Why? Seems like most in the South knowledge they have great skills without making grandiose claims about who best fortress rooms. It might be a case of "grass is greener" syndrome, but one side definitely appears to have a more severe strain of it.
Aeon IS a shut-down affliction. It takes a cure balance, therefore interfering with curing other afflictions, and therefore has "afflicting power". It hinders not only offense, but also ALL other kinds of curing, over and on top of normal cure balance costs - including vitals curing, which means it also translates to damage and mana pressure. It hinders offense of every kind except passives.
Curing aeon at the fastest possible time - literally the fastest possible - it replicates the effect of a 0.5s stun - you literally cannot do anything at all in the meantime. Not having truetime up (having it expire or something) will have it replicate a 1s stun. This is with zero lag or latency. Having aeon on demand is having access to one of the strongest shut-down affliction in the game - rivaled only by stun itself, or other advanced command denials like unconsciousness or concussion.
When you do absolutely NOTHING but spamming aeon, you're still effectively "stunning" the target again and again as well as taking up a cure balance upon curing the stun (which, incidentally, stun doesn't do).
And you say "having aeon in primary/secondary on demand generally comes in a price of afflicting power or other mechanic to shut people down"? Really? You're giving up afflicting power? You're giving up other mechanics to shut people down?
No, the idea is that on one hand, we have a bunch of people berating us about bonds and how we're downplaying its effectiveness and misrepresenting its costs, its limitations, its restrictions, its drawbacks, its risks and its qualities, and in the same breath we have a statement like "aeon's price is it costs us afflicting power and shut down potential".
I never said aeon wasn't strong! Both sides get aeon though. The only archetype which can get aeon in the north who doesn't have it in the south is warrior in Moon and Aeonics.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
Moondancers and Institute get aeon on demand. Shadowdancers get conditional aeon by giving up shadow twist progression.
Aerochems are the only chem/wood spec to get a chance at passive, defensive aeon upon getting hit. They also have passive asthma. They are also the only of the four mage classes to get aeon at all. On related specs: Hartstone druids get treetoss for instant sap - a variation of aeon.
Cantors and Symphonists get aeon on demand in Pfarewell and Skyzforzando or however the hell you spell that shit. Both are power abilities and targeted, and come with a stun as an added bonus. None of the other four bard specs get access to aeon in the primaries. Of all six guilds, only Wildarrane and Shadowbeat are entirely locked out of aeon due to lack of tarot.
Obviously, only aeonics warriors get access to targeted aeon.
Additionally, no other guild except those with access to aeonics get access to passive room wide aeon.
The only archetype which can get aeon in the north who doesn't have it in the south is warriors in Moon and Aeonics.
8-|
Right, I forgot that wane is in moon - so moon warriors get targeted aeon too, and by extension, night warriors get the same kind of conditional aeon as SDs. And I also forgot that Blacktalon also get the sap version of aeon. Just without treetoss. That should be more complete now.
1. Aeon is everywhere and it's a great affliction (if not one of the best). If we're gonna compare apples to steak, I would rather have aeon than bonds. Don't downplay aeon wtf.
2. What the north has over the south is comparatively easy access to blocking afflictions like asthma. back in my day, you did more than mash the aeon alias, you gemmed asthma too.
3. The meta has always been about fortresses. That meta is dumb but effective. Support my efforts to destroy fortressing.
4. Offense > Defense in PK IMO, but it doesn't make the defense skills comparatively terrible.
5. Shadows are a nonfactor. Anyone worth their salt will have basically an infinite number of them. I definitely did. I also had infinite power heyoooo.
6. I don't know about you but I will have to say that if you move Sidd or Celina to one of the terrible underpowered guilds like Spiritsingers, Researcher, or Celestine, they will do just fine. It might just be the player, not the skills, sometimes.
7. If you want to truly change the meta of the game, you will destroy the scent ability and make it harder to run away.
This conversation has taken a turn for the stupid if it's really become about how ahhhhmazing bonds is but aeon is "meh."
If you want to trade, I will literally give you my report to remove bonds and give Glomdoring aeon. Like right now. Just say the word. I'm 98% sure Glom will agree to it.
This conversation has taken a turn for the stupid if it's really become about how ahhhhmazing bonds is but aeon is "meh."
If you want to trade, I will literally give you my report to remove bonds and give Glomdoring aeon. Like right now. Just say the word. I'm 98% sure Glom will agree to it.
Technically, we already have aeon - and probably don't need more. Only Mag and Gaudi are locked out of aeon in all their primary/secondary skillsets. I'd rather delete aeon across the board, except that would mess up more things than we really want to do at the moment.
It really is, however, quite frustrating to be told that we're the ones with this unbeatable advantage in large group fights and fortress lockdowns because of one ability. Walking into an aquameld with enemy pits (you can pit aquamelds, right? I'm pretty sure you can) and an aeonfield isn't painful? Waning, fling aeon and timechant aeon are the only aeons that don't cost power. Well, and the aerochem defensive one, but we'll ignore that because of how unviable it is. And of those three power-less aeons, only fling is available to both sides. Unlimited (because powerless) targeted aeon in secondary skillsets shared with warrior archetypes is nothing to scoff at when you're pitted. Pit+judge is a time-tested and proven tactic for absolute wreckball - and walking into a "Southern side" prepared room is more painful?
