That isn't some ungodly OP advantage that can't be countered. It isn't some ungodly advantage that you guys can't compete against. It simply replaces having to shield against two (and maybe 2 other) forced movement types. Is it nice? Sure thing, not having to worry about shield is great. Is it stupidly OP that it automatically wins fights. No, no it isn't. 

You're not losing because of bonds.

And the surely the 'beautiful constructive attitudes' Rivius references must be the complain for change attitude displayed because you couldn't throw rad.

Nienla

Bonds has been countered before and even used against us. It has legitimate counter play and said legitimate counter play has been used against us in the past. Additionally, a good chunk of the mechanics in Night function as double-edged swords and Bonds falls under that category since it can just as easily be used against us as well.

The problem is that it provides some counter play to the North's typical strategy of sitting in a meld and waiting for us to come to you for fury or what have you. Turtling isn't always the best strategy. You're going to have to rush, just as we just did.

In any event... yay Glomdoring. Yay for being around for a revolt for once. Wuwu.

Vivet

Was a good revolt. I just wish I was less derpy, but it comes with the decreased activity.

Rivius

Nienla said:

Bonds has been countered before and even used against us. It has legitimate counter play and said legitimate counter play has been used against us in the past. Additionally, a good chunk of the mechanics in Night function as double-edged swords and Bonds falls under that category since it can just as easily be used against us as well.

Be more specific then about the legitimate counterplay and what exactly is a double-edged sword in night. Note that I'm not saying we need to delete bonds, but there is an obvious problem with rad and bonds that has existed for years and has remained unaddressed.

Nienla

Rivius said:

Nienla said:

Bonds has been countered before and even used against us. It has legitimate counter play and said legitimate counter play has been used against us in the past. Additionally, a good chunk of the mechanics in Night function as double-edged swords and Bonds falls under that category since it can just as easily be used against us as well.

Be more specific then about the legitimate counterplay and what exactly is a double-edged sword in night. Note that I'm not saying we need to delete bonds, but there is an obvious problem with rad and bonds that has existed for years and has remained unaddressed.

I'm not really in the habit of giving counters away. I'm still playing a competitive game. Crek already listed the one that Kelly had a fair amount of success in doing. Look at previous logs. There's one big ability that every organization has available to them that can counter it with a small amount of risk and have a large impact. Bonds does not stop physical movement, only magical. That's the only other hint I'll give you.

Rushing us is the other big one. Yes, you're going to have to actually do this sometimes. If you do it properly, we can't escape from our own Bonds and you can use it against us right back by sitting in it. You guys are really iffy about rushing or getting a pyramid onto a break point unless we're outnumbered.

Demartel

I am confused at how Serenwilde sitting in a meld is turtling, but Glomdoring sitting in a bonded and brumetowered meld is not. In my time playing I have seen Serenwilde sitting, and believe me there is a lot of yelling on our own side about us just sitting and I have watched Glomdoring prep a kill room and just sit there, Heck, @Xenthos has gusted me across a whole area through his pits just to get me into that room.

This is turning into another of those "you do it, but we forget that we do it too" arguments that pretty much ends up with "no you suck" and some admin yelling at us.

Have at it boys, I will sit and eat my popcorn.

Synkarin

Rivius said:

Nienla said:

Bonds has been countered before and even used against us. It has legitimate counter play and said legitimate counter play has been used against us in the past. Additionally, a good chunk of the mechanics in Night function as double-edged swords and Bonds falls under that category since it can just as easily be used against us as well.

Be more specific then about the legitimate counterplay and what exactly is a double-edged sword in night. Note that I'm not saying we need to delete bonds, but there is an obvious problem with rad and bonds that has existed for years and has remained unaddressed.

Be more specific about why you think bonds is a 'legitimate balance issue' because the only argument you've given is that that phrase and a report about rad put up in 2010. I don't think it is (bonds or rad for that matter), and it has nothing to do with counterplays, it has to do with what it accomplishes exactly, which I've already stated. As pointed out, there is literally nothing that bonds does that can't be achieved by any group in the game through other methods.

Rivius

The report was mentioned because it had some good discussion going there about why it's an issue. Glomdoring can place down bonds and rad people into their room, but a radder on Serenwilde's side cannot rad you out of your room if you have bonds up. This means it's easier to pick people off in a stand-off for you, which then makes it easier for you to rush. And you don't risk anything with this setup. Kelly running in to tackle people out means Kelly walks alone into a room full of people and has to tackle against summon resistance and any other room effects set up for her. That's hardly an equal counter.

And I know how bonds works, Nienla. I'm not asking you to sell me some juicy trade secrets (lol). I am trying to get a better understanding of what your argument is.

Maligorn

Nienla said:

Rivius said:

Nienla said:

Bonds has been countered before and even used against us. It has legitimate counter play and said legitimate counter play has been used against us in the past. Additionally, a good chunk of the mechanics in Night function as double-edged swords and Bonds falls under that category since it can just as easily be used against us as well.

Be more specific then about the legitimate counterplay and what exactly is a double-edged sword in night. Note that I'm not saying we need to delete bonds, but there is an obvious problem with rad and bonds that has existed for years and has remained unaddressed.

I'm not really in the habit of giving counters away. I'm still playing a competitive game. Crek already listed the one that Kelly had a fair amount of success in doing. Look at previous logs. There's one big ability that every organization has available to them that can counter it with a small amount of risk and have a large impact. Bonds does not stop physical movement, only magical. That's the only other hint I'll give you.

Rushing us is the other big one. Yes, you're going to have to actually do this sometimes. If you do it properly, we can't escape from our own Bonds and you can use it against us right back by sitting in it. You guys are really iffy about rushing or getting a pyramid onto a break point unless we're outnumbered.

Hahahahahahahahahaha

You're not into giving counters out because there is no counter Nienla, I can't think of anything more laughable than that

Lerad

Demartel said:

I am confused at how Serenwilde sitting in a meld is turtling, but Glomdoring sitting in a bonded and brumetowered meld is not. In my time playing I have seen Serenwilde sitting, and believe me there is a lot of yelling on our own side about us just sitting and I have watched Glomdoring prep a kill room and just sit there, Heck, @Xenthos has gusted me across a whole area through his pits just to get me into that room.

This is turning into another of those "you do it, but we forget that we do it too" arguments that pretty much ends up with "no you suck" and some admin yelling at us.

Have at it boys, I will sit and eat my popcorn.

I'm not sure what you wanted us to do there, 'rush' the eth seren nexus? At least we don't stand around outside in Faethorn, waiting and watching specifically for people to start bleeding away before jumping back in the exact moment they do. Amusingly, I've had varying degrees of success and failure rushing into enemy melds before. Bonds, or the lack thereof (of rads, in otherwords), isn't really a consideration for whether I decide to. The presence of a competent Celestine/Nihilist/Ninja is usually my consideration, and I've rushed alone into prepped enemy rooms to enable beckon/pulls when I make the call not to bring my team into the enemy killbox. Other than the obvious advantage of beckons, it is simply a numbers game. Nowadays, igasho carry is changing the meta, but rad? Lol.

Rad has its strategical application, but is far weaker than its competitors. If bonds is overpowered because it stops rads... well, I would say there's a fundamental misunderstanding of what it can or cannot do. Rad is far better at rescuing people than bringing them into the killbox. Doesn't matter where the radded target goes, as long as it is 'elsewhere', when you're trying to save someone. It's a supercharged gust, for saving people at a distance. But it does matter where the target moves, when you're trying to summon them. Bonds works against rescues in that sense - rushing a bonds room, and threatening targets inside that room means they can't be rescued if they don't make it out on their own. Bonds comes with the risk that you trap your own melder. A timely Avurekhos escape has won many a fight, and there are few people who have that level of survivability nowadays. Now, bonds AFTER we rush has secured us many an Avurekhos kill, and wins, before. Starting out with bonds in the defending room, though, especially if there is no other adjacent room that is safe for the defending melder? That's a liability, right there.

The real winners in a teamfight is damage and melds. Pits and aeon, too, because they enable unconditional damage and prevent hinders, and there are rare times when pits + aeon actually beats out melds. But pits in a meld? That requires brute force and some balls to break. Good luck if it is an unbreakable room. Preventing such entrenchments is probably the most important thing in group combat. If they are already there, you're fucked, bonds or no bonds. I wasn't there for the revolt, so obviously I don't know what went down. But I'd be very surprised if Shu was leading and didn't charge the enemy room, especially if he had more people in his combat team. Obviously he can't charge the enemy team if they are outside the village, but I know he never lets the opposing team get a foothold if he has the resources to split them up before they get entrenched. That's what really gives Shuyin his wins. He makes the call to charge at the right time. I always charge too early, leaving my team, or too late, when the meld is up.