And somehow, out of all these, bonds is the culprit that will solve all your problems? If we delete it and maybe brumetower as well for good measure, and it doesn't - what next? Can we turn to deleting aeon and sap next? Because I'd be down with that.
Woah, calm down. You guys took my comment way too far out of proportion. All I said was that aeon usually comes at the price of affliction stacking. I never said it was weak or tried to downplay it at all.
Edit: Also, for the record, I don't think I've said that bonds was OP. Sure, I've complained about it, but everyone complains about things like trueheal, full, all kinds of stuff. No reason to stress over it.
Edit*2: It really is easy to get caught up in 'grass is always greener' and to take what you have for granted. It's also really easy to quickly resent something you're exposed to a lot.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
I don't think Night Bonds are overpowered. Certainly strong, and it creates asymmetrical combat, but that's a good thing. Bonds may feel too strong when taken in context with other skills, such as pits and p5. Also arguably, it helps too much in sitting in a single room, as is necessary in many primary conflict systems, such as domoths or ascension, but that's more of a problem with those things than Bonds, imo.
I think much of the frustration comes with the unequal access to things such as Beckon, as well as some extra frustration with Night as a skillset, with Brumetower shutting down Druids primary strategy so effectively, and the seemingly unavoidable nature of twists.
On Aerochem, I don't think it's well designed either, would certainly support a redesign of it and other chemwoods as well.
If you don't like having Bonds/Aeon/Pits/Inferno/Belch/greywhispers/whatever, fragging move your character or roll an alt. Quit acting like you're locked into a skillset you swear isn't as good as the other sides' skills.
jesus, some of you people act like you're 12 and you're throwing a fit because the game isn't perfectly balanced. The game isn't supposed to be balanced. Life isn't balanced, and it sure in the heck ain't fair. Either roll with it, deal with it, or get over it, because your complaining is gonna solve two things- jack and crap.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Waning, fling aeon and timechant aeon are the only aeons that don't cost power. Well, and the aerochem defensive one, but we'll ignore that because of how unviable it is. And of those three power-less aeons, only fling is available to both sides.
Astrology aapek rays do exist, but only a third of the time. Or on people with bad luck for nativity.
As a Blacktalon, I had a harder time dealing with Brumetower when facing a Night user than a Hartstone would. I'm still not convinced, especially with how good allergies are, that Hartstone suffers at all from it.
Allergy them up, time your effects to headbutt (or beast gust so you can move immediately) them out when your demesne is about to proc. There you go, you countered brumetower AND bonds at the same time if they had it up. That's a valid, easy counter right there. Let's stop pretending that Druids are truly inhibited by Brumetower. As someone who played the class for ages, they're not. My countless spars with Sidd back when he was still Night (and before allergies existed) proved that a long time ago.
As for Bonds, counter play exists as multiple people have stated throughout the thread. Both the North and South have things that annoy the other side, but that's the concept behind asymmetrical balance. If you want perfect balance and a game that literally devolves into a contest that isn't about skill but rather how fast one person can click compared to the other, go play Starcraft.
I have to agree with Celina too. This is a large case of "grass is greener on the other side" syndrome along with people who don't want to have to take risk when they're fighting.
Edit: And I agree with @Shedrin. Of all the things to complain about with Night, it should be the fact that Shadow Twist perpetuates the whole 'unstoppable/uncurable' offense bit like Inquisition and other skills. They're dumb mechanics and they need to go down the road. Edit 2: However, I'm going to take a guess that some folks in the North don't want to complain about that because they know Inquisition follows the same logic.
As a Blacktalon, I had a harder time dealing with Brumetower when facing a Night user than a Hartstone would. I'm still not convinced, especially with how good allergies are, that Hartstone suffers at all from it.
Allergy them up, time your effects to headbutt (or beast gust so you can move immediately) them out when your demesne is about to proc. There you go, you countered brumetower AND bonds at the same time if they had it up. That's a valid, easy counter right there. Let's stop pretending that Druids are truly inhibited by Brumetower. As someone who played the class for ages, they're not. My countless spars with Sidd back when he was still Night (and before allergies existed) proved that a long time ago.
Night users can flow, so wrong. Again, check your facts: Flow doesn't work the same as it always has, to appease brumetower users actually. Blacktalon demesne and kit is just as equipped to fight brumetower (That is: not) as HS demesne.
EDIT: Also, tumble ground exists. Can night-flight be used in the trees?
She didn't, and that's the point. She presented a scenario for bypassing brume that depended on the target being potentially unable to climb down (to re-create a brume or move back into the brume'd room) due to allergies. Instead of spamming CLIMB DOWN, the wiccan could instead use flow to immediately move to the ground level of the druid's room. If that druid used headbutt or gust, that room would be the original brumed room, even! Nothing in the druid's demesne stops using flow instantly on demesne tick, dramatically complicating the presented setup to the point of unreasonableness. Flow didn't always work that way, tho. Back when Sidd was Night might have been before that point, and she was unsure on the mechanics of Headbutt last page, so it's worth pointing out this fact.