Lerad

Also, my rave: missed the revolt, but I made it in time for my post before Zvoltz came around, this time. Typing on a phone is hard, but I'll be damnd befet ANOTHER of these run from me. Whee.

Demartel

Lerad said:

Demartel said:

I am confused at how Serenwilde sitting in a meld is turtling, but Glomdoring sitting in a bonded and brumetowered meld is not. In my time playing I have seen Serenwilde sitting, and believe me there is a lot of yelling on our own side about us just sitting and I have watched Glomdoring prep a kill room and just sit there, Heck, @Xenthos has gusted me across a whole area through his pits just to get me into that room.

This is turning into another of those "you do it, but we forget that we do it too" arguments that pretty much ends up with "no you suck" and some admin yelling at us.

Have at it boys, I will sit and eat my popcorn.

I'm not sure what you wanted us to do there, 'rush' the eth seren nexus? At least we don't stand around outside in Faethorn, waiting and watching specifically for people to start bleeding away before jumping back in the exact moment they do. Amusingly, I've had varying degrees of success and failure rushing into enemy melds before. Bonds, or the lack thereof (of rads, in otherwords), isn't really a consideration for whether I decide to. The presence of a competent Celestine/Nihilist/Ninja is usually my consideration, and I've rushed alone into prepped enemy rooms to enable beckon/pulls when I make the call not to bring my team into the enemy killbox. Other than the obvious advantage of beckons, it is simply a numbers game. Nowadays, igasho carry is changing the meta, but rad? Lol.

I am not getting into the Bonds is OP or not argument. I was merely stating that saying Serenwilde turtles and Glomdoring does not is false. Also, waiting for people to start bleeding away is exactly what happened the other night. I was the only person left on Ethereal and Rancoura kept jumping in to... well, I don't know what she was jumping in to do, scent for people maybe? At any rate, no defenders and a couple minutes later GaudiGlom comes rushing in to kill Ladies and set fire to EthSeren. Now, again, I am not saying anything for or against this, I am just saying pot meet kettle. When I was referring to Glom turtling though I was referring to Gloms killboxes in Faethorn where people are wisped or radded or gusted into, or even better Glom turtling south of their Nexus so they can gust into pitted daughter stacks, or they could until I led all those daughters off to be killed and they had no turtle room anymore, or sitting one room away from us in Maeve Gardens with meld, bonds, pits, brumetower and radding people one by one, sending in Narynth to trigger us attacking her so you can start radding and hoping for a kill, I saw no rushing done there, oh wait... I did. We rushed. IN fact I think I even got killed in that room because I tried to Igasho Carry Crek out and ended up in a pit in a melded, bonded, brumetowered room I would have to check my log of that fight to be certain. I die a alot in your "we don't turtle" rooms trying to Igasho Carry someone out, so it is hard to keep track of which fight you were "not turtling" in that I died. In fact, of late we have done most of the rushing. Fighting in Etherglom with full discretionaries, 2 shrines hitting wrath plus invasion mobs, and daughters. As soon as we turn on anything like that Glom jumps out as fast as they can.

Anyways, I am turning this into something I did not mean to. My main point was really just spare me the our side is better than your side drivel. You turtle, we turtle. Everyone turtles. You rush, we rush. You don't rush, we don't rush. It's pretty easy to sit and throw stones, but it doesn't change facts. Now, I am obviously not around for every fight and I can't say what happens in every fight, but both sides are just as bad as the other for everything being thrown around here.

Shaddus

I'm really just not understanding why people don't just envoy bonds stopping magical transport into the room as well as out.

Lerad

If you're refering to two nights ago (more accurately, that'd be 30 hours ago), I probably called for that raid, because I'd just logged on. At least that one was the one where Celina showed up to help set a fire. I certainly didn't send Rancoura on to 'scout'. The 'my side is better than your side' is true on this, at the very least, because I'm still fairly salty from the fight a day before, where we were waiting on the seren/celest team sitting outside etherglom with equal numbers to us to come in... Except they literally jumped in only when a couple of mags that showed up to help went off after the lack of a fight. The same one that got me salty enough to go hit some prime mobs in Celest.

Incidentally, when I pulled my team out of that raid where Celina helped us set a fire, it was to go to Celestia as suggested by some people who were bored at the lack of a fight. Celestia, you know, that plane with stronger discretionaries and a lack of ethereal archways. "As soon as we hit anything like that Glom jumps out as fast as they can", lol.

Demartel

Lerad said:

If you're refering to two nights ago (more accurately, that'd be 30 hours ago), I probably called for that raid, because I'd just logged on. At least that one was the one where Celina showed up to help set a fire. I certainly didn't send Rancoura on to 'scout'. The 'my side is better than your side' is true on this, at the very least, because I'm still fairly salty from the fight a day before, where we were waiting on the seren/celest team sitting outside etherglom with equal numbers to us to come in... Except they literally jumped in only when a couple of mags that showed up to help went off after the lack of a fight. The same one that got me salty enough to go hit some prime mobs in Celest.

Incidentally, when I pulled my team out of that raid where Celina helped us set a fire, it was to go to Celestia as suggested by some people who were bored at the lack of a fight. Celestia, you know, that plane with stronger discretionaries and a lack of ethereal archways. "As soon as we hit anything like that Glom jumps out as fast as they can", lol.

You mean the one where we were waiting in Faethorn for you to come out and have an equal playing field, instead of watching you turtle in discretionary powers, bonds, brumetower, pits and a meld?

See, I can play this game too.

Anyways we didn't wait for Mag's to bleed off. We realised you were not going to come out and fight on fair ground and so we yelled at each other to just rush in until we finally rushed in. Incidentally, I am sure we lost that fight too after we rushed in, because for some reason Aeden led us deep into EthGlom for no real reason and you guys flanked us and wiped us or a good number of us out.

So again, spare me the righteous indignation.

Demartel

Before I bow out of this conversation I am just going to say I have 0 f-bombs to give about who turtles and who doesn't. Who rushes and who doesn't. Who kills quest mobs and who doesn't.


My only annoyance is when, and everyone has done this since I have started looking at the forums, people come and act like their side is a victim of actions their side would never do. Go ahead, say ORG does BAD things, because they do BAD things. Don't sit there and say your ORG does not though.

As an adult playing a game you should be honest enough to say "Yeah, ok we do this too". RP in the game, not the forums.

Twytch

The raids on EtherSeren and Celestia 6 hours ago was pretty fun, we definitely didn't "wait for the defenders to log out". I can easily date at least 3 raids the north has conducted when there were less than 5 defenders fron the south.

Demartel

Twytch said:

The raids on EtherSeren and Celestia 6 hours ago was pretty fun, we definitely didn't "wait for the defenders to log out". I can easily date at least 3 raids the north has conducted when there were less than 5 defenders fron the south.

6 hours ago I was at the lake sitting around a campfire, after an amazing Easter Dinner with friends, sipping on whiskey and coke. As I said, I am not around for every fight and obviously not every fight is due to "waiting for defenders to vanish" despite perception and people putting their own spin on reality.

So if there was a raid then, my Rave to get this thread back on track is: I was having more fun sitting around a campfire sipping on whiskey and coke than I would have sitting on the couch mashing keys, also Estarra messaged me about my pet and I am a happy camper about that too.

Lerad

We had no melder in that Ethglom fight. It was incidentally a fight that didn't have liveforest, because, you know, we had no melder. That was the same fight where the Celest/Seren group left after I started hitting prime mobs before I logged - and then the group eventually came back after to kill guards. Facts. 

It's a lot harder to take your "facts" at face value when you throw around words like "discretionaries, melds" when you know, there wasn't actually any melder.

Of course, we might be misunderstanding each other and be talking about totally different fights, even though I just gave the (almost exact) number of hours to the raids I was referring to, so I don't know how you can be making a mistake on the fights we're talking about, but whatever.

This is a digression, at any rate. The exact details of this raid and that raid, probably is boring everyone else except the two of us - but do remember that you were the one who first brought it up about Xenthos gusting - until that point (and my one short statement at the start of my first post on this topic to contest that) we were actually talking about bonds. I'm not sure that I'm the one who needs to "spare" the "indignant righteousness" when you're the one who first started pointing fingers.