It's potentially possible to do something like time treelife 3-4 seconds before the demesne tick, beastgust across a briarwall into an adjacent room, have treelife pull them up, climb up, sap them immediately, have demesne tick, etc, etc - but that's a very easily prevented scenario from any number of angles. I've tried it and tested it in theoretical ideal conditions for the druid, and it doesn't move smoothly.
In any case, it's a far cry from the "valid, easy counter" put forwards such that the "[Hartstone don't] suffer at all" scenario presented doesn't make much sense. Pointing that out was the object of my post there, not to argue for any kind of nerf to any of the skills involved.
EDIT: Basically: "Again, this argument sounds compelling and would indeed be the case if physical movement summons flow, tumble, or even shields didn't exist at all. Alas, they do and you've completely forgotten about them in this argument."
That's just not true. You can flow while sprawled or prone from any regular source. So, while paralyzed or entangled, which is what the druid can do to try and keep you in one place.
I use it that way all the time. It's the thing that makes druids slippery, almost entirely on its own, because we can be sure to always be able to use it in a group combat scenario. IIRC, it can still be used to escape from pits.
It used to move the user to their current elevation level in the users room, but that meant you could flow into the trees of a brumed room. There wasn't really any benefit to doing this, as you still couldn't pull anyone up, and had to CLIMB DOWN into their room to get away if they used bonds. It was subsequently changed to always move you to the target's elevation, whatever it might be. Of course, then we figured out you could force command nature users to flow to a newbie buried down 20 levels to remove them from combat. So it was again changed so that you always go to the ground level no matter what. This isn't really a better solution for a few reasons, but it is the only option beyond going back to the first iteration (go to your own elevation in their room) without really offensive sideeffects.
Comments
Also, truetime isn't that strong.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Edit*2: It really is easy to get caught up in 'grass is always greener' and to take what you have for granted. It's also really easy to quickly resent something you're exposed to a lot.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
I don't think Night Bonds are overpowered. Certainly strong, and it creates asymmetrical combat, but that's a good thing. Bonds may feel too strong when taken in context with other skills, such as pits and p5. Also arguably, it helps too much in sitting in a single room, as is necessary in many primary conflict systems, such as domoths or ascension, but that's more of a problem with those things than Bonds, imo.
I think much of the frustration comes with the unequal access to things such as Beckon, as well as some extra frustration with Night as a skillset, with Brumetower shutting down Druids primary strategy so effectively, and the seemingly unavoidable nature of twists.
On Aerochem, I don't think it's well designed either, would certainly support a redesign of it and other chemwoods as well.
Yeah, the woodchems are so problematic all around. It's just not cool.
jesus, some of you people act like you're 12 and you're throwing a fit because the game isn't perfectly balanced. The game isn't supposed to be balanced. Life isn't balanced, and it sure in the heck ain't fair. Either roll with it, deal with it, or get over it, because your complaining is gonna solve two things- jack and crap.
Allergy them up, time your effects to headbutt (or beast gust so you can move immediately) them out when your demesne is about to proc. There you go, you countered brumetower AND bonds at the same time if they had it up. That's a valid, easy counter right there. Let's stop pretending that Druids are truly inhibited by Brumetower. As someone who played the class for ages, they're not. My countless spars with Sidd back when he was still Night (and before allergies existed) proved that a long time ago.
As for Bonds, counter play exists as multiple people have stated throughout the thread. Both the North and South have things that annoy the other side, but that's the concept behind asymmetrical balance. If you want perfect balance and a game that literally devolves into a contest that isn't about skill but rather how fast one person can click compared to the other, go play Starcraft.
I have to agree with Celina too. This is a large case of "grass is greener on the other side" syndrome along with people who don't want to have to take risk when they're fighting.
Edit: And I agree with @Shedrin. Of all the things to complain about with Night, it should be the fact that Shadow Twist perpetuates the whole 'unstoppable/uncurable' offense bit like Inquisition and other skills. They're dumb mechanics and they need to go down the road. Edit 2: However, I'm going to take a guess that some folks in the North don't want to complain about that because they know Inquisition follows the same logic.
It's potentially possible to do something like time treelife 3-4 seconds before the demesne tick, beastgust across a briarwall into an adjacent room, have treelife pull them up, climb up, sap them immediately, have demesne tick, etc, etc - but that's a very easily prevented scenario from any number of angles. I've tried it and tested it in theoretical ideal conditions for the druid, and it doesn't move smoothly.
It used to move the user to their current elevation level in the users room, but that meant you could flow into the trees of a brumed room. There wasn't really any benefit to doing this, as you still couldn't pull anyone up, and had to CLIMB DOWN into their room to get away if they used bonds. It was subsequently changed to always move you to the target's elevation, whatever it might be. Of course, then we figured out you could force command nature users to flow to a newbie buried down 20 levels to remove them from combat. So it was again changed so that you always go to the ground level no matter what. This isn't really a better solution for a few reasons, but it is the only option beyond going back to the first iteration (go to your own elevation in their room) without really offensive sideeffects